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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 28 2011 07:07 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 07:05 statikg wrote:
Hellion nerf is garbage, thanks for ruining meching for TvZ and TvP blizzard, maybe you could be a little creative with the solution if the real nerf reason was early game problems but I think it was really working itself out anyway. People were no longer just lining em up. it actually doesn't affect mech. BFH kill lings and zealots in the same shots pre-nerf. They just dont' kill workers in 2 shots anymore. Really wish people would look at the actual changes instead of thinking now mech is useless when it kills the light units in the same amount of shots -_-
No blade! I already told you, it takes 9 shots instead of 7, thats a big fucking deal!
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I never thought the BARRACKS was an op structure. Won't be able to block cross map scouting svcs anymore -.-
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TERRAN
Barracks
Build time increased from 60 to 65.
I am so hopeful that this actually makes ZvT opening games more than a coin flip.
Been waiting for a fucking year.
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I wish they would fix the issue the ghost snipe ability to be able to shift click it.
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I still want them to work more on the infestors. Can't let Zerg mass infestors and lings in ZvP. That's just too cost effective and hard to counter even HTs can't have enough energies to fb all the infestor and storm. That and ghost are my only wish in the next patch. Then just need carriers buff and the game is perfectly balance lol
j/k but seriously hope.
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On August 28 2011 14:31 Jermstuddog wrote:I am so hopeful that this actually makes ZvT opening games more than a coin flip. Been waiting for a fucking year.
Explain the coinflip? if you get 11/11'ed pull drones or don't 15 hatch...
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On August 28 2011 14:43 tuho12345 wrote:
I still want them to work more on the infestors. Can't let Zerg mass infestors and lings in ZvP. That's just too cost effective and hard to counter even HTs can't have enough energies to fb all the infestor and storm. That and ghost are my only wish in the next patch. Then just need carriers buff and the game is perfectly balance lol
j/k but seriously hope.
I don't understand how any Protoss can have trouble with infestor/ling if you scout it and react accordingly. One HT with full energy can take out 4 infestors. And with storm lings evaporate immediately. I think the fungal nerf will help Protoss's a lot but I don't think infestor/ling was ever overpowered. What was overpowered was infestor + broodlord/ultralisk.
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On August 28 2011 14:50 zJayy962 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 14:43 tuho12345 wrote:
I still want them to work more on the infestors. Can't let Zerg mass infestors and lings in ZvP. That's just too cost effective and hard to counter even HTs can't have enough energies to fb all the infestor and storm. That and ghost are my only wish in the next patch. Then just need carriers buff and the game is perfectly balance lol
j/k but seriously hope. I don't understand how any Protoss can have trouble with infestor/ling if you scout it and react accordingly. One HT with full energy can take out 4 infestors. And with storm lings evaporate immediately. I think the fungal nerf will help Protoss's a lot but I don't think infestor/ling was ever overpowered. What was overpowered was infestor + broodlord/ultralisk.
No khaydarian amulet? How could HTs could have full energy around the timing attack by Zerg anyway? Invest in HTs = fewer units with range = more zealots, but infestor just need to hide behind mass lings and FG. HTs have no chance to move up and fb. Even in warprism it could easily get FG and can't drop. That's just my problems with this combo. Colossus is ok, but still really not good enough tho.
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On August 28 2011 14:50 zJayy962 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 14:43 tuho12345 wrote:
I still want them to work more on the infestors. Can't let Zerg mass infestors and lings in ZvP. That's just too cost effective and hard to counter even HTs can't have enough energies to fb all the infestor and storm. That and ghost are my only wish in the next patch. Then just need carriers buff and the game is perfectly balance lol
j/k but seriously hope. I don't understand how any Protoss can have trouble with infestor/ling if you scout it and react accordingly. One HT with full energy can take out 4 infestors. And with storm lings evaporate immediately. I think the fungal nerf will help Protoss's a lot but I don't think infestor/ling was ever overpowered. What was overpowered was infestor + broodlord/ultralisk.
