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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 10 2011 20:22 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 19:50 Belial88 wrote:
^ Dude... wtf are you talking about?
If Protoss FFE, then Zerg won't have lair tech in time for 2 base aggression, and they won't have enough gas for banelings (at most they'll have 2 geysers up, for roaches + upgrades). Nestea and Losira never get Lair until after 100 supply. Some Zerg get it after 70 supply, but that's why they lose a lot.
And there are many options for Protoss to deny a third... don't FFE. 1 gate sentry expand stargate, 1 gate expand, nexus first w/o forge, and 3 gate sentry expand all put enough pressure to deny a third automatically.
And a Zerg can't really get his nat faster than he can against FFE - they can't hatch first because of the possilibity of FFE, and if you don't FFE, Zerg is forced to play 2 base vs 2 base. With FFE, Zerg can have a third up for a good 10 minutes before Protoss.
Both baneling rain (without speed) and infestors (without NP) take the same amount of time to tech to, actually, but baneling rain is a bit more gas intensive, and is useless if Protoss goes air (which is popular) or blink. Infestors, meanwhile, owns stargate, blink, mass gate, does okay against robo, and while HT owns it, it's much less popular than blink or stargate, and you can stay alive with spines and get roaches quickly.
Zerg won't have lair in time for 2 base aggression? Is this a joke? Maybe for a specific style they won't, but it's far from impossible. I have seen and played against many zergs who quickly get gas before any kind of 2 base colossus push can come. If you are referring to 2 base aggression as something more along the lines of 6 gate, then you hardly need any of the things such as infestors or banelings to hold it off, which is the entire point. And if you believe 1 gate expand, 3 gate sentry expand, or any kind of stargate opener can deny a 3rd, I suggest you watch more higher level games. Most zergs are preemptively buildings spores at their 3rd, which stops the ability to deny a 3rd with a VR. Nexus first is incredibly risky, and dies to any number of zerg openings. 1 gate expand sentry expand has weakness to pressure, but is probably the most viable to deny a 3rd, however it is far from an "auto-deny" of the 3rd. And I think you missed my point about banelings/infestors. The fact that you can tech to both simultaneously is exactly my point. The original point that spawned this arguement, was that baneling drops are inneffective vs toss, because the toss can micro out of them. Though I'm not entirely buying into that, I daresay, infestors definitely take that ability to micro out. I'll agree with you that zerg takes a major risk if they hatch first. But the amount of pressure a protoss player can put on you while expanding is very limited: due to the the threat of runbys to deny his expansion, and the fact that ling/roach is a cheaper more cost efficient combo in the early game. Effectively, when the toss beings to expand, the zerg can take their 3rd quite easily. Edit: and again I'd like to re-iterate zerg have fast lings and overlords, effectively meaning the easiest time scouting going into the mid game. So before you say "zerg can't defend against A because of the threat of B, remember a zerg player can effectively discover what a Protoss player is doing.
I said that Zerg won't have lair if they go fast third vs FFE. Zerg has a choice of either third or lair, and against 1 base openings like 3 gate sentry or 1 gate sentry or nexus first w/o forge, it's impossible for Zerg to get a fast third and hold it efficiently. Watch any Zerg go fast third vs FFE, like Nestea or Losira, and you'll see they never get lair until 100+ supply. If they do get an earlier lair, it's only because they have just held off the 2 base timing push from Protoss, but you'll never see hydras (Kryix tried this, and he died for it), infestors, speed roaches, etc to hold off 2 base aggression from a FFE when Zerg goes fast third.
Stargate openers won't deny Zerg's third, that's why Protoss is losing so much recently. It used to work, but now Zerg know it gives them a free pass to actually take a fast third since if they take it fast enough, they'll have access to creep for queens/spores.
But say, 3 gate sentry expand, Zerg can't hold a third or they'll die to simple zealot/sentry pressure.
Banelings are extremely costly, they are more gas intensive then hive (they come out earlier though). You will never be able to afford infestor/2-2/banelingrain before 3 bases. Even on 3 bases, it's hard to afford, but you'll never have both infestors and baneling rain and upgrades and mass ling on 2 base. That's like Protoss going stalker/colossi/storm on 2 base.
Infestors + baneling rain is amazing, but you'll never afford it before 3 bases, if not 4.
Baneling rain is great, it's just miserably bad vs stargate or blink, whereas infestors are more safe. It's not like there's anything baneling rain is better against, except HT (in which case roach+infestor will keep you alive for a time so you can get baneling rain or even hive), and although baneling rain is great against stalker/colossi/HT, you can usually get hive by then.
