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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 10 2011 09:51 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 09:38 -orb- wrote:
What I'd like to see but will probably never happen:
-Zergling speed (without upgrade and off creep) decreased slightly to be even with workers. (been hoping for this since day 1 of beta, guess it'll never happen and well keep coin-flipping in sc2 for a while until the expansions change some shit)
-Fungal root changed to a 90% decrease in speed (still prevents abilities like blink from being used, etc)
-Fungal damage removed (aka with these two changes replace fungal with ensnare), given instead to another caster with the expansion, or perhaps a similar damage spell would replace infested terrans? Not sure
-Infested Terran lifespan increased by 1.5x, dps decreased by 35%
-Colossus attack speed lowered by 50%, movement speed decreased by 30%, cliff-walk removed, damage increased enough so that 1 colossus will 1shot probes but attack extremely slowly (this will nerf colossi quite a bit, but at least allow them to 1-shot workers so you can do col drops in warp prisms similar to reaver drops in bw)
There are plenty more changes I'd do but those are the most important ones for PvZ. Who knows how well it would actually work, but I think it's pretty clear whatever blizzard is doing now isn't working. Zergling speed nerf change would decimate ZvT. Marines can already kite them so well that zerg struggles just to stay alive until speed comes up. Besides, this wouldn't even really help ZvP that much as most zergs open speedings against protoss anyway, and there isn't a whole lot of critical info to gain other than if zerg is opening speedlings, or hatch first, or pool hatch gas, which is already doable. The problem is scouting after speedlings come out, not before.
Just because one change would alter a matchup doesn't mean you should just leave the game an imbalanced piece of shit. They can fix ZvT in other ways, or zergs can stop being so damn greedy going 15 hatch without even drone scouting every game.
Besides, if you think it wouldn't change PvZ that clearly shows you don't understand anything about this game at all and have never watched brood war. Zergling speed takes almost 2 minutes to finish, so even if every zerg was opening 14gas 14pool (which many would still go hatch first I'm sure and give you even more scouting time before they have speed), that's still 2 more minutes of scouting time you get, which at that stage of the game is absolutely invaluable.
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On September 10 2011 09:49 Eps wrote:
For those talking about ZvT Mech. When has mass Thors ever been an issue against Zergs though? They've always been a unit used against Mass Muta play to defend Tanks from getting Sniped.
I think people are forgetting forgetting how ridiculously effective Zerglings are against Thors. Once they get within range of Thors, you can watch as your Tanks just demolish your own Thors.
You can't stop Tanks from firing, if you unsiege, the Zerglings will wreck everything due to lack of AOE. If you don't unsiege then the Tanks will destroy the Thors.
This is a non-issue in ZvT.
when terran goes mass thors which they will do alot more now NP nerf, they dont go thors seige tank LMAO, they always go thors blue flame.
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On September 10 2011 10:02 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 09:51 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On September 10 2011 09:38 -orb- wrote:
What I'd like to see but will probably never happen:
-Zergling speed (without upgrade and off creep) decreased slightly to be even with workers. (been hoping for this since day 1 of beta, guess it'll never happen and well keep coin-flipping in sc2 for a while until the expansions change some shit)
-Fungal root changed to a 90% decrease in speed (still prevents abilities like blink from being used, etc)
-Fungal damage removed (aka with these two changes replace fungal with ensnare), given instead to another caster with the expansion, or perhaps a similar damage spell would replace infested terrans? Not sure
-Infested Terran lifespan increased by 1.5x, dps decreased by 35%
-Colossus attack speed lowered by 50%, movement speed decreased by 30%, cliff-walk removed, damage increased enough so that 1 colossus will 1shot probes but attack extremely slowly (this will nerf colossi quite a bit, but at least allow them to 1-shot workers so you can do col drops in warp prisms similar to reaver drops in bw)
There are plenty more changes I'd do but those are the most important ones for PvZ. Who knows how well it would actually work, but I think it's pretty clear whatever blizzard is doing now isn't working. Zergling speed nerf change would decimate ZvT. Marines can already kite them so well that zerg struggles just to stay alive until speed comes up. Besides, this wouldn't even really help ZvP that much as most zergs open speedings against protoss anyway, and there isn't a whole lot of critical info to gain other than if zerg is opening speedlings, or hatch first, or pool hatch gas, which is already doable. The problem is scouting after speedlings come out, not before. Just because one change would alter a matchup doesn't mean you should just leave the game an imbalanced piece of shit. They can fix ZvT in other ways, or zergs can stop being so damn greedy going 15 hatch without even drone scouting every game. Besides, if you think it wouldn't change PvZ that clearly shows you don't understand anything about this game at all and have never watched brood war. Zergling speed takes almost 2 minutes to finish, so even if every zerg was opening 14gas 14pool (which many would still go hatch first I'm sure and give you even more scouting time before they have speed), that's still 2 more minutes of scouting time you get, which at that stage of the game is absolutely invaluable.
