EPTPatch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 357
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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Zidane
United States1686 Posts
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
so morrow in your opinion is THAT much better than puzzle? So i say that the better player does NOT always win, and you reply by asking me if Morrow is BETTER than puzzle ? Are you dense ? Also, Tod 2-0 Alicia in the last MLG in a PvP matchup, is protoss UP or OP as a result ? | ||
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sunman1g
United States334 Posts
On September 10 2011 08:50 iamke55 wrote: Fixed. While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds. I never felt I had to quote a post so much like this one. PERFECTLY well said +1 Nothing more to add. Everyone should read it. | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
Further more, to all the people saying that Destiny beating Puzzle is clear evidence of imbalance are completely wrong. If a better player uses an inferior strategy, then it is very likely they will lose, regardless of being better, and this is perfectly fine. I play Destiny style in all my matchups, and I dominate Protoss and Terran players who are significantly better than me when they refuse to make high templar and ghosts, and yet I LOSE PATHETICALLY to far inferior players who make extensive use of these units. Puzzle did the same thing. I watched those games, and he lost his games because he refused to use the correct strategy, and for no other reason. Its the same thing Idra does against Protoss, refusing to do anything but roach/hydra, proceeding to bet demolished by some inferior protoss player, then whining about imbalance. The problem is that he is refusing to use an effective strategy against what his opponent is doing, not imbalance. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On September 10 2011 09:34 Protosnake wrote: So i say that the better player does NOT always win, and you reply by asking me if Morrow is BETTER than puzzle ? Are you dense ? Also, Tod 2-0 Alicia in the last MLG in a PvP matchup, is protoss UP or OP as a result ? seriously you're gonna bring a mirror MU to talk about balance? I'm saying Puzzle is most likely a slightly better player than morrow and morrow went like 10-1 it's not just "the better player does not always win" in this case, it's more like the better player almost never wins | ||
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Deleted User 108965
1096 Posts
On September 10 2011 09:34 Protosnake wrote: So i say that the better player does NOT always win, and you reply by asking me if Morrow is BETTER than puzzle ? Are you dense ? Also, Tod 2-0 Alicia in the last MLG in a PvP matchup, is protoss UP or OP as a result ? theres a clear difference to morrow beating puzzle 10 out of 11 games to goody beating nestea 2-1... they arent really comparable | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
Let's examine briefly why PvZ is zerg favored at the moment: -The queen mechanic allows zerg players to create/recreate drones much faster than protoss players can make probes. Due to this, protoss players are forced to be aggressive at all times to force units to be made instead of drones, or adapt a turlte-until-200-food-deathball strategy to rampage around and kill expansions. Neither option is ideal for a strategy game like starcraft. Being forced to be aggressive at all times to stay even in a game isn't realistic when obviously timings shift back and forth for who has the army advantage (and you don't want to be engaging at a disadvantage). Turtling until you get a 200/200 deathball does in some ways remind me of brood war TvP, but the way the siege tank works allowed terran players to at least defend multiple locations efficiently with just a couple units (the protoss equivalent back in bw was reavers.... too bad 1 colossus can't defend a base with cannons like a reaver could), and thus terrans could take expansions safely, whereas in sc2 if you try to turtle off 2 base to 200/200 it's going to be hard to go secure expansions and defend against counter-attacks because your army is useless when not all together in a deathball. This is a problem in the design of protoss units essentially. -The infestor severely limits what options protosses have available. You should never be getting more than ~5 phoenixes because 1 single spell cast from out of your sight range so you can't even see it coming is enough to trap your entire air army of phoenixes (when running around trying to harass) and end the game for you. Protoss is already severely limited on the harass front. Really the only options are phoenixes (countered by infestors), dark templar (countered by infestors), storm drops (countered by infestors), and any other drops (which are all countered by infestors). So while it seems the only way for protoss to get an edge is to harass a zerg, literally every single harassment option is countered by infestors. This is clearly a problem... But here's why I don't understand Blizzard's logic. The reason infestors counter all of these options is the 100% root/snare on units, not the damage, or neural (obviously). Yet they nerf the damage and don't touch the root of fungal... Think about how much of a difference it would make if perhaps fungal slowed by 90% (like an ensnare) instead of completely rooting in place even when units are stacked on top of