I stopped reading once u said one HT with full energy.
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On August 28 2011 14:49 kodas wrote:
or don't 15 hatch...
That's like telling a terran "don't go 15 OC, you need use that money to make an extra barracks, just in case..."
Would you honestly accept that as good advice?
Terrans have got away for a year with thinking that 2 rax is punishing a greedy zerg when all zerg is trying to do is keep up with the insane economy that MULEs give.
15 hatch is a necessity...
I don't know why I bother though, I'm about to see 15 responses with pretty much a baseless "NO, YOU'RE WRONG!!"
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On August 28 2011 15:09 Jermstuddog wrote:That's like telling a terran "don't go 15 OC, you need use that money to make an extra barracks, just in case..." Would you honestly accept that as good advice? Terrans have got away for a year with thinking that 2 rax is punishing a greedy zerg when all zerg is trying to do is keep up with the insane economy that MULEs give.15 hatch is a necessity... I don't know why I bother though, I'm about to see 15 responses with pretty much a baseless "NO, YOU'RE WRONG!!"
Orbital command costs 3 SCVs and takes the time that it would have taken to produce 2 SCVs.
Constant MULE (i.e., no "free" scans) = 4 SCVs
Yeah. Real insane. One whole extra worker.
I'd gladly trade MULEs for a free expo.
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On August 28 2011 15:27 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 15:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 28 2011 14:49 kodas wrote:
or don't 15 hatch... That's like telling a terran "don't go 15 OC, you need use that money to make an extra barracks, just in case..." Would you honestly accept that as good advice? Terrans have got away for a year with thinking that 2 rax is punishing a greedy zerg when all zerg is trying to do is keep up with the insane economy that MULEs give.15 hatch is a necessity... I don't know why I bother though, I'm about to see 15 responses with pretty much a baseless "NO, YOU'RE WRONG!!" Orbital command costs 3 SCVs and takes the time that it would have taken to produce 2 SCVs. Constant MULE (i.e., no "free" scans) = 4 SCVs Yeah. Real insane. One whole extra worker. I'd gladly trade MULEs for a free expo.
Actually it IS pretty insane, and basically the basis for the strenght of every Terran all-in.
Hell... that doesn't even cover the actual situation.
MULEs are ACTUALLY 4 supply-free, saturation-free, refreshable workers, every 90 seconds, wherever you want, oh yeah... and it only costs the same as 3 workers and takes the build time of 2.
A 1 base Terran can easily match or surpass a 2 base zergs economy for at least the first 8 minutes of a standard starcraft 2 game. All while simultaneously teching AND attacking.
If you need evidence, pull up any pro-level replay.
You'd be trading a lot...
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On August 28 2011 15:43 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 15:27 _Search_ wrote:On August 28 2011 15:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 28 2011 14:49 kodas wrote:
or don't 15 hatch... That's like telling a terran "don't go 15 OC, you need use that money to make an extra barracks, just in case..." Would you honestly accept that as good advice? Terrans have got away for a year with thinking that 2 rax is punishing a greedy zerg when all zerg is trying to do is keep up with the insane economy that MULEs give.15 hatch is a necessity... I don't know why I bother though, I'm about to see 15 responses with pretty much a baseless "NO, YOU'RE WRONG!!" Orbital command costs 3 SCVs and takes the time that it would have taken to produce 2 SCVs. Constant MULE (i.e., no "free" scans) = 4 SCVs Yeah. Real insane. One whole extra worker. I'd gladly trade MULEs for a free expo. Actually it IS pretty insane, and basically the basis for the strenght of every Terran all-in. Hell... that doesn't even cover the actual situation. MULEs are ACTUALLY 4 supply-free, saturation-free, refreshable workers, every 90 seconds, wherever you want, oh yeah... and it only costs the same as 3 workers and takes the build time of 2. A 1 base Terran can easily match or surpass a 2 base zergs economy for at least the first 8 minutes of a standard starcraft 2 game. All while simultaneously teching AND attacking. If you need evidence, pull up any pro-level replay. You'd be trading a lot...
