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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 10 2011 18:41 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 18:29 DeltaForce wrote:On September 10 2011 17:45 Inex wrote:
The good thing of the NP nerf is that more players will experiment with the mothership, because frankly the broodlord, roach, infestor combo is very hard to deal with in the late stages of the game. With the acceleration speed increase I am sure that we are going to see more of the Mothership. Why not just make the Mothership resistant to NP? Kinda like the Ultra? And can I ask, i didnt play broodwar too much, but how was the dark archon balanced back then? im just curious. cause i do remember it being a forever mind control, strong than what it is now, so how was it balanced? Cant we just try to imitate that? 150 energy instead of just 100, takes forever to get enough, no "start with more energy upgrade", and 250 gas instead of just 100. That combined with the fact that spellcasters were generally much harder to use in BW because of the hotkeys. You couldn't just make 20 of them and mind control everything.
It was 200 gas not 250 I think.
I believe it sapped all your shields to cast mind control too, so in most cases you would lose the archon immediately, so you were essentially "buying" a unit on the enemies team, which was not really worth it in most situations as not much costs more than 250 min 200 gas.
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On September 10 2011 18:52 Disquiet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 13:43 Supamang wrote:On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. Its not just about resources, its about the time it takes to get to the tech. Time it takes for Terran to get to Thors: Supply Depot - 30 seconds Barracks - 60 seconds Factory - 60 seconds Armory - 65 seconds (tech labs can be built any time between barracks to armory) Thats a total of 215 seconds to get Thor tech For Ultras, it takes Zerg: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Ultra Cavern - 65 seconds Thats a total of 355 seconds to get to Ultralisk tech Broodlords would take: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Greater Spire - 100 seconds (Spire can be built any time between Lair and Hive) Thats a total of 390 seconds. There is absolutely no way for a zerg to get to T3 tech before a Terran. This isnt even considering the fact that Terran has much more cost efficient units than Zerg does. Labeling things by tiers is completely misleading simply because of the time (and effort) it takes to get to those late tech units are totally disproportional EDIT: oh and for Colossi: Pylon - 25 Gateway - 65 Cyber Core - 50 Robotics Facility - 65 Robotics Bay - 65 Thats a total of 270 seconds for Colossi. Zerg Tier 3 is the slowest Horribly biased post. Firstly, barracks will be 65 seconds not 60. Secondly, you completely ignored that thors and colossus have to be built sequentially one at a time, whereas as soon as you get the tech zerg can build as many ultras as he can afford simultaneously. Thor and colossi and are not that useful in ones or 2s, you really need 3 or more to have a serious push capable of beating roaches, and if you take the amount of time taken to build those units the tech time is actually pretty balanced.
The math he did is only adding up numbers. I think it's even worse in a real game, since Zerg tech to tier 3 MUCH slower than Terran or Protoss, independant of build times.
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On September 10 2011 18:59 Disquiet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 18:41 Excludos wrote:On September 10 2011 18:29 DeltaForce wrote:On September 10 2011 17:45 Inex wrote:
The good thing of the NP nerf is that more players will experiment with the mothership, because frankly the broodlord, roach, infestor combo is very hard to deal with in the late stages of the game. With the acceleration speed increase I am sure that we are going to see more of the Mothership. Why not just make the Mothership resistant to NP? Kinda like the Ultra? And can I ask, i didnt play broodwar too much, but how was the dark archon balanced back then? im just curious. cause i do remember it being a forever mind control, strong than what it is now, so how was it balanced? Cant we just try to imitate that? 150 energy instead of just 100, takes forever to get enough, no "start with more energy upgrade", and 250 gas instead of just 100. That combined with the fact that spellcasters were generally much harder to use in BW because of the hotkeys. You couldn't just make 20 of them and mind control everything. It was 200 gas not 250 I think. I believe it sapped all your shields to cast mind control too, so in most cases you would lose the archon immediately, so you were essentially "buying" a unit on the enemies team, which was not really worth it in most situations as not much costs more than 250 min 200 gas.