Or we could, y'know, just nerf marines. They probably deserve it.
Protoss honestly just needs better defensive options. That is the most outstanding flaw with that race right now. Infestors were probably a problem, but I think that's more a symptom of the early game than actual imbalance.
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On September 10 2011 08:50 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 08:25 ReignFayth wrote:
every protoss on europe gets demolished by stephano and morrow currently, and he abuses infestor like destiny, except his mechanic is probably much better Fixed. While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds.
Uh, the reason for those scores is that the Protoss didn't react correctly when they saw infestors. They didn't make high templar and feedback the infestors, or spread their stalkers and blink and snipe the infestors, or make phoenixes to lift the infestors (thus cancelling the neural parasite).
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Hmmmm.... I think the biggest thing with the NP change is the mass thor shenanigans. Alternatively, it gives the colossus deathball utility against roach/ling/infestor.
As with almost all changes, the only way to know if it will be effective is trial & error.
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On September 10 2011 09:55 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 09:49 Eps wrote:
For those talking about ZvT Mech. When has mass Thors ever been an issue against Zergs though? They've always been a unit used against Mass Muta play to defend Tanks from getting Sniped.
I think people are forgetting forgetting how ridiculously effective Zerglings are against Thors. Once they get within range of Thors, you can watch as your Tanks just demolish your own Thors.
You can't stop Tanks from firing, if you unsiege, the Zerglings will wreck everything due to lack of AOE. If you don't unsiege then the Tanks will destroy the Thors.
This is a non-issue in ZvT. Hellion/Thor is a very strong combo that people have been using for ever. You attack before hive, hellions kill lings and thors kill the rest. It's never been a huge issue because we always had NP. Roach/infestor (with np) was the counter. I don't see how we're supposed to counter it now. Roaches will still be the answer, but it's easy to just make a few more siege tanks than normal if you see roaches.
Now BFH Hellion/Thor is a different composition than what I was picturing. I was thinking of the standard Marine-Tank with Thor support.
I still believe that Infestors will have a role in countering that composition due to how they outrange Hellion/Thors. The thing with Hellion/Thor compositions is that they're both mineral heavy. Hitting a critical mass (7+) of Thors should be a pretty late game composition due to their high cost. And if they're rushing it, they're skimping out on a lot of other units which opens them up to attacks.
When it does hit, I would think that Zergs would be on 3 bases with a strong army.
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Just because one change would alter a matchup doesn't mean you should just leave the game an imbalanced piece of shit. They can fix ZvT in other ways, or zergs can stop being so damn greedy going 15 hatch without even drone scouting every game.
Besides, if you think it wouldn't change PvZ that clearly shows you don't understand anything about this game at all and have never watched brood war. Zergling speed takes almost 2 minutes to finish, so even if every zerg was opening 14gas 14pool (which many would still go hatch first I'm sure and give you even more scouting time before they have speed), that's still 2 more minutes of scouting time you get, which at that stage of the game is absolutely invaluable.
