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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
The reason why terran all-ins are more powerful than protoss or zerg ones is NOT the mule - it's the SCV. Not because they have 5 more hp than other workers and not that they can repair themselves.
Simply because they work so well in combination which the basic terran military unit - the marine - which is RANGED. SCVs can be used as a meatshield for marines, while you cannot use probes as a meatshield for zealots or drones for zerglings - they'd just get in the way. Also, marines do very high damage and have little hp for it, so they benefit hugely from an effective meatshield. Basic T or P ranged units have quite high hp for little damage in comparison (roaches or stalkers), so they don't really need a meatshield.
The synergy between marine and SCV meatshield is the ONLY reason why terran allins are so powerful, it has absolutely nothing to do with mules. Actually, if terran just had as many workers as T or P and no mules at all, their allins would be even more powerful.
I don't know any effective solution to this though. Maybe give one unit that can't be used offensively a super-powerful anti-worker attack (static defense maybe).
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On August 28 2011 19:24 Lurk wrote:
The reason why terran all-ins are more powerful than protoss or zerg ones is NOT the mule - it's the SCV. Not because they have 5 more hp than other workers and not that they can repair themselves.
Simply because they work so well in combination which the basic terran military unit - the marine - which is RANGED. SCVs can be used as a meatshield for marines, while you cannot use probes as a meatshield for zealots or drones for zerglings - they'd just get in the way. Also, marines do very high damage and have little hp for it, so they benefit hugely from an effective meatshield. Basic T or P ranged units have quite high hp for little damage in comparison (roaches or stalkers), so they don't really need a meatshield.
The synergy between marine and SCV meatshield is the ONLY reason why terran allins are so powerful, it has absolutely nothing to do with mules. Actually, if terran just had as many workers as T or P and no mules at all, their allins would be even more powerful.
I don't know any effective solution to this though. Maybe give one unit that can't be used offensively a super-powerful anti-worker attack (static defense maybe).
So what you're saying is that roach drone and stalker probe allins are strong?
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On August 28 2011 19:14 Jesushooves wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 18:49 usethis2 wrote:
Then let's make it fair such that Terran can't pull SCVs for attacking purposes. Tweak the programming so SCVs can only repair stationary mech units.
Wow.......Just.....wow....I'm going to stop posting in this thread now.
Of course since you have no argument. It is real simple. When you and your opponents have 15 workers and limited production facilities, that's when your mules shine most. But once you and your opponents both have 80 workers extra 10 workers don't matter much. (And at that point Terrans do actually need SCVs to do other works than simply mining)
That's why when asked for advice Korean Terrans emphasize the importance of early aggressioin -when mules efficiency is at its peak. (and that includes all-ins)
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On August 28 2011 19:30 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 19:24 Lurk wrote:
The reason why terran all-ins are more powerful than protoss or zerg ones is NOT the mule - it's the SCV. Not because they have 5 more hp than other workers and not that they can repair themselves.
Simply because they work so well in combination which the basic terran military unit - the marine - which is RANGED. SCVs can be used as a meatshield for marines, while you cannot use probes as a meatshield for zealots or drones for zerglings - they'd just get in the way. Also, marines do very high damage and have little hp for it, so they benefit hugely from an effective meatshield. Basic T or P ranged units have quite high hp for little damage in comparison (roaches or stalkers), so they don't really need a meatshield.
The synergy between marine and SCV meatshield is the ONLY reason why terran allins are so powerful, it has absolutely nothing to do with mules. Actually, if terran just had as many workers as T or P and no mules at all, their allins would be even more powerful.
I don't know any effective solution to this though. Maybe give one unit that can't be used offensively a super-powerful anti-worker attack (static defense maybe). So what you're saying is that roach drone and stalker probe allins are strong?
No, he says lings + drones and zealots + probes are less usefull than marines + scv's.
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On August 28 2011 19:36 Tef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 19:30 Dalavita wrote:On August 28 2011 19:24 Lurk wrote:
The reason why terran all-ins are more powerful than protoss or zerg ones is NOT the mule - it's the SCV. Not because they have 5 more hp than other workers and not that they can repair themselves.