There's just not really a reason to get baneling rain + infestors when you can get Hive instead, or roach-infestor to hold HT, and infestors are much safer. Baneling rain is great against mass gateway pressure, but Zerg prefer to take a fast third.
I suppose 3 gate sentry into 6 gate is better held with ling/baneling rain than infestors, but that's one build out of many, and infestor+spine can hold it.
It's like, what is better to get, blink stalkers or ht? Blink stalkers is great against everything, and you can at least survive against infestor openings. HT, meanwhile, are amazing, but extremely vulnerable to roaches, are costlier, and won't really kill.
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I think they should keep NP the way it was and just give toss a big buff instead of the shitty mothership acceleration buff and an extra range on a useless unit in the late game.
This would help both PvT and PvZ both of which are incredibly difficult for protoss at this time.
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As others have already stated I think motherships should just be immune to NP like ultras are...
Either that, or get rid of NP all together and give us something else OR add 3 range to NP to make it better vs tanks...
The rest of the changes all seem pretty awesome though. Blizzard is slowly but surely doing good work.
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On September 10 2011 20:52 Perseverance wrote:
As others have already stated I think motherships should just be immune to NP like ultras are...
Either that, or get rid of NP all together and give us something else OR add 3 range to NP to make it better vs tanks...
The rest of the changes all seem pretty awesome though. Blizzard is slowly but surely doing good work.
Zerg should not be buffed at all in ZvP. They either need a nerf or protoss needs a big buff. Problem with nerfing zerg is that it hurts ZvT.
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On September 10 2011 20:52 Loodah wrote:
I think they should keep NP the way it was and just give toss a big buff instead of the shitty mothership acceleration buff and an extra range on a useless unit in the late game.
This would help both PvT and PvZ both of which are incredibly difficult for protoss at this time.
And how would you lay out this "big buff" without making protoss imba in the other direction? I think the immortal buff is huge tbh. It not only makes them better, but protoss now has the ability to change their builds altogheter to include them 
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^ Why do you think Zerg need a nerf? You realize that the reason protoss is getting owned in ZvP is not because of infestors or certain units, Protoss lost in this season's GSL because they went FFE against the new Nestea style fast third 100+ supply lair, and because they know how to handle stargate play.
2 seasons ago, we had multiple hatches killed by stargate openings and thirds denied. This season, Zerg's never cancelled their third against stargate, always got their third running against FFE, and stargates always ended up with Protoss behind 15 supply (with the exception of Kryix, who really didn't do it right and was up against MC).
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hmm, i don''t see neural parasite as a problem (i'm protoss), and since neural parasites main role is to get rid of the oppenents massive units, why remove it? i'm very skeptical about that change
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Immortal range will help more in PvP than in any other matchup. In other matchups they will just help gimmicky 1-2 base all in builds. They are still going to suck in the late game because they are slow and the units they are shooting always have a really high rate of fire which effectively nullifies the hardened shield.
Protoss needs a big buff to balance it out - they already have a much less than balanced win percentage in both PvZ and PvT. By nerfing zerg they are making zerg worse in a matchup that is already fairly balanced (or favoring terran) - by buffing protoss you can help both PvZ and PvT which are imbalanced.
I don't know what big buff they would need to be honest. I just hope we get something better than a mothership acceleration buff which is almost insignificant. Immortals aren't bad in the late game because of the range, so it's not really addressing their problem. Infestors need to be nerfed a hell of a lot more if that's the only balance change they are introducing in PvZ. The neural nerf is going to help a lot, and I hope it makes it through - but I'd rather get some sort of bigger protoss buff (maybe our upgrades should actually scale like the other races and charge should actually work against terran ......... ) to help even out both matchups.
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I think the main issue with protoss right now is that they can't find a composition that wins a 200 / 200 engagement against either race in the late game. If I max out on colossus / stalker / temp - I still lose convincingly against brood infestor as long as I'm not way way ahead on upgrades (which I shouldn't be). Then the zerg can also remax much more quickly. That doesn't make any sense. I can try to get air units, but infestors already are the best answer to air units for zerg. Our twilight upgrades are useless because of fungal. Our upgrades (after the patch) are turned against us by the only units we have that actually scale decently with upgrades ( colossus).
We are the race that has trouble defending multiple locations because our units suck in small numbers. By default we should be the race with the most powerful maxxed army. Just doesn't hold true any more because other races are actually learning how to use their incredibly powerful spell casters.
Also, there's not much we can do to pressure the late lair other than DT rush or stargate rush which are both easily nullified by queens and spores. Either that or two base all ins - which are the only options with decent win percentages. It's really hard to play a macro game against a zerg who gets the max number of drones in 12 minutes and then pumps nonstop units.
