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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 29 2011 00:24 Sotamursu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 00:03 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:56 Sotamursu wrote:On August 28 2011 23:49 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:27 Huragius wrote:On August 28 2011 23:12 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:10 Huragius wrote:
IMHO, it is kinda sad patch for Terran. HSM will still be useless, playing against 3 gate robo in TvP and mid game immortal heavy oriented builds will be even harder and 2 rax in TvZ (especially 11/11 11/12) is pretty much dead, unless on a map like XNC, where it still won't be great.
And I don't think it will be worth to get BFH ASAP at all, people might even consider to get mech weapon upgrades +1 before getting the expensive 150/150 Infernal Pre-igniters. We may still see a lot BFH wars in TvT (maybe), but besides that, seems like another ruined upgrade for Terran.
I think the most to do with this was the community's QQ, as always.
Also, lol at Ultra build time. It's freaking ridiculous. Dealing with zerg's tech switches in late game, for both Terran and Protoss will be even freaking harder (especially for Terran, when zerg switches from broodlords/infestor to ultra/infestor in freaking 55 seconds lol). I hope this balance change won't see the daylight. What's wrong with the Ultralisk build time? Just because they build faster doesn't mean they will start stomping now. It's the same exact unit as before, it is still terrible. Stalkers, Immortals, Tanks, Marauders, Marines, etc all counter it fairly easily. Terrible ?... Do you know what a tech switch is ? And I doubt that Ultra/Infestor is countered easily by Stalkers, Tanks, Marauders, Marines and "etc". After big army clashes in both TvZ and PvZ other side needs to make defenses and reinforce fast enough, not to be overrun by remaxed zergs army, and those 20 seconds for each freaking ultra is huge. I am perfectly aware of what a tech switch is, and although I agree with your point that Ultra/Infestor is not countered easily by the units I listed, you forget the fact that in my post I only said ULTRALISK. Not Ultralisk + Infestor. Just the Ultralisk, as a unit, is terrible. Too many times we have seen massive armies of Ultralisks get smashed because either their pathing is bad or every unit in the game gets +damage to armored. The main problem with Starcraft 2 as a whole is that too many units for Terran and Protoss get a +damage bonus against armored, while Zerg hardly gets anything like that. Sure, the Ultralisk has quite a bit of health and a nice armor upgrade, but that kind of gets offset by the fact that when they come out the opponent usually has their +3 attack done for their +dmg to armored units. For terran only tanks and marauders get +dmg to armor. Tanks in siege are fucking terrible against ultralisks and marauders are pretty much only good vs roaches and ultralisks and die pretty hard to everything else. Zerg hardly gets anything like that? What are you talking about? Units that do extra damage against certain types? Why is like 90% of the posts people whining about X terran feature, then saying their race doesn't have that therefore terran op. People sure love leaving out stuff that's possibly using their races. Stimmed Marauders are all you need to wipe out any Ultralisks the Zerg has, and the splash from the Tanks just adds to that damage. And yes, I meant Zerg hardly gets any units that deal extra damage against certain types. Ultralisks get +armored, Corruptor gets +massive, Baneling gets +light but it suicides so you cannot keep the unit and the Infestor gets a spell that does +armored. As far as regular staple units that get a damage bonus, we have none. I was not whining about any Terran feature. I play Protoss, but I also love spectating Starcraft II more than anything else. Mules are perfectly fine the way they are, just like chronoboost and larvae inject. No need to whine about them. Why would zerg need a "staple unit" whatever the hell that means, that does extra damage against something? I mean I might as well swap that around and say terran has no staple +dmg units in tvz. Tanks don't count because there's more marines and marines do pure dmg. See suddenly Terran is the same as Zerg. While stimmed marauders beat ultralisks in a unit tester, in a real game they'll be fungaled and the ultralisks are going to have lings with them. If this patch goes through, you can suddenly change to ultralisks even faster and unless you have a lto of marauders (which you won't have because they're shit against bl) or ghosts you die instantly. Arguing balance about single units doing stuff alone is pointless. You don't see terrans whine about the marine being a shit unit because it get's molested alone.
You are taking this way too seriously. I am not whining whatsoever for Zerg, I said I play PROTOSS. Terrans whining about marines being a shit unit alone? Are you kidding me? Yes, please, I'd love to see someone whine about the most cost-efficient unit in the game. Tanks don't count? That's funny.
Tanks smash banelings, marines smash zerglings, and you have ghosts to combat infestors. Roaches are pitiful against terran, and hydras aren't at the point where they can be useful yet. That leaves zerg with broodlords, which are good when they first come on the field but a good terran will have plenty of vikings. And if all your vikings get fungal'd and die that's your own fault.
Okay, yeah the marauders could be fungal'd and the ultralisks have lings with them, but why would you ONLY have marauders sitting there? You would also have tanks backing up the marines/marauders and then you SHOULD have ghosts nearby. Really I don't understand your argument at all. If you have the composition and use your ghosts correctly then you should have no problem.