Simply because they work so well in combination which the basic terran military unit - the marine - which is RANGED. SCVs can be used as a meatshield for marines, while you cannot use probes as a meatshield for zealots or drones for zerglings - they'd just get in the way. Also, marines do very high damage and have little hp for it, so they benefit hugely from an effective meatshield. Basic T or P ranged units have quite high hp for little damage in comparison (roaches or stalkers), so they don't really need a meatshield.
The synergy between marine and SCV meatshield is the ONLY reason why terran allins are so powerful, it has absolutely nothing to do with mules. Actually, if terran just had as many workers as T or P and no mules at all, their allins would be even more powerful.
I don't know any effective solution to this though. Maybe give one unit that can't be used offensively a super-powerful anti-worker attack (static defense maybe). So what you're saying is that roach drone and stalker probe allins are strong? No, he says lings + drones and zealots + probes are less usefull than marines + scv's.
Sure, however as far as allins go, you can get roaches and stalkers out fast enough that you could just allin with them as well.
So my question is.
Stalkes and probes, roaches and drones? #1 op?
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On August 28 2011 19:30 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 19:24 Lurk wrote:
The reason why terran all-ins are more powerful than protoss or zerg ones is NOT the mule - it's the SCV. Not because they have 5 more hp than other workers and not that they can repair themselves.
Simply because they work so well in combination which the basic terran military unit - the marine - which is RANGED. SCVs can be used as a meatshield for marines, while you cannot use probes as a meatshield for zealots or drones for zerglings - they'd just get in the way. Also, marines do very high damage and have little hp for it, so they benefit hugely from an effective meatshield. Basic T or P ranged units have quite high hp for little damage in comparison (roaches or stalkers), so they don't really need a meatshield.
The synergy between marine and SCV meatshield is the ONLY reason why terran allins are so powerful, it has absolutely nothing to do with mules. Actually, if terran just had as many workers as T or P and no mules at all, their allins would be even more powerful.
I don't know any effective solution to this though. Maybe give one unit that can't be used offensively a super-powerful anti-worker attack (static defense maybe). So what you're saying is that roach drone and stalker probe allins are strong?
As i said, roaches and stalkers are already quite robost, so they don't really need a meatshield. Marines are high damage and low hp, while stalkers and roaches are low damage and high hp.
A marine has 7 hp per dps.
A roach has 18 hp per dps (not accounting for armor)
A stalker has 23 hp per dps (not accounting for armor)
So stalker/probe and drone/roach will be more effective than zealot/probe or drone/ling but still not nearly as good as marine/scv.
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I think Lurk hit the nail on the head with this one.
All the Banshees and Tanks do in the 1-1-1 push is force the Protoss to engage the Marines on Terran's terms. The Tanks seige up and control space and the Banshees prevent AoE from being useful and force AA which is weak vs Marines. All they do is allow the Marines to do their job - ie destroy fucking everything. Quite often you'll see Protoss engage a 1-1-1 build and Terran will only have Marines left at the end. That is what Terran wants, as the Marines have so much DPS/health. The SCVs are just there to protect the Marines as well.
Good job Lurk, that made perfect logical sense 
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On August 28 2011 19:38 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 19:36 Tef wrote:On August 28 2011 19:30 Dalavita wrote:On August 28 2011 19:24 Lurk wrote:
The reason why terran all-ins are more powerful than protoss or zerg ones is NOT the mule - it's the SCV. Not because they have 5 more hp than other workers and not that they can repair themselves.
Simply because they work so well in combination which the basic terran military unit - the marine - which is RANGED. SCVs can be used as a meatshield for marines, while you cannot use probes as a meatshield for zealots or drones for zerglings - they'd just get in the way. Also, marines do very high damage and have little hp for it, so they benefit hugely from an effective meatshield. Basic T or P ranged units have quite high hp for little damage in comparison (roaches or stalkers), so they don't really need a meatshield.
The synergy between marine and SCV meatshield is the ONLY reason why terran allins are so powerful, it has absolutely nothing to do with mules. Actually, if terran just had as many workers as T or P and no mules at all, their allins would be even more powerful.
