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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 10 2011 11:11 RoKetha wrote:
NP nerf is stupid, pure Thor mech will be unkillable, Colossi too good and require 1.5x cost in useless corruptors to kill, blah blah blah incredibly obvious stuff.
What really bugs me is that so many players have this bizarre idea that they should be able to make High Templar/Ghosts and immediately win against infestors because they "counter" them. If a mechanic like that existed so strongly, it would be terrible for the game. In a spectator game, it makes sense for battles to be dynamic and have the potential to go either way based on who controls better. Plus there is nothing wrong with a race having a stable unit. Can you imagine the whining if Zerg got an equal tech unit that auto-killed every siege tank or archon on the field even if the other player was using them well? Why should other races get units that counter Zerg units so hard? Zerg is pretty helpless in the late-game in every matchup without infestors on the field, so making the "counters" to infestor super-strong against them will just destroy Zerg's late-game, which wasn't even often seen at a high level to begin with. It just removes many of the actual skill elements from the game and turns it into build order/army comp wars.
In Brood War, late-game caster and anti-caster wars (vessel vs templar/arbiter, vessel vs defiler + scourge, BC/vessel vs BC/vessel, etc.) all had the potential to go either way even though players would generally have almost the exact same composition against each other every time. That allowed the game to be dynamic, rather than a case of hard counters and 200/200 army clashes with one army retaining 100 supply more than the other.
you just told everyone why they nerf infestors ^.^, best anti everything caster ingame right now.
While the other races anti everything casters always had some units they don't affect(hts the high hp zerg units, ghosts mech units and high hp units (a queen outheals snipe energy wise, but i guess blizzard never imagined that you can snipe a whole zerg army xD) ), the zerg one hit em all (only the +9 ranged units stand a chance(but reducing the range on the casting trio is not possible)).
While being perfect the infestor needed more energy for what they do. Then they switched up skills, so the others needed more energy as well, while they reduced energy costs for infestors. (at that time they only were used in small numbers). Now mass infestor roll over the battle field and while its no problem that they whipe the floor with everything, the problem is that they have tons of energy left afterwards. So now all the casters are even again in terms of energy usage, atleast that what blizzard hopes with the fungal nerf.
The neural nerf is pretty much to make units viable again (bc, ms, thors, archon all the below range 9 super expensiv units) and to be honest, i saw alot of games against colossi were neural wasn't even researched and it still ended up bad for the toss. And if a few infestors can disable the whole toss army and make their siege weapons poke down everything it might be a bit to much. Or do you prefer that blink will get fungal immune again ?
Anyway i agree that this might be a bit to much, but something was needed and thats why it has to be tested and then adjusted. And you should be happy, since you seem to hate units that hardconter everything  .
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On September 10 2011 11:40 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +destiny would die to a lot of timing attacks if he didn't have 75 energy when his infestors came out That would cause a more fragile transition, but it's nothing in comparaison of deleting NP, which bring back old ZvP where zerg is just forced to mass corruptor, and leave TvZ Thor/BFH with no counter
actually with out NP affecting massive units then the best counter to thor/BFH will be ultras. but thors are actually pretty good against ultras especially if there in a choke point... u just have to manage to not let the thors get surrounded by the ultras and thors will tear into ultras.
but ya the NP change is more devastating then ppl think.
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This is the way I see it regarding np
right now infestor/ling is a problem -> many ppl are suggesting that hts are the solutions to infestors, and to some extent that is really true. Toss needs to go templar more often, I've seen tester do this, jyp.
However, the problem rises once the zerg can get a hint that toss is going templar tech they can easily switch into roaches. burrow roaches, w/ or w/out movement are a huge problem to deal with. Now this can be countered w/ 2 robo immortal (imo) or if you open stargate and make some voids. these plan isn't as good cause of the np on void or fungal on immortals. Not to mention extremely risky to any type of nydus play. Furthermore, zerg already has a 3rd at this point and because of the templar (chargelot) play, it makes it hard to expand and defend it proper. All sorts of problem with ling run bys and infested terrans.
