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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 10 2011 08:10 Philip2110 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 08:08 sagefreke wrote: •Deals 6 less damage to all units except armored which deals +4 damage compared to the fungal growth at launch
Double the dps, yes the total damage is the same but the dps isnt and thats what matters
The new fungal growth will deal 17% less DPS than before. The DPS is being nerfed this patch not just the damage.
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Well sky terran could be viable now vs zerg since NP made BC's useless.
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On September 10 2011 08:23 Staboteur wrote: COLOSSSUSSSSSSSSSSSSSS D:
To be a billion percent fair, my control was far too shitty for me to ever actually successfully neural parasite a bunch of colossus without just losing all my shit, but I liked to think I at least had the option. Also, this (if it goes through) is likely to shift the metagame back to MOAR COLOSSUS at my level, which sucks total nuts. Well, back to sub-40% win vs protoss again, I guess!
This patch will suck for me, because tall things that shoot lasers out of their eyes fucking burn holes in my sphincter every time, but overall it'll be interesting to see how these potential changes (lol @ NP + immortal range buff) change ZvP. ZvP is clearly now in a bad place for Protoss (I mean, even -I- am above 50% wins!) and it'll be neat to see the matchup come back to a more watchable, less irritating state... assuming you like things that shoot lasers, of course. A state where there are no things that shoot giant lasers would be even better, I know zerg hate colossus but so do protoss.
It's just a badly designed unit, especially the part where you need it because gateway units suck, and where air units can hit it. It makes the game a lot less interesting.
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On September 10 2011 08:23 Lomak wrote: At the risk of sounding like an asshole, I don't see PTR helping at all. The NA scene has very few players that are playing the game at the level needed to determine the strength of units / comps / builds. Then you jump over to the EU and realize that there's like 2 zergs that are playing the game on a professional level (Dimaga , Morrow) and morrow has not been performing as well as we would expect.
That's assuming the top level players even get on that PTR to show the developers what the changes REALLY do. Which is a stretch in and of itself.
Be that true or not, it doesn't even matter, because blizz judges by what they see on their PTR anyways. They may change stuff later based on what happens once the changes go through and the pros get ahold of em, but them happening or not is based on our testing.
So that's what we need to do.
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wth , broodlords now T.T!!! Why..
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On September 10 2011 07:20 Lomak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 07:16 Raid wrote:On September 10 2011 06:29 Lomak wrote:On September 10 2011 06:24 Raid wrote:On September 10 2011 06:03 Lomak wrote: I just don't understand how all the drastic changes are happening to the mediocre races. Yet terrans get 5 seconds here or 5 seconds there, all these small adjustments when they are arguably the best performing race in sc2 by FAR. Just pisses me off. Dude have you ever seen the terran history of nerfs. Being ignorant to your own race and saying terrans are the least nerfed race is just plain stupid. About every unit in the terran army has been nerfed since launch. If you don't believe me read the patch notes. Yea it HAS been nerfed since launch and for good reason , but they are never overly severe nerfs. Remember when infested terran was TAKEN OUT of the game and they gave infestors frenzy???? Those are the kind of changes they do to zerg. *5 seconds added to bunker build time* are the kind of changes they give to terran, and yea it's bullshit. I dunno dude the reaper was nerfed to crap pretty badly. Pretty much a unit that has no real purpose anymore except for maybe tvt scouting. It had that extra 5 second thing, the depot before rax, the speed on factory... Medivacs use to be much faster as well. Its not just timing windows blizzard has been nerfing. I don't blame you bunker changes were in almost every patch but probably 1 if thats what you mean by 5 second changes. I don't see what you want to nerf terran more I'm fine if they revert the price from 200/100 ghost back to 150/150 though its not that big a deal imo. The reaper was nerfed because blizzard realize there was absolutely nothing zerg units could do to defend against them. Reapers were kiting and killing roaches and queens for fucks sakes, of course that should change. We don't see anything near that sort of domination with infestors on the professional level. For the record I couldn't really care if they nerf terran / toss. What I really want from blizzard is a good hard look at all the zerg units / structures to evaluate just how shitty they are. Hydra, Nydus (expensive version of a pylon). Our upgrades, Overlord speed, our scouting capabilities. Blizzard really needs a good hard look at zerg because the race IMO is just pathetic. If only because of how stagnant and predictable it is. There is no versatility in a race that has so few units, and even fewer units that are worth a shit.