So you come up in a thread asking for zergling speed nerf when there is absolutely no reason to do so, and when informed that it would destroy an entire matchup you say that you dont care
Then you proceed to ask zerg not to 15 hatch, when it's the only opening that doesnt put you behind against a T
I shouldnt have responded to this.
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How could THors/Hellions better than mass roaches anyway??? Can someone explain to me?
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On September 10 2011 10:08 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 09:55 hitpoint wrote:On September 10 2011 09:49 Eps wrote:
For those talking about ZvT Mech. When has mass Thors ever been an issue against Zergs though? They've always been a unit used against Mass Muta play to defend Tanks from getting Sniped.
I think people are forgetting forgetting how ridiculously effective Zerglings are against Thors. Once they get within range of Thors, you can watch as your Tanks just demolish your own Thors.
You can't stop Tanks from firing, if you unsiege, the Zerglings will wreck everything due to lack of AOE. If you don't unsiege then the Tanks will destroy the Thors.
This is a non-issue in ZvT. Hellion/Thor is a very strong combo that people have been using for ever. You attack before hive, hellions kill lings and thors kill the rest. It's never been a huge issue because we always had NP. Roach/infestor (with np) was the counter. I don't see how we're supposed to counter it now. Roaches will still be the answer, but it's easy to just make a few more siege tanks than normal if you see roaches. Now BFH Hellion/Thor is a different composition than what I was picturing. I was thinking of the standard Marine-Tank with Thor support. I still believe that Infestors will have a role in countering that composition due to how they outrange Hellion/Thors. The thing with Hellion/Thor compositions is that they're both mineral heavy. Hitting a critical mass (7+) of Thors should be a pretty late game composition due to their high cost. And if they're rushing it, they're skimping out on a lot of other units which opens them up to attacks. When it does hit, I would think that Zergs would be on 3 bases with a strong army.
I haven't seen that many games with hellion/thor, but would mass muta beat it if you just magic box? I mean if the thor is your only form of anti-air (spending all minerals on BFH with no marines right?), isn't that pretty susceptible to magic-box'd mutas? I guess terrans that would mix in ghosts would be a lot scarier since they could snipe the mutas tho
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On September 10 2011 10:10 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +
Just because one change would alter a matchup doesn't mean you should just leave the game an imbalanced piece of shit. They can fix ZvT in other ways, or zergs can stop being so damn greedy going 15 hatch without even drone scouting every game.
Besides, if you think it wouldn't change PvZ that clearly shows you don't understand anything about this game at all and have never watched brood war. Zergling speed takes almost 2 minutes to finish, so even if every zerg was opening 14gas 14pool (which many would still go hatch first I'm sure and give you even more scouting time before they have speed), that's still 2 more minutes of scouting time you get, which at that stage of the game is absolutely invaluable.
So you come up in a thread asking for zergling speed nerf when there is absolutely no reason to do so, and when informed that it would destroy an entire matchup you say that you dont care Then you proceed to ask zerg not to 15 hatch, when it's the only opening that doesnt put you behind against a T I shouldnt have responded to this.
You shouldn't respond to anything... you have seven total posts on these forums and all of them have been idiotic and full of rage. You're arguing with two players that play at a fairly high level (assuming that is the Fayth I'm thinking of). Orb is kind of an angry pothead type, but he knows starcraft and he even put a disclaimer in his post saying that he knows "this would never get changed but here's what [he] would do"
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You know I've been thinking of switching to terran, and now seems pretty ripe. My TvZ will be mass thor/hellion every game.
You know what would be a better balance change than completely ruining neural parasite? +1 range to feedback. BAM. Now ghosts vs templar micro is less terran favored and templar counter infestors even better.
On September 10 2011 10:13 tuho12345 wrote:
How could THors/Hellions better than mass roaches anyway??? Can someone explain to me? roaches are surprisingly bad against thors. especially with scv repair. Mutas can magic box thors, but really once you've got 4+ thors, magic box becomes worse and worse. And just a few marines (comparatively) can shut down a magic box pretty hard.