I don't know any effective solution to this though. Maybe give one unit that can't be used offensively a super-powerful anti-worker attack (static defense maybe). So what you're saying is that roach drone and stalker probe allins are strong? No, he says lings + drones and zealots + probes are less usefull than marines + scv's. Sure, however as far as allins go, you can get roaches and stalkers out fast enough that you could just allin with them as well. So my question is. Stalkes and probes, roaches and drones? #1 op?
As I play with Zerg I don't find roach allin to be any good. Mostly because drones are useless against Zealots and Marines, whereas workers are good against Zerglings. I have used Roach + Drones for all-ins in ZvZ though.
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On August 28 2011 19:46 SeaSwift wrote:I think Lurk hit the nail on the head with this one. All the Banshees and Tanks do in the 1-1-1 push is force the Protoss to engage the Marines on Terran's terms. The Tanks seige up and control space and the Banshees prevent AoE from being useful and force AA which is weak vs Marines. All they do is allow the Marines to do their job - ie destroy fucking everything. Quite often you'll see Protoss engage a 1-1-1 build and Terran will only have Marines left at the end. That is what Terran wants, as the Marines have so much DPS/health. The SCVs are just there to protect the Marines as well. Good job Lurk, that made perfect logical sense
I have a question. It seems getting colossus isn't viable as you will only get one out in time. But do Protosses focus fire the marines or tanks with the collosus? That should have a significant impact if the above is true.
Also, why hasn't any Protoss tried to skip the warpgate and build directly from the gateways. You build faster from those, right? And since you don't want to be offensive anyway I don't see why warp gates are that important. Maybe hallucination could be more useful?
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On August 28 2011 19:38 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 19:36 Tef wrote:On August 28 2011 19:30 Dalavita wrote:On August 28 2011 19:24 Lurk wrote:
The reason why terran all-ins are more powerful than protoss or zerg ones is NOT the mule - it's the SCV. Not because they have 5 more hp than other workers and not that they can repair themselves.
Simply because they work so well in combination which the basic terran military unit - the marine - which is RANGED. SCVs can be used as a meatshield for marines, while you cannot use probes as a meatshield for zealots or drones for zerglings - they'd just get in the way. Also, marines do very high damage and have little hp for it, so they benefit hugely from an effective meatshield. Basic T or P ranged units have quite high hp for little damage in comparison (roaches or stalkers), so they don't really need a meatshield.
The synergy between marine and SCV meatshield is the ONLY reason why terran allins are so powerful, it has absolutely nothing to do with mules. Actually, if terran just had as many workers as T or P and no mules at all, their allins would be even more powerful.
I don't know any effective solution to this though. Maybe give one unit that can't be used offensively a super-powerful anti-worker attack (static defense maybe). So what you're saying is that roach drone and stalker probe allins are strong? No, he says lings + drones and zealots + probes are less usefull than marines + scv's. Sure, however as far as allins go, you can get roaches and stalkers out fast enough that you could just allin with them as well. So my question is. Stalkes and probes, roaches and drones? #1 op?
The answer is obvious - marines produce by far the most dps. And yes, they're also the most fragile unit but that's irrelevant due to workers soaking up the damage.
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one my freand told me hi is in master ligue... that one whay of nerfing 1-1-1 is to nerf marines hp to 40... and for shild to add +15 hp... so in begining to marines insted of having 45 to have 40 hp...
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On August 28 2011 05:30 mburke05 wrote:
i cant tell if youre some super biased toss homeboy or if youre trolling.
either way not funny.
I don't play toss. I may not be on the receiving end of this imbalance, but it's pretty obvious for anyone to see.
Well, anyone except Terrans like you who cling to all those little random buffs that you got since BW because Blizzard wanted to be nice to all the noobs who would pick up T.
There was absolutely no reason that the factory mineral cost should be cut down by 50, or factory and starport build times decreased. Terran infantry got stronger, not weaker, so there was no reason Terrans needed to tech faster. Little things like this, and random free stuff like +5 marine hp/increased marine attack speed/free marine range (Zergling - nerfed, Zealot - buffed+nerfed, Marine - buffed?!), are why Terran early game is hilariously poorly balanced in SC2.
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On August 28 2011 19:56 Tef wrote:
...