each other. In a game like SC2 where units stack up for many reasons, having spells that keep them glitchily stacked is not a good idea. -Protoss players have a tough time scouting zergs. This is a problem that has dated back to the start of SC2, where they changed the zergling to be slightly faster than workers even when off creep and without the speed upgrade. This has never made any sense to me at all. What kept PvZ balanced in BW was that you could keep your probe alive for a very long time to actually see what a zerg is doing and prepare accordingly. Even though now zergs have creep to speed up their units even without the ling speed upgrade, Blizzard decided to just speed up zerglings in general anyways. What gives? If they changed this so lings are the same speed as probes off creep I honestly feel PvZ would improve a drastic amount. Forcing a protoss to either rush to robo tech or pump out 8+ sentries and halluc just to get scouting information (which you don't get in time for many all-ins) in the early game is silly and there's no reason for it. -Securing/defending expansions is difficult in PvZ. This is mostly due to the fact that the zerg army is so much more mobile than the protoss army in most cases (unless it's like mass hydra vs mass blink stalker). This isn't such a big deal at the moment and can be fixed by things like wallins, but infested terrans from infestors cause huge problems as even if your entire army is in place you're still going to lose a lot when a bunch of infestors spam a shitton of ITs. And yet despite how stupid it is that you can lose an expansion with like 8 cannons to a couple infestors throwing down some energy, blizz isn't nerfing IT at all and is instead nerfing the damage on fungal and what units neural can target. -Maps are often "zerg favored" in that the 3rd base is hard to secure and defend without a mobile army, and main attack paths/centers of maps are generally very wide open, preventing effective force field usage. Large, wide-open chokes at natural expansions also cause a lot of trouble for protosses taking a fast first expansion. Yet blizzard keeps making these trash maps, forcing them upon us on ladder, saying they do this because they want tournament/ladder map pools to be separate, and then using those outdated, terrible ladder maps for their own gigantic tournament (blizzcon). Not only does this make no sense, it's alarmingly hypocritical. While in the long run limiting neural usage will help as carriers and motherships won't be 100% useless anymore (worse than useless since they'd always be fighting against you), it's going to cause major problems shifting the metagame back allowing terribad protosses that just mass up colossi and attack move to win against better zergs. I don't think this is the style anyone wants to watch in pro-games. People like to see dynamic, shifting games. Not a game where one person sits in their base doing nothing all game until they have a big enough army, then they attack move with no micro and the zerg loses and the game's over. This is as boring as a game of SC2 can essentially possibly be. What I'd like to see but will probably never happen: -Zergling speed (without upgrade and off creep) decreased slightly to be even with workers. (been hoping for this since day 1 of beta, guess it'll never happen and well keep coin-flipping in sc2 for a while until the expansions change some shit) -Fungal root changed to a 90% decrease in speed (still prevents abilities like blink from being used, etc) -Fungal damage removed (aka with these two changes replace fungal with ensnare), given instead to another caster with the expansion, or perhaps a similar damage spell would replace infested terrans? Not sure -Infested Terran lifespan increased by 1.5x, dps decreased by 35% -Colossus attack speed lowered by 50%, movement speed decreased by 30%, cliff-walk removed, damage increased enough so that 1 colossus will 1shot probes but attack extremely slowly (this will nerf colossi quite a bit, but at least allow them to 1-shot workers so you can do col drops in warp prisms similar to reaver drops in bw) There are plenty more changes I'd do but those are the most important ones for PvZ. Who knows how well it would actually work, but I think it's pretty clear whatever blizzard is doing now isn't working. | ||
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hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
On September 10 2011 09:29 ReignFayth wrote: ok well Z is viable even if you can't neural colossus/archon/mothership fungal + baneling drops does wonder what blizzard is trying to prevent I believe are the players that are using 20 infestors to defend/harass/counter every army composition the protoss can come up with it is meant to be a support unit like other spellcasters, you never see someone make 15 ghosts off 2 base, or 15 high templars off 2 base..... It's a nerf to zvt also. People are talking like this change is just for zvp, but terran mech is going to be so hard to stop after this patch. Especially when they add in banshees and ghosts. On September 10 2011 09:35 ReignFayth wrote: well honestly I don't know much about mech in TvZ, I don't play either race and from the TvZ I've watched I've never seen really mass thors You will now =( | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