Yes, you're completely right. Its 200 gas, and the shield is reduced to 0 
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Sorry, it's not so much Colossi don't kill Colossi fast, it's that Zerg's ground army isn't marauders, it's hydras and roaches which die much faster. What's even worse is forcefield + colossi, when marauders have stim and range.
The only way Zerg can deal with colossi is baneling rain (which is too dependent on Protoss, it takes a lot of micro, but Zerg can only micro for it to work, they can't really prevent Protoss from micro'ing away from it) and infestors.
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On September 10 2011 19:22 Belial88 wrote:
Sorry, it's not so much Colossi don't kill Colossi fast, it's that Zerg's ground army isn't marauders, it's hydras and roaches which die much faster. What's even worse is forcefield + colossi, when marauders have stim and range.
The only way Zerg can deal with colossi is baneling rain (which is too dependent on Protoss, it takes a lot of micro, but Zerg can only micro for it to work, they can't really prevent Protoss from micro'ing away from it) and infestors.
I find it really odd that you mentiond "prevent protoss from microing away" in the same sentence as you mention "infestors".
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On September 10 2011 19:24 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 19:22 Belial88 wrote:
Sorry, it's not so much Colossi don't kill Colossi fast, it's that Zerg's ground army isn't marauders, it's hydras and roaches which die much faster. What's even worse is forcefield + colossi, when marauders have stim and range.
The only way Zerg can deal with colossi is baneling rain (which is too dependent on Protoss, it takes a lot of micro, but Zerg can only micro for it to work, they can't really prevent Protoss from micro'ing away from it) and infestors. I find it really odd that you mentiond "prevent protoss from microing away" in the same sentence as you mention "infestors".
When the 2 base Colossi push comes Zergs cannot have both infestors and baneling with overlord drop and expect to live. Too much gas for all of that. That is why neural parasite was important, because you could build infestors and use them to survive that push.
Or you can make bling bombs and hope toss has bad micro and doesn't pull his stalkers away from overlords.
Using bling bombs in this situation is just as reliable as if Colossi 50% of the time attacked the ground next to enemy units instead of those units.
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On September 10 2011 19:29 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 19:24 ExO_ wrote:On September 10 2011 19:22 Belial88 wrote:
Sorry, it's not so much Colossi don't kill Colossi fast, it's that Zerg's ground army isn't marauders, it's hydras and roaches which die much faster. What's even worse is forcefield + colossi, when marauders have stim and range.
The only way Zerg can deal with colossi is baneling rain (which is too dependent on Protoss, it takes a lot of micro, but Zerg can only micro for it to work, they can't really prevent Protoss from micro'ing away from it) and infestors. I find it really odd that you mentiond "prevent protoss from microing away" in the same sentence as you mention "infestors". When the 2 base Colossi push comes Zergs cannot have both infestors and baneling with overlord drop and expect to live. Too much gas for all of that. That is why neural parasite was important, because you could build infestors and use them to survive that push. Or you can make bling bombs and hope toss has bad micro and doesn't pull his stalkers away from overlords. Using bling bombs in this situation is just as reliable as if Colossi 50% of the time attacked the ground next to enemy units instead of those units.
quite frankly, I disagree and ask you what exactly 2 base colossi push you are referring to. If a protoss FFE a zerg can easily and is almost expected to take a fast 3rd. The options for toss to pressure this 3rd are very limited, and are not extremely difficult for a zerg to defend against. This puts you on 6 gas, which I believe allows you to have enough lings to control the early game and enough for infestors + overlord drop and some banelings. Colossus tech takes a long time to reach let's say 3 colossus, or even 2, if a P FFEs.
