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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
An interesting patch for sure - looks like Bliz is trying to nerf more generic build types with this one.
From what I can see, the protoss buff to immortals is to help counter the Terran ever popular and subjectively overpowered 111 Marine Tank Banshee push. Mothership buff feels like it is there to encourage MS usage, but I don't think any decent or self respecting protoss start using it just due to an acceleration buff - it just isn't enough given it's limited abilities - especially in PvZ where a NP just negates having a MS.
I'm not happy about the stalker's blink research being lengthened, but I feel its to try and even out the PvP blink stalker timing push being fairly strong, but I dont feel that fast blink is that strong as it is right now, current patch.
Warp prism is a cool tool, and the slight buff will help, but the things are still made of paper, and really don't come into their own until you get the lovely speed upgrade.
The Barracks 5 second longer build time feels odd to me, I'm not sure if the reasoning on this one.
Hellion nerf feels like it is to just slightly lessen their effectiveness, as largely a lot of terran openers use hellions, possibly the nerf is to force different strats from terrans.
I like the Raven Seeker Missile buff - I hope it gets more usage. Very cool to see hit.
I like the FG change being a flat rate damage, and it is a minor nerf.
Overseer buff is good, cost of detection should be relative to other races, as terran as free detection (scans) and Protoss is fairly cost effective with observers, other than the cost and build time of the Robo bay.
Ultralisk buff feels the same as the MS buff - Bliz saying please use this unit more, but with Immortals getting the range upgrade, I feel the protoss buff negates the Ultralisk build time buff. Kinda of a silly buff IMO.
Looks to be a decent patch, should change it up quite a bit if it is not changed for actual release.
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On August 28 2011 16:34 genius_man16 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 15:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 28 2011 15:27 _Search_ wrote:On August 28 2011 15:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 28 2011 14:49 kodas wrote:
or don't 15 hatch... That's like telling a terran "don't go 15 OC, you need use that money to make an extra barracks, just in case..." Would you honestly accept that as good advice? Terrans have got away for a year with thinking that 2 rax is punishing a greedy zerg when all zerg is trying to do is keep up with the insane economy that MULEs give.15 hatch is a necessity... I don't know why I bother though, I'm about to see 15 responses with pretty much a baseless "NO, YOU'RE WRONG!!" Orbital command costs 3 SCVs and takes the time that it would have taken to produce 2 SCVs. Constant MULE (i.e., no "free" scans) = 4 SCVs Yeah. Real insane. One whole extra worker. I'd gladly trade MULEs for a free expo. Actually it IS pretty insane, and basically the basis for the strenght of every Terran all-in. Hell... that doesn't even cover the actual situation. MULEs are ACTUALLY 4 supply-free, saturation-free, refreshable workers, every 90 seconds, wherever you want, oh yeah... and it only costs the same as 3 workers and takes the build time of 2. A 1 base Terran can easily match or surpass a 2 base zergs economy for at least the first 8 minutes of a standard starcraft 2 game. All while simultaneously teching AND attacking. If you need evidence, pull up any pro-level replay. You'd be trading a lot... You need to play Terran before you qq any more about the MULE. Try playing Terran without using MULES and see how "even" in economy you are with a zerg or protoss. Except you'll realize how absurdly far behind you get. Yes MULEs allow Terran all-ins to be slightly more effective than Z or P's all ins, but really, it's a necessity so we don't fall behind in every other game. If there was no MULE then they'd have to buff marines or something. I'm sure you want that right?
infallible logic there...
On August 28 2011 15:09 Jermstuddog wrote:
I don't know why I bother though, I'm about to see 15 responses with pretty much a baseless "NO, YOU'RE WRONG!!"
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lol- my friend is a high master zerg and he always laughs when other zergs complain about mules. He thinks it's funny because terran wouldn't be able to do shit without mules, and he knows it. Mules are there to keep you even with zerg and protoss ability to create workers faster, it doesn't put you ahead.
