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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 10 2011 13:46 roemy wrote:
give fungal to the queen and transfusion to the infestor
- leave NP as it is -.-
-> fungal becomes a defensive thing (until we drop queens behind mineral lines - but we might as well drop banelings vOv) and ultras could actually survive for more than 10 sec
no thank you. a gas less aoe caster?....thats like if HT cost 150 mins only instead
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On September 10 2011 13:50 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 13:43 Supamang wrote:
Broodlords would take:
Spawning Pool - 65 seconds
Lair - 80 seconds
Infestation pit - 50 seconds
Hive - 100 seconds
Greater Spire - 100 seconds
(Spire can be built any time between Lair and Hive)
Thats a total of 390 seconds. There is absolutely no way for a zerg to get to T3 tech before a Terran.
This isnt even considering the fact that Terran has much more cost efficient units than Zerg does. Labeling things by tiers is completely misleading simply because of the time (and effort) it takes to get to those late tech units are totally disproportional The other thing to consider, and I'd say it's maybe uniquely most applicable to mutas and brood lords, is the zerg production schema. You're talking about thor tech time but that doesn't factor in production capability.
Yea thats good to consider in the grand scheme of things, but were talking about dealing with a T3 timing push against Zerg. If Protoss or Terran do a timing push as soon as they get T3, Zerg cant use their T3 to deal with it.
Im not saying its imbalanced because of this, Im merely pointing out the fact that it isnt because of "bad mechanics" or "sloppy play" (or some other rationalization those guys I quoted earlier mentioned) that Zerg doesnt reach T3 before the other races. Its simply because its impossible considering the building times.
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On September 10 2011 13:43 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. Its not just about resources, its about the time it takes to get to the tech. Time it takes for Terran to get to Thors: Supply Depot - 30 seconds Barracks - 60 seconds Factory - 60 seconds Armory - 65 seconds (tech labs can be built any time between barracks to armory) Thats a total of 215 seconds to get Thor tech For Ultras, it takes Zerg: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Ultra Cavern - 65 seconds Thats a total of 355 seconds to get to Ultralisk tech Broodlords would take: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Greater Spire - 100 seconds (Spire can be built any time between Lair and Hive) Thats a total of 390 seconds. There is absolutely no way for a zerg to get to T3 tech before a Terran. This isnt even considering the fact that Terran has much more cost efficient units than Zerg does. Labeling things by tiers is completely misleading simply because of the time (and effort) it takes to get to those late tech units are totally disproportional
the reason it SHOULD take longer for zerg is because once they have the tech, they have the BEST production rate of their T3 tech of all 3 races. You would have to add in the time of 4 more factories to keep up with zerg ultra production to make it a fair comparison.
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On September 10 2011 13:50 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 13:43 Supamang wrote:
Broodlords would take:
Spawning Pool - 65 seconds
Lair - 80 seconds
Infestation pit - 50 seconds
Hive - 100 seconds
Greater Spire - 100 seconds
(Spire can be built any time between Lair and Hive)
Thats a total of 390 seconds. There is absolutely no way for a zerg to get to T3 tech before a Terran.
This isnt even considering the fact that Terran has much more cost efficient units than Zerg does. Labeling things by tiers is completely misleading simply because of the time (and effort) it takes to get to those late tech units are totally disproportional The other thing to consider, and I'd say it's maybe uniquely most applicable to mutas and brood lords, is the zerg production schema. You're talking about thor tech time but that doesn't factor in production capability.
1 Thor will always be useful. Maybe not as effective as you would like, but besides a pure bio army, no terran army wouldn't be strengthened by a single thor. A single Broodlord? A complete joke. You need at least 5 to have any real effect.
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I'm just kind of wondering about what kind of mass thor rush you're worried about that comes after neural parasite timing but before brood lord. If it's a real big thing I haven't yet heard of it.
