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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc?
Like Goody beating Nestea ?
Exceptions come all the time, Destiny beating bomber probably happened because bomber didnt know him, and was surprised by his infestor play, which is, let's face it, extremely good
Huk have something i love as zerg, but hate as a player, outlined in last MLG is that he just doesnt scout. The game VS coca was like this, he go blind stalker colossus, expect roach hydra, get stomped because he have nothing to deal with mass infestor
This change basicly rewards this protoss stupid play, which involve no scouting and a army comp able to deal with everything
Increasing HT speed and making the archon immune to neural would reward smart play, by the fact that templar archive would completely shut down infestor play.
Also, at the moment there's no excuse for getting your colossus neuraled, this is 9 range vs 9 range, if you force the infestor to come to close range you can just snipe him
Last but not least, not being able to neural thor leave mech play with no mid game counter
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On September 10 2011 08:50 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 08:25 ReignFayth wrote:
every protoss on europe gets demolished by stephano and morrow currently, and he abuses infestor like destiny, except his mechanic is probably much better Fixed. While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds.
I don't think many zergs realize this, or if they do they just choose to ignore it. Destiny beating Puzzle? I mean that just screams something is wrong considering Destiny's play revolves around 1 unit, the infestor.
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On September 10 2011 08:37 izgodlee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 08:23 Staboteur wrote:
COLOSSSUSSSSSSSSSSSSSS D:
To be a billion percent fair, my control was far too shitty for me to ever actually successfully neural parasite a bunch of colossus without just losing all my shit, but I liked to think I at least had the option. Also, this (if it goes through) is likely to shift the metagame back to MOAR COLOSSUS at my level, which sucks total nuts. Well, back to sub-40% win vs protoss again, I guess!
This patch will suck for me, because tall things that shoot lasers out of their eyes fucking burn holes in my sphincter every time, but overall it'll be interesting to see how these potential changes (lol @ NP + immortal range buff) change ZvP. ZvP is clearly now in a bad place for Protoss (I mean, even -I- am above 50% wins!) and it'll be neat to see the matchup come back to a more watchable, less irritating state... assuming you like things that shoot lasers, of course. Sorry but I think the 30% win rate of top protoss PROS is more important to fix than your 40% win rate if this patch goes through.
While outside of Korea is relatively balanced at the pro level, the ~30% win rate by Protoss in Korea is quite revolting. If Korean plays says anything, it's that Korean Terran and Zerg players are far more superior in strategies and playstyle than their counterparts in the rest of the world. Something tells me the problem isn't with the Protoss players, as some of them are quite brilliant and innovative (MC in particular with his PvT Phoenix and Zealot/Archon play just in recent times). This is why I think Blizzard should look at the Korean scene holding at least a bit more weight than the rest of the world, which quite isn't at their level in strategic development (not to mention raw mechanics, micro, and skill).
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On September 10 2011 08:59 jstar wrote:
Don't people realize there's currently only 2 Protoss in Code S? 2 out of 32 players. Protoss desperately needs buffs.
theres 5 isnt there?
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On September 10 2011 08:50 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 08:25 ReignFayth wrote:
every protoss on europe gets demolished by stephano and morrow currently, and he abuses infestor like destiny, except his mechanic is probably much better Fixed. While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds.
I was going to make a post about basically this but you said it very well. I also recall a series of games between HuK and Morrow where I don't think HuK was able to take a single game, I'm not sure if that was practice or not but it was on his stream at the least.
I really feel as though people need to play the game with this change before making such drastic claims of it ruining zerg. PvZ is extremely hard to win right now and something needs to be changed, the slight nerf to fungals damage alone isn't enough. That's not to say this is necessarily the proper change but its only on the PTR, they need to test some sort of change and this is as good a place to start as any.
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you know it's funny when they nerfed fungals duration i was one of a few who was upset because the spell was always a control spell and not a damage spell.
but everyone thought yay DPS despite the most important DPS related stat being unchanged (number of marines surviving 2 fungals per medivac, has always been 2)
and now blizzard is turning it back into a control spell by making the damage even worse. while not returning our old duration. 
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On September 10 2011 08:59 jstar wrote:
Don't people realize there's currently only 2 Protoss in Code S? 2 out of 32 players. Protoss desperately needs buffs.
