EPTPatch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 359
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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Neural is pretty much the only answer Zerg has traditionally had vs Colossus. Corruptor-Roach-Hydra into Broodlords was always protoss-favored. Zerg is going to still be able to use the Infestor for its other abilities so it might be okay in the end. Guess we'll have to wait and see, I still believe that the change is a bit radical. | ||
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Aloehart
United States16 Posts
Personally as I'm stuck with Terran (starter edition) my main concern is the 5 second increase on Rax. Rax is the central part of my wall in to keep out early scouts. I have micro issues (no external mouse) so I'm very vulnerable to worker harass. I may have to go depot depot rax rather than depot rax depot. Luckily I haven't really made use of the hellion blue flame since I have poor micro skills to make good use of it so the halved damage isn't too bad for me, though it may make a difference once i get a mouse. I never use raven so not concerned with it. Glad to see no more massive unit control for infestor. Might open up a good counter for the other races in Thor and Colossus. edit: @ zerg players mad about the neural change. I have watched a few dozen zerg matches against both terran thor's and protoss colossi and only 2 matches I watched did the zerg use the ability. Most went for fungal growth to stop the unit (and rest of the army) and keep it up until the unit is broken or they have time to retreat. | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On September 10 2011 10:26 Gegenschein wrote: List of rarely useful spells in SC2, at pro levels: -Neural parasite (infestor), -2500mm strike cannon (thor), -Seeker missile (raven) - maybe not anymore, -Mass recall (mothership), -Vortex (mothership). List of rarely useful spells in BW, at pro levels: -Ensnare (queen), -Infest command center (queen), -Restoration (medic), -Optic flare (medic), -Lock down (ghost), -Cloak (ghost), -EMP (science vessel), -Hallucination (high templar), -Feedback (dark archon), -Maelstrom (dark archon), -Mind control (dark archon), -Disruption web (corsair). I'm not all for that neural parasite nerf, all I'm saying is relax, guys, not all spells in the game have to be useful all the time. There's nothing I enjoy more in BW than seeing a pro taking a unit/spell seen in 0.1% of the games, and making it work. BW had more units. Much much better design for all races. Much better game design overall. Sure, those weren't very common, but the amount of viable strategies, skill ceiling, how the player really really mattered, balance, how the game "flowed" was just so so much better/higher than SC2 currently is. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On September 10 2011 10:26 Gegenschein wrote: List of rarely useful spells in SC2, at pro levels: -Neural parasite (infestor), -2500mm strike cannon (thor), -Seeker missile (raven) - maybe not anymore, -Mass recall (mothership), -Vortex (mothership). List of rarely useful spells in BW, at pro levels: -Ensnare (queen), -Infest command center (queen), -Restoration (medic), -Optic flare (medic), -Lock down (ghost), -Cloak (ghost), -EMP (science vessel), -Hallucination (high templar), -Feedback (dark archon), -Maelstrom (dark archon), -Mind control (dark archon), -Disruption web (corsair). I'm not all for that neural parasite nerf, all I'm saying is relax, guys, not all spells in the game have to be useful all the time. There's nothing I enjoy more in BW than seeing a pro taking a unit/spell seen in 0.1% of the games, and making it work. LOL EMP never used?!? Did you not watch BW. How the hell did you deal with Arbiters? But really about you post. BW had alot more abilities then SC2. More abilities means bigger chance that not all of them will get used. Also if you watch the latest PvZs NP is used quite often to NP Collosi. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
So for example, I feel like SC2 is sorely missing cleansing type units. They had these in WC3, basically units(or spells for that matter) which remove negative effects. So like instead of nerfing NP so it can't affect colossus, have sentries have a spell that would remove fungal/NP/phoenix lift/concussive shell effects from a unit. This is just an example, it could be the templar that had those spells but you get the idea. Adding another element or micro/counter to the counter would add more depth. The same would go if for example medivacs could cast an AOE spell that would remove fungal but take up all their energy. It would be a massive tradeoff, but could save your units. It is just to me something the game lacks, right now the counters to spell casters are all hoping your spell caster get to their spell caster first, and whoever does wins. Right now the exchange is -> infestor vs. templar. I got my fungal off before feedback I win. Or I got my feedbacks off before you fungaled I win. Or infestor v. death ball - I got my NP off on your colossus I win. You sniped my infestors before I could NP you win. It would be cool to see the exchange go more like -> infestor vs. templar. I got my fungal off on your templar or NP off but you cast "cleanse" with your sentry allowing your templar to cast again or taking the NP off your colossus and you then are able to feedback the infestor or snipe it. There just isn't much depth in the caster play right now, and I think the most impressive thing to me is seeing how pro players handle their caster units and micro them. Just a thought. | ||
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Gegenschein
Canada107 Posts
On September 10 2011 10:29 Shikyo wrote: I really wonder if that change is going to be in live. Neural is pretty much the only answer Zerg has traditionally had vs Colossus. Corruptor-Roach-Hydra into Broodlords was always protoss-favored. Zerg is going to still be able to use the Infestor for its other abilities so it might be okay in the end. Guess we'll have to wait and see, I still believe that the change is a bit radical. Maybe we don't watch the same games (I've found a thing called the GSL, it's pretty nice), but were I come from the traditional answer to colossi is corruptors. | ||
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anrimayu
United States875 Posts
On September 10 2011 10:26 Gegenschein wrote: List of rarely useful spells in SC2, at pro levels: -Neural parasite (infestor), -2500mm strike cannon (thor), -Seeker missile (raven) - maybe not anymore, -Mass recall (mothership), -Vortex (mothership). The reason pros don't use vortex and mass recalls is only because they don't get mothership. It gets hard countered by neural parasite, it's best not to anyway. Strike cannons were used until they changed the skill back to energy based from cooldown based. Blame its lack of use on the nerf/balance. With the possible change to neural parasite, it's going to be used even less. | ||