If you are referring to a slower expand, such as a 1 gate or 3 gate expand, then a zerg player will have his nat much more quickly. If you're P opponent does tech to colossus from this, it will give a zerg opponent plenty of time to prepare, especially if you are able to get your 3rd up. Scouting what the P opponent could be doing might be hard, except for the fact zerg have overlords and a very fast unit for early map control in lings.
Edit: Furthermore, are you really insinuating that it is easier for a zerg to tech to pathogen glands and NP and hold off some kind of colossus push, but isn't viable to get overlord drop and banelings? How much time does it take to research 2 techs from the investor pit? I daresay, you would have plenty of time to get banelings with ovie drop and infestors in the amount of time it's going to take to get NP and pathogen.
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^ Dude... wtf are you talking about?
If Protoss FFE, then Zerg won't have lair tech in time for 2 base aggression, and they won't have enough gas for banelings (at most they'll have 2 geysers up, for roaches + upgrades). Nestea and Losira never get Lair until after 100 supply. Some Zerg get it after 70 supply, but that's why they lose a lot.
And there are many options for Protoss to deny a third... don't FFE. 1 gate sentry expand stargate, 1 gate expand, nexus first w/o forge, and 3 gate sentry expand all put enough pressure to deny a third automatically.
And a Zerg can't really get his nat faster than he can against FFE - they can't hatch first because of the possilibity of FFE, and if you don't FFE, Zerg is forced to play 2 base vs 2 base. With FFE, Zerg can have a third up for a good 10 minutes before Protoss.
Both baneling rain (without speed) and infestors (without NP) take the same amount of time to tech to, actually, but baneling rain is a bit more gas intensive, and is useless if Protoss goes air (which is popular) or blink. Infestors, meanwhile, owns stargate, blink, mass gate, does okay against robo, and while HT owns it, it's much less popular than blink or stargate, and you can stay alive with spines and get roaches quickly.
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On September 10 2011 09:11 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 09:05 Ihpares wrote:On September 10 2011 08:52 NicolBolas wrote:On September 10 2011 08:37 Doko wrote:
I'll take slow reavers over colossus any day. Nothing id enjoy seeing more in starcraft than 2 scarabs making their way to a bioball. 2 seconds later all that remains is a giant pool of blood [stuff] Colossi may be uninteresting from a viewer standpoint, but they don't make you pick a certain strategy or die. The opponent still has several viable options. BUT, Colossi do relegate entire techs nonviable, just as Reavers did. Zergling/Baneling/Hydras are nonviable because of it. No, ling / bling drop / hydra is still viable, even against colossus. You can force trades, you can bling drop their mineral line, or even sit back while only countering / roaming the map with lings and doing baneling drops while taking bases, teching to infestor / ultra / bl and sit back. If one drop goes off you win. If not he has to prevent you bases, making him attack into you. It's a really nice composition and difficult to face as protoss.
If you tech somewhat fast you can get ultralisks in the mix before he gets a serious colussus count. ling/bling/hydra + ca 3 ultralisks crushes any colossus ball so hard its not even funny.
Of coarse you have a scary timing right before you get your ultralisks out, but pretty much any strategy has a period when he is weak. If you get to ultralisks, you have pretty much won the game!
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Edit: Furthermore, are you really insinuating that it is easier for a zerg to tech to pathogen glands and NP and hold off some kind of colossus push, but isn't viable to get overlord drop and banelings? How much time does it take to research 2 techs from the investor pit? I daresay, you would have plenty of time to get banelings with ovie drop and infestors in the amount of time it's going to take to get NP and pathogen.
Overlord drop are a very risky, inefficient build. It need to do tons of damage to be effective, a simple split or a retreat make all the gas invested in it useless + If it fails, the overlord massacre will supply block you at a time where you need to remax or die, which mean that you'll just die.
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^ You are aware that ultralisks take over a minute to get right? You will never get Ultralisks in time for even a 3 base 160 food mass colossi or deathball push. Just like you can't get Broodlords in time either.
