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Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 361

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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne

There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
Protosnake
Profile Joined September 2011
France295 Posts
September 10 2011 02:24 GMT
#7201

Im pretty sure that this wont be the last patch ever. If it goes thru enjoy struggling to find counters to very strong strategies as have the protoss have been doing for last 6 months.....someones got to be on bottom guys.

I always thought it was funny that with KA nerf/removal the common response was "adapt" well, time for zerg to try to adapt


Struggling to find counters, like when many pro P player used to go blind Blink stalker colossus every game and got away with it since it had no counter ?

Even with the mass infestor fashion you dont see that many toss react and go for HT anyway, it's like they're not even trying.

KA was a totally unrelated change also, it was removed because the combination of instant warp-in + instant storm made it instant on demand AOE
ROOTFayth
Profile Joined January 2004
Canada3351 Posts
September 10 2011 02:25 GMT
#7202
YES protoss are fucking trying for fuck sake, it's just that templars are so fucking weak we need a good army BEFORE even thinking about warping templars, jesus fuck
Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
September 10 2011 02:26 GMT
#7203
On September 10 2011 11:21 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
tbh, i dont think its fair to compare the KA nerf to the NP one... in the former the essential effect is to delay the spell, and to have fewer of them. the latter completely changes the role of the spell...I ONLY use neural on massive units... ARGH!


But it's not on the money spell. A big nerf to pathogen glands with NP untouched would probably put infestors in a worse position than just flat out removing NP.
Falcor
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada894 Posts
September 10 2011 02:27 GMT
#7204
On September 10 2011 10:54 Serpico wrote:
It's funny people say the race that has to be the most reactive DOESNT scout. That's just stupid, the fact of the matter is blizzard made the infestor into a crutch that zerg had to get in a lot of situations. It's simply poor game design regardless of balance stats, the games just look ugly when you see such a small variety of compositions and infestors get leaned on as support over and over.


Yeah i mean its not like if protoss tech switched to ht/archon/zealot we could still go ling infestor and be fine....I think people are over simplifying the matchup. Its not spam infestors and win hell destiny whos dubbed the infestor by the koreans dont just go ling infestor when the protos reacts to his build.
PandaBlunt
Profile Joined September 2010
United States292 Posts
September 10 2011 02:27 GMT
#7205
I think that the NP change is a little unnecessary, I think it will force zergs back to roach/hydra corrupter/BL. I do think that NP is a very very strong spell, but it's fairly easy to counter, just focus fire the infestors with a few units. But, that's why this is the Public Test Realm.

I'd love to see what stats/pro input/decisions went into nerfing it though.
(╮°-°)╮┳━┳
Falcor
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada894 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-10 02:30:14
September 10 2011 02:29 GMT
#7206
On September 10 2011 11:24 Protosnake wrote:
Show nested quote +


KA was a totally unrelated change also, it was removed because the combination of instant warp-in + instant storm made it instant on demand AOE


that raped terran. it wasnt changed because of zerg
quistador
Profile Joined March 2011
United States43 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-10 02:30:30
September 10 2011 02:29 GMT
#7207
With NP nerf, I think the best thing to balance zerg is make adrenal glands (cracklings) T2. Give hydras either +1 armor starting, or A LITTLE more health.

Massing infestors happened for a reason. Zergs do not have as many options as the other races, as far as units are concerned, that's the only reason I'm suggesting these buffs... other than the fact that lings need to be a better option vs massed basic units, and hydras are just terrible.

Plus, the crackling being upgraded to T2 would allow it and it alone (no bane) to be able to contest mid-game marine on a more even plain. People complain about massing infestors, but that's just how that game has played out. How is this not comparable to massing marines?
Falcor
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada894 Posts
September 10 2011 02:31 GMT
#7208
On September 10 2011 11:29 quistador wrote:
Plus, the crackling being upgraded to T2 would allow it and it alone (no bane) to be able to contest mid-game marine on a more even plain. People complain about massing infestors, but that's just how that game has played out. How is this not comparable to massing marines?



because zerg isnt the massing race....oh wait.
_-NoMaN-_
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada250 Posts
September 10 2011 02:31 GMT
#7209
On September 10 2011 11:26 Resistentialism wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2011 11:21 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
tbh, i dont think its fair to compare the KA nerf to the NP one... in the former the essential effect is to delay the spell, and to have fewer of them. the latter completely changes the role of the spell...I ONLY use neural on massive units... ARGH!


