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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
You can't just go around nerfing everything strong about a race everytime they start to become the dominant race, the game would become incredibly dull if that happened. Sure the Mule does allow Terran to do more 1/2 base antics than other races, but as long as the other races have the ability to deal with them in a reasonable manner then there is not overpowered | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On August 28 2011 22:49 Midgetman101 wrote: Actually, there is nothing wrong with the mule so there is no reason to discuss its balance. Without the mule, terran would be destroyed. It is an important aspect of the terran race and nerfing it in any way will destroy the balance of the game. Mules not only give an advantage for terran that is disproportionate to what terran loses because their workers have to build, they also allow terrans to supersaturate worker lines. This means they can get around 250/300 minerals per minute more than zerg or protoss can on one base. This is the issue with mules! Marines/1-1-1 are incredibly strong, and mules make 1base terran even stronger, because they can get those 250/300 minerals per minute more than protoss and zerg can from 1 base. So, are mules broken? I think so, and I think my arguments are pretty good as well. | ||
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Galva
Germany1 Post
everyone said it is op... So terran has the emp, Protoss has the feedback. Protoss has the Psi Storm (80 damage ! over 4 sec). And a zerg has nothing to prevent it. We have no snipes no emp, no feedback. think about it. | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
On August 28 2011 19:24 Lurk wrote: The reason why terran all-ins are more powerful than protoss or zerg ones is NOT the mule - it's the SCV. Not because they have 5 more hp than other workers and not that they can repair themselves. Simply because they work so well in combination which the basic terran military unit - the marine - which is RANGED. SCVs can be used as a meatshield for marines, while you cannot use probes as a meatshield for zealots or drones for zerglings - they'd just get in the way. Also, marines do very high damage and have little hp for it, so they benefit hugely from an effective meatshield. Basic T or P ranged units have quite high hp for little damage in comparison (roaches or stalkers), so they don't really need a meatshield. The synergy between marine and SCV meatshield is the ONLY reason why terran allins are so powerful, it has absolutely nothing to do with mules. Actually, if terran just had as many workers as T or P and no mules at all, their allins would be even more powerful. I don't know any effective solution to this though. Maybe give one unit that can't be used offensively a super-powerful anti-worker attack (static defense maybe). How can you ignore the fact that up to the point you pull the SCVs you have significantly greater mineral intake and once you actually pull the SCVs you're evening out/slightly lower because your mules are mining so much faster than regular workers. If Terran didnt have MULEs they couldnt actually pull SCVs the same way they do today. The actual push would be way smaller, and the reinforcement would be nonexistant. Reasons are usually more diverse than "X is why Y is Z". | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
And I don't think it will be worth to get BFH ASAP at all, people might even consider to get mech weapon upgrades +1 before getting the expensive 150/150 Infernal Pre-igniters. We may still see a lot BFH wars in TvT (maybe), but besides that, seems like another ruined upgrade for Terran. I think the most to do with this was the community's QQ, as always. Also, lol at Ultra build time. It's freaking ridiculous. Dealing with zerg's tech switches in late game, for both Terran and Protoss will be even freaking harder (especially for Terran, when zerg switches from broodlords/infestor to ultra/infestor in freaking 55 seconds lol). I hope this balance change won't see the daylight. | ||
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Azhrei16
United States284 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:10 Huragius wrote: IMHO, it is kinda sad patch for Terran. HSM will still be useless, playing against 3 gate robo in TvP and mid game immortal heavy oriented builds will be even harder and 2 rax in TvZ (especially 11/11 11/12) is pretty much dead, unless on a map like XNC, where it still won't be great. And I don't think it will be worth to get BFH ASAP at all, people might even consider to get mech weapon upgrades +1 before getting the expensive 150/150 Infernal Pre-igniters. We may still see a lot BFH wars in TvT (maybe), but besides that, seems like another ruined upgrade for Terran. I think the most to do with this was the community's QQ, as always. Also, lol at Ultra build time. It's freaking ridiculous. Dealing with zerg's tech switches in late game, for both Terran and Protoss will be even freaking harder (especially for Terran, when zerg switches from broodlords/infestor to ultra/infestor in freaking 55 seconds lol). I hope this balance change won't see the daylight. What's wrong with the Ultralisk build time? Just because they build faster doesn't mean they will start stomping now. It's the same exact unit as before, it is still terrible. Stalkers, Immortals, Tanks, Marauders, Marines, etc all counter it fairly easily. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
