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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 28 2011 07:06 Existor wrote:
Some math here.
We all know, that 5 overseers can stop production or any upgrades forever in one structure.
5 overseers - 500 gas.
Energy regeneration is 0.5625.
Contaminate energy cost - 75.
75 / 0.5625 = 133.3 seconds - time to regenerate energy for one contaminate.
Contaminate lasts 30 seconds, so:
133.3 / 30 = 4.4 ~ 5, because for last contaminate (1-1-1-1-0.4) we need another overseer. So we need now 5 overseers for all time contaminate.
But with half decreased gas cost, we can build more Overseers. But what about increased contaminate energy cost?
125 / 0.5625 = 222.2 - time to regenerate energy for contaminate.
222.2 / 30 = 7,4 ~ 8, because last 0.4 overseer = 1 overseer.
8 Overseers = 400 gas.
tl;dr
For full contaminate we now need 100 less gas, but 450 more minerals.
So it's buffed by gas and nerfed by minerals.
8 overseers = 1200 minerals and 400 gas. But also more food.
Heres the thing, IMO if people were spending 5 overseers on the old times with the new costs they were still wasting time and resources, and apm
What building are you going to block perminantly for 750/250 and get your moneys worth for?
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On August 28 2011 07:56 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 07:06 Existor wrote:
Some math here.
We all know, that 5 overseers can stop production or any upgrades forever in one structure.
5 overseers - 500 gas.
Energy regeneration is 0.5625.
Contaminate energy cost - 75.
75 / 0.5625 = 133.3 seconds - time to regenerate energy for one contaminate.
Contaminate lasts 30 seconds, so:
133.3 / 30 = 4.4 ~ 5, because for last contaminate (1-1-1-1-0.4) we need another overseer. So we need now 5 overseers for all time contaminate.
But with half decreased gas cost, we can build more Overseers. But what about increased contaminate energy cost?
125 / 0.5625 = 222.2 - time to regenerate energy for contaminate.
222.2 / 30 = 7,4 ~ 8, because last 0.4 overseer = 1 overseer.
8 Overseers = 400 gas.
tl;dr
For full contaminate we now need 100 less gas, but 450 more minerals.
So it's buffed by gas and nerfed by minerals.
8 overseers = 1200 minerals and 400 gas. But also more food. Heres the thing, IMO if people were spending 5 overseers on the old times with the new costs they were still wasting time and resources, and apm What building are you going to block perminantly for 750/250 and get your moneys worth for?
It's not about that. This way you have more Overseers which you can place in areas. It makes zerg detection and scouting much stronger without strengthening contaminate. That's the point.
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On August 28 2011 08:04 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 07:56 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On August 28 2011 07:06 Existor wrote:
Some math here.
We all know, that 5 overseers can stop production or any upgrades forever in one structure.
5 overseers - 500 gas.
Energy regeneration is 0.5625.
Contaminate energy cost - 75.
75 / 0.5625 = 133.3 seconds - time to regenerate energy for one contaminate.
Contaminate lasts 30 seconds, so:
133.3 / 30 = 4.4 ~ 5, because for last contaminate (1-1-1-1-0.4) we need another overseer. So we need now 5 overseers for all time contaminate.
But with half decreased gas cost, we can build more Overseers. But what about increased contaminate energy cost?
125 / 0.5625 = 222.2 - time to regenerate energy for contaminate.
222.2 / 30 = 7,4 ~ 8, because last 0.4 overseer = 1 overseer.
8 Overseers = 400 gas.
tl;dr
For full contaminate we now need 100 less gas, but 450 more minerals.
So it's buffed by gas and nerfed by minerals.
8 overseers = 1200 minerals and 400 gas. But also more food. Heres the thing, IMO if people were spending 5 overseers on the old times with the new costs they were still wasting time and resources, and apm What building are you going to block perminantly for 750/250 and get your moneys worth for? It's not about that. This way you have more Overseers which you can place in areas. It makes zerg detection and scouting much stronger without strengthening contaminate. That's the point.