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On September 10 2011 10:06 Empirimancer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 08:50 iamke55 wrote:On September 10 2011 08:25 ReignFayth wrote:
every protoss on europe gets demolished by stephano and morrow currently, and he abuses infestor like destiny, except his mechanic is probably much better Fixed. While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds. Uh, the reason for those scores is that the Protoss didn't react correctly when they saw infestors. They didn't make high templar and feedback the infestors, or spread their stalkers and blink and snipe the infestors, or make phoenixes to lift the infestors (thus cancelling the neural parasite).
Puzzle made High Templar, he just managed to survive a IT base snipe because the HT Storm finished and he could Storm :o
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On September 10 2011 10:15 Lobotomist wrote:
You know I've been thinking of switching to terran, and now seems pretty ripe. My TvZ will be mass thor/hellion every game.
You know what would be a better balance change than completely ruining neural parasite? +1 range to feedback. BAM. Now ghosts vs templar micro is less terran favored and templar counter infestors even better.
Good luck with that composition lol. I have both toss and terran master level accts and I can assure you thor/helion blows the shit out of a donkey's ass.
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FWIW nearly every good NA toss I talk to complains about NP being imba.
I'm not entirely sure that PvZ or PvT are imbalanced, but they definitely feel difficult currently, and would require revolutionary insight to be balanced.
Thanks for the measured response, Time...this, coming from a guy who has GOOD PvZ! I have seen Time and White Ra continue to use colossus against infestors and I agree that part of it is about skill and micro. As a diamond toss, I am still working on all this so I don't claim that PvZ is imbalanced.
However, those arguing that the 9 range of neural made it ineffective against colossus aren't using a roach buffer. And those saying "just target the infestors" are ignoring the fact that a good Z is chain fungaling then neuraling. Targeting is difficult when your army is rooted.
HT are an answer. I use them. I am getting better with them. But as other toss have pointed out, they require teching in a non-robo direction. Why do toss tend to robo first? Well, I do it because I have to have detection. I would love to feel safe teching to templar with no robo. I don't feel that comfort. (And yes, part of the need for the robo is the threat of a two-base-Destiny-style-infested-Terran push.
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Thor hellion is really a one shot wonder.
IF you look at almost all pro games featuring the composition there is one big thor hellion push. If held, the player is pretty dead. If not held...
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On September 10 2011 10:14 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 10:08 Eps wrote:On September 10 2011 09:55 hitpoint wrote:On September 10 2011 09:49 Eps wrote:
For those talking about ZvT Mech. When has mass Thors ever been an issue against Zergs though? They've always been a unit used against Mass Muta play to defend Tanks from getting Sniped.
I think people are forgetting forgetting how ridiculously effective Zerglings are against Thors. Once they get within range of Thors, you can watch as your Tanks just demolish your own Thors.
You can't stop Tanks from firing, if you unsiege, the Zerglings will wreck everything due to lack of AOE. If you don't unsiege then the Tanks will destroy the Thors.
This is a non-issue in ZvT. Hellion/Thor is a very strong combo that people have been using for ever. You attack before hive, hellions kill lings and thors kill the rest. It's never been a huge issue because we always had NP. Roach/infestor (with np) was the counter. I don't see how we're supposed to counter it now. Roaches will still be the answer, but it's easy to just make a few more siege tanks than normal if you see roaches. Now BFH Hellion/Thor is a different composition than what I was picturing. I was thinking of the standard Marine-Tank with Thor support. I still believe that Infestors will have a role in countering that composition due to how they outrange Hellion/Thors. The thing with Hellion/Thor compositions is that they're both mineral heavy. Hitting a critical mass (7+) of Thors should be a pretty late game composition due to their high cost. And if they're rushing it, they're skimping out on a lot of other units which opens them up to attacks. When it does hit, I would think that Zergs would be on 3 bases with a strong army. I haven't seen that many games with hellion/thor, but would mass muta beat it if you just magic box? I mean if the thor is your only form of anti-air (spending all minerals on BFH with no marines right?), isn't that pretty susceptible to magic-box'd mutas? I guess terrans that would mix in ghosts would be a lot scarier since they could snipe the mutas tho
Mass muta works, but it's not ideal. It isn't cost effective, and it can be countered really easily if the terran sees it coming. Mixing in marines or a few ghosts makes it very hard to use. Not to mention terran bring SCV's with this push to mass repair, so turrets might work also. I'd rather take my chances with mass roach tbh, but I've seen pros use an overwhelming number of mutas before.
