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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror! Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. | ||
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Eps
Canada240 Posts
Issues with Thor/BFH - High Cost, both in Minerals/Gas - Means Terran cuts out on Marine-Tank and makes them very vulnerable to Roaches - It is literally a 2-Base All In Push, It has to hit before Z Tier-3 Tech - By the time it hits, Zerg should be on 3+ Base and should be able to mass a lot of Roaches+Mutas or any other unit - If Zerg holds out, it is over for the Terran player due to long build time of Thors - If Terran cuts Marines, Thors are susceptible to Magic Box - Infestors are still a potential counter to this, as they can FG and delay the push and can kill Hellions as FG outranges both units. Zergs have their options. People are talking about Thor/BFH as if it's the ultimate build for Terrans and there's no way to counter it. The build itself is a 2-base all in push. There's no room for recovery when you're counting heavily on Thors. Not to mention the production time it takes to hit a critical mass of Thors and the high cost of it. It should not hit before the Zerg before they massed up an army. | ||
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kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
You've accepted defeat even before trying. Zergs are back to whining mode again. | ||
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izgodlee
Canada133 Posts
On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote: Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
How do they nerf 1-1-1 without effecting ZvT? Well there wasn't a way really, but now that NP is out of the picture there is going to a need to change something about Terran otherwise Zerg will get steam rolled. | ||
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hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote: Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ Seriously? A zerg that doesn't have hive by 15 minutes is greedy now? | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On September 10 2011 12:14 Dommk wrote: I still think this is a set up for a Terran nerf. How do they nerf 1-1-1 without effecting ZvT? Well there wasn't a way really, but now that NP is out of the picture there is going to a need to change something about Terran otherwise Zerg will get steam rolled. Marines are getting nerfed, they don't even need to test that on the PTR. It's already decided. (Dreaming for a Marine nerf sind retail  ) | ||
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atavus
France60 Posts
On September 10 2011 12:16 hitpoint wrote: Seriously? A zerg that doesn't have hive by 15 minutes is greedy now? His point is that this could be a way too adapt in order to get fast T3 to counter mech. | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
Zergs have their options. People are talking about Thor/BFH as if it's the ultimate build for Terrans No one say that, it's just that the counter to Thor/BFH play are Broodlord or mass Neural Neural being deleted in the next patch, terran just have to push before T3 kick in, and it's game over. | ||
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Maetl
United States93 Posts
On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote: Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. | ||
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AznRyoga
29 Posts
As a protoss....are you kidding me? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10347 Posts
On September 10 2011 04:47 ZeromuS wrote: Can also NP archons which shred any zealots the protoss user might have. Yeah its less of a NP all the 6 food units you have and then I win kind of scenario. Because lets be honest, having to not make units to kill the collossi and instead NPin them and letting them kill themselves is kind of frustrating and not very interesting nor dynamic xD wait u can NP archons? aren't they still massive? On September 10 2011 12:10 Eps wrote: For those talking about ZvT Mech Thor/BFH Pushes. It was discussed a bit in page 358. Issues with Thor/BFH - High Cost, both in Minerals/Gas - Means Terran cuts out on Marine-Tank and makes them very vulnerable to Roaches - It is literally a 2-Base All In Push, It has to hit before Z Tier-3 Tech - By the time it hits, Zerg should be on 3+ Base and should be able to mass a lot of Roaches+Mutas or any other unit - If Zerg holds out, it is over for the Terran player due to long build time of Thors - If Terran cuts Marines, Thors are susceptible to Magic Box - Infestors are still a potential counter to this, as they can FG and delay the push and can kill Hellions as FG outranges both units. Zergs have their options. People are talking about Thor/BFH as if it's the ultimate build for Terrans and there's no way to counter it. The build itself is a 2-base all in push. There's no room for recovery when you're counting heavily on Thors. Not to mention the production time it takes to hit a critical mass of Thors and the high cost of it. It should not hit before the Zerg before they massed up an army. Do not quite agree with all of these, though in general, sure. For example, thor/hellion in maxed numbers will rape roaches, though otherwise, yes roaches will easily win also, though mutas can magic box, that's still 500/500 cost vs 300/200 about, though then again if he attacks with roach muta, your thors will hit the mutas instead of the roaches Also, it is quite a misconception that mech