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On August 29 2011 02:09 Azhrei16 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 00:24 Sotamursu wrote:On August 29 2011 00:03 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:56 Sotamursu wrote:On August 28 2011 23:49 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:27 Huragius wrote:On August 28 2011 23:12 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:10 Huragius wrote:
IMHO, it is kinda sad patch for Terran. HSM will still be useless, playing against 3 gate robo in TvP and mid game immortal heavy oriented builds will be even harder and 2 rax in TvZ (especially 11/11 11/12) is pretty much dead, unless on a map like XNC, where it still won't be great.
And I don't think it will be worth to get BFH ASAP at all, people might even consider to get mech weapon upgrades +1 before getting the expensive 150/150 Infernal Pre-igniters. We may still see a lot BFH wars in TvT (maybe), but besides that, seems like another ruined upgrade for Terran.
I think the most to do with this was the community's QQ, as always.
Also, lol at Ultra build time. It's freaking ridiculous. Dealing with zerg's tech switches in late game, for both Terran and Protoss will be even freaking harder (especially for Terran, when zerg switches from broodlords/infestor to ultra/infestor in freaking 55 seconds lol). I hope this balance change won't see the daylight. What's wrong with the Ultralisk build time? Just because they build faster doesn't mean they will start stomping now. It's the same exact unit as before, it is still terrible. Stalkers, Immortals, Tanks, Marauders, Marines, etc all counter it fairly easily. Terrible ?... Do you know what a tech switch is ? And I doubt that Ultra/Infestor is countered easily by Stalkers, Tanks, Marauders, Marines and "etc". After big army clashes in both TvZ and PvZ other side needs to make defenses and reinforce fast enough, not to be overrun by remaxed zergs army, and those 20 seconds for each freaking ultra is huge. I am perfectly aware of what a tech switch is, and although I agree with your point that Ultra/Infestor is not countered easily by the units I listed, you forget the fact that in my post I only said ULTRALISK. Not Ultralisk + Infestor. Just the Ultralisk, as a unit, is terrible. Too many times we have seen massive armies of Ultralisks get smashed because either their pathing is bad or every unit in the game gets +damage to armored. The main problem with Starcraft 2 as a whole is that too many units for Terran and Protoss get a +damage bonus against armored, while Zerg hardly gets anything like that. Sure, the Ultralisk has quite a bit of health and a nice armor upgrade, but that kind of gets offset by the fact that when they come out the opponent usually has their +3 attack done for their +dmg to armored units. For terran only tanks and marauders get +dmg to armor. Tanks in siege are fucking terrible against ultralisks and marauders are pretty much only good vs roaches and ultralisks and die pretty hard to everything else. Zerg hardly gets anything like that? What are you talking about? Units that do extra damage against certain types? Why is like 90% of the posts people whining about X terran feature, then saying their race doesn't have that therefore terran op. People sure love leaving out stuff that's possibly using their races. Stimmed Marauders are all you need to wipe out any Ultralisks the Zerg has, and the splash from the Tanks just adds to that damage. And yes, I meant Zerg hardly gets any units that deal extra damage against certain types. Ultralisks get +armored, Corruptor gets +massive, Baneling gets +light but it suicides so you cannot keep the unit and the Infestor gets a spell that does +armored. As far as regular staple units that get a damage bonus, we have none. I was not whining about any Terran feature. I play Protoss, but I also love spectating Starcraft II more than anything else. Mules are perfectly fine the way they are, just like chronoboost and larvae inject. No need to whine about them. Why would zerg need a "staple unit" whatever the hell that means, that does extra damage against something? I mean I might as well swap that around and say terran has no staple +dmg units in tvz. Tanks don't count because there's more marines and marines do pure dmg. See suddenly Terran is the same as Zerg. While stimmed marauders beat ultralisks in a unit tester, in a real game they'll be fungaled and the ultralisks are going to have lings with them. If this patch goes through, you can suddenly change to ultralisks even faster and unless you have a lto of marauders (which you won't have because they're shit against bl) or ghosts you die instantly. Arguing balance about single units doing stuff alone is pointless. You don't see terrans whine about the marine being a shit unit because it get's molested alone. You are taking this way too seriously. I am not whining whatsoever for Zerg, I said I play PROTOSS. Terrans whining about marines being a shit unit alone? Are you kidding me? Yes, please, I'd love to see someone whine about the most cost-efficient unit in the game. Tanks don't count? That's funny. Tanks smash banelings, marines smash zerglings, and you have ghosts to combat infestors. Roaches are pitiful against terran, and hydras aren't at the point where they can be useful yet. That leaves zerg with broodlords, which are good when they first come on the field but a good terran will have plenty of vikings. And if all your vikings get fungal'd and die that's your own fault. Okay, yeah the marauders could be fungal'd and the ultralisks have lings with them, but why would you ONLY have marauders sitting there? You would also have tanks backing up the marines/marauders and then you SHOULD have ghosts nearby. Really I don't understand your argument at all. If you have the composition and use your ghosts correctly then you should have no problem.