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Gegenschein
Canada107 Posts
On September 10 2011 10:31 GinDo wrote: LOL EMP never used?!? Did you not watch BW. How the hell did you deal with Arbiters? My bad, sorry. But you'll admit I do have a point. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 10 2011 10:22 Umpteen wrote: I can't help thinking we wouldn't be having these arguments if Zerg were able to do what it's supposed to do and actually mass units, and had a versatile core unit that wasn't a caster. The problem is that Blizzard completely misunderstood BW Zerg. They heard "swarm race, tons of units", and thought "well, let's give them infinite larvae". But that's totally not what Zerg was about in BW. In ZvT, for example, Zerg is usually like 30 supply behind in the midgame. Thing is, Zerg had some extremely cost-effective units in BW, because larvae-efficiency was a very real factor there. Zerglings were easily the most cost-effective early unit, and absolutely insane with adrenal glands. However, they cost a lot of larvae, so you couldn't just spam them constantly without investing a ton of money into extra hatches. In SC2, you can make infinity lings off 2 hatcheries, because you get tons and tons of larvae without really having to invest into your production. A Queen produces larvae 50% faster than a Hatchery, while costing half as much. Imagine if a Protoss could pay 75 minerals to morph a Gateway into Super Gateway, which would produce units 2,5x as fast. Well, that's what Zerg got in SC2. That's the reason you can't have good units. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On September 10 2011 10:32 Gegenschein wrote: Maybe we don't watch the same games (I've found a thing called the GSL, it's pretty nice), but were I come from the traditional answer to colossi is corruptors. Did you read my post? Try the second sentence. On September 10 2011 10:33 Gegenschein wrote: My bad, sorry. But you'll admit I do have a point. Most of those spells were still strong, the actual reason they were rarely used is that it's too APM-intensive especially with the BW interface. | ||
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ReaperX
Hong Kong1758 Posts
That needed to happen! ;D | ||
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_-NoMaN-_
Canada250 Posts
Protoss options against Infestor: 1-templar (feedback) and 2-phoenix (graviton, *breaks neural*) Zerg options against col after patch: 1- corrupter 2- ...., ......, ....................... | ||
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snexwang
Australia224 Posts
On September 10 2011 10:33 Dommk wrote: "My Thors got NP'd one too many times." David Kim always makes those posts explaining the patch changes after every patch. I'm more interested on that post than the patch it self | ||
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Gegenschein
Canada107 Posts
On September 10 2011 10:32 anrimayu wrote: The reason pros don't use vortex and mass recalls is only because they don't get mothership. It gets hard countered by neural parasite, it's best not to anyway. Strike cannons were used until they changed the skill back to energy based from cooldown based. Blame its lack of use on the nerf/balance. With the possible change to neural parasite, it's going to be used even less. Well, yeah... by definition, if a spell is not used, it's usually because it's not viable in most cases. I'm not being happy that those spells in particular are seldom used. But I feel it's entirely normal for some spells, or even units altogether, to be used in < 5% of the games. Edit: even 5% is pretty often. Make that, say, 1% : ) | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
Fixed. While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds. I already responded that the best player do not always win. But let me respond to this another way, let's admit ZvP is Z favored, like officialy. Is it ok to "fix it" by promoting a stupid style of play which involve a build that can deal with anything and thus allow the P to not scout at all, like, PvZ month ago ? NPing colossus is on the protoss fault, they both have 9 range, a colossus placed at the back of the army will force infestor to get sniped in melee range, in both case it punish bad micro If anything should be done it's buffing archon/HT so we can reward a more reactive playstyle Instead this nerf promote a blind, static playstyle which isnt punished by lack of micro and a-moving | ||
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anrimayu
United States875 Posts
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Gegenschein
Canada107 Posts
On September 10 2011 10:34 Shikyo wrote: Did you read my post? Try the second sentence. Most of those spells were still strong, the actual reason they were rarely used is that it's too APM-intensive especially with the BW interface. I beg to differ. It's not all a question of APM. Some units that don't require much APM at all are never used in BW. Would you say devourers take a lot of APM? Or phoenixes? Reaver drops, on the contrary, are crazily APM intensive, yet you see them quite often. If it's effective, a Korean pro will find a way to pull it off, don't you worry. | ||
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atavus
France60 Posts
On September 10 2011 10:23 Arisen wrote: Can we agree that ZvP before zergs really started using infestors, Zerg versus Protoss was stupid? Protoss won every game that went to 4 base and most that went to 3. NP gave zerg a way to deal with colossus that wasn't corrupter, now we won't have that. It's going to be mass colossus every game and it's going to go back to the same ZvP we had a few months ago; that is to say, massively in favor of the protoss. It hasn't been that long since infestors were discovered. Pull up any thread about zerg from the release to about 2 months ago and it was pretty much saying colossus based protoss armies were too strong and needed to be nerfed, while protoss players defended them. A month or so of infestor builds and the same build every protoss has been relying on since release still hasn't been nerfed and the build zergs have been having success for a month or so with the infestor builds, they're already hit SO hard with the nerf bat that it's rediculous. Wouldn't you be frustrated if you were in the zergs position, where you know ZvP is going back to the same old style that we've been getting raped in for almost a year? What I find kind of funny in your comment is that NP don't change since age, the spell everyone start to use was fungal to get some sweet AoE & prevent any micro from toss. The DoT actually become sufficient to kill a deathball without too much loss, now it's thanks to NP that all those change happened. Serouilsy get your history straight but stop making point that thanks NP for what fungal did just because you don't want a nerf on NP. | ||
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