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On September 10 2011 13:43 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. Its not just about resources, its about the time it takes to get to the tech. Time it takes for Terran to get to Thors: Supply Depot - 30 seconds Barracks - 60 seconds Factory - 60 seconds Armory - 65 seconds (tech labs can be built any time between barracks to armory) Thats a total of 215 seconds to get Thor tech For Ultras, it takes Zerg: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Ultra Cavern - 65 seconds Thats a total of 355 seconds to get to Ultralisk tech Broodlords would take: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Greater Spire - 100 seconds (Spire can be built any time between Lair and Hive) Thats a total of 390 seconds. There is absolutely no way for a zerg to get to T3 tech before a Terran. This isnt even considering the fact that Terran has much more cost efficient units than Zerg does. Labeling things by tiers is completely misleading simply because of the time (and effort) it takes to get to those late tech units are totally disproportional EDIT: oh and for Colossi: Pylon - 25 Gateway - 65 Cyber Core - 50 Robotics Facility - 65 Robotics Bay - 65 Thats a total of 270 seconds for Colossi. Zerg Tier 3 is the slowest
Oh jesus stop whining about how long it takes to get to tier 3 and not being cost efficient, LETS GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY, terran is the most cost efficient race without a doubt. Not only that they are the most complete race. Zerg is second in the running and toss is last. Yes toss can get to tier 3 faster then Zerg however Zerg can probably send liek 30 lings at the cost of wat 750 minerals to kill them while they are trying? or we can spend about about 1k mins and 1k gas to defend as a toss. Stop whining about Zerg being nerfed, yes i can see the NP nerf as a WTF? too but thats about all. You dont need to start talking about cost efficiency for your race. Im not gonna go on about how toss has to go at atleast tier 3 to get cost efficient units because if you've played the race already, you would know.
BTW if your just stating the facts and the time it takes, ignore this post cos i couldn't tell if you were.
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On September 10 2011 12:59 Mizzit wrote:
wow no more neural on my colossi is gonna be great. the mass fester players are going to need to find a new build against toss. probably gonna see more roach corrupter w/ some hydra mixed in, but i can see this as the beginning of the end for the mass fester play style. what do i know though
Roach Corruptor?
the dark days of zvp are returning ..
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On September 10 2011 13:54 izgodlee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 13:43 Supamang wrote:On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. Its not just about resources, its about the time it takes to get to the tech. Time it takes for Terran to get to Thors: Supply Depot - 30 seconds Barracks - 60 seconds Factory - 60 seconds Armory - 65 seconds (tech labs can be built any time between barracks to armory) Thats a total of 215 seconds to get Thor tech For Ultras, it takes Zerg: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Ultra Cavern - 65 seconds Thats a total of 355 seconds to get to Ultralisk tech Broodlords would take: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Greater Spire - 100 seconds (Spire can be built any time between Lair and Hive) Thats a total of 390 seconds. There is absolutely no way for a zerg to get to T3 tech before a Terran. This isnt even considering the fact that Terran has much more cost efficient units than Zerg does. Labeling things by tiers is completely misleading simply because of the time (and effort) it takes to get to those late tech units are totally disproportional the reason it SHOULD take longer for zerg is because once they have the tech, they have the BEST production rate of their T3 tech of all 3 races. You would have to add in the time of 4 more factories to keep up with zerg ultra production to make it a fair comparison.
Yes I agree for the most part about this.
I was responding to the earlier guy who was condescendingly telling us Zergs that we should use T3 to fight against T3. All I wanted to point out was that this is sometimes impossible due to timings.
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On September 10 2011 13:58 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 12:59 Mizzit wrote:
wow no more neural on my colossi is gonna be great. the mass fester players are going to need to find a new build against toss. probably gonna see more roach corrupter w/ some hydra mixed in, but i can see this as the beginning of the end for the mass fester play style. what do i know though Roach Corruptor? the dark days of zvp are returning ..
Yeah for bad players without knowledge of the match up, it certainly does.
Korean zergs aren't using NP that heavily, yet they still absolutely murder protoss.
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On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out.
I'm not sure what your saying at all here, currently if your using infestors and you scout coli, the correct response is to get NP. In 1.4 the correct response to Coli is corruptors. You cannot win with roach corruptor on 2 base vs 2 base because corruptors are fantastically cost ineffecient vs coli. So... you'll need 3+ bases to survive against coli anyway?
spire + greater spire for broods and ultra cavern? The +2/+3 armor upgrades you need for ultras to be usable? then the 250 gas cost per brood/150 gas cost per ultra? This is actually pretty comparable to teching to Coli with thermal lance and some ups, but the thing is having 1-2 coli out against lings/roaches etc. is a massive help. Having 1-2 ultras or broods out versus zealot/stalker/archon or gateway/coli doesn't help that much.
5+ broods or ultras are fantastic, but you're not going to have the gas to do that quickly enough off a lower number of bases anyway.
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On September 10 2011 14:00 Bactrian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. I'm not sure what your saying at all here, currently if your using infestors and you scout coli, the correct response is to get NP. In 1.4 the correct response to Coli is corruptors. You cannot win with roach corruptor on 2 base vs 2 base because corruptors are fantastically cost ineffecient vs coli. So... you'll need 3+ bases to survive against coli anyway? spire + greater spire for broods and ultra cavern? The +2/+3 armor upgrades you need for ultras to be usable? then the 250 gas cost per brood/150 gas cost per ultra? This is actually pretty comparable to teching to Coli with thermal lance and some ups, but the thing is having 1-2 coli out against lings/roaches etc. is a massive help. Having 1-2 ultras or broods out versus zealot/stalker/archon or gateway/coli doesn't help that much. 5+ broods or ultras are fantastic, but you're not going to have the gas to do that quickly enough off a lower number of bases anyway.