I was just proving you wrong on how ridiculously one sided your looking at this. I guess its useless trying to convince you that blizzard is not out to get zerg. I have to say, I really believe zergs are favored in the ZvP matchup. ZvT is balanced. I really just think protoss is the true troubled race/underpowered because of how stupid the collosi has been. They need to scrap that unit and compensate all their other units.
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why are people yelling for everyone to go test it on PTR. Newsflash, we already played the don't use infestor/NP patch, we played it live for 6 months when P Deathballs and 'Cruncher' style laughed at us.
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I'll take slow reavers over colossus any day. Nothing id enjoy seeing more in starcraft than 2 scarabs making their way to a bioball. 2 seconds later all that remains is a giant pool of blood
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On September 10 2011 08:23 Staboteur wrote: COLOSSSUSSSSSSSSSSSSSS D:
To be a billion percent fair, my control was far too shitty for me to ever actually successfully neural parasite a bunch of colossus without just losing all my shit, but I liked to think I at least had the option. Also, this (if it goes through) is likely to shift the metagame back to MOAR COLOSSUS at my level, which sucks total nuts. Well, back to sub-40% win vs protoss again, I guess!
This patch will suck for me, because tall things that shoot lasers out of their eyes fucking burn holes in my sphincter every time, but overall it'll be interesting to see how these potential changes (lol @ NP + immortal range buff) change ZvP. ZvP is clearly now in a bad place for Protoss (I mean, even -I- am above 50% wins!) and it'll be neat to see the matchup come back to a more watchable, less irritating state... assuming you like things that shoot lasers, of course.
Sorry but I think the 30% win rate of top protoss PROS is more important to fix than your 40% win rate if this patch goes through.
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On September 10 2011 08:36 crms wrote: why are people yelling for everyone to go test it on PTR. Newsflash, we already played the don't use infestor/NP patch, we played it live for 6 months when P Deathballs and 'Cruncher' style laughed at us.
Yeah, but blizz wont care till they see the zerg win rate get roflstomped on the ptr. If they did know this, then they wouldn't have added it to the PTR to begin with.
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Zealot Archon will actually counter Ling Infestor HURRAY
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I think infestor based Zerg play was by far the most entertaining of all current Zerg styles. Hydra, Corrupter, Roach just isn't a fun play style to watch and while Muta play can be interesting, I think Infestors are usually more interesting.