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On August 28 2011 16:39 Jesushooves wrote:
lol- my friend is a high master zerg and he always laughs when other zergs complain about mules. He thinks it's funny because terran wouldn't be able to do shit without mules, and he knows it. Mules are there to keep you even with zerg and protoss ability to create workers faster, it doesn't put you ahead.
But what it does mean is
1: terran can get more income on N bases than the other two races (by a pretty significant margin)
2: In the late game, terran can get away with 8-16 (or more, if they're mass-orbiting, but that's not common, and thats a whole different ballgame cause of how huge an investment it is.)
3: Terran benefit significantly more from gold bases than the other two races.
I'm not sure how the numbers would work out, but if mules couldn't overlap mining SCVs, that might fix 1 and 3 (but could open a whole new can of worms, which would require testing to make sure it's ok)
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The problem also is that they prevent terrans from being all in after pulling 10 scv fors an supposed allin attack, or keep the terran on equal economy as zerg/protoss if they lose a bunch of scv's to an harrassement.
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On August 28 2011 16:49 AsnSensation wrote:
The problem also is that they prevent terrans from being all in after pulling 10 scv fors an supposed allin attack, or keep the terran on equal economy as zerg/protoss if they lose a bunch of scv's to an harrassement.
if terran pulls 10 scvs and doesn't kill an equal amount of workers from zerg or protoss with them, terran is significantly behind. The only way to come back from it is when toss or zerg makes some ridiculously stupid mistake, terran doesn't come back just by being "imbalanced".
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On August 28 2011 16:49 AsnSensation wrote:
The problem also is that they prevent terrans from being all in after pulling 10 scv fors an supposed allin attack, or keep the terran on equal economy as zerg/protoss if they lose a bunch of scv's to an harrassement.
Protoss and Zerg can make workers faster than Terran can, though.
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lol, MULE discussion again? Noobs are always going to complain about the MULE because they just do not know how it works.
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meh immortal change is good but i'd rather have zealots get the passive speed bonus from zealot legs straight out of the gate.
would be nicer to have zealots considered a warrior instead of a damage tank / mineral sink / component of a wall in early game when toss is annoying to play
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On August 28 2011 16:27 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 16:23 Blackk wrote:
Well on the other hand, have you seen what happens if the zerg gets away with the fast expand in terms of economy? As long as zerg late game takes a hit (fungal rebalancing for example) I'm willing to give up some early game pressure for more late game potential. They're called Ghosts, and you already have them...
uh, ghosts have nothing to do with zerg economy. Unless you can do a mass-drop or prevent zerg from ever taking a base past their 3rd, zerg can simply pump mutaling since you let them 15hatch dronespam. Plus mutas/speedlings/creep/olords allow zerg to eyeball every expo on the minimap.
Zerg econ spikes up, instead of the bumpy ramp of terran/protoss ramp. Without mules/cboost on probes zerg could just run away with every game past the 12 minute mark, because there would be no way for terran/toss to keep up with zerg's income.
Hell, i've played games as Z where i trade armies with a terran, remax with ultra/ling and run out of money, go kill several bases since 5hatches way outproduce in speed and number the amount of terran reinforcements, and then after all that dies remax again on pure ling or ling/muta... Spawn larva+faster build times for zerg units=terran is screwed lategame.
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Fact is Terran is massively overpowered, in many many ways. This nerf in this patch IMO really just touches some BASIC items.
I'd love to see an EMP nerf (like 15 or 25 more energy required) as the EMP is grossly abused in TvP matches (basically negating shield usage) and yeah, I've heard the feedback with Templar argument blah blah blah - it shouldn't be about who can micro and snipe each others key unit to decide an entire match, regardless of how well either race or player played.
The biggest one is I would like to see a more dedicated tech path requirement for terran. with swapping of add-ons, terran can make all units except for just a few - BC, Ghosts and Thors. Otherwise the tech path is wide open, all off a cheap add-on. a simple nerf like 40 seconds more build time or more expense for the tech add-on would suffice. The reactor add-on is fine as it is.
Mules are a necessary evil, but at the same time, I don't think they should be able to double mine over-top of an SCV. One or the other at the mineral patch. Mass Muling gold patches is ridiculous. Unfortunately, Mules are the primary reason that Terran can all-in, and lose the battle, and still be in the game.