But it's not on the money spell. A big nerf to pathogen glands with NP untouched would probably put infestors in a worse position than just flat out removing NP.


I would prefer no Path Glands by far to the neural nerf....BY FAAAAAAAR. srsly, when are you getting an infestor out EXACTLY in time not to die .... if so thats kind of a bad build imo...
ROOTFayth
Profile Joined January 2004
Canada3351 Posts
September 10 2011 02:33 GMT
#7210
destiny would die to a lot of timing attacks if he didn't have 75 energy when his infestors came out
intotheheart
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada33091 Posts
September 10 2011 02:34 GMT
#7211
I think that'd be alright since now FG actually has a purpose and defined role (or closer to it) rather than SPAMSPAMSPAM on everything. Also, we should probably look at most Massive units and acknowledge that they aren't always mobile (Colossi and Air being exceptions) enough to be a huge worry anyway.
kiss kiss fall in love
Ballistixz
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1269 Posts
September 10 2011 02:34 GMT
#7212
On September 10 2011 09:38 -orb- wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Sometimes I feel like while Blizzard has good intentions, they go about fixing certain issues in the most backwards and illogical way possible.

Let's examine briefly why PvZ is zerg favored at the moment:

-The queen mechanic allows zerg players to create/recreate drones much faster than protoss players can make probes. Due to this, protoss players are forced to be aggressive at all times to force units to be made instead of drones, or adapt a turlte-until-200-food-deathball strategy to rampage around and kill expansions. Neither option is ideal for a strategy game like starcraft. Being forced to be aggressive at all times to stay even in a game isn't realistic when obviously timings shift back and forth for who has the army advantage (and you don't want to be engaging at a disadvantage). Turtling until you get a 200/200 deathball does in some ways remind me of brood war TvP, but the way the siege tank works allowed terran players to at least defend multiple locations efficiently with just a couple units (the protoss equivalent back in bw was reavers.... too bad 1 colossus can't defend a base with cannons like a reaver could), and thus terrans could take expansions safely, whereas in sc2 if you try to turtle off 2 base to 200/200 it's going to be hard to go secure expansions and defend against counter-attacks because your army is useless when not all together in a deathball. This is a problem in the design of protoss units essentially.

-The infestor severely limits what options protosses have available. You should never be getting more than ~5 phoenixes because 1 single spell cast from out of your sight range so you can't even see it coming is enough to trap your entire air army of phoenixes (when running around trying to harass) and end the game for you. Protoss is already severely limited on the harass front. Really the only options are phoenixes (countered by infestors), dark templar (countered by infestors), storm drops (countered by infestors), and any other drops (which are all countered by infestors). So while it seems the only way for protoss to get an edge is to harass a zerg, literally every single harassment option is countered by infestors. This is clearly a problem... But here's why I don't understand Blizzard's logic. The reason infestors counter all of these options is the 100% root/snare on units, not the damage, or neural (obviously). Yet they nerf the damage and don't touch the root of fungal... Think about how much of a difference it would make if perhaps fungal slowed by 90% (like an ensnare) instead of completely rooting in place even when units are stacked on top of each other. In a game like SC2 where units stack up for many reasons, having spells that keep them glitchily stacked is not a good idea.

-Protoss players have a tough time scouting zergs. This is a problem that has dated back to the start of SC2, where they changed the zergling to be slightly faster than workers even when off creep and without the speed upgrade. This has never made any sense to me at all. What kept PvZ balanced in BW was that you could keep your probe alive for a very long time to actually see what a zerg is doing and prepare accordingly. Even though now zergs have creep to speed up their units even without the ling speed upgrade, Blizzard decided to just speed up zerglings in general anyways. What gives? If they changed this so lings are the same speed as probes off creep I honestly feel PvZ would improve a drastic amount. Forcing a protoss to either rush to robo tech or pump out 8+ sentries and halluc just to get scouting information (which you don't get in time for many all-ins) in the early game is silly and there's no reason for it.