Ultralisks do crush colossi balls hardcore, I wrote a guide about it, but the problem is that you MUST hold off the first push Protoss does, even if he waits until he's maxed out first, with lair tech, or you will be killed.
Ultralisks are also prohibitively expensive. Combined with their ridiculous build time, you will never have the 10+ Ultras together at once against Protoss before the first push. However, after the first push, if you can get 10 ultras, then it's GG no re.
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Russian Federation949 Posts
The RACKS change is making me a sad terran. ALL the builds will have to be reworked. And early racks pressure havent been an issue for a while in any match up.
BFH is now only usefull vs zerg. Which is interesting. Blue flame IMHO is too expensive for what it is now
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On September 10 2011 19:52 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +Edit: Furthermore, are you really insinuating that it is easier for a zerg to tech to pathogen glands and NP and hold off some kind of colossus push, but isn't viable to get overlord drop and banelings? How much time does it take to research 2 techs from the investor pit? I daresay, you would have plenty of time to get banelings with ovie drop and infestors in the amount of time it's going to take to get NP and pathogen. Overlord drop are a very risky, inefficient build. It need to do tons of damage to be effective, a simple split or a retreat make all the gas invested in it useless + If it fails, the overlord massacre will supply block you at a time where you need to remax or die, which mean that you'll just die.
You obviously havent seen very many top zerg players lately. Idra drops huge amounts of units everywhere, and most top players use overlord drops with banelings combined with fungal to simply execute the protoss army.
Don't even try to insinuate that overlord dropping is ineffective.
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On September 10 2011 20:08 Excludos wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 10 2011 19:52 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +Edit: Furthermore, are you really insinuating that it is easier for a zerg to tech to pathogen glands and NP and hold off some kind of colossus push, but isn't viable to get overlord drop and banelings? How much time does it take to research 2 techs from the investor pit? I daresay, you would have plenty of time to get banelings with ovie drop and infestors in the amount of time it's going to take to get NP and pathogen. Overlord drop are a very risky, inefficient build. It need to do tons of damage to be effective, a simple split or a retreat make all the gas invested in it useless + If it fails, the overlord massacre will supply block you at a time where you need to remax or die, which mean that you'll just die. You obviously havent seen very many top zerg players lately. Idra drops huge amounts of units everywhere, and most top players use overlord drops with banelings combined with fungal to simply execute the protoss army. Don't even try to insinuate that overlord dropping is ineffective.
How about we stop insinuating that, if protoss stops insinuating that HTs are inneffective or not accesible vs infestors
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On September 10 2011 20:10 freewareplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 20:08 Excludos wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 10 2011 19:52 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +Edit: Furthermore, are you really insinuating that it is easier for a zerg to tech to pathogen glands and NP and hold off some kind of colossus push, but isn't viable to get overlord drop and banelings? How much time does it take to research 2 techs from the investor pit? I daresay, you would have plenty of time to get banelings with ovie drop and infestors in the amount of time it's going to take to get NP and pathogen. Overlord drop are a very risky, inefficient build. It need to do tons of damage to be effective, a simple split or a retreat make all the gas invested in it useless + If it fails, the overlord massacre will supply block you at a time where you need to remax or die, which mean that you'll just die. You obviously havent seen very many top zerg players lately. Idra drops huge amounts of units everywhere, and most top players use overlord drops with banelings combined with fungal to simply execute the protoss army. Don't even try to insinuate that overlord dropping is ineffective. How about we stop insinuating that, if protoss stops insinuating that HTs are inneffective or not accesible vs infestors
What are you on about? HT is the only way to deal with mass infestors. But considering fungal has longer range, and HTs are very slow, you can't argue that isn't hard for a protoss player to make it work.
But generally, if zerg goes mass infestor, its impossible to beat it without HT, unless you're simply that much ahead.
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Norway688 Posts
On September 10 2011 20:04 Pirat6662001 wrote:
The RACKS change is making me a sad terran. ALL the builds will have to be reworked. And early racks pressure havent been an issue for a while in any match up.