Also, why hasn't any Protoss tried to skip the warpgate and build directly from the gateways. You build faster from those, right? And since you don't want to be offensive anyway I don't see why warp gates are that important. Maybe hallucination could be more useful?
If i recall correctly warp gates "build" the unit 5 sec faster then gateways since while the unit is warping in the cool-down for the next unit has already started
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SCVs can no longer repair themselves while inside a Bunker or Medivac
i didn't know that lol:D
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They could nerf mules in a lot of ways. Add a cooldown to casting them, make them cost half energy/half efficiency (more apm), have them not mine so much on gold patches. I think all of those are nice changes and regardless of anything Blizzard will have to do something about mules in the expansion anyway.
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On August 28 2011 19:24 Lurk wrote:
The reason why terran all-ins are more powerful than protoss or zerg ones is NOT the mule - it's the SCV. Not because they have 5 more hp than other workers and not that they can repair themselves.
Simply because they work so well in combination which the basic terran military unit - the marine - which is RANGED. SCVs can be used as a meatshield for marines, while you cannot use probes as a meatshield for zealots or drones for zerglings - they'd just get in the way. Also, marines do very high damage and have little hp for it, so they benefit hugely from an effective meatshield. Basic T or P ranged units have quite high hp for little damage in comparison (roaches or stalkers), so they don't really need a meatshield.
The synergy between marine and SCV meatshield is the ONLY reason why terran allins are so powerful, it has absolutely nothing to do with mules. Actually, if terran just had as many workers as T or P and no mules at all, their allins would be even more powerful.
I don't know any effective solution to this though. Maybe give one unit that can't be used offensively a super-powerful anti-worker attack (static defense maybe).
Also, the warp-ins from the money the Probes will mine is almost always better than the actual Probes in combat.
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As a terran player i feel the blueflame nerf was needed, they were just too great in terms of harassing mineral lines and maybe all you mech terrans will have to change ur play style(TvT).
seeker missile speed buff is nice but i feel like it wont change much the range of the seeker missile is the problem imo.
Barracks build time change is not understandable to me it's already tight sometimes when you miss a double proxxy gate or someone doing blind 6 pool.
Immmortal range was needed cus of how they always manage to get in the back due to bad control of the protoss (no point intended. cough*)
Blink reaserach time nerf comes is odd to me
festor nerf is needed but i don't feel like the change was huge as its now 10dps vs armored instead of 11.5...
Overseer gas reduce was needed but would've been op without energy change so that's well done.
Ultralisk build time is good but i thought the reason zerg didnt use ultras was cus they are supposedly bad...
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On August 28 2011 21:16 Grumbels wrote:
They could nerf mules in a lot of ways. Add a cooldown to casting them, make them cost half energy/half efficiency (more apm), have them not mine so much on gold patches. I think all of those are nice changes and regardless of anything Blizzard will have to do something about mules in the expansion anyway.
I personally think this is the biggest strength of terran and the biggest source of their dominance.
Mules mine 30 minerals per trip, wich is equivalent to 6 workers and that is really big early game because you have a big income bonus fast, and on equal number of bases/worker, even on full saturated bases, Mules still give another 6 worker advantage per orbital without hurting SCV mining and in very very late game, they can still mine minerals without having worker supply.
Edit: Seems that they are equal to a bit over 3 workers since they have a mining time 2.05 time longer than an SCV.
That doubled by the fact that terrans have powerful DPS mineral dumping units (Marines and Hellions mainly) makes them very resilient and powerfull. they can Tech and produce as much as their opponent while dumping additionnal minerals into a truckload of marines which are as effective in small numbers then in a massing fashion.
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On August 28 2011 21:59 Hypz wrote:
Immmortal range was needed cus of how they always manage to get in the back due to bad control of the protoss (no point intended. cough*)
Immortals are so intimidating for marauders, tanks, stalkers and roaches that putting them in front line is just offering your highest DPS unit on a silver Plate to take. With the upgrade range, they will actually be able fire AND survive.
it might be viable to use more of them before teching to Colossi which I think everybody is getting a little tired of. And immortals seemed like good units before you actually use them...
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EPT