5, but yes I agree Protoss need buffs. The NP change is a nerf in zvt though, which already favors terran atm. I hope they will find some other way to make infestors worse vs toss without making them worse vs terran.
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On September 10 2011 08:52 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 08:37 Doko wrote:
I'll take slow reavers over colossus any day. Nothing id enjoy seeing more in starcraft than 2 scarabs making their way to a bioball. 2 seconds later all that remains is a giant pool of blood [stuff] Colossi may be uninteresting from a viewer standpoint, but they don't make you pick a certain strategy or die. The opponent still has several viable options.
With Neural nerfed, it almost requires Zergs to start dropping banelings or put out Corruptors again. I imagine that the 'new' ZvP midgame will be Roach/Corruptor/Infestor, transition into Broodlords. And actually, I'm okay with that.
BUT, Colossi do relegate entire techs nonviable, just as Reavers did. Zergling/Baneling/Hydras are nonviable because of it.
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On September 10 2011 08:53 Stiluz wrote:
Wait, I just realized the Archon is massive too. This patch just completely destroyed the Zerg metagame in both matchups, so we're now basically back to the hell that was the pre infestor change era. So now infestor play is completely unviable. Back to roach/hydra/corruptor then, which no one liked.
Infestor don't make fungal they only NP, we all know than Fungal & Infested terran are for the bronze league, do we ?
I'm sure they gonna nerf the feedback's spell of the HT, rendering the whole unit useless & thus being unable to use in any match up.
Welcome back to mass colossi.
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On September 10 2011 09:01 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Like Goody beating Nestea ? Exceptions come all the time, Destiny beating bomber probably happened because bomber didnt know him, and was surprised by his infestor play, which is, let's face it, extremely good Huk have something i love as zerg, but hate as a player, outlined in last MLG is that he just doesnt scout. The game VS coca was like this, he go blind stalker colossus, expect roach hydra, get stomped because he have nothing to deal with mass infestor This change basicly rewards this protoss stupid play, which involve no scouting and a army comp able to deal with everything Increasing HT speed and making the archon immune to neural would reward smart play, by the fact that templar archive would completely shut down infestor play. Also, at the moment there's no excuse for getting your colossus neuraled, this is 9 range vs 9 range, if you force the infestor to come to close range you can just snipe him Last but not least, not being able to neural thor leave mech play with no mid game counter
when did goody switch to protoss? o.o
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On September 10 2011 09:05 Ihpares wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 08:52 NicolBolas wrote:On September 10 2011 08:37 Doko wrote:
I'll take slow reavers over colossus any day. Nothing id enjoy seeing more in starcraft than 2 scarabs making their way to a bioball. 2 seconds later all that remains is a giant pool of blood [stuff] Colossi may be uninteresting from a viewer standpoint, but they don't make you pick a certain strategy or die. The opponent still has several viable options. With Neural nerfed, it almost requires Zergs to start dropping banelings or put out Corruptors again. I imagine that the 'new' ZvP midgame will be Roach/Corruptor/Infestor, transition into Broodlords. And actually, I'm okay with that. BUT, Colossi do relegate entire techs nonviable, just as Reavers did. Zergling/Baneling/Hydras are nonviable because of it.
gonna hold you to it... when the first colossi hits the field you promise not to build any of these units again?
Better yet how about a rule where once a colossi gets out the zerg has to GG!?
Seriously quite fucking whining like little bitches and get on the PTR and test the changes....
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On September 10 2011 09:02 Bandino wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 08:50 iamke55 wrote:On September 10 2011 08:25 ReignFayth wrote:
every protoss on europe gets demolished by stephano and morrow currently, and he abuses infestor like destiny, except his mechanic is probably much better Fixed. While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds. I don't think many zergs realize this, or if they do they just choose to ignore it. Destiny beating Puzzle? I mean that just screams something is wrong considering Destiny's play revolves around 1 unit, the infestor.
Not only that but the progamers and the semi-progamers are competitive in nature and are often head cases. Most of the time when a competitive person is doing really well they think its because theyve been improving massively. Maybe destiny for instance has been improving his game, but alot of his success has been strictly due to the state of Infestors.
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*shivers* at the thought the patch failed to realise the ridiculous DPS of marines...
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On September 10 2011 08:50 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 08:25 ReignFayth wrote:
every protoss on europe gets demolished by stephano and morrow currently, and he abuses infestor like destiny, except his mechanic is probably much better Fixed. While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds.