I lol'ed at this post because if you switch it aronud.
Zergling smash tanks, baneling smash marines, if ghosts are fungals they are as good as dead. Dude if you fight any unit against their counter if a big battle of course its gg but that never happens does it?
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Tanks smash banelings, marines smash zerglings, and you have ghosts to combat infestors. Roaches are pitiful against terran, and hydras aren't at the point where they can be useful yet. That leaves zerg with broodlords, which are good when they first come on the field but a good terran will have plenty of vikings. And if all your vikings get fungal'd and die that's your own fault.
But banelings smash marines, zerglings and mutas smash tanks, and infestors smash everything BUT ghosts. So really it all comes down to how you engage and how you micro your units so you get the highest cost efficiency possible.
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On August 29 2011 02:27 envisioN . wrote:Show nested quote +
Tanks smash banelings, marines smash zerglings, and you have ghosts to combat infestors. Roaches are pitiful against terran, and hydras aren't at the point where they can be useful yet. That leaves zerg with broodlords, which are good when they first come on the field but a good terran will have plenty of vikings. And if all your vikings get fungal'd and die that's your own fault.
But banelings smash marines, zerglings and mutas smash tanks, and infestors smash everything BUT ghosts. So really it all comes down to how you engage and how you micro your units so you get the highest cost efficiency possible.
Alright, you guys make great points. But yes, more often than not when a zerg engages a terran, the zerg comes out on the short end of the battle. The tanks kill the banelings, the marines mop up the zerglings/mutalisks, and most of the time the tank splash kills the infestors. The argument was just getting out of hand, was trying to explain my side. Really, the Ultralisk change will not affect anything and anyone whining about it, in my opinion, is clueless. Thank you, that is all.
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On August 29 2011 02:09 Azhrei16 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 00:24 Sotamursu wrote:On August 29 2011 00:03 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:56 Sotamursu wrote:On August 28 2011 23:49 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:27 Huragius wrote:On August 28 2011 23:12 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:10 Huragius wrote:
IMHO, it is kinda sad patch for Terran. HSM will still be useless, playing against 3 gate robo in TvP and mid game immortal heavy oriented builds will be even harder and 2 rax in TvZ (especially 11/11 11/12) is pretty much dead, unless on a map like XNC, where it still won't be great.
And I don't think it will be worth to get BFH ASAP at all, people might even consider to get mech weapon upgrades +1 before getting the expensive 150/150 Infernal Pre-igniters. We may still see a lot BFH wars in TvT (maybe), but besides that, seems like another ruined upgrade for Terran.
I think the most to do with this was the community's QQ, as always.
Also, lol at Ultra build time. It's freaking ridiculous. Dealing with zerg's tech switches in late game, for both Terran and Protoss will be even freaking harder (especially for Terran, when zerg switches from broodlords/infestor to ultra/infestor in freaking 55 seconds lol). I hope this balance change won't see the daylight. What's wrong with the Ultralisk build time? Just because they build faster doesn't mean they will start stomping now. It's the same exact unit as before, it is still terrible. Stalkers, Immortals, Tanks, Marauders, Marines, etc all counter it fairly easily. Terrible ?... Do you know what a tech switch is ? And I doubt that Ultra/Infestor is countered easily by Stalkers, Tanks, Marauders, Marines and "etc". After big army clashes in both TvZ and PvZ other side needs to make defenses and reinforce fast enough, not to be overrun by remaxed zergs army, and those 20 seconds for each freaking ultra is huge. I am perfectly aware of what a tech switch is, and although I agree with your point that Ultra/Infestor is not countered easily by the units I listed, you forget the fact that in my post I only said ULTRALISK. Not Ultralisk + Infestor. Just the Ultralisk, as a unit, is terrible. Too many times we have seen massive armies of Ultralisks get smashed because either their pathing is bad or every unit in the game gets +damage to armored. The main problem with Starcraft 2 as a whole is that too many units for Terran and Protoss get a +damage bonus against armored, while Zerg hardly gets anything like that. Sure, the Ultralisk has quite a bit of health and a nice armor upgrade, but that kind of gets offset by the fact that when they come out the opponent usually has their +3 attack done for their +dmg to armored units. For terran only tanks and marauders get +dmg to armor. Tanks in siege are fucking terrible against ultralisks and marauders are pretty much only good vs roaches and ultralisks and die pretty hard to everything else. Zerg hardly gets anything like that? What are you talking about? Units that do extra damage against certain types? Why is like 90% of the posts people whining about X terran feature, then saying their race doesn't have that therefore terran op. People sure love leaving out stuff that's possibly using their races. Stimmed Marauders are all you need to wipe out any Ultralisks the Zerg has, and the splash from the Tanks just adds to that damage. And yes, I meant Zerg hardly gets any units that deal extra damage against certain types. Ultralisks get +armored, Corruptor gets +massive, Baneling gets +light but it suicides so you cannot keep the unit and the Infestor gets a spell that does +armored. As far as regular staple units that get a damage bonus, we have none. I was not whining about any Terran feature. I play Protoss, but I also love spectating Starcraft II more than anything else. Mules are perfectly fine the way they are, just like chronoboost and larvae inject. No need to whine about them. Why would zerg need a "staple unit" whatever the hell that means, that does extra damage against something? I mean I might as well swap that around and say terran has no staple +dmg units in tvz. Tanks don't count because there's more marines and marines do pure dmg. See suddenly Terran is the same as Zerg. While stimmed marauders beat ultralisks in a unit tester, in a real game they'll be fungaled and the ultralisks are going to have lings with them. If this patch goes through, you can suddenly change to ultralisks even faster and unless you have a lto of marauders (which you won't have because they're shit against bl) or ghosts you die instantly. Arguing balance about single units doing stuff alone is pointless. You don't see terrans whine about the marine being a shit unit because it get's molested alone. You are taking this way too seriously. I am not whining whatsoever for Zerg, I said I play PROTOSS. Terrans whining about marines being a shit unit alone? Are you kidding me? Yes, please, I'd love to see someone whine about the most cost-efficient unit in the game. Tanks don't count? That's funny.