I'm not saying don't expand, you realize that, watch most of NesTeas tvz he will 14pool/gas almost everytime he thinks hes gonna get 11/11 and crushes the push everytime, if you wanna play safe, just hatch on 20, you won't be behind at all. EDIT: also when a protoss proxy 2 gates you, the safe thing to do is skip orbital for a 2nd barracks...
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Well on the other hand, have you seen what happens if the zerg gets away with the fast expand in terms of economy? As long as zerg late game takes a hit (fungal rebalancing for example) I'm willing to give up some early game pressure for more late game potential.
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On August 28 2011 16:23 Blackk wrote:
Well on the other hand, have you seen what happens if the zerg gets away with the fast expand in terms of economy? As long as zerg late game takes a hit (fungal rebalancing for example) I'm willing to give up some early game pressure for more late game potential.
They're called Ghosts, and you already have them...
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On August 28 2011 14:43 tuho12345 wrote:
I still want them to work more on the infestors. Can't let Zerg mass infestors and lings in ZvP. That's just too cost effective and hard to counter even HTs can't have enough energies to fb all the infestor and storm. That and ghost are my only wish in the next patch. Then just need carriers buff and the game is perfectly balance lol
j/k but seriously hope.
I have a question for you. If Zerg makes 20 infestors and 100 lings, couldn't you easily counter that with 20 split High Templars and 35 Charge Zealots? Those two unit compositions cost the exact same. It isn't even an unreasonable composition... Hell change 6 HTs (300/900) into Sentries and you have your average Protoss FE base anyway.
If Zerg is putting all his gas into Infestors, put all your into Templar. It should be fair for your five 50/150 unit to kill off 20 of my 100/150 units. Just like how the Mutalisk is listed as bad against the Stalker, if I have twice as many mutas as you have stalkers I should clean up; If I have twice as many Infestors as you have HTs, I should clean up.
I have NEVER seen a Protoss player get as many HTs as Zerg gets Infestors. Just because something is a listed counter doesn't mean it should autokill all things it counters.
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On August 28 2011 15:43 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 15:27 _Search_ wrote:On August 28 2011 15:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 28 2011 14:49 kodas wrote:
or don't 15 hatch... That's like telling a terran "don't go 15 OC, you need use that money to make an extra barracks, just in case..." Would you honestly accept that as good advice? Terrans have got away for a year with thinking that 2 rax is punishing a greedy zerg when all zerg is trying to do is keep up with the insane economy that MULEs give.15 hatch is a necessity... I don't know why I bother though, I'm about to see 15 responses with pretty much a baseless "NO, YOU'RE WRONG!!" Orbital command costs 3 SCVs and takes the time that it would have taken to produce 2 SCVs. Constant MULE (i.e., no "free" scans) = 4 SCVs Yeah. Real insane. One whole extra worker. I'd gladly trade MULEs for a free expo. Actually it IS pretty insane, and basically the basis for the strenght of every Terran all-in. Hell... that doesn't even cover the actual situation. MULEs are ACTUALLY 4 supply-free, saturation-free, refreshable workers, every 90 seconds, wherever you want, oh yeah... and it only costs the same as 3 workers and takes the build time of 2. A 1 base Terran can easily match or surpass a 2 base zergs economy for at least the first 8 minutes of a standard starcraft 2 game. All while simultaneously teching AND attacking. If you need evidence, pull up any pro-level replay. You'd be trading a lot...
You need to play Terran before you qq any more about the MULE. Try playing Terran without using MULES and see how "even" in economy you are with a zerg or protoss. Except you'll realize how absurdly far behind you get.
Yes MULEs allow Terran all-ins to be slightly more effective than Z or P's all ins, but really, it's a necessity so we don't fall behind in every other game.
If there was no MULE then they'd have to buff marines or something. I'm sure you want that right?
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Mothership is so much better at casting spells now. It has a rather short casting distance, so now it doens't take forever to speed up and get there.
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EPT