Well said. Personally I think JYP is brilliant, but it can be disheartening to watch him outplay someone for 99% of a match, then make a mistake for the wrong 1% and lose because of it. Obviously, a bit hyperbole, but that's the basic feeling.
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On September 10 2011 09:05 Ihpares wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 08:52 NicolBolas wrote:On September 10 2011 08:37 Doko wrote:
I'll take slow reavers over colossus any day. Nothing id enjoy seeing more in starcraft than 2 scarabs making their way to a bioball. 2 seconds later all that remains is a giant pool of blood [stuff] Colossi may be uninteresting from a viewer standpoint, but they don't make you pick a certain strategy or die. The opponent still has several viable options. BUT, Colossi do relegate entire techs nonviable, just as Reavers did. Zergling/Baneling/Hydras are nonviable because of it.
No, ling / bling drop / hydra is still viable, even against colossus.
You can force trades, you can bling drop their mineral line, or even sit back while only countering / roaming the map with lings and doing baneling drops while taking bases, teching to infestor / ultra / bl and sit back.
If one drop goes off you win. If not he has to prevent you bases, making him attack into you.
It's a really nice composition and difficult to face as protoss.
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On September 10 2011 09:04 PrinceXizor wrote:you know it's funny when they nerfed fungals duration i was one of a few who was upset because the spell was always a control spell and not a damage spell. but everyone thought yay DPS despite the most important DPS related stat being unchanged (number of marines surviving 2 fungals per medivac, has always been 2) and now blizzard is turning it back into a control spell by making the damage even worse. while not returning our old duration.
Do you also remember how 75% or so of the zergs on these forums complained and complained about fungal and called it a nerf? Kind of goes to show a) how fickle players are and b) how much people use the PTR
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Thinking about it there is no reason a maxed zerg should ever beat a maxed terran or toss yet with NP its very possible if not probable.
Hive tech is not shabby at all coupled with infestors and psycho lings its already pretty deadly WITHOUT neutralizing the other races high tier units.....
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neural change is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've seen from blizzard yet. Yeah infstor is a bit too good of a unit as is, but it's basicly the only thing actually keeping Z viable as a race. If they want to really nerf ifnestors, they need to buff zerg elsewhere to keep it viable, but they aren't doing that. They nerfed fungal with no compensation, but that was fine because it wasn't a huge nerf. But now they are doing a huge nerf, and still no compensation. The overseer buff while nice still in no way helps the actual Z army. And while the ultra buff is better than nothing, it still doesn't help the actual zerg army because honeslty, ultras are still useless and will die before getting to their targets, even if they are fungald.
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On September 10 2011 08:53 Stiluz wrote:
Wait, I just realized the Archon is massive too. This patch just completely destroyed the Zerg metagame in both matchups, so we're now basically back to the hell that was the pre infestor change era. So now infestor play is completely unviable. Back to roach/hydra/corruptor then, which no one liked.
Mech style was already imbalanced for terran with the mech/ghost play and now just became much more powerful. And, Zerg will have to rely on corruptors again, a unit Blizzard have admitted they're not happy with anyway. I don't even...
I'm glad I'm going on vacation for a while, and that school starts. Probably won't pick up SC2 again after this patch, nor buy the expansions or buy more tournament tickets.
yeah yeah yeah people started using infestors a lot because of fungal, not NP, they just soon realized NP was kind of overpowered
lings/banelings will still always be a lot better than roach/hydras/corruptors
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On September 10 2011 09:12 hunts wrote:
neural change is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've seen from blizzard yet. Yeah infstor is a bit too good of a unit as is, but it's basicly the only thing actually keeping Z viable as a race. If they want to really nerf ifnestors, they need to buff zerg elsewhere to keep it viable, but they aren't doing that. They nerfed fungal with no compensation, but that was fine because it wasn't a huge nerf. But now they are doing a huge nerf, and still no compensation. The overseer buff while nice still in no way helps the actual Z army. And while the ultra buff is better than nothing, it still doesn't help the actual zerg army because honeslty, ultras are still useless and will die before getting to their targets, even if they are fungald.
what I read:
"derp derp, blizzard is stupid, derp in derp gold, infestor too good derp BUT stealing other races units is the only way for zerg to win derp"
User was warned for this post
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EPT