Yeah about as funny as banelings not counting. Of course no one is whining about marines being a shit unit, because everyone uses marines with upgrades and medivacs and with other units supporting them, just like the ultralisk. I'll write it again. Most units are shit alone so using that as an arguement to justify buffing is bad.
Tanks smash banelings, marines smash zerglings, and you have ghosts to combat infestors. Roaches are pitiful against terran, and hydras aren't at the point where they can be useful yet. That leaves zerg with broodlords, which are good when they first come on the field but a good terran will have plenty of vikings. And if all your vikings get fungal'd and die that's your own fault.
Lets list unit counters because its fun.
Okay, yeah the marauders could be fungal'd and the ultralisks have lings with them, but why would you ONLY have marauders sitting there? You would also have tanks backing up the marines/marauders and then you SHOULD have ghosts nearby. Really I don't understand your argument at all. If you have the composition and use your ghosts correctly then you should have no problem.
Funny, because it's just your arguement with a few unit names swapped. Of course the terran the marauders are going to be supported with other units, just like the ultralisk. The problem is that going against bl or ultralisk requires different units. You need a lot of marauders, if you want to kill ultras effectively. Not to mention enough techlabs. However, zerg can easily morph banelings from lings against marines and other than that they don't have to change their supporting units.It doesn't matter if the ultralisk is shit alone, since it's never going to be alone. I'm not claiming Zerg is op or Terran is up. Why are you commenting on a match-up you don't even play?
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On August 29 2011 02:38 Sotamursu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 02:09 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 29 2011 00:24 Sotamursu wrote:On August 29 2011 00:03 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:56 Sotamursu wrote:On August 28 2011 23:49 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:27 Huragius wrote:On August 28 2011 23:12 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:10 Huragius wrote:
IMHO, it is kinda sad patch for Terran. HSM will still be useless, playing against 3 gate robo in TvP and mid game immortal heavy oriented builds will be even harder and 2 rax in TvZ (especially 11/11 11/12) is pretty much dead, unless on a map like XNC, where it still won't be great.
And I don't think it will be worth to get BFH ASAP at all, people might even consider to get mech weapon upgrades +1 before getting the expensive 150/150 Infernal Pre-igniters. We may still see a lot BFH wars in TvT (maybe), but besides that, seems like another ruined upgrade for Terran.
I think the most to do with this was the community's QQ, as always.
Also, lol at Ultra build time. It's freaking ridiculous. Dealing with zerg's tech switches in late game, for both Terran and Protoss will be even freaking harder (especially for Terran, when zerg switches from broodlords/infestor to ultra/infestor in freaking 55 seconds lol). I hope this balance change won't see the daylight. What's wrong with the Ultralisk build time? Just because they build faster doesn't mean they will start stomping now. It's the same exact unit as before, it is still terrible. Stalkers, Immortals, Tanks, Marauders, Marines, etc all counter it fairly easily. Terrible ?... Do you know what a tech switch is ? And I doubt that Ultra/Infestor is countered easily by Stalkers, Tanks, Marauders, Marines and "etc". After big army clashes in both TvZ and PvZ other side needs to make defenses and reinforce fast enough, not to be overrun by remaxed zergs army, and those 20 seconds for each freaking ultra is huge. I am perfectly aware of what a tech switch is, and although I agree with your point that Ultra/Infestor is not countered easily by the units I listed, you forget the fact that in my post I only said ULTRALISK. Not Ultralisk + Infestor. Just the Ultralisk, as a unit, is terrible. Too many times we have seen massive armies of Ultralisks get smashed because either their pathing is bad or every unit in the game gets +damage to armored. The main problem with Starcraft 2 as a whole is that too many units for Terran and Protoss get a +damage bonus against armored, while Zerg hardly gets anything like that. Sure, the Ultralisk has quite a bit of health and a nice armor upgrade, but that kind of gets offset by the fact that when they come out the opponent usually has their +3 attack done for their +dmg to armored units. For terran only tanks and marauders get +dmg to armor. Tanks in siege are fucking terrible against ultralisks and marauders are pretty much only good vs roaches and ultralisks and die pretty hard to everything else. Zerg hardly gets anything like that? What are you talking about? Units that do extra damage against certain types? Why is like 90% of the posts people whining about X terran feature, then saying their race doesn't have that therefore terran op. People sure love leaving out stuff that's possibly using their races. Stimmed