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Ok with the np nerf on mothership, but now the only unit zerg can np zvp without being ridiculously cost-ineffective is the immortal assuming there is armored units nearby. Yey, all zerg units will die to mass colossus again. Go corruptor?? Lol, as if, practically all zergs have learned how silly that is by now. The np nerf changes the entire game. ok to nerf np if colossus get nerfed too. And that is not happening.
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On September 10 2011 20:39 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 20:32 Dystisis wrote:On September 10 2011 19:09 Dimitime wrote:On September 10 2011 18:52 Disquiet wrote:On September 10 2011 13:43 Supamang wrote:On September 10 2011 13:29 shadymmj wrote:On September 10 2011 12:46 Bactrian wrote:On September 10 2011 12:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 12:20 Maetl wrote:On September 10 2011 12:13 izgodlee wrote:
[quote]
Maybe if zergs weren;t so greedy and needed 6 bases and 90 drones before they got a hive =/ It takes quite a bit longer to tech to T3 safely for zerg than it does for other races. Zerg does not have a very cost efficient way of defending, nor does it have terribly cost efficient units as a whole. Zerg also needs enough of an economy behind their T3 to get a lot of it out as soon as it finishes, zerg can not slowly build up its big guns like terran or protoss, it needs to produce many of them at a time. Why does cost efficiency matter when you're ahead in economy and bases? Good work not reading what was in front of you. The whole point was that your not cost effective, that's why you need more bases to be safe. Hence why you can't T3 that quickly. i think that's an excuse for poor decisions, sloppy micro and bad scouting. zerg tech = 100 gas for lair, 100 gas for pit and 150 for hive. baseline, that's not too expensive. that you want X bases with Y units, that's your style of play. zerg units are only weak when toss is near to maxed out. Its not just about resources, its about the time it takes to get to the tech. Time it takes for Terran to get to Thors: Supply Depot - 30 seconds Barracks - 60 seconds Factory - 60 seconds Armory - 65 seconds (tech labs can be built any time between barracks to armory) Thats a total of 215 seconds to get Thor tech For Ultras, it takes Zerg: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Ultra Cavern - 65 seconds Thats a total of 355 seconds to get to Ultralisk tech Broodlords would take: Spawning Pool - 65 seconds Lair - 80 seconds Infestation pit - 50 seconds Hive - 100 seconds Greater Spire - 100 seconds (Spire can be built any time between Lair and Hive) Thats a total of 390 seconds. There is absolutely no way for a zerg to get to T3 tech before a Terran. This isnt even considering the fact that Terran has much more cost efficient units than Zerg does. Labeling things by tiers is completely misleading simply because of the time (and effort) it takes to get to those late tech units are totally disproportional EDIT: oh and for Colossi: Pylon - 25 Gateway - 65 Cyber Core - 50 Robotics Facility - 65 Robotics Bay - 65 Thats a total of 270 seconds for Colossi. Zerg Tier 3 is the slowest Horribly biased post. Firstly, barracks will be 65 seconds not 60. Secondly, you completely ignored that thors and colossus have to be built sequentially one at a time, whereas as soon as you get the tech zerg can build as many ultras as he can afford simultaneously. Thor and colossi and are not that useful in ones or 2s, you really need 3 or more to have a serious push capable of beating roaches, and if you take the amount of time taken to build those units the tech time is actually pretty balanced. The math he did is only adding up numbers. I think it's even worse in a real game, since Zerg tech to tier 3 MUCH slower than Terran or Protoss, independant of build times. The idea of "tiers" is something that has been brought over from WoW. There actually are no tiers, this is a real time strategy game. Warcraft 3 actually. The tier discussion is old as it came from WC3(where it was easily able to be mapped since each building went through 3 transformations) and even in BW/SC2 its only applicable to zerg in general. Trying to use tiers for protoss/terran is just pointless
There were distinct tiers in Age of Empires 1, so it definitely wasn't started by WC3... not that Age of Empires 1 was a serious e-sport, but still.
I think the main problem with tier discussion isn't that tiers don't exist (they sort of do, although aren't very easily or relevantly comparable cross-race), but that people still bizarrely think that higher tiers should necessarily be better than lower tiers.
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I have to say I really like the new score screen. No longer will we have check our opponents profile every single game. It just shows your opponents league next to their name in the score screen. Great change
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This infestor NP change seems pretty widely hated. I've heard that qxc and IdrA disapprove of the change, so maybe Blizzard will think twice.
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On September 10 2011 21:52 BushidoSnipr wrote:
This infestor NP change seems pretty widely hated. I've heard that qxc and IdrA disapprove of the change, so maybe Blizzard will think twice.