Precisely. Say you have a build that gets you to lair on one gas. The reduction in overseer cost is a roughly 25 second buff to the timing of your first overseer, and to any subsequent tech/units/upgrade. Or, looking at it another way, you can now scout your opponent for a delay of only 25 seconds to your tech/units/upgrade rather than ~50. Long term, this change just might have the biggest impact of any in the patch.
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if people really want to go mech and simply get attack upgrades then killing workers is just as easy as before. I think people will start experimenting with some fast armory upgrade builds like TLO used to do. Why spend 150/150 when you can spend 100/100 on +1 and later get +2 without having to stop double hellion production, and getting the armory faster allows you more time to get out thors if you need to.
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On August 28 2011 07:32 Xapti wrote:
medivacs can keep marines alive for an infinite amount of time already, since they heal at the same rate FG does damage. This change makes it so that medivacs can now out-heal FG on marines (with not much difference though).
Yes they can outheal it but unless you have 1 medivac for each of your marines, the change doesn't matter, marine packs will still die with 2 FGs.
It was only changed so that Vikings need instead of 3,now 4 FGs to die,to soften up the Broodlord/Infestor domination over terran.
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All non-terrans rejoice! BF Hellions dont totally own a worker line now!
On another note, F YEAH MOTHERSHIPPPPPP
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I think i'm most excited about the warp prism buff it makes them much more useable.
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Wow I don't know what race to play anymore =(, I was thinking about going protoss but now zerg seems to be so much stronger with bfh nerf. I am so glad Blizzard actually cares enough to fix mothership lag, it's so annoying in team games.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
I was thinking about going protoss but now zerg seems to be so much stronger with bfh nerf.
How zergs are stronger with BFH nerf? Can you explain me? You can still 2 shot workers, 2 shot zerglings. So whats changed?
Ah, I understand what changed. You morale and the desire to play as terrans. But you can't do simple math, that helions are still good harass unit.
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On August 28 2011 09:26 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +I was thinking about going protoss but now zerg seems to be so much stronger with bfh nerf. How zergs are stronger with BFH nerf? Can you explain me? You can still 2 shot workers, 2 shot zerglings. So whats changed? Ah, I understand what changed. You morale and the desire to play as terrans. But you can't do simple math, that helions are still good harass unit.
Hellions with BF will do 19 damage. Workers have 40hp. Who can't do math numbnuts?
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anyone think that mass changelings will be an annoyance from now on?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On August 28 2011 09:30 mousepad wrote:
Hellions with BF will do 19 damage. Workers have 40hp. Who can't do math numbnuts?
Okay, my mistake. Never played terran. But you can still drop and your harass to workers will be 2.5 seconds longer. Is it really a HUGE problem?
anyone think that mass changelings will be an annoyance from now on?
Why not? They're never used on top level. 2 times more changelings will scout better, than one changeling. It helps a lot to zergs with scouting. And I like thet. Blizzard finally adressed, that zergs have some problems with scouting on top levels.
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On August 28 2011 09:34 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 09:30 mousepad wrote:
Hellions with BF will do 19 damage. Workers have 40hp. Who can't do math numbnuts? Okay, my mistake. Never played terran. But you can still drop and your harass to workers will be 2.5 seconds longer. Is it really a HUGE problem? Why not? They're never used on top level. 2 times more changelings will scout better, than one changeling. It helps a lot to zergs with scouting. And I like thet. Blizzard finally adressed, that zergs have some problems with scouting on top levels.
The change to BF is a small nerf. This just adds slightly more time to respond and a greater risk-reward for the harasser's investment. I think its a needed change -- not sure if its too little or too much. I have noticed a lot of Zerg players (myself included) are getting used to hellion play, but still have trouble even when scouted or even with proper defenses up. This should prevent the advantage from falling too much in favor with Terran and give Zerg players a better chance at stabilizing.