Marauders are all you need to wipe out any Ultralisks the Zerg has, and the splash from the Tanks just adds to that damage. And yes, I meant Zerg hardly gets any units that deal extra damage against certain types. Ultralisks get +armored, Corruptor gets +massive, Baneling gets +light but it suicides so you cannot keep the unit and the Infestor gets a spell that does +armored. As far as regular staple units that get a damage bonus, we have none. I was not whining about any Terran feature. I play Protoss, but I also love spectating Starcraft II more than anything else. Mules are perfectly fine the way they are, just like chronoboost and larvae inject. No need to whine about them. Why would zerg need a "staple unit" whatever the hell that means, that does extra damage against something? I mean I might as well swap that around and say terran has no staple +dmg units in tvz. Tanks don't count because there's more marines and marines do pure dmg. See suddenly Terran is the same as Zerg. While stimmed marauders beat ultralisks in a unit tester, in a real game they'll be fungaled and the ultralisks are going to have lings with them. If this patch goes through, you can suddenly change to ultralisks even faster and unless you have a lto of marauders (which you won't have because they're shit against bl) or ghosts you die instantly. Arguing balance about single units doing stuff alone is pointless. You don't see terrans whine about the marine being a shit unit because it get's molested alone. You are taking this way too seriously. I am not whining whatsoever for Zerg, I said I play PROTOSS. Terrans whining about marines being a shit unit alone? Are you kidding me? Yes, please, I'd love to see someone whine about the most cost-efficient unit in the game. Tanks don't count? That's funny. Yeah about as funny as banelings not counting. Of course no one is whining about marines being a shit unit, because everyone uses marines with upgrades and medivacs and with other units supporting them, just like the ultralisk. I'll write it again. Most units are shit alone so using that as an arguement to justify buffing is bad. Show nested quote +Tanks smash banelings, marines smash zerglings, and you have ghosts to combat infestors. Roaches are pitiful against terran, and hydras aren't at the point where they can be useful yet. That leaves zerg with broodlords, which are good when they first come on the field but a good terran will have plenty of vikings. And if all your vikings get fungal'd and die that's your own fault. Lets list unit counters because its fun. Show nested quote +
Okay, yeah the marauders could be fungal'd and the ultralisks have lings with them, but why would you ONLY have marauders sitting there? You would also have tanks backing up the marines/marauders and then you SHOULD have ghosts nearby. Really I don't understand your argument at all. If you have the composition and use your ghosts correctly then you should have no problem.
Funny, because it's just your arguement with a few unit names swapped. Of course the terran the marauders are going to be supported with other units, just like the ultralisk. The problem is that going against bl or ultralisk requires different units. You need a lot of marauders, if you want to kill ultras effectively. Not to mention enough techlabs. However, zerg can easily morph banelings from lings against marines and other than that they don't have to change their supporting units.It doesn't matter if the ultralisk is shit alone, since it's never going to be alone. I'm not claiming Zerg is op or Terran is up. Why are you commenting on a match-up you don't even play?
As someone who spectates Starcraft II a ton, I'm just getting tired of watching boring ass Zerg matches where they got stomped by the dumbest shit. Period. I am not trying to argue with anybody, I don't claim to know more than anyone else. I was simply stating my opinion and if that upsets you then I apologize. I feel like Zerg does not match up well against Terrans units and compositions. Of all the games I have watched and observed, I rarely see an ultralisk/infestor/zergling composition doing very well against its terran counterpart. I just wish zerg was more volatile so the games were more exciting to watch. And as long as terran has their tanks sieged, I just don't see banelings really doing much in any battles unless the terran army is clearly outnumbered. Just because I don't play a match up doesn't mean I'm not allowed to comment on it. No wonder people hesitate to post on TL.
Also when did I say the Baneling didn't count? I'm confused. I just said it suicides so you aren't allowed to keep using it after that, that's all.
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On August 29 2011 00:24 Sotamursu wrote:
If this patch goes through, you can suddenly change to ultralisks even faster and unless you have a lto of marauders (which you won't have because they're shit against bl) or ghosts you die instantly. Arguing balance about single units doing stuff alone is pointless. You don't see terrans whine about the marine being a shit unit because it get's molested alone.
If you let him stockpile enough money to remax and roll you with ultras, you already lost the game way before that bro.