seriously you're gonna bring a mirror MU to talk about balance? Jesus christ. No i fucking wont, I was obviously bringing a mirror where the worst player won to show the nonsense of your statement. Also i didnt watched the Morrow vs Puzzle game and i'm interested in seeing it, any link? | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On September 10 2011 08:50 iamke55 wrote: Fixed. While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds. Well said :o Still they probably could have gone around this another way, just make it cost more energy, decrease range etc. The ability feels kinda lame when you can't steal "big" units  | ||
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blubbdavid
Switzerland2412 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
Obviously fungal is a valuable anti-muta option that ZvZ direly needs, but no fungal on air would be so great for the non-mirrors I think | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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Eps
Canada240 Posts
I think people are forgetting forgetting how ridiculously effective Zerglings are against Thors. Once they get within range of Thors, you can watch as your Tanks just demolish your own Thors. You can't stop Tanks from firing, if you unsiege, the Zerglings will wreck everything due to lack of AOE. If you don't unsiege then the Tanks will destroy the Thors. This is a non-issue in ZvT. | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On September 10 2011 09:38 -orb- wrote: What I'd like to see but will probably never happen: -Zergling speed (without upgrade and off creep) decreased slightly to be even with workers. (been hoping for this since day 1 of beta, guess it'll never happen and well keep coin-flipping in sc2 for a while until the expansions change some shit) -Fungal root changed to a 90% decrease in speed (still prevents abilities like blink from being used, etc) -Fungal damage removed (aka with these two changes replace fungal with ensnare), given instead to another caster with the expansion, or perhaps a similar damage spell would replace infested terrans? Not sure -Infested Terran lifespan increased by 1.5x, dps decreased by 35% -Colossus attack speed lowered by 50%, movement speed decreased by 30%, cliff-walk removed, damage increased enough so that 1 colossus will 1shot probes but attack extremely slowly (this will nerf colossi quite a bit, but at least allow them to 1-shot workers so you can do col drops in warp prisms similar to reaver drops in bw) There are plenty more changes I'd do but those are the most important ones for PvZ. Who knows how well it would actually work, but I think it's pretty clear whatever blizzard is doing now isn't working. Zergling speed nerf change would decimate ZvT. Marines can already kite them so well that zerg struggles just to stay alive until speed comes up. Besides, this wouldn't even really help ZvP that much as most zergs open speedings against protoss anyway, and there isn't a whole lot of critical info to gain other than if zerg is opening speedlings, or hatch first, or pool hatch gas, which is already doable. The problem is scouting after speedlings come out, not before. | ||
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hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
On September 10 2011 09:49 Eps wrote: For those talking about ZvT Mech. When has mass Thors ever been an issue against Zergs though? They've always been a unit used against Mass Muta play to defend Tanks from getting Sniped. I think people are forgetting forgetting how ridiculously effective Zerglings are against Thors. Once they get within range of Thors, you can watch as your Tanks just demolish your own Thors. You can't stop Tanks from firing, if you unsiege, the Zerglings will wreck everything due to lack of AOE. If you don't unsiege then the Tanks will destroy the Thors. This is a non-issue in ZvT. Hellion/Thor is a very strong combo that people have been using for ever. You attack before hive, hellions kill lings and thors kill the rest. It's never been a huge issue because we always had NP. Roach/infestor (with np) was the counter. I don't see how we're supposed to counter it now. Roaches will still be the answer, but it's easy to just make a few more siege tanks than normal if you see roaches. | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
I think people are forgetting forgetting how ridiculously effective Zerglings are against Thors. Once they get within range of Thors, you can watch as your Tanks just demolish your own Thors. 3 letter allow the terran to dump his mineral excess and prevent any zerg from going zergling against mechplay : BFH Roaches are pretty bad against thor, let's not talk about muta, so it's pretty much Neural or outmacro your opponents | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
idra may rage alot and even overexaggerate at times, but if you actually try to understand to what he has to say then you will realize it makes sense. he is one of the best foreign players in the world after all so there is some truth and logic to what he says. he doesnt always just spew nonsense. i also have to agree that the ultra change does help ultras slightly, but it wont make them a viable unit especially with the immortal buff. they cost so much money and cost so much food but they get hard countered by so many things. even archons are a somwhat good counter to ultras. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind Fungal not rooting massive units in general, not just Ultralisks. | ||
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