-Securing/defending expansions is difficult in PvZ. This is mostly due to the fact that the zerg army is so much more mobile than the protoss army in most cases (unless it's like mass hydra vs mass blink stalker). This isn't such a big deal at the moment and can be fixed by things like wallins, but infested terrans from infestors cause huge problems as even if your entire army is in place you're still going to lose a lot when a bunch of infestors spam a shitton of ITs. And yet despite how stupid it is that you can lose an expansion with like 8 cannons to a couple infestors throwing down some energy, blizz isn't nerfing IT at all and is instead nerfing the damage on fungal and what units neural can target.

-Maps are often "zerg favored" in that the 3rd base is hard to secure and defend without a mobile army, and main attack paths/centers of maps are generally very wide open, preventing effective force field usage. Large, wide-open chokes at natural expansions also cause a lot of trouble for protosses taking a fast first expansion. Yet blizzard keeps making these trash maps, forcing them upon us on ladder, saying they do this because they want tournament/ladder map pools to be separate, and then using those outdated, terrible ladder maps for their own gigantic tournament (blizzcon). Not only does this make no sense, it's alarmingly hypocritical.

While in the long run limiting neural usage will help as carriers and motherships won't be 100% useless anymore (worse than useless since they'd always be fighting against you), it's going to cause major problems shifting the metagame back allowing terribad protosses that just mass up colossi and attack move to win against better zergs. I don't think this is the style anyone wants to watch in pro-games. People like to see dynamic, shifting games. Not a game where one person sits in their base doing nothing all game until they have a big enough army, then they attack move with no micro and the zerg loses and the game's over. This is as boring as a game of SC2 can essentially possibly be.

What I'd like to see but will probably never happen:

-Zergling speed (without upgrade and off creep) decreased slightly to be even with workers. (been hoping for this since day 1 of beta, guess it'll never happen and well keep coin-flipping in sc2 for a while until the expansions change some shit)
-Fungal root changed to a 90% decrease in speed (still prevents abilities like blink from being used, etc)
-Fungal damage removed (aka with these two changes replace fungal with ensnare), given instead to another caster with the expansion, or perhaps a similar damage spell would replace infested terrans? Not sure
-Infested Terran lifespan increased by 1.5x, dps decreased by 35%
-Colossus attack speed lowered by 50%, movement speed decreased by 30%, cliff-walk removed, damage increased enough so that 1 colossus will 1shot probes but attack extremely slowly (this will nerf colossi quite a bit, but at least allow them to 1-shot workers so you can do col drops in warp prisms similar to reaver drops in bw)

There are plenty more changes I'd do but those are the most important ones for PvZ. Who knows how well it would actually work, but I think it's pretty clear whatever blizzard is doing now isn't working
.


man orb im sorry, i love your stream but you have always been extremly biased when it comes to racial balance in this game. and i think the main reason for that is because your always comparing SC2 to brood war. you cant compare the 2 games because there entirely diffrent from each other.

the queen machanic honestly isnt broken. right now its designed to where you need to have alot of multitasking to keep up with it. missing injects at critical moments can and will loose you the game. having a queen sniped also has the same effect in most cases. the queen machanic actually flows with how the zerg race is. there a swarmy race. i mean idk what else you can expect from a machanic like that.


-Protoss players have a tough time scouting zergs.


and what makes you think zergs dont have a tough time scouting? against terran a zerg will never scout the inside of a terrans base with a drone after he gets a wall up unless the terran is careless and leaves a depot down. against toss its just as bad if the toss has a zealt and a stalker and sentry up the ramp.

this means that zerg pretty much has to use slow overlords which takes a insanely long time to cross a long map to scout a base. and if terran/toss is on top of there game then they can easily deny overlord scouting because they have T1 air atk units. so both toss and zerg are pretty bad in the scouting department (terran can just throw down a scan tho)


Securing/defending expansions is difficult in PvZ
.

i kinda agree with this about the infested terran part. very easy for a zerg to send 3-4 infestors on full energy and take out a expo pretty easily basically for free. but its just as hard for a zerg to secure or defend expansions. drops and warp prism play are actually extremly good against a zerg that is not going mutas. infestors are slow so unless u keep 1-2 infestors at each of your bases then you more then likely u will loose atleast one base if the player is doing multiple drops. (unless a zerg player has nydus worms at each base but worms are extremly gas heavy for that to be viable)


-Maps are often "zerg favored"
which maps are u talking about exactly? cuz lets be honest here, there are not that many "zerg favored" maps on ladder.