Have we been watching the same GSLs and MLGs?
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On September 10 2011 19:50 Belial88 wrote:
^ Dude... wtf are you talking about?
If Protoss FFE, then Zerg won't have lair tech in time for 2 base aggression, and they won't have enough gas for banelings (at most they'll have 2 geysers up, for roaches + upgrades). Nestea and Losira never get Lair until after 100 supply. Some Zerg get it after 70 supply, but that's why they lose a lot.
And there are many options for Protoss to deny a third... don't FFE. 1 gate sentry expand stargate, 1 gate expand, nexus first w/o forge, and 3 gate sentry expand all put enough pressure to deny a third automatically.
And a Zerg can't really get his nat faster than he can against FFE - they can't hatch first because of the possilibity of FFE, and if you don't FFE, Zerg is forced to play 2 base vs 2 base. With FFE, Zerg can have a third up for a good 10 minutes before Protoss.
Both baneling rain (without speed) and infestors (without NP) take the same amount of time to tech to, actually, but baneling rain is a bit more gas intensive, and is useless if Protoss goes air (which is popular) or blink. Infestors, meanwhile, owns stargate, blink, mass gate, does okay against robo, and while HT owns it, it's much less popular than blink or stargate, and you can stay alive with spines and get roaches quickly.
Zerg won't have lair in time for 2 base aggression? Is this a joke? Maybe for a specific style they won't, but it's far from impossible. I have seen and played against many zergs who quickly get gas before any kind of 2 base colossus push can come. If you are referring to 2 base aggression as something more along the lines of 6 gate, then you hardly need any of the things such as infestors or banelings to hold it off, which is the entire point. And if you believe 1 gate expand, 3 gate sentry expand, or any kind of stargate opener can deny a 3rd, I suggest you watch more higher level games. Most zergs are preemptively buildings spores at their 3rd, which stops the ability to deny a 3rd with a VR. Nexus first is incredibly risky, and dies to any number of zerg openings. 1 gate expand sentry expand has weakness to pressure, but is probably the most viable to deny a 3rd, however it is far from an "auto-deny" of the 3rd.
And I think you missed my point about banelings/infestors. The fact that you can tech to both simultaneously is exactly my point. The original point that spawned this arguement, was that baneling drops are inneffective vs toss, because the toss can micro out of them. Though I'm not entirely buying into that, I daresay, infestors definitely take that ability to micro out.
I'll agree with you that zerg takes a major risk if they hatch first. But the amount of pressure a protoss player can put on you while expanding is very limited: due to the the threat of runbys to deny his expansion, and the fact that ling/roach is a cheaper more cost efficient combo in the early game. Effectively, when the toss beings to expand, the zerg can take their 3rd quite easily.
Edit: and again I'd like to re-iterate zerg have fast lings and overlords, effectively meaning the easiest time scouting going into the mid game. So before you say "zerg can't defend against A because of the threat of B, remember a zerg player can effectively discover what a Protoss player is doing.
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On September 10 2011 20:13 Stiluz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 20:04 Pirat6662001 wrote:
The RACKS change is making me a sad terran. ALL the builds will have to be reworked. And early racks pressure havent been an issue for a while in any match up.
Have we been watching the same GSLs and MLGs?
You just got lured into the forest by a huge beastly troll..
I picked up on it when he stated that hellions where ineffective 
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On September 10 2011 19:09 Dimitime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 18:52 Disquiet wrote:On September 10 2011 13:43 Supamang wrote:On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
oh dear, they might have to make t3 units in order to beat t3 units! the shock and horror!