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On August 28 2011 16:30 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 14:43 tuho12345 wrote:
I still want them to work more on the infestors. Can't let Zerg mass infestors and lings in ZvP. That's just too cost effective and hard to counter even HTs can't have enough energies to fb all the infestor and storm. That and ghost are my only wish in the next patch. Then just need carriers buff and the game is perfectly balance lol
j/k but seriously hope. I have a question for you. If Zerg makes 20 infestors and 100 lings, couldn't you easily counter that with 20 split High Templars and 35 Charge Zealots? Those two unit compositions cost the exact same. It isn't even an unreasonable composition... Hell change 6 HTs (300/900) into Sentries and you have your average Protoss FE base anyway. If Zerg is putting all his gas into Infestors, put all your into Templar. It should be fair for your five 50/150 unit to kill off 20 of my 100/150 units. Just like how the Mutalisk is listed as bad against the Stalker, if I have twice as many mutas as you have stalkers I should clean up; If I have twice as many Infestors as you have HTs, I should clean up. I have NEVER seen a Protoss player get as many HTs as Zerg gets Infestors. Just because something is a listed counter doesn't mean it should autokill all things it counters.
Yes, you could. The problem that I have is not so much ling/infestor in and of itself, but the remax on 45 roaches that happens after I storm and feedback his army. I don't like zealot archon against mass roach. That said, I'm not great at this MU.
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On August 28 2011 23:04 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 19:24 Lurk wrote:
The reason why terran all-ins are more powerful than protoss or zerg ones is NOT the mule - it's the SCV. Not because they have 5 more hp than other workers and not that they can repair themselves.
Simply because they work so well in combination which the basic terran military unit - the marine - which is RANGED. SCVs can be used as a meatshield for marines, while you cannot use probes as a meatshield for zealots or drones for zerglings - they'd just get in the way. Also, marines do very high damage and have little hp for it, so they benefit hugely from an effective meatshield. Basic T or P ranged units have quite high hp for little damage in comparison (roaches or stalkers), so they don't really need a meatshield.
The synergy between marine and SCV meatshield is the ONLY reason why terran allins are so powerful, it has absolutely nothing to do with mules. Actually, if terran just had as many workers as T or P and no mules at all, their allins would be even more powerful.
I don't know any effective solution to this though. Maybe give one unit that can't be used offensively a super-powerful anti-worker attack (static defense maybe). How can you ignore the fact that up to the point you pull the SCVs you have significantly greater mineral intake and once you actually pull the SCVs you're evening out/slightly lower because your mules are mining so much faster than regular workers. If Terran didnt have MULEs they couldnt actually pull SCVs the same way they do today. The actual push would be way smaller, and the reinforcement would be nonexistant. Reasons are usually more diverse than "X is why Y is Z".
I'm not ignoring that fact, but it's usually not a factor in all-ins. Terrans going a 1/1/1 allin typically don't even get up to saturation in workers, they're usually at ~26 at the point they're attacking. So oversaturation is not an issue, they could just have +4 scvs instead of a mule if they had chronoboost. Worst of all, they could pull that additional 4 scvs with the attack and make it even more deadly (and even more all-in).
And even if they chose to get 30 scvs before attacking, oversaturation would only lead to a small amount of extra minerals compared to the overall strength of the push.
As i said before, the fundamental principle why terran allins work is the synergy between the scv and the marine. Or in general a meatshield unit with a high-dps low-hp ranged unit. In theory, a drone/hydra push would just be as deadly, but the techtree limitations prevent such a push early enough in the game to work.
SCVs having 5 more hp and being able to repair themselves as well as all the small benefits the MULE mechanic might give are all just small factors. Giving the MULE mechanic to zerg would not make drone/ling allins work, giving marines to zerg would make drone/marine allins work though.
If you want to fix terran allins without breaking the game, the way to do it is to lower the synergy between marines and SCVs. Nerfing terran units or MULES or anything other that is not actually the core of the problem, might fix allins too - but it will also throw the rest of the game out of balance.
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On August 29 2011 02:46 Azhrei16 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 02:38 Sotamursu wrote:On August 29 2011 02:09 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 29 2011 00:24 Sotamursu wrote:On August 29 2011 00:03 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:56 Sotamursu wrote:On August 28 2011 23:49 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:27 Huragius wrote:On August 28 2011 23:12 Azhrei16 wrote:On August 28 2011 23:10 Huragius wrote:
IMHO, it is kinda sad patch for Terran. HSM will still be useless, playing against 3 gate robo in TvP and mid game immortal heavy oriented builds will be even harder and 2 rax in TvZ (especially 11/11 11/12) is pretty much dead, unless on a map like XNC, where it still won't be great.
And I don't think it will be worth to get BFH ASAP at all, people might even consider to get mech weapon upgrades +1 before getting the expensive 150/150 Infernal Pre-igniters. We may still see a lot BFH wars in TvT (maybe), but besides that, seems like another ruined upgrade for Terran.
I think the most to do with this was the community's QQ, as always.