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On September 10 2011 08:34 Raid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 07:20 Lomak wrote:On September 10 2011 07:16 Raid wrote:On September 10 2011 06:29 Lomak wrote:On September 10 2011 06:24 Raid wrote:On September 10 2011 06:03 Lomak wrote: I just don't understand how all the drastic changes are happening to the mediocre races. Yet terrans get 5 seconds here or 5 seconds there, all these small adjustments when they are arguably the best performing race in sc2 by FAR. Just pisses me off. Dude have you ever seen the terran history of nerfs. Being ignorant to your own race and saying terrans are the least nerfed race is just plain stupid. About every unit in the terran army has been nerfed since launch. If you don't believe me read the patch notes. Yea it HAS been nerfed since launch and for good reason , but they are never overly severe nerfs. Remember when infested terran was TAKEN OUT of the game and they gave infestors frenzy???? Those are the kind of changes they do to zerg. *5 seconds added to bunker build time* are the kind of changes they give to terran, and yea it's bullshit. I dunno dude the reaper was nerfed to crap pretty badly. Pretty much a unit that has no real purpose anymore except for maybe tvt scouting. It had that extra 5 second thing, the depot before rax, the speed on factory... Medivacs use to be much faster as well. Its not just timing windows blizzard has been nerfing. I don't blame you bunker changes were in almost every patch but probably 1 if thats what you mean by 5 second changes. I don't see what you want to nerf terran more I'm fine if they revert the price from 200/100 ghost back to 150/150 though its not that big a deal imo. The reaper was nerfed because blizzard realize there was absolutely nothing zerg units could do to defend against them. Reapers were kiting and killing roaches and queens for fucks sakes, of course that should change. We don't see anything near that sort of domination with infestors on the professional level. For the record I couldn't really care if they nerf terran / toss. What I really want from blizzard is a good hard look at all the zerg units / structures to evaluate just how shitty they are. Hydra, Nydus (expensive version of a pylon). Our upgrades, Overlord speed, our scouting capabilities. Blizzard really needs a good hard look at zerg because the race IMO is just pathetic. If only because of how stagnant and predictable it is. There is no versatility in a race that has so few units, and even fewer units that are worth a shit. I was just proving you wrong on how ridiculously one sided your looking at this. I guess its useless trying to convince you that blizzard is not out to get zerg. I have to say, I really believe zergs are favored in the ZvP matchup. ZvT is balanced. I really just think protoss is the true troubled race/underpowered because of how stupid the collosi has been. They need to scrap that unit and compensate all their other units. I like the words you are typing. Hardly anyone can stand the colossus, toss players included, because it just doesn't reward micro at all. I can micro a colossus about as well as Huk, which is stupid. And the fact that it takes up the same role as the carrier is also a pain. Why are warp prisms just starting to catch on as toss? Because before the archon buff, toss was forced to make colossi. That meant vikings were made preemptively, which just so happen to counter drops, void rays, carriers, and motherships. One tech path effectively making another obsolete, in more ways than one.
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On September 10 2011 08:41 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 08:34 Raid wrote:On September 10 2011 07:20 Lomak wrote:On September 10 2011 07:16 Raid wrote:On September 10 2011 06:29 Lomak wrote:On September 10 2011 06:24 Raid wrote:On September 10 2011 06:03 Lomak wrote: I just don't understand how all the drastic changes are happening to the mediocre races. Yet terrans get 5 seconds here or 5 seconds there, all these small adjustments when they are arguably the best performing race in sc2 by FAR. Just pisses me off. Dude have you ever seen the terran history of nerfs. Being ignorant to your own race and saying terrans are the least nerfed race is just plain stupid. About every unit in the terran army has been nerfed since launch. If you don't believe me read the patch notes. Yea it HAS been nerfed since launch and for good reason , but they are never overly severe nerfs. Remember when infested terran was TAKEN OUT of the game and they gave infestors frenzy???? Those are the kind of changes they do to zerg. *5 seconds added to bunker build time* are the kind of changes they give to terran, and yea it's bullshit. I dunno dude the reaper was nerfed to crap pretty badly. Pretty much a unit that has no real purpose anymore except for maybe tvt scouting. It had that extra 5 second thing, the depot before rax, the speed on factory... Medivacs use to be much faster as well. Its not just timing windows blizzard has been nerfing. I don't blame you bunker changes were in almost every patch but probably 1 if thats what you mean by 5 second changes. I don't see what you want to nerf terran more I'm fine if they revert the price from 200/100 ghost back to 150/150 though its not that big a deal imo. The reaper was nerfed because blizzard realize there was absolutely nothing zerg units could do to defend against them. Reapers were kiting and killing roaches and queens for fucks sakes, of course that should change. We don't see anything near that sort of domination with infestors on the professional level. For the record I couldn't really care if they nerf terran / toss. What I really want from blizzard is a good hard look at all the zerg units / structures to evaluate just how shitty they are. Hydra, Nydus (expensive version of a pylon). Our upgrades, Overlord speed, our scouting capabilities. Blizzard really needs a good hard look at zerg because the race IMO is just pathetic. If only because of how stagnant and predictable it is. There is no versatility in a race that has so few units, and even fewer units that are worth a shit. I was just proving you wrong on how ridiculously one sided your looking at this. I guess its useless trying to convince you that blizzard is not out to get zerg. I have to say, I really believe zergs are favored in the ZvP matchup. ZvT is balanced. I really just think protoss is the true troubled race/underpowered because of how stupid the collosi has been. They need to scrap that unit and compensate all their other units. I like the words you are typing. Hardly anyone can stand the colossus, toss players included, because it just doesn't reward micro at all. I can micro a colossus about as well as Huk, which is stupid. And the fact that it takes up the same role as the carrier is also a pain. Why are warp prisms just starting to catch on as toss? Because before the archon buff, toss was forced to make colossi. That meant vikings were made preemptively, which just so happen to counter drops, void rays, carriers, and motherships. One tech path effectively making another obsolete, in more ways than one.