takes a long time to rebuild an army, at least compared to bio. A thor is a supply efficient, 6 food unit that builds in 60 seconds. Compare that to a marine which is 2 supply, and builds in 25 seconds. Really, only tanks are time and supply inefficient, at 3 supply per 45 seconds, though they are helpful for defense (like if the zerg has a huge army left over, a couple tanks can really help you defend and stay in the game). Now of course if the zerg attacks right after and you have 0 thors when you lose your army and only like 2 when he attacks, and it's super late game, then you will probably die even if you mass repair them. Good point about infestors, even thoguh you can keep your hellions behidn your thors the fungal will still be good vs thors and force him to split like marines (cool) ur hellions will eventually need to move in, and thus hellion vs fungal/ling micro could be interesting. And you can't just go mass thor, at least not the whole game, since hellions would greatly help your thors vs broodlords. I think the NP change is good, though NP might need to be modified to make up for its loss of the very valuable ability to take control of a massive unit. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On September 10 2011 11:51 RoboBob wrote: Honestly how often do you see NP used against massive units. I don't think I've seen it once in the past two MLGs. Its usually immortals or tanks that are NPed...both of which will still be able to be NPed. Compare that to a change like the Rax nerf, which literally impacts every single game. Or the Blue Flame nerf, which shuts down an entire playstyle in TvT. I think getting faster Ultras and cheaper Overseers more than outweighs the slight NP nerf. (and the fungal nerf is silly, such a slight change...yeah 1 marine per medivac will survive 2x fungal, big whoop) Well then u don't watch much sc2 or u don't play Protoss or Zerg. As a protoss player, i don't like the neural change. Neural was really goddam strong for sure and if Zerg had other better ways to deal with Colossi, then this nerf might be okay. But corruptors are still terrible and i don't think neural was imbalanced in ZvT at all. Blizzard once again takes a probably OP unit and gives it two huge nerfs. I think the infestor is the root of the problems in PvZ, but i don't think it is because of neural. It's got 3 different spells and they are all insanely good. But i don't think limiting their versatility is the right way to go. The infestor needs a more general change (like an energy change) to slightly nerf all of its spells instead of a massive nerf to one. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote: It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On September 10 2011 12:14 Dommk wrote: I still think this is a set up for a Terran nerf. How do they nerf 1-1-1 without effecting ZvT? Well there wasn't a way really, but now that NP is out of the picture there is going to a need to change something about Terran otherwise Zerg will get steam rolled. I really hope that is the case. As a protoss, I think they could have changed infestors a different way, but I don't mind that they won't be as strong. But this change is just bringing zerg down to the level of toss. Why would they leave terran at the top? Especially when that's where terran has always been? Giving terran these little tiny nerfs instead of big ones like KA nerf or NP nerf is just weird since terrans have had over 50% win rates for most of the game. Why can't they nerf them faster and see what happens when terrans have to struggle for a bit. | ||
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Maetl
United States93 Posts
On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote: Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? It takes awhile for those bases to kick in, which was sort of my point. Zerg needs to get their three bases up and running before they can think about switching into T3,and even that is a bit of a turtley transition. | ||
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
On September 10 2011 10:49 atavus wrote: Option for terran against colossi 1 viking 2 .................. Marauder. | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On September 10 2011 12:31 Maetl wrote: It takes awhile for those bases to kick in, which was sort of my point. Zerg needs to get their three bases up and running before they can think about switching into T3,and even that is a bit of a turtley transition. and other races can macro if they want similar to how zergs do. They dont have to accept being down a base. Players like bomber/mma/mvp dominate a lot of zergs because it's impossible to overwhelm them with units since they simply wont let you get your economy up perfectly. | ||
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OrChard
Hong Kong1119 Posts
You can control all of protoss aoe unit and roll them with zerglings. In the mid game,protoss always use colo+bg units/archon+bg units to give presure to zerg.But protoss was rolled by infestor ling. You can only counter infestor+ling with archon+colo,because you have 2 kind of aoe units and all of aoe untis cant being controlled. So protoss cant give any presure to zerg before having archon+colo.That gives zerg to outmacro protoss easily with infestor+ling in mid game. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
It should be a hive tech research at the very least or even if the infestor was a hive unit but we had something at T2 to compensate (lurkers!). | ||
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