Also, lol at Ultra build time. It's freaking ridiculous. Dealing with zerg's tech switches in late game, for both Terran and Protoss will be even freaking harder (especially for Terran, when zerg switches from broodlords/infestor to ultra/infestor in freaking 55 seconds lol). I hope this balance change won't see the daylight. What's wrong with the Ultralisk build time? Just because they build faster doesn't mean they will start stomping now. It's the same exact unit as before, it is still terrible. Stalkers, Immortals, Tanks, Marauders, Marines, etc all counter it fairly easily. Terrible ?... Do you know what a tech switch is ? And I doubt that Ultra/Infestor is countered easily by Stalkers, Tanks, Marauders, Marines and "etc". After big army clashes in both TvZ and PvZ other side needs to make defenses and reinforce fast enough, not to be overrun by remaxed zergs army, and those 20 seconds for each freaking ultra is huge. I am perfectly aware of what a tech switch is, and although I agree with your point that Ultra/Infestor is not countered easily by the units I listed, you forget the fact that in my post I only said ULTRALISK. Not Ultralisk + Infestor. Just the Ultralisk, as a unit, is terrible. Too many times we have seen massive armies of Ultralisks get smashed because either their pathing is bad or every unit in the game gets +damage to armored. The main problem with Starcraft 2 as a whole is that too many units for Terran and Protoss get a +damage bonus against armored, while Zerg hardly gets anything like that. Sure, the Ultralisk has quite a bit of health and a nice armor upgrade, but that kind of gets offset by the fact that when they come out the opponent usually has their +3 attack done for their +dmg to armored units. For terran only tanks and marauders get +dmg to armor. Tanks in siege are fucking terrible against ultralisks and marauders are pretty much only good vs roaches and ultralisks and die pretty hard to everything else. Zerg hardly gets anything like that? What are you talking about? Units that do extra damage against certain types? Why is like 90% of the posts people whining about X terran feature, then saying their race doesn't have that therefore terran op. People sure love leaving out stuff that's possibly using their races. Stimmed Marauders are all you need to wipe out any Ultralisks the Zerg has, and the splash from the Tanks just adds to that damage. And yes, I meant Zerg hardly gets any units that deal extra damage against certain types. Ultralisks get +armored, Corruptor gets +massive, Baneling gets +light but it suicides so you cannot keep the unit and the Infestor gets a spell that does +armored. As far as regular staple units that get a damage bonus, we have none. I was not whining about any Terran feature. I play Protoss, but I also love spectating Starcraft II more than anything else. Mules are perfectly fine the way they are, just like chronoboost and larvae inject. No need to whine about them. Why would zerg need a "staple unit" whatever the hell that means, that does extra damage against something? I mean I might as well swap that around and say terran has no staple +dmg units in tvz. Tanks don't count because there's more marines and marines do pure dmg. See suddenly Terran is the same as Zerg. While stimmed marauders beat ultralisks in a unit tester, in a real game they'll be fungaled and the ultralisks are going to have lings with them. If this patch goes through, you can suddenly change to ultralisks even faster and unless you have a lto of marauders (which you won't have because they're shit against bl) or ghosts you die instantly. Arguing balance about single units doing stuff alone is pointless. You don't see terrans whine about the marine being a shit unit because it get's molested alone. You are taking this way too seriously. I am not whining whatsoever for Zerg, I said I play PROTOSS. Terrans whining about marines being a shit unit alone? Are you kidding me? Yes, please, I'd love to see someone whine about the most cost-efficient unit in the game. Tanks don't count? That's funny. Yeah about as funny as banelings not counting. Of course no one is whining about marines being a shit unit, because everyone uses marines with upgrades and medivacs and with other units supporting them, just like the ultralisk. I'll write it again. Most units are shit alone so using that as an arguement to justify buffing is bad. Tanks smash banelings, marines smash zerglings, and you have ghosts to combat infestors. Roaches are pitiful against terran, and hydras aren't at the point where they can be useful yet. That leaves zerg with broodlords, which are good when they first come on the field but a good terran will have plenty of vikings. And if all your vikings get fungal'd and die that's your own fault. Lets list unit counters because its fun.
Okay, yeah the marauders could be fungal'd and the ultralisks have lings with them, but why would you ONLY have marauders sitting there? You would also have tanks backing up the marines/marauders and then you SHOULD have ghosts nearby. Really I don't understand your argument at all. If you have the composition and use your ghosts correctly then you should have no problem.
Funny, because it's just your arguement with a few unit names swapped. Of course the terran the marauders are going to be supported with other units, just like the ultralisk. The problem is that going against bl or ultralisk requires different units. You need a lot of marauders, if you want to kill ultras effectively. Not to mention enough techlabs. However, zerg can easily morph banelings from lings against marines and other than that they don't have to change their supporting units.It doesn't matter if the ultralisk is shit alone, since it's never going to be alone. I'm not claiming Zerg is op or Terran is up. Why are you commenting on a match-up you don't even play? As someone who spectates Starcraft II a ton, I'm just getting tired of watching boring ass Zerg matches where they got stomped by the dumbest shit. Period. I am not trying to argue with anybody, I don't claim to know more than anyone else. I was simply stating my opinion and if that upsets you then I apologize. I feel like Zerg does not match up well against Terrans units and compositions.