Okay, say I do all these right and expanded, took my 3rd. There is the real possibility that zerg is now on hive tech w/ broods. This scenario makes it why going ht a real hard play, because in reality, while hts are really good against all zerg tier 2(muta, hydra, infestor). It in itself not very good against roaches and broods. (some ppl might say hts are amazing against broods, but at the same time w/out that many stalkers/void due to ling infestors, broods will be extremely brutal to play against)
I may actually be one of the ones who actually think the fungal damage nerf was not needed (against toss at least). Back when zergs were only fungaling, if the toss makes mass colossus it is still okay to counter the infestors because colossus does so much damage and you can focus back then. However with np this changes dramatically, and as zerg gets better at npings, it is hard to focus infestors down. (i'm only mid masters, so I don't think my control is that good. at the same time though, my opponent's np micro probably isn't perfect as well)
I mean I'm open to more ideas, but this is why I personally feel why the np nerf was justified.
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On September 10 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
Just a thought;
Protoss options against Infestor: 1-templar (feedback) and 2-phoenix (graviton, *breaks neural*)
Zerg options against col after patch: 1- corrupter 2- ...., ......, .......................
2- baneling bombs (shits all over force fields)
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they should change fungal like the rooting part of the spell don't affect massive unit.
I agree with this 100%. it never made sense to me that they would be rooted in the first place...
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On September 10 2011 11:46 izgodlee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
Just a thought;
Protoss options against Infestor: 1-templar (feedback) and 2-phoenix (graviton, *breaks neural*)
Zerg options against col after patch: 1- corrupter 2- ...., ......, ....................... 2- baneling bombs (shits all over force fields)
said cols, not ff :/
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On September 10 2011 10:49 atavus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
Just a thought;
Protoss options against Infestor: 1-templar (feedback) and 2-phoenix (graviton, *breaks neural*)
Zerg options against col after patch: 1- corrupter 2- ...., ......, ....................... Option for terran against colossi 1 viking 2 ..................
2- carpet emp + mass maraduer medivac (shits all over force field)
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actually with out NP affecting massive units then the best counter to thor/BFH will be ultras. but thors are actually pretty good against ultras especially if there in a choke point... u just have to manage to not let the thors get surrounded by the ultras and thors will tear into ultras.
Yeah thor can be pretty good against ultra, but they dont even need to, since they can just attack before the zerg get ultra, zerg just wont be able to defend it except maybe with 18 spine crawlers in a choke
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On September 10 2011 11:46 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 11:46 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
Just a thought;
Protoss options against Infestor: 1-templar (feedback) and 2-phoenix (graviton, *breaks neural*)
Zerg options against col after patch: 1- corrupter 2- ...., ......, ....................... 2- baneling bombs (shits all over force fields) said cols, not ff :/
im saying baneling bomb because the only reason roach hydra corrupter didnt work as well is because zerg face plant into forcefields, bane bombs however bypass this, read between the lines ...
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On September 10 2011 11:26 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 11:21 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
tbh, i dont think its fair to compare the KA nerf to the NP one... in the former the essential effect is to delay the spell, and to have fewer of them. the latter completely changes the role of the spell...I ONLY use neural on massive units... ARGH!
But it's not on the money spell. A big nerf to pathogen glands with NP untouched would probably put infestors in a worse position than just flat out removing NP.
It's not about that, Zerg is going to have an extremely hard time dealing with archons, colossus, thors, etc without NP affecting them. Against massive units was the only time I used NP as well. I am not sure what I am going to do about T and P's massive units now.
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On September 10 2011 11:48 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +
actually with out NP affecting massive units then the best counter to thor/BFH will be ultras. but thors are actually pretty good against ultras especially if there in a choke point... u just have to manage to not let the thors get surrounded by the ultras and thors will tear into ultras.
Yeah thor can be pretty good against ultra, but they dont even need to, since they can just attack before the zerg get ultra, zerg just wont be able to defend it except maybe with 18 spine crawlers in a choke
ROFL I like that idea... elegant...
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Honestly how often do you see NP used against massive units. I don't think I've seen it once in the past two MLGs. Its usually immortals or tanks that are NPed...both of which will still be able to be NPed.