maybe colossus are so easy to micro because toss are so tired from microing sentries and gateway units all early game? I can 1a roach/lings as well as idra, i dont see your point.
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On September 10 2011 08:25 ReignFayth wrote: every protoss on europe gets demolished by stephano and morrow currently, and he abuses infestor like destiny, except his mechanic is probably much better Fixed.
While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds.
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On September 10 2011 08:37 Doko wrote: I'll take slow reavers over colossus any day. Nothing id enjoy seeing more in starcraft than 2 scarabs making their way to a bioball. 2 seconds later all that remains is a giant pool of blood
And that's exactly why Reavers should never appear in SC2.
In SC1, the mere threat of Reavers meant that no Terran could ever stick with Barracks units for any length of time. You get a couple to hurt the initial Zealot and Dragoon that attack the wall, but it's ultimately all about getting that first Tank with Siege out.
Reavers mean that Terrans must play Mech. And that is terrible game design: a single unit that makes an entire category of units utterly worthless. I'm not saying its imba, just like Colossi aren't imba. But they were detrimental to the game overall. It's why I tend to avoid watching TvP matches in SC1; I much prefer ZvT or PvZ.
People talk about how SC2 has too many "hard counters." But Reavers hard-countered the entire Barracks production line; nothing in SC2 comes close to that. At least with Colossi, your MMM will live for a while. And you can shoot them with Vikings, which you can get with just one Starport+Reactor. Bio-Terrans in SC1 can't do jack against Protoss, outside of early-game cheese.
Colossi may be uninteresting from a viewer standpoint, but they don't make you pick a certain strategy or die. The opponent still has several viable options.
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Wait, I just realized the Archon is massive too. This patch just completely destroyed the Zerg metagame in both matchups, so we're now basically back to the hell that was the pre infestor change era. So now infestor play is completely unviable. Back to roach/hydra/corruptor then, which no one liked.
Mech style was already imbalanced for terran with the mech/ghost play and now just became much more powerful. And, Zerg will have to rely on corruptors again, a unit Blizzard have admitted they're not happy with anyway. I don't even...
I'm glad I'm going on vacation for a while, and that school starts. Probably won't pick up SC2 again after this patch, nor buy the expansions or buy more tournament tickets.
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My colossus and archons cant be neural parasited. Fuck ya! Best god damn change EVER! Thank you Blizzard.
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On September 10 2011 08:36 crms wrote: why are people yelling for everyone to go test it on PTR. Newsflash, we already played the don't use infestor/NP patch, we played it live for 6 months when P Deathballs and 'Cruncher' style laughed at us. You don't need Neural to kill deathballs. You don't actually need Infestors at all, but they make it much easier for players with bad timing. The only thing you do need is 5 overlords full of banelings, and whatever ground army.
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Don't people realize there's currently only 2 Protoss in Code S? 2 out of 32 players. Protoss desperately needs buffs.
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