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. Its not just about resources, its about the time it takes to get to the tech. Time it takes for Terran to get to Thors: Supply Depot - 30 seconds Barracks - 60 seconds Factory - 60 seconds Armory - 65 seconds (tech labs can be built any time between barracks to armory) Thats a total of 215 seconds to get Thor tech For Ultras, it takes Zerg: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Ultra Cavern - 65 seconds Thats a total of 355 seconds to get to Ultralisk tech Broodlords would take: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Greater Spire - 100 seconds (Spire can be built any time between Lair and Hive) Thats a total of 390 seconds. There is absolutely no way for a zerg to get to T3 tech before a Terran. This isnt even considering the fact that Terran has much more cost efficient units than Zerg does. Labeling things by tiers is completely misleading simply because of the time (and effort) it takes to get to those late tech units are totally disproportional EDIT: oh and for Colossi: Pylon - 25 Gateway - 65 Cyber Core - 50 Robotics Facility - 65 Robotics Bay - 65 Thats a total of 270 seconds for Colossi. Zerg Tier 3 is the slowest Horribly biased post. Firstly, barracks will be 65 seconds not 60. Secondly, you completely ignored that thors and colossus have to be built sequentially one at a time, whereas as soon as you get the tech zerg can build as many ultras as he can afford simultaneously. Thor and colossi and are not that useful in ones or 2s, you really need 3 or more to have a serious push capable of beating roaches, and if you take the amount of time taken to build those units the tech time is actually pretty balanced. The math he did is only adding up numbers. I think it's even worse in a real game, since Zerg tech to tier 3 MUCH slower than Terran or Protoss, independant of build times.
The idea of "tiers" is something that has been brought over from WoW. There actually are no tiers, this is a real time strategy game.
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On September 10 2011 20:32 Dystisis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 19:09 Dimitime wrote:On September 10 2011 18:52 Disquiet wrote:On September 10 2011 13:43 Supamang wrote:On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:On September 10 2011 12:04 Protosnake wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, because zerg T3 isnt so much later than other race right ? When that terran will be pushing you with Thor/BFH at the 15min mark the zerg wont die because he will have several Ultra ready to fight Ultra and thor are both "T3" after all, they're out at the same time
Not. Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. Its not just about resources, its about the time it takes to get to the tech. Time it takes for Terran to get to Thors: Supply Depot - 30 seconds Barracks - 60 seconds Factory - 60 seconds Armory - 65 seconds (tech labs can be built any time between barracks to armory) Thats a total of 215 seconds to get Thor tech For Ultras, it takes Zerg: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Ultra Cavern - 65 seconds Thats a total of 355 seconds to get to Ultralisk tech Broodlords would take: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Greater Spire - 100 seconds (Spire can be built any time between Lair and Hive) Thats a total of 390 seconds. There is absolutely no way for a zerg to get to T3 tech before a Terran. This isnt even considering the fact that Terran has much more cost efficient units than Zerg does. Labeling things by tiers is completely misleading simply because of the time (and effort) it takes to get to those late tech units are totally disproportional EDIT: oh and for Colossi: Pylon - 25 Gateway - 65 Cyber Core - 50 Robotics Facility - 65 Robotics Bay - 65 Thats a total of 270 seconds for Colossi. Zerg Tier 3 is the slowest Horribly biased post. Firstly, barracks will be 65 seconds not 60. Secondly, you completely ignored that thors and colossus have to be built sequentially one at a time, whereas as soon as you get the tech zerg can build as many ultras as he can afford simultaneously. Thor and colossi and are not that useful in ones or 2s, you really need 3 or more to have a serious push capable of beating roaches, and if you take the amount of time taken to build those units the tech time is actually pretty balanced. The math he did is only adding up numbers. I think it's even worse in a real game, since Zerg tech to tier 3 MUCH slower than Terran or Protoss, independant of build times. The idea of "tiers" is something that has been brought over from WoW. There actually are no tiers, this is a real time strategy game.
Warcraft 3 actually. The tier discussion is old as it came from WC3(where it was easily able to be mapped since each building went through 3 transformations) and even in BW/SC2 its only applicable to zerg in general.
Trying to use tiers for protoss/terran is just pointless
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