Because it takes time for the toss to push across the map? You also need thermal for colossi, that's not even debatable, or they will be fungaled and focused down.
You force them to advance slowly due to fungal ling surrounds, and once ultra tech pops, you can make a few at once. No ultras don't really need armour ups to be useful at that stage, in fact stock upgrades are better.
This game is not rushing t3 asap and seeing who gets there first, I'm saying Zerg can tech to t3 faster than they are doing so now, maybe delaying their third saturation except for gas.
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Massively disappointed about NP only being able to be used on non massive unit. I see little merit in that choice but still don't like it at all and I only play zerg when I off race.
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Can anyone help me understand the basis of the blink nerf? I play toss and really don't understand making it take longer to tech to...
Neural nerf is a little confusing to... that really seems to bash infestors into the ground + the fungal nerf. I'd have rather seen something like a buff to counters to infestors b/c i loved the gameplay involving infestors and now they will be used even less lol. Something like making feedback break neural even if it doesn't kill the infestor.
Mother buff is a joke just like the unit... what a waste of effort... buff accel?? Seriously... Now instead of seeing it in .1% of games you might see it in .11%!!!!!!
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On September 10 2011 14:10 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 14:00 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. I'm not sure what your saying at all here, currently if your using infestors and you scout coli, the correct response is to get NP. In 1.4 the correct response to Coli is corruptors. You cannot win with roach corruptor on 2 base vs 2 base because corruptors are fantastically cost ineffecient vs coli. So... you'll need 3+ bases to survive against coli anyway? spire + greater spire for broods and ultra cavern? The +2/+3 armor upgrades you need for ultras to be usable? then the 250 gas cost per brood/150 gas cost per ultra? This is actually pretty comparable to teching to Coli with thermal lance and some ups, but the thing is having 1-2 coli out against lings/roaches etc. is a massive help. Having 1-2 ultras or broods out versus zealot/stalker/archon or gateway/coli doesn't help that much. 5+ broods or ultras are fantastic, but you're not going to have the gas to do that quickly enough off a lower number of bases anyway. Because it takes time for the toss to push across the map? You also need thermal for colossi, that's not even debatable, or they will be fungaled and focused down. You force them to advance slowly due to fungal ling surrounds, and once ultra tech pops, you can make a few at once. No ultras don't really need armour ups to be useful at that stage, in fact stock upgrades are better. This game is not rushing t3 asap and seeing who gets there first, I'm saying Zerg can tech to t3 faster than they are doing so now, maybe delaying their third saturation except for gas.
Refer to my earlier post about the impossibilities due to timings. It takes 85 seconds longer to get to Ultras for Zerg than it takes for Protoss to get to Colossi. It doesnt take a minute to push out across a map, even with fungals. FG lasts 4 seconds, youre gonna need a shit ton of Infestors to stop the Protoss army before it reaches your base. Not to mention, youll have to cut a lot of units to save resources to get an effective number of ultras right off the bat.
If you want to argue against Zergs complaining about the NP nerf, argue that we can fight against other T3 well enough with our T2 units. Dont use the argument that Zergs can get to T3 quicker because we simply cant. If you still think we can, prove it by doing it yourself in a ladder game.
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On September 10 2011 13:15 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 12:59 Mizzit wrote:
wow no more neural on my colossi is gonna be great. the mass fester players are going to need to find a new build against toss. probably gonna see more roach corrupter w/ some hydra mixed in, but i can see this as the beginning of the end for the mass fester play style. what do i know though This was the normal when Zerg was getting repeatedly crushed by protoss. This combination was absolute garbage in the match up, and was what caused blizzard to make the infestor more viable and useful. You are about 6 months behind the meta game suggesting this.
The reason why the composition was so bad was because Corruptors were the lynch pin of success in any large engagement and Corruptors are really really bad. You need a lot of them to really do anything in a timely manner and if you make too many or too few you're screwed. A terran player can fly a wave of Vikings in and out to poke and prod the colossus. With Corruptors, unless a Colossus is separated from the death ball, you either have to send everything or nothing. Corruptors are essentially flying roaches that don't have the benefit of being cheap.
On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out.