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I can't help thinking we wouldn't be having these arguments if Zerg were able to do what it's supposed to do and actually mass units, and had a versatile core unit that wasn't a caster.
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On September 10 2011 08:50 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 08:25 ReignFayth wrote:
every protoss on europe gets demolished by stephano and morrow currently, and he abuses infestor like destiny, except his mechanic is probably much better Fixed. While I understand the frustration Zergs must feel at having their race nerfed, there is absolutely no way a balanced matchup can consistently produce results like VTgiX 3-2 HuK, Strifecro 2-1 JYP, MorroW 10-1 Puzzle or w/e the final score was, Destiny 3-1 Puzzle, Destiny 2-0 STAce. You literally never hear about lower tier Protoss players beating world class Zergs. Wouldn't you be asking for drastic balance changes if you saw results like Attero beating Losira, Deezer beating Nestea, etc? Hell, many Zergs were even preemptively claiming that if Inca took any games off of Nestea in the code S final it would be proof of Protoss being too strong, and the skill gap there is probably about 1% as large as the skill gap between Destiny and Puzzle, for example. Yes the NP nerf sounds drastic on paper, but really, when a matchup is in this state (and has been ever since April), it's not gonna be fixed by changing the build time of random stuff by 5 seconds.
Can we agree that ZvP before zergs really started using infestors, Zerg versus Protoss was stupid? Protoss won every game that went to 4 base and most that went to 3. NP gave zerg a way to deal with colossus that wasn't corrupter, now we won't have that. It's going to be mass colossus every game and it's going to go back to the same ZvP we had a few months ago; that is to say, massively in favor of the protoss.
It hasn't been that long since infestors were discovered. Pull up any thread about zerg from the release to about 2 months ago and it was pretty much saying colossus based protoss armies were too strong and needed to be nerfed, while protoss players defended them. A month or so of infestor builds and the same build every protoss has been relying on since release still hasn't been nerfed and the build zergs have been having success for a month or so with the infestor builds, they're already hit SO hard with the nerf bat that it's rediculous.
Wouldn't you be frustrated if you were in the zergs position, where you know ZvP is going back to the same old style that we've been getting raped in for almost a year?
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On September 10 2011 10:22 Umpteen wrote:
I can't help thinking we wouldn't be having these arguments if Zerg were able to do what it's supposed to do and actually mass units, and had a versatile core unit that wasn't a caster.
Good point. The Infestor would be imbalanced if it didn't cover for the weakness of the rest of the zerg army. But it does.
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List of rarely useful spells in SC2, at pro levels:
-Neural parasite (infestor),
-2500mm strike cannon (thor),
-Seeker missile (raven) - maybe not anymore,
-Mass recall (mothership),
-Vortex (mothership).
List of rarely useful spells in BW, at pro levels:
-Ensnare (queen),
-Infest command center (queen),
-Restoration (medic),
-Optic flare (medic),
-Lock down (ghost),
-Cloak (ghost),
-EMP (science vessel),
-Hallucination (high templar),
-Feedback (dark archon),
-Maelstrom (dark archon),
-Mind control (dark archon),
-Disruption web (corsair).
I'm not all for that neural parasite nerf, all I'm saying is relax, guys, not all spells in the game have to be useful all the time.
There's nothing I enjoy more in BW than seeing a pro taking a unit/spell seen in 0.1% of the games, and making it work.
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EPT