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On August 28 2011 17:56 Grimmyman123 wrote:
Fact is Terran is massively overpowered, in many many ways. This nerf in this patch IMO really just touches some BASIC items.
I'd love to see an EMP nerf (like 15 or 25 more energy required) as the EMP is grossly abused in TvP matches (basically negating shield usage) and yeah, I've heard the feedback with Templar argument blah blah blah - it shouldn't be about who can micro and snipe each others key unit to decide an entire match, regardless of how well either race or player played.
The biggest one is I would like to see a more dedicated tech path requirement for terran. with swapping of add-ons, terran can make all units except for just a few - BC, Ghosts and Thors. Otherwise the tech path is wide open, all off a cheap add-on. a simple nerf like 40 seconds more build time or more expense for the tech add-on would suffice. The reactor add-on is fine as it is.
Mules are a necessary evil, but at the same time, I don't think they should be able to double mine over-top of an SCV. One or the other at the mineral patch. Mass Muling gold patches is ridiculous. Unfortunately, Mules are the primary reason that Terran can all-in, and lose the battle, and still be in the game.
Can't tell if troll, or completely fucking retarded...
User was warned for this post
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United Kingdom12065 Posts
On August 28 2011 18:05 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 17:56 Grimmyman123 wrote:
Fact is Terran is massively overpowered, in many many ways. This nerf in this patch IMO really just touches some BASIC items.
I'd love to see an EMP nerf (like 15 or 25 more energy required) as the EMP is grossly abused in TvP matches (basically negating shield usage) and yeah, I've heard the feedback with Templar argument blah blah blah - it shouldn't be about who can micro and snipe each others key unit to decide an entire match, regardless of how well either race or player played.
The biggest one is I would like to see a more dedicated tech path requirement for terran. with swapping of add-ons, terran can make all units except for just a few - BC, Ghosts and Thors. Otherwise the tech path is wide open, all off a cheap add-on. a simple nerf like 40 seconds more build time or more expense for the tech add-on would suffice. The reactor add-on is fine as it is.
Mules are a necessary evil, but at the same time, I don't think they should be able to double mine over-top of an SCV. One or the other at the mineral patch. Mass Muling gold patches is ridiculous. Unfortunately, Mules are the primary reason that Terran can all-in, and lose the battle, and still be in the game. Can't tell if troll, or completely fucking retarded...
I really don't understand what that guy is going on about.EMP is perfect how it is, it's almost necessary as the standing protoss army is way stronger than anything I build in TvP, unless I go mech which is really hard to do down to mobility.
The whole tech lab swapping thing makes no sense as all zerg have to do is make the tech building like we do, then they build the units out of their bases and require no additional production facilities (other than late game when you get macro hatches).
If Mules couldn't mine over an SCV, you wouldn't be able to ever use them.
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On August 28 2011 16:30 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 14:43 tuho12345 wrote:
I still want them to work more on the infestors. Can't let Zerg mass infestors and lings in ZvP. That's just too cost effective and hard to counter even HTs can't have enough energies to fb all the infestor and storm. That and ghost are my only wish in the next patch. Then just need carriers buff and the game is perfectly balance lol
j/k but seriously hope. I have a question for you. If Zerg makes 20 infestors and 100 lings, couldn't you easily counter that with 20 split High Templars and 35 Charge Zealots? Those two unit compositions cost the exact same. It isn't even an unreasonable composition... Hell change 6 HTs (300/900) into Sentries and you have your average Protoss FE base anyway. If Zerg is putting all his gas into Infestors, put all your into Templar. It should be fair for your five 50/150 unit to kill off 20 of my 100/150 units. Just like how the Mutalisk is listed as bad against the Stalker, if I have twice as many mutas as you have stalkers I should clean up; If I have twice as many Infestors as you have HTs, I should clean up. I have NEVER seen a Protoss player get as many HTs as Zerg gets Infestors. Just because something is a listed counter doesn't mean it should autokill all things it counters.