Compare that to a change like the Rax nerf, which literally impacts every single game. Or the Blue Flame nerf, which shuts down an entire playstyle in TvT. I think getting faster Ultras and cheaper Overseers more than outweighs the slight NP nerf. (and the fungal nerf is silly, such a slight change...yeah 1 marine per medivac will survive 2x fungal, big whoop)
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As with most people, the NP nerf really bugs me. At this point, delete the skill and give something else to the infestor. It is completely useless IMO.
Yes, the infestor has 2 other great skills, but that doesn't mean you should render a skill pointless.
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On September 10 2011 11:40 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 11:02 atavus wrote:On September 10 2011 10:50 Arisen wrote:On September 10 2011 10:46 atavus wrote:On September 10 2011 10:23 Arisen wrote:On September 10 2011 08:50 iamke55 wrote:On September 10 2011 08:25 ReignFayth wrote:
every protoss on europe gets demolished by stephano and morrow currently, and he abuses infestor like destiny, except his mechanic is probably much better Fixed. While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds. Can we agree that ZvP before zergs really started using infestors, Zerg versus Protoss was stupid? Protoss won every game that went to 4 base and most that went to 3. NP gave zerg a way to deal with colossus that wasn't corrupter, now we won't have that. It's going to be mass colossus every game and it's going to go back to the same ZvP we had a few months ago; that is to say, massively in favor of the protoss. It hasn't been that long since infestors were discovered. Pull up any thread about zerg from the release to about 2 months ago and it was pretty much saying colossus based protoss armies were too strong and needed to be nerfed, while protoss players defended them. A month or so of infestor builds and the same build every protoss has been relying on since release still hasn't been nerfed and the build zergs have been having success for a month or so with the infestor builds, they're already hit SO hard with the nerf bat that it's rediculous. Wouldn't you be frustrated if you were in the zergs position, where you know ZvP is going back to the same old style that we've been getting raped in for almost a year? What I find kind of funny in your comment is that NP don't change since age, the spell everyone start to use was fungal to get some sweet AoE & prevent any micro from toss. The DoT actually become sufficient to kill a deathball without too much loss, now it's thanks to NP that all those change happened. Serouilsy get your history straight but stop making point that thanks NP for what fungal did just because you don't want a nerf on NP. Infestors weren't very good before the patch, so spending so much gas on them was stupid. There's a reason zergs didn't make many infestors pre patch. Of course I don't want the NP nerf; Roach/Corrupter is very, very in favor of protoss, I don't want the matchup to be horrible again? My point isn't about infestor very good before patch but all the damn hypocrisy about NP being the hyper spell against toss when te spell that has popularised infestor play is the 1.3 patch fungal. Zerg after that discover that NP & IT are also amazing & have many use Which they was denying by : "Infestor can't NP colossi they get kill before launching the spell" proven wrong "infestor NP are bad against mecha"proven wrong "IT are not cost effective for harass" proven wrong etc................ Now all zerg are like "what can we do if they take away our super in build kit that haven't change that much since release" For my part the NP nerf on massive is overkill but infestor can't stay like that. Making NP don't affect psyonic seems better cause it don't affect mecha. But that not enough, they should change fungal like the rooting part of the spell don't affect massive unit. There is 3 crowd control spell in the game Terran shell CC of the marauder don't afffect massive. Protoss : sentry FF destroyed by massive. zerg: infestor fungal ffect everything -_-". At least let a toss a frickin possibilty to micro the massive unit when fungaled. your point is wrong. Yes, zergs had a lot of the same utility in the infestor pre patch; but the fungal was bad. There's not point in making a bunch of infestors when their main utility (fungal) was shit. Do you assume that you know better than every zerg pre patch? It's not like you can just make whatever and survive till late game; you can't mass infestor if the fungal isn't going to be good at holding agression which the old infestor didn't.
Didn't I write that the main reson of overuse in the first place was 1.3 patch fungal ?
Read before flaming please.