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On August 25 2011 18:07 Gargara wrote:
"If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite."
So this is like, what? Warp prism? I don't get this one.
i want to say if you NP a stalker and it has 3 3 3 ups you get the 3 3 3 ups....
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 28 2011 10:06 ki11z0ne wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 18:07 Gargara wrote:
"If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite."
So this is like, what? Warp prism? I don't get this one. i want to say if you NP a stalker and it has 3 3 3 ups you get the 3 3 3 ups....
Yeah, it does keep upgrades, but as the person above said. It's with like the warp prism. I think if you NP'd one before, the other player would keep the power and still be able to warp in under it.
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in my opinion its an good patch
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The BFH hellion nerf is amazingly huge. Although it is probably needed, it is still a gigantic nerf for terran. For anyone who says it only takes 3 shots instead of 2 clearly don't watch the GSL enough, that shit matters a lot at the very top level. I can't believe the amount of 1/1/1 I am seeing in this MLG, it really takes the fun out of watching starcraft 
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I have been around the SC scene for a long time, seen a lot of balance changes, and new patches, and I have to say, I think this is the best one I have ever seen
General
Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1.
This is huge, and has been needed for a long time. A ramp is hardly a defensive tool in SC2, at least not the way it was considered in BW days. I feel this will make ramps more viable themselves, rather than relying on the wall off that is on top of the ramp.
PROTOSS
Immortal
Attack range increased from 5 to 6.
In many battles, you wold see a line of stalkers, with a few immortals in the back of the army running around doing nothing. Obviously it is a micro issue, however the alternative is to place your immortal directly into the front lines. This can be a good thing in some instances, but not the best option in others.
Mothership
Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375.
The Mothership’s Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate “Mothership Lag” issue when a Mothership comes online.
Motherships can like, move when things are killing it now?
Stalker
Blink research time increased from 110 to 140.
The timing attacks for blink stalkers were becoming riddic for pvz, and pvp as well in a sense. (I feel this change makes less sense pvp)
Warp Prism
Shields increased from 40 to 100.
A unit that always needed to be more viable. Thanks tyler!
TERRAN
Barracks
Build time increased from 60 to 65.
Small change, however terran has always been ungodly fast in the early game, with EVERYTHING that they do. This slows it all down. I think it is a great change to even out the early game.
Hellion
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
Perhaps a little severe, but I like the idea. Hellions were too much of a hard counter to too many units, and in many situations a relativly cheap and posssibly even luck based game changer.
Raven
Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953.
Well, lets see if its used now. Should be able to catch infestors... hint hint, terran.
ZERG
Infestor
Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored).
Yes, it needed a slight nerf, I think this is a good balance.
Overseer
Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50.
Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125.
Awesome. 100 gas to make an observer was a little over the top. Contaminate change keeps people from massing overseer as much as they would otherwise for contaminate builds.
Ultralisk
Build time decreased from 70 to 55.
Yesssssss! I hated how long it took for ultras to remass after you lost your army. Huge buff to Z late game IMO.
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On August 28 2011 10:15 Trealador wrote:The BFH hellion nerf is amazingly huge. Although it is probably needed, it is still a gigantic nerf for terran. For anyone who says it only takes 3 shots instead of 2 clearly don't watch the GSL enough, that shit matters a lot at the very top level. I can't believe the amount of 1/1/1 I am seeing in this MLG, it really takes the fun out of watching starcraft
It's really not. For being a QQ race I don't see all us zergs complaining about fungal taking one more shot to kill a whole bunch of things. Give/take.
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On August 28 2011 08:57 Plume wrote:
All non-terrans rejoice! BF Hellions dont totally own a worker line now!
On another note, F YEAH MOTHERSHIPPPPPP
I think Terran's are the ones actually rejoicing. TvT was the match that was being ruined.
TvZ will remain largely unaffected and hellions were never used in TvP anyways.
Terrans have worker lines too, you know. And ours are much more vulnerable to hellions.
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EPT