Because there is just not enough gas. Maybe you havent looked it up jet, but every upgrade on the protoss side costs much, much more gas, than the zerg equivalent.
Ling speed 100/100 ---> charge 200/200 (and you need a 150 gas building for the upgrade, whereas for lings you dont)
warpgates 50/50 ---> queens cost no gas
FG is free ---> storm 200/200
Infestation pit 150/150 ---> templar archives 200/200 (however you do need lair 100/100)
total gas for all upgrades and buildings for speedling/infestor is 350
total gas for all upgrades and buildings for chargelot/HTs is 800
And then, zealots are not a unit, you could ever harass zerg with. He would be extremely comfortable outmacroing you, and having even more mins/gas. OTOH speedlings are an excellent harass unit.
Switch to air?
for zerg no problem, because it is highly unlikely that a protoss can get many voids or phoenixes unscouted, and even if he did, these are not exactly effective against ling/infestor. And infestors are quite good AA. FG and some inf terrans can do the trick. But if zerg switches to mutas, you, as a chargelot/HT protoss, are FUCKED.
Why you dont see protoss having as many HTs as zerg has Infs? Because tech is generally more expensive for protoss, and because this composition gives you no map control or harass, and because it is vulnerable to tech switches (which are a specialty of the zerg race). The speedling/inf compo has none of these weaknesses.
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Mule discussion: The problem totally lies within the one-base. It's different for zerg since their hatch is both productionfacility and a lower cost compared to a nexus, but for protoss it's pretty much impossible to stay even in eco on one base even if you chrono ONLY probes (which puts your warpgate behind, and you will have alot less units, all things that will allow you to die to a big terran one-base punch). This basically forces a fast expand (which isnt a bad thing in genenral, just that the eco that is gained for the FE takes a while to kick in, i.e timings from Terran are extremly strong).
However people view this, it's something that is really tricky to deal with by adjusting the game, but it is a inate imbalance that can be overcome by mapsize for exampel. It's tricky..
I dont think zergs generally complain about the mules though and if they do, they havent played much TvZ.
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After this patch, if the late game still persist being T and Z favored in the PvX MUs (because of Ghosts and Infestors), I'm thinking Blizz is going to buff the movement speed of HTs.
2.25 (instead of current 1.875) move speed HTs would def. be nice. 
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On August 28 2011 17:01 Jesushooves wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 16:49 AsnSensation wrote:
The problem also is that they prevent terrans from being all in after pulling 10 scv fors an supposed allin attack, or keep the terran on equal economy as zerg/protoss if they lose a bunch of scv's to an harrassement. if terran pulls 10 scvs and doesn't kill an equal amount of workers from zerg or protoss with them, terran is significantly behind. The only way to come back from it is when toss or zerg makes some ridiculously stupid mistake, terran doesn't come back just by being "imbalanced".
Then let's make it fair such that Terran can't pull SCVs for attacking purposes. Tweak the programming so SCVs can only repair stationary mech units.
I am sure you'd be FOR such a change? No workers are allowed to be used offensively since they can only get even by killing equal number of opponent's workers.
The truth is Terran benefits immensely by pulling SCVs in sub 10 min all-ins because of 1) mules, and 2) terran units being ranged.
Mules are very powerful in early game and it is a big part why Terran is so strong early game. Their utility though diminishes as game goes on and other races stablize their economy. (Not considering mass-orbital or whatever exotic strat out there) That's why you don't see 20+ minute 3-base all in that accompanies SCV trains. The mules power shine in the very early game and SCVs happen to synergize well with ranged Terran units.
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"Fixed an issue where Drone attacks could be more easily dodged than SCV or Probes."
Thank the Lord.
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On August 28 2011 17:56 Grimmyman123 wrote:
Fact is Terran is massively overpowered, in many many ways.
That's not a fact at all.
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On August 28 2011 18:49 usethis2 wrote:
Then let's make it fair such that Terran can't pull SCVs for attacking purposes. Tweak the programming so SCVs can only repair stationary mech units.
Wow.......Just.....wow....I'm going to stop posting in this thread now.
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EPT