I don't think you understand how Zerg works very well. Zerg doesn't have many units that spawn "ready for action." Zerglings require a 100 gas upgrade to be relevant. Roaches require a 100 gas upgrade to be relevant. Banelings require a 150 gas upgrade to be relevant. Hydralisks need a 150 gas upgrade to be relevant. Overlords need a 100 gas upgrade to scout or you could morph a single overseer for 50 (as of this patch) to get some information. You see where I'm going with this right?
Zerg units are weak when they've been given all of their proper upgrades vs. a protoss that's near max. NOW IMAGINE IF YOU TOOK ALL OR HALF THOSE VITAL UPGRADES AWAY AND CUT ARMY SIZE ALL IN A GAMBLE TO GET FAST T3. The icing on the cake is that our T3 units aren't revolutionary once one hits the field. When a thor comes out, a flock of mutas have to GTFO. When a Colossus comes out, your lings better GTFO. When an ultralisk or Broodlord comes out you send 4 zealots or a void ray to kill it.
You need a sizable number of them. 2 or 3 Broodlords with a poorly teched ground army will crumble to literally anything thrown at it.
And to your comment of:
"This game is not rushing t3 asap and seeing who gets there first, I'm saying Zerg can tech to t3 faster than they are doing so now, maybe delaying their third saturation except for gas."
You're right that Zerg T3 can come out faster then whats been seen, however the time and money invested in that tech when it's not done safely leaves the opponent with a HUGE window of opportunity to retaliate.
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To add to the post of MagicGunner,
Do not forget that all the T3 units of non-Zergs are ranged based, and relatively able to move at a solid pace. Our broodlords generally move slower than my grandma in her wheelchair, and my colossi are melee so already lose too much health before they even get close to fight.
Now I don't mind that our units are like this, but it creates a very problematic issue when nothing is there to support these units (in the form of infestors or what not), due to the fact that others can sit back and relatively do damage without too much risk to their T3. If my ultralisks die because you can DPS them down before they reach the frontline, that makes them rather gimped in their losses.
This is why an ultralisk becomes truly efficient after he has received the armor upgrades. Another solution would be to bring mass queens to heal the ultralisks, but Queens are slow off creep, slow produced, and the DPS on the ultra's will be higher than the heals can provide when the upgrades aren't fixed properly.
Neural is becoming useless with this change. Don't come tell me to NP the HT's or Ghosts, as not only are they super small, they are usually well positioned behind a line of defensive units that will kill the infestor before anything can be done with the NP'd unit.
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On September 10 2011 14:22 MagicGunner wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 13:15 MaestroSC wrote:On September 10 2011 12:59 Mizzit wrote:
wow no more neural on my colossi is gonna be great. the mass fester players are going to need to find a new build against toss. probably gonna see more roach corrupter w/ some hydra mixed in, but i can see this as the beginning of the end for the mass fester play style. what do i know though This was the normal when Zerg was getting repeatedly crushed by protoss. This combination was absolute garbage in the match up, and was what caused blizzard to make the infestor more viable and useful. You are about 6 months behind the meta game suggesting this. The reason why the composition was so bad was because Corruptors were the lynch pin of success in any large engagement and Corruptors are really really bad. You need a lot of them to really do anything in a timely manner and if you make too many or too few you're screwed. A terran player can fly a wave of Vikings in and out to poke and prod the colossus. With Corruptors, unless a Colossus is separated from the death ball, you either have to send everything or nothing. Corruptors are essentially flying roaches that don't have the benefit of being cheap.Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. I don't think you understand how Zerg works very well. Zerg doesn't have many units that spawn "ready for action." Zerglings require a 100 gas upgrade to be relevant. Roaches require a 100 gas upgrade to be relevant. Banelings require a 150 gas upgrade to be relevant. Hydralisks need a 150 gas upgrade to be relevant. Overlords need a 100 gas upgrade to scout or you could morph a single overseer for 50 (as of this patch) to get some information. You see where I'm going with this right? Zerg units are weak when they've been given all of their proper upgrades vs. a protoss that's near max. NOW IMAGINE IF YOU TOOK ALL OR HALF THOSE VITAL UPGRADES AWAY AND CUT ARMY SIZE ALL IN A GAMBLE TO GET FAST T3. The icing on the cake is that our T3 units aren't revolutionary once one hits the field. When a thor comes out, a flock of mutas have to GTFO. When a Colossus comes out, your lings better GTFO. When an ultralisk or Broodlord comes out you send 4 zealots or a void ray to kill it. You need a sizable number of them. 2 or 3 Broodlords with a poorly teched ground army will crumble to literally anything thrown at it. And to your comment of: "This game is not rushing t3 asap and seeing who gets there first, I'm saying Zerg can tech to t3 faster than they are doing so now, maybe delaying their third saturation except for gas." You're right that Zerg T3 can come out faster then whats been seen, however the time and money invested in that tech when it's not done safely leaves the opponent with a HUGE window of opportunity to retaliate.