Blizzard could actually nerf any terran build by reducing the strength of the mule, but it just wouldn't be advisable as it would affect so many things. You can make some small changes that impact the afore-mentioned issues, such as adding cooldowns or limiting the OC's energy pool or so, though. -- but again, it might not be necessary, but I imagine it's still useful to at least be aware of how it possibly could be different. | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:12 Azhrei16 wrote: What's wrong with the Ultralisk build time? Just because they build faster doesn't mean they will start stomping now. It's the same exact unit as before, it is still terrible. Stalkers, Immortals, Tanks, Marauders, Marines, etc all counter it fairly easily. Terrible ?... Do you know what a tech switch is ? And I doubt that Ultra/Infestor is countered easily by Stalkers, Tanks, Marauders, Marines and "etc". After big army clashes in both TvZ and PvZ other side needs to make defenses and reinforce fast enough, not to be overrun by remaxed zergs army, and those 20 seconds for each freaking ultra is huge. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:27 Huragius wrote: Terrible ?... Do you know what a tech switch is ? And I doubt that Ultra/Infestor is countered easily by Stalkers, Tanks, Marauders, Marines and "etc". After big army clashes in both TvZ and PvZ other side needs to make defenses and reinforce fast enough, not to be overrun by remaxed zergs army, and those 20 seconds for each freaking ultra is huge. Yeah but the problem with the old Ultralisk build time is that any time a Zerg tries to make any significant number of Ultralisks they're basically stuck dead in the water till those units pop out. They cost so much the Zerg typically can't afford to build much else and the massive amount of time they take makes them completely open to getting dominated while waiting for their units to hatch making Ultras an incredibly risky unit to try and build. | ||
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dbddbddb
Singapore969 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:02 Dommk wrote: Ofcourse Mules are strong, anyone would have to be an idiot to downplay that, but EVERY race has something that is strong about them. What makes Terran strong is not one thing but the whole kit. You can't just go around nerfing everything strong about a race everytime they start to become the dominant race, the game would become incredibly dull if that happened. Sure the Mule does allow Terran to do more 1/2 base antics than other races, but as long as the other races have the ability to deal with them in a reasonable manner then there is not overpowered terran has been the dominant race in sc2 ever since wg got nerfed in the beta | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:20 Grumbels wrote: Well, I accept MULES as a macro mechanic the terran race is balanced around, similar to spawn larva and chronoboost. It would be futile to try and argue whether it's 'overpowered' as it's so central to the way terran plays. I do think it has problems, namely: 1. it's not as hard to use as chronoboost and spawn larva 2. it allows you to very quickly mine out expansions once you have a couple of orbitals. Neither of those is necessarily bad though, just something to keep an eye on. Blizzard could actually nerf any terran build by reducing the strength of the mule, but it just wouldn't be advisable as it would affect so many things. You can make some small changes that impact the afore-mentioned issues, such as adding cooldowns or limiting the OC's energy pool or so, though. -- but again, it might not be necessary, but I imagine it's still useful to at least be aware of how it possibly could be different. How does Chrono take more skill then a MULE?  | ||
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Azhrei16
United States284 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:27 Huragius wrote: Terrible ?... Do you know what a tech switch is ? And I doubt that Ultra/Infestor is countered easily by Stalkers, Tanks, Marauders, Marines and "etc". After big army clashes in both TvZ and PvZ other side needs to make defenses and reinforce fast enough, not to be overrun by remaxed zergs army, and those 20 seconds for each freaking ultra is huge. I am perfectly aware of what a tech switch is, and although I agree with your point that Ultra/Infestor is not countered easily by the units I listed, you forget the fact that in my post I only said ULTRALISK. Not Ultralisk + Infestor. Just the Ultralisk, as a unit, is terrible. Too many times we have seen massive armies of Ultralisks get smashed because either their pathing is bad or every unit in the game gets +damage to armored. The main problem with Starcraft 2 as a whole is that too many units for Terran and Protoss get a +damage bonus against armored, while Zerg hardly gets anything like that. Sure, the Ultralisk has quite a bit of health and a nice armor upgrade, but that kind of gets offset by the fact that when they come out the opponent usually has their +3 attack done for their +dmg to armored units. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13404 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:49 Azhrei16 wrote: I am perfectly aware of what a tech switch is, and although I agree with your point that Ultra/Infestor is not countered easily by the units I listed, you forget the fact that in my post I only said ULTRALISK. Not Ultralisk + Infestor. Just the Ultralisk, as a unit, is terrible. Too many times we have seen massive armies of Ultralisks get smashed because either their pathing is bad or every unit in the game gets +damage to armored. The main problem with Starcraft 2 as a whole is that too many units for Terran and Protoss get a +damage bonus against armored, while Zerg hardly gets anything like that. Sure, the Ultralisk has quite a bit of health and a nice armor upgrade, but that kind of gets offset by the fact that when they come out the opponent usually has their +3 attack done for their +dmg to armored units. LOL thought this was the mlg thread. Epic fail for my Firefox tabbing to add in one point: Chitonous plating is an extra +2 armour that cant be negated by having +3 atk if you also have +3 ground carapace btw which you should if ultras are a late game plan for you. | ||
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Azhrei16
United States284 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:51 ZeromuS wrote: Ok we dont really need to discuss the PTR notes here as well do we? I hope some of this off topicness falls to the wayside Erm.. is this not the Patch 1.4 PTR Notes thread? What else are we doing to discuss? If I'm wrong then I apologize. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13404 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:53 Azhrei16 wrote: Erm.. is this not the Patch 1.14 PTR Notes thread? What else are we doing to discuss? If I'm wrong then I apologize. edited my post I tab failed sorry for the confusion | ||
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Azhrei16
United States284 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:53 ZeromuS wrote: edited my post I tab failed sorry for the confusion It's alright, no harm done =) And yes, I understand that the Chitinous Plating cannot be offset with +3 attack. The fact still remains that a lot of units that the other 2 races typically have deal +damage to armored, so there is still some bonus damage being done there. I wish they would give Zerg atleast one or two more units that deal bonus damage to something to help offset that. | ||
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Sotamursu
Finland612 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:49 Azhrei16 wrote: I am perfectly aware of what a tech switch is, and although I agree with your point that Ultra/Infestor is not countered easily by the units I listed, you forget the fact that in my post I only said ULTRALISK. Not Ultralisk + Infestor. Just the Ultralisk, as a unit, is terrible. Too many times we have seen massive armies of Ultralisks get smashed because either their pathing is bad or every unit in the game gets +damage to armored. The main problem with Starcraft 2 as a whole is that too many units for Terran and Protoss get a +damage bonus against armored, while Zerg hardly gets anything like that. Sure, the Ultralisk has quite a bit of health and a nice armor upgrade, but that kind of gets offset by the fact that when they come out the opponent usually has their +3 attack done for their +dmg to armored units. For terran only tanks and marauders get +dmg to armor. Tanks in siege are fucking terrible against ultralisks and marauders are pretty much only good vs roaches and ultralisks and die pretty hard to everything else. Zerg hardly gets anything like that? What are you talking about? Units that do extra damage against certain types? Why is like 90% of the posts people whining about X terran feature, then saying their race doesn't have that therefore terran op. People sure love leaving out stuff that's possibly using their races. | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:41 Existor wrote: Ultralisks before build time buff was Ultra-Risk units. They were not. Carriers/BC are not viable at all, in any match-ups (besides late late game TvT, which doesn't really count since is freaking mirror lol) but they are still left alone to be like this. Meanwhile zergs already had two an incredibly strong late game tech routes BL/Infestor (which one was better before this buff) and Ultra/Infestor. And now, zerg is the only race which can utilize it's tier 3 units in evey matchup. I liked how every biased zerg came up with shit like "Ultra is a terrible unit", "We don't see much of Ultras in pro games" and etc., and every single of them ended with idea that Ultralisk needs to be buffed somehow. Meanwhile it became a normal thing for Terran and Protoss to have a tier 3 flying piece of shit lol. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:04 H0i wrote: Mules not only give an advantage for terran that is disproportionate to what terran loses because their workers have to build, they also allow terrans to supersaturate worker lines. This means they can get around 250/300 minerals per minute more than zerg or protoss can on one base. This is the issue with mules! Marines/1-1-1 are incredibly strong, and mules make 1base terran even stronger, because they can get those 250/300 minerals per minute more than protoss and zerg can from 1 base. So, are mules broken? I think so, and I think my arguments are pretty good as well. Mules aren't broken, it just takes less skill to utilize their macro mechanic. I think making a simple change like making the orbital command un-liftable [like a planetary fortress] would be more fair to balance the macro mechanic. | ||
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