-Zergling
speed (without upgrade and off creep) decreased slightly to be even
with workers. (been hoping for this since day 1 of beta, guess it'll
never happen and well keep coin-flipping in sc2 for a while until the expansions change some shit)
-Fungal root changed to a 90% decrease in speed (still prevents abilities like blink from being used, etc)
-Fungal damage removed (aka
with these two changes replace fungal with ensnare), given instead to
another caster with the expansion, or perhaps a similar damage spell
would replace infested terrans? Not sure
-Infested Terran lifespan increased by 1.5x, dps decreased by 35%
-Colossus attack speed
lowered by 50%, movement speed decreased by 30%, cliff-walk removed,
damage increased enough so that 1 colossus will 1shot probes but attack extremely slowly (this will nerf colossi quite a bit, but at least allow them to 1-shot workers so you can do col drops in warp prisms similar to reaver drops in bw)


the speed nerf to zerglings will hurt tvz and make marines and 2 racks/bunker that much stronger. marines kiting lings with no speed is already bad as it is.

id rather fungal be changed to be more like plague rather then ensnare.

i agree with the DPS nerf of infested terrans, but to compensate they should be more beefy and be more of a fodder unit to help soak up damage like the first shots from siege tanks/colos.

that colo change is just making him into a reaver. again you are mixing BW with SC2 which is not a good thing.
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
September 10 2011 02:35 GMT
#7213
On September 10 2011 10:47 SpinmovE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2011 10:38 Protosnake wrote:
Fixed.

While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds.


I already responded that the best player do not always win.
But let me respond to this another way, let's admit ZvP is Z favored, like officialy.

Is it ok to "fix it" by promoting a stupid style of play which involve a build that can deal with anything and thus allow the P to not scout at all, like, PvZ month ago ?
NPing colossus is on the protoss fault, they both have 9 range, a colossus placed at the back of the army will force infestor to get sniped in melee range, in both case it punish bad micro

If anything should be done it's buffing archon/HT so we can reward a more reactive playstyle
Instead this nerf promote a blind, static playstyle which isnt punished by lack of micro and a-moving


The problem is that a lot of zergs current play style is basically the same thing. They don't scout and just mass up infestors which are great for harass, attacking, defending, stopping drops. They are the end all, be all unit for zerg, the other units are purely fucking throw away units until you make broodlords.

Either way one of the races will be playing a stupid style that can just straight mass up one unit that beats everything. It's dumb either way.

I have yet to see zergs do that in pro matches so don't come up with "but i saw it on x stream"
Guess what, x stream doesn't mean shit if isn't used as much in the actual pro matches and you know why? Cause there are simply to much holes on that lvl that you can abuse so your silly tactic actually works.
-_-
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States7081 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-10 02:43:18
September 10 2011 02:38 GMT
#7214
On September 10 2011 11:24 Protosnake wrote:
Show nested quote +

Im pretty sure that this wont be the last patch ever. If it goes thru enjoy struggling to find counters to very strong strategies as have the protoss have been doing for last 6 months.....someones got to be on bottom guys.

I always thought it was funny that with KA nerf/removal the common response was "adapt" well, time for zerg to try to adapt


Struggling to find counters, like when many pro P player used to go blind Blink stalker colossus every game and got away with it since it had no counter ?

Even with the mass infestor fashion you dont see that many toss react and go for HT anyway, it's like they're not even trying.

KA was a totally unrelated change also, it was removed because the combination of instant warp-in + instant storm made it instant on demand AOE


I've said this in a billion threads, but nobody seems to listen:

I'm pretty sure you have to open colli against infestors. Roach infestor is too strong of a composition against ht gw units. And you need aoe to deal with infested terran pushes, so you can't just go stalker immo.