I kinda approve, it definitely shouldn't be able to target a mammaship at least, and the infestor is too much of a *works against everything* unit. I'm not so sure if this is the only way to approach it though, but we'll see :D
That IdrA disapproves of a zerg nerf is not something to wave about btw..
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On September 10 2011 21:03 Belial88 wrote:
^ Why do you think Zerg need a nerf? You realize that the reason protoss is getting owned in ZvP is not because of infestors or certain units, Protoss lost in this season's GSL because they went FFE against the new Nestea style fast third 100+ supply lair, and because they know how to handle stargate play.
2 seasons ago, we had multiple hatches killed by stargate openings and thirds denied. This season, Zerg's never cancelled their third against stargate, always got their third running against FFE, and stargates always ended up with Protoss behind 15 supply (with the exception of Kryix, who really didn't do it right and was up against MC).
Stargate openings no longer deny a 3rd. How does VR deny a 3rd when a Z builds 1 spore and has 1 queen there. Seriously, a spore is cheap and stops both Stargate and DTs. So builds designed to deny 3rds, stopped working, leaving a 1 base vs 3 scenario.
If the 1 base builds you keep suggesting worked, P players would be doing them. I checked you post history tho, and it seems like you have a long history of going around talking about how Zerg is incredibly weak and any nerf against zerg is unfair.
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Neural parasite with the recent change should have no up front mana cost and should deplete 1 pt of mana per second like cloak. It's the only way NP is going to be frequently used.
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On September 10 2011 21:15 Loodah wrote:
I think the main issue with protoss right now is that they can't find a composition that wins a 200 / 200 engagement against either race in the late game. If I max out on colossus / stalker / temp - I still lose convincingly against brood infestor as long as I'm not way way ahead on upgrades (which I shouldn't be). Then the zerg can also remax much more quickly. That doesn't make any sense. I can try to get air units, but infestors already are the best answer to air units for zerg. Our twilight upgrades are useless because of fungal. Our upgrades (after the patch) are turned against us by the only units we have that actually scale decently with upgrades ( colossus).
We are the race that has trouble defending multiple locations because our units suck in small numbers. By default we should be the race with the most powerful maxxed army. Just doesn't hold true any more because other races are actually learning how to use their incredibly powerful spell casters.
Also, there's not much we can do to pressure the late lair other than DT rush or stargate rush which are both easily nullified by queens and spores. Either that or two base all ins - which are the only options with decent win percentages. It's really hard to play a macro game against a zerg who gets the max number of drones in 12 minutes and then pumps nonstop units.
Dont engage broodlord infestor etc. Kill bases and try to catch them off guard. Blink stalkers ftw. Its same idea with tank pushes.
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On September 10 2011 21:52 BushidoSnipr wrote:
This infestor NP change seems pretty widely hated. I've heard that qxc and IdrA disapprove of the change, so maybe Blizzard will think twice.
IdrA doesnt approve of a zerg nerf? I dont believe you
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On September 10 2011 22:02 mutantmagnet wrote:
Neural parasite with the recent change should have no up front mana cost and should deplete 1 pt of mana per second like cloak. It's the only way NP is going to be frequently used.
We already have quite a long time for neural parasite, I dont think this would make much difference.
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On September 10 2011 21:58 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 21:03 Belial88 wrote:
^ Why do you think Zerg need a nerf? You realize that the reason protoss is getting owned in ZvP is not because of infestors or certain units, Protoss lost in this season's GSL because they went FFE against the new Nestea style fast third 100+ supply lair, and because they know how to handle stargate play.
2 seasons ago, we had multiple hatches killed by stargate openings and thirds denied. This season, Zerg's never cancelled their third against stargate, always got their third running against FFE, and stargates always ended up with Protoss behind 15 supply (with the exception of Kryix, who really didn't do it right and was up against MC). Stargate openings no longer deny a 3rd. How does VR deny a 3rd when a Z builds 1 spore and has 1 queen there. Seriously, a spore is cheap and stops both Stargate and DTs. So builds designed to deny 3rds, stopped working, leaving a 1 base vs 3 scenario. If the 1 base builds you keep suggesting worked, P players would be doing them. I checked you post history tho, and it seems like you have a long history of going around talking about how Zerg is incredibly weak and any nerf against zerg is unfair.
1 spore + queen alone doesn't stop void rays or DT's. What has changed is the overall map size, bigger maps tend to make 1 base play weaker against Zerg because 1 spore + queen can hold long enough until Zerg gets something else, like a bunch of hydras in the void ray case. It's a thin edge between Zerg loosing the entire expansion and protoss being far behind.
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