You are thinking in a wrong way bro you are comparing t3 to t1 ? Anyway people like you should start thinking about well maybe i should not mass only t3 units and casters and prey i win and cry about how my expensive shit dies to snipes,feedback,siege fire,PFs whatever and start thinking how those t3 units can be my support for my army like it was in BW Zerg. Maybe you shouldnt have 90 drones and have 60-70 with mass ling,bane with some infestors and some ultras and not 32 infestors.
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On September 10 2011 14:37 Severus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 14:22 MagicGunner wrote:On September 10 2011 13:15 MaestroSC wrote:On September 10 2011 12:59 Mizzit wrote:
wow no more neural on my colossi is gonna be great. the mass fester players are going to need to find a new build against toss. probably gonna see more roach corrupter w/ some hydra mixed in, but i can see this as the beginning of the end for the mass fester play style. what do i know though This was the normal when Zerg was getting repeatedly crushed by protoss. This combination was absolute garbage in the match up, and was what caused blizzard to make the infestor more viable and useful. You are about 6 months behind the meta game suggesting this. The reason why the composition was so bad was because Corruptors were the lynch pin of success in any large engagement and Corruptors are really really bad. You need a lot of them to really do anything in a timely manner and if you make too many or too few you're screwed. A terran player can fly a wave of Vikings in and out to poke and prod the colossus. With Corruptors, unless a Colossus is separated from the death ball, you either have to send everything or nothing. Corruptors are essentially flying roaches that don't have the benefit of being cheap.On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. I don't think you understand how Zerg works very well. Zerg doesn't have many units that spawn "ready for action." Zerglings require a 100 gas upgrade to be relevant. Roaches require a 100 gas upgrade to be relevant. Banelings require a 150 gas upgrade to be relevant. Hydralisks need a 150 gas upgrade to be relevant. Overlords need a 100 gas upgrade to scout or you could morph a single overseer for 50 (as of this patch) to get some information. You see where I'm going with this right? Zerg units are weak when they've been given all of their proper upgrades vs. a protoss that's near max. NOW IMAGINE IF YOU TOOK ALL OR HALF THOSE VITAL UPGRADES AWAY AND CUT ARMY SIZE ALL IN A GAMBLE TO GET FAST T3. The icing on the cake is that our T3 units aren't revolutionary once one hits the field. When a thor comes out, a flock of mutas have to GTFO. When a Colossus comes out, your lings better GTFO. When an ultralisk or Broodlord comes out you send 4 zealots or a void ray to kill it. You need a sizable number of them. 2 or 3 Broodlords with a poorly teched ground army will crumble to literally anything thrown at it. And to your comment of: "This game is not rushing t3 asap and seeing who gets there first, I'm saying Zerg can tech to t3 faster than they are doing so now, maybe delaying their third saturation except for gas." You're right that Zerg T3 can come out faster then whats been seen, however the time and money invested in that tech when it's not done safely leaves the opponent with a HUGE window of opportunity to retaliate. You are thinking in a wrong way bro you are comparing t3 to t1 ? Anyway people like you should start thinking about well maybe i should not mass only t3 units and casters and prey i win and cry about how my expensive shit dies to snipes,feedback,siege fire,PFs whatever and start thinking how those t3 units can be my support for my army like it was in BW Zerg. Maybe you shouldnt have 90 drones and have 60-70 with mass ling,bane with some infestors and some ultras and not 32 infestors.
And perhaps it is time for you to indulge yourself in the mechanics of Zerg a little bit deeper, before calling out to another player that basicly states that the change in Neural Parasite will partially screw us over a lot because of many factors including the fact that our T3 isn't as viable as the other T3.
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Not an angry/upset post, but a legit question...
If you can't neural parasite massive units, what are you going to NP? The only legit target worth the upgrade, 100 energy, and temporary loss of the infestor is MAYBE the voidray. Maybe broodlords. Anyone?
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On September 10 2011 14:41 RMmanlots wrote:
Not an angry/upset post, but a legit question...
If you can't neural parasite massive units, what are you going to NP? The only legit target worth the upgrade, 100 energy, and temporary loss of the infestor is MAYBE the voidray. Maybe broodlords. Anyone?
1. rush to infestor with NP
2. steal a probe
3. start building your protoss base
4. congrats, you do now have a remote chance of wining.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