Oh yeah, and you can't rely on getting storm out when you need it. If you got 1 colli out, it's not much but if that's when the zerg attacks you have some aoe. If you go temps, and zerg attacks (or expands and drones) before you have storm, you're done.

Basically, toss don't go colli b/c they aren't trying, it's because they think its the righ strat.
ROOTFayth
Profile Joined January 2004
Canada3351 Posts
September 10 2011 02:38 GMT
#7215
On September 10 2011 11:35 Assirra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2011 10:47 SpinmovE wrote:
On September 10 2011 10:38 Protosnake wrote:
Fixed.

While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds.


I already responded that the best player do not always win.
But let me respond to this another way, let's admit ZvP is Z favored, like officialy.

Is it ok to "fix it" by promoting a stupid style of play which involve a build that can deal with anything and thus allow the P to not scout at all, like, PvZ month ago ?
NPing colossus is on the protoss fault, they both have 9 range, a colossus placed at the back of the army will force infestor to get sniped in melee range, in both case it punish bad micro

If anything should be done it's buffing archon/HT so we can reward a more reactive playstyle
Instead this nerf promote a blind, static playstyle which isnt punished by lack of micro and a-moving


The problem is that a lot of zergs current play style is basically the same thing. They don't scout and just mass up infestors which are great for harass, attacking, defending, stopping drops. They are the end all, be all unit for zerg, the other units are purely fucking throw away units until you make broodlords.

Either way one of the races will be playing a stupid style that can just straight mass up one unit that beats everything. It's dumb either way.

I have yet to see zergs do that in pro matches so don't come up with "but i saw it on x stream"
Guess what, x stream doesn't mean shit if isn't used as much in the actual pro matches and you know why? Cause there are simply to much holes on that lvl that you can abuse so your silly tactic actually works.

stephano does that though, and he's currently at a fairly high level
Protosnake
Profile Joined September 2011
France295 Posts
September 10 2011 02:40 GMT
#7216
destiny would die to a lot of timing attacks if he didn't have 75 energy when his infestors came out


That would cause a more fragile transition, but it's nothing in comparaison of deleting NP, which bring back old ZvP where zerg is just forced to mass corruptor, and leave TvZ Thor/BFH with no counter
Arisen
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2382 Posts
September 10 2011 02:40 GMT
#7217
On September 10 2011 11:02 atavus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2011 10:50 Arisen wrote:
On September 10 2011 10:46 atavus wrote:
On September 10 2011 10:23 Arisen wrote:
On September 10 2011 08:50 iamke55 wrote:
On September 10 2011 08:25 ReignFayth wrote:
every protoss on europe gets demolished by stephano and morrow currently, and he abuses infestor like destiny, except his mechanic is probably much better

Fixed.

While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds.


Can we agree that ZvP before zergs really started using infestors, Zerg versus Protoss was stupid? Protoss won every game that went to 4 base and most that went to 3. NP gave zerg a way to deal with colossus that wasn't corrupter, now we won't have that. It's going to be mass colossus every game and it's going to go back to the same ZvP we had a few months ago; that is to say, massively in favor of the protoss.

It hasn't been that long since infestors were discovered. Pull up any thread about zerg from the release to about 2 months ago and it was pretty much saying colossus based protoss armies were too strong and needed to be nerfed, while protoss players defended them. A month or so of infestor builds and the same build every protoss has been relying on since release still hasn't been nerfed and the build zergs have been having success for a month or so with the infestor builds, they're already hit SO hard with the nerf bat that it's rediculous.

Wouldn't you be frustrated if you were in the zergs position, where you know ZvP is going back to the same old style that we've been getting raped in for almost a year?


What I find kind of funny in your comment is that NP don't change since age, the spell everyone start to use was fungal to get some sweet AoE & prevent any micro from toss.
The DoT actually become sufficient to kill a deathball without too much loss, now it's thanks to NP that all those change happened.
Serouilsy get your history straight but stop making point that thanks NP for what fungal did just because you don't want a nerf on NP.