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On September 10 2011 11:51 RoboBob wrote:
Honestly how often do you see NP used against massive units. I don't think I've seen it once in the past two MLGs. Its usually immortals or tanks that are NPed...both of which will still be able to be NPed.
Compare that to a change like the Rax nerf, which literally impacts every single game. Or the Blue Flame nerf, which shuts down an entire playstyle in TvT. I think getting faster Ultras and cheaper Overseers more than outweighs the slight NP nerf. (and the fungal nerf is silly, such a slight change...yeah 1 marine per medivac will survive 2x fungal, big whoop)
I see thors and archons NP'd A LOT. Colossi less, but it's important for the threat of NP to be there sometimes so they can't just blindly go colossi. Same thing with terran mech, few terrans made a lot of thors simply because NP existed. You're going to see it a lot more now. Thor/bfh timings will hit before hive and will no longer have a simple counter.
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On September 10 2011 11:51 Kurr wrote:
As with most people, the NP nerf really bugs me. At this point, delete the skill and give something else to the infestor. It is completely useless IMO.
Yes, the infestor has 2 other great skills, but that doesn't mean you should render a skill pointless.
Considering that I've seen games where NPing the immortal turned the tide of battle such as Idra vs MC , I really doubt it would be useless. And I've seen either Stephano or Nerchio, Nping a ghost and then EMPing the other ghosts so as to protect their own infestors from getting EMPed.
I really feel that Zergs are very narrow minded in what they think they can do.
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I think a better change to neural parasite would be
Neural Parasite no longer affects Psionic.
Lore wise it makes more sense. And balance wise, its not as severe as no longer affecting massive. If it doesn't work out, blizzard can always make the massive change later.
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On September 09 2011 18:19 Umpteen wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 09 2011 17:56 stratman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:45 Umpteen wrote:
Patch 1.5 changes just announced:
* All Protoss and Terran units are now Massive.
* Icon for Neural Parasite research replaced with a .gif of Raynor and Tassadar high-fiving.
* Infestors explode doing friendly splash damage after casting Fungal Growth.
* Infested Terrans now carry lighters instead of guns and sing a rousing chorus of "Give peace a chance".
Non-balance changes:
* Selecting 'Zerg' from the multiplayer screen now brings up a confirmation box.
On a more positive note, I'm about three leagues off sparing the APM to neural parasite anything anyway, so it's nice to be able to cross it off my to-do list early.
The zerg qq in this thread is a complete overreaction to a change to the test server but this was a pretty funny post. IMO there's no way blizzard will go through with the nerf to NP. Don't worry zergies, this is just for the PTR. They're testing it out to see how it looks. It's a dumb move, so it will look bad, so they won't keep the nerf. I thought it was sufficiently tongue-in-cheek not to be taken seriously  Honestly, I think 'balance' is only partly responsible for Zerg outrage here. It's more the removal of a toy when we have so few in the box to begin with. It's the removal of one of our very few long-range abilities. It's the neutering of Zerg's only 'forcing' unit in ZvP. I hope it doesn't go through, not because it'll make any difference to me right now, but because it means I have less to look forward to.
Yeah, I agree completely, this is a horrible change. I think the general consensus is Blizzard needs to balance by making gradual changes (like decreasing the time NP lasts on massive units by 15%, and if that's not enough later decrease it further). How they do it right now is nerfing options out of the game. Amulet completely removed instead of toned down, reaper speed nerfed to a point of uselessness, and now this.
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On September 10 2011 11:49 Ragnarok87 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 11:26 Resistentialism wrote:On September 10 2011 11:21 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
tbh, i dont think its fair to compare the KA nerf to the NP one... in the former the essential effect is to delay the spell, and to have fewer of them. the latter completely changes the role of the spell...I ONLY use neural on massive units... ARGH!
But it's not on the money spell. A big nerf to pathogen glands with NP untouched would probably put infestors in a worse position than just flat out removing NP. It's not about that, Zerg is going to have an extremely hard time dealing with archons, colossus, thors, etc without NP affecting them. Against massive units was the only time I used NP as well. I am not sure what I am going to do about T and P's massive units now.
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
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EPT