Infestors weren't very good before the patch, so spending so much gas on them was stupid. There's a reason zergs didn't make many infestors pre patch.

Of course I don't want the NP nerf; Roach/Corrupter is very, very in favor of protoss, I don't want the matchup to be horrible again?



My point isn't about infestor very good before patch but all the damn hypocrisy about NP being the hyper spell against toss when te spell that has popularised infestor play is the 1.3 patch fungal.
Zerg after that discover that NP & IT are also amazing & have many use
Which they was denying by :
"Infestor can't NP colossi they get kill before launching the spell" proven wrong
"infestor NP are bad against mecha"proven wrong
"IT are not cost effective for harass" proven wrong
etc................

Now all zerg are like "what can we do if they take away our super in build kit that haven't change that much since release"
For my part the NP nerf on massive is overkill but infestor can't stay like that.
Making NP don't affect psyonic seems better cause it don't affect mecha.
But that not enough, they should change fungal like the rooting part of the spell don't affect massive unit.
There is 3 crowd control spell in the game
Terran shell CC of the marauder don't afffect massive.
Protoss : sentry FF destroyed by massive.
zerg: infestor fungal ffect everything -_-".

At least let a toss a frickin possibilty to micro the massive unit when fungaled.



your point is wrong. Yes, zergs had a lot of the same utility in the infestor pre patch; but the fungal was bad. There's not point in making a bunch of infestors when their main utility (fungal) was shit. Do you assume that you know better than every zerg pre patch? It's not like you can just make whatever and survive till late game; you can't mass infestor if the fungal isn't going to be good at holding agression which the old infestor didn't.

And every race has something that prevents micro, especially protoss. I don't want to hear that "I can't micro my shit once it's hit" because protoss have the SAME FUCKING THING in the FF; every had all your roaches trapped in a 1 hex square while stalkers eat them alive and you lose immediately? Pretty much every zerg has.

You're not going to find a whole lot of zergs with sympathy for Protoss's in a losing streak right now, because protoss have been doing the same 2 builds since launch and up until the infestor nerf, zergs only answer was to be greedy and hope the protoss didn't micro well, otherwise we lost. Can you not see why we don't want the matchup back there? Every protoss told every zerg to "stop whining, you're just playing it wrong" when they got rolled by colossus, now a month or so of time with the infestor being pretty good and every protoss loses their shit about how horrible their matchups are when they're still doing the same two things? There's the real hypocricy.
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"
tangwhat
Profile Joined May 2010
New Zealand446 Posts
September 10 2011 02:41 GMT
#7218
On September 10 2011 11:31 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2011 11:26 Resistentialism wrote:
On September 10 2011 11:21 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
tbh, i dont think its fair to compare the KA nerf to the NP one... in the former the essential effect is to delay the spell, and to have fewer of them. the latter completely changes the role of the spell...I ONLY use neural on massive units... ARGH!


But it's not on the money spell. A big nerf to pathogen glands with NP untouched would probably put infestors in a worse position than just flat out removing NP.


I would prefer no Path Glands by far to the neural nerf....BY FAAAAAAAR. srsly, when are you getting an infestor out EXACTLY in time not to die .... if so thats kind of a bad build imo...


That's actually the definition of a good build.
zeOllie
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Australia486 Posts
September 10 2011 02:41 GMT
#7219
Just saying, the only usefulness of NP now is to use it on tanks. Honestly, this is not whine or anything, but blizzard basically dumbed down NP to a useless skill. Which, TBH there are not many useless skills in the game. Maybe warp prism speed :p.

There is always the part of NP where you NP the other race's worker and make another army :p.
When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love.
tangwhat
Profile Joined May 2010
New Zealand446 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-10 02:44:33
September 10 2011 02:44 GMT
#7220
On September 10 2011 11:41 zeOllie wrote:
Just saying, the only usefulness of NP now is to use it on tanks. Honestly, this is not whine or anything, but blizzard basically dumbed down NP to a useless skill. Which, TBH there are not many useless skills in the game. Maybe warp prism speed :p.

There is always the part of NP where you NP the other race's worker and make another army :p.


Don't forget immortals mate. Also warp prism speed is really cool.
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