Then say so and don't make baseless claims.
Of all the games I have watched and observed, I rarely see an ultralisk/infestor/zergling composition doing very well against its terran counterpart. I just wish zerg was more volatile so the games were more exciting to watch.
TvZ is just as volatile as any match-up, if not even more so. One mistake with your army and it's gg. Mutas catching a few tanks can already cost you the game. I'm not even going to mention baneling mines.
And as long as terran has their tanks sieged, I just don't see banelings really doing much in any battles unless the terran army is clearly outnumbered. Just because I don't play a match up doesn't mean I'm not allowed to comment on it. No wonder people hesitate to post on TL.
Can you not understand how that makes TvZ exciting? You can't amove into tanks, so you have to figure out ways to deal with that. Same goes for terran, you can't just amove into Zerg. You need your tanks set up in good positions. You would know this, if you played Terran or Zerg.
Also when did I say the Baneling didn't count? I'm confused. I just said it suicides so you aren't allowed to keep using it after that, that's all.
"Baneling gets +light but it suicides so you cannot keep the unit and the Infestor gets a spell that does +armored. As far as regular staple units that get a damage bonus, we have none."
None implying that not a single one of your +dmg units, including the baneling are staple. Do you even read what you write?
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My upset about Mules, is not principally about terran all-ins with SCVs as meat shields but about very early economy. as soon as the first orbital command is complete protoss might have 1-2 3 max probes more than terran but terran suddendly gets 4 workers worth of mining for free, and protoss rarely use all their early game chronoboost on probes, so the economy advantage goes to terran whatever you do. Against zerg, the economy difference depends on the amount of drones and timing of hatch but they can easily put pressure on zerg before their second hatchery is even mining.
If you prefer : 240 ~ mins per mule is a gateway and a zealot the protoss could have a lot earlier and makes things a lot less complicated
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On August 29 2011 03:25 rohanim41 wrote:
My upset about Mules, is not principally about terran all-ins with SCVs as meat shields but about very early economy. as soon as the first orbital command is complete protoss might have 1-2 3 max probes more than terran but terran suddendly gets 4 workers worth of mining for free, and protoss rarely use all their early game chronoboost on probes, so the economy advantage goes to terran whatever you do. Against zerg, the economy difference depends on the amount of drones and timing of hatch but they can easily put pressure on zerg before their second hatchery is even mining.
If this is more than your gut-feeling, i'd love to see the actual proof. Every study i did on the fact whether terran actually gets any economical benefit from MULEs couldn't prove it.
By the time the first MULE is dropped, the protoss has 3 more probes and a forth almost finished. At that instant, the terran has a slightly higher income than the protoss. But the protoss will also have mined more minerals and before the terran can catch up to that the protoss probe advantage will match the MULE's income. Assuming both players take a timely expansion, neither one has any significant economical benefits. In most cases the protoss will be slightly ahead but it's so marginal it shouldn't make any difference.
The ONLY case where MULEs provide an economical benefit is when you stay on one base langer than you should. Through oversaturation with MULEs the terran can achieve mining rates other races can't. In normal scenarios though, MULEs don't give the terran an advantage - you're free to prove me otherwise, but do it with actual proof.
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On August 28 2011 22:52 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 22:42 SeaSwift wrote:On August 28 2011 22:32 Plexa wrote:
Easiest way to 'fix' mules is to accept that they aren't broken -.-; Hmm. I know you're the admin and all, but unless there's a decent discussion to be had rather than just baseless assertions like "x is broken" "no x is fine" I'd recommend not posting at all, because the thread will just devolve further. I was quite happy with a number of lengthy posts on the previous page, and although I'm not a mod/whatever on this website I think it would be a shame for the posts to turn into what they were earlier again. I feel that if you look at the situation logically, Lurk is absolutely right. MULEs are essentially an extra 3+ workers mining for the whole game per Orbital minus time for Supply cooldown/Scans. If MULEs were replaced by another mechanic which still just helped Terran keep up with P/Z in the economy (like chrono etc) then the problem would still remain with the 1-1-1. If Terran just produced workers faster every so often they would just leave some behind and continue with the attack as normal. The problem is NOT the MULEs, I would say (and yes, I agree with your statement Plexa just not the way you went about it). The problem is the efficiency of the Terran units, particularly the Marine, and the synergy between them all. Protoss has good unit synergy but to compensate for that Protoss units are individually inefficient the vast majority of the time. I think SCVs need slightly less health or Marines need slightly less DPS. I don't understand why Marines became so much more efficient compared to BW in the first place. You and me both. Zerglings got nerfed hard compared to their bw counterpart. Its much harder in the early game for Zergs in sc2, since Zerglings were so much stronger the Terran had to build up more marines or else he would lose everything for basically nothing. Marines in sc2 don't need to research +1 range, they just have it. Also, units in sc2 squeeze together into a ball so that increases marines dps and reduces the surface area, not to mention stutter-step micro is really good and not hard to pull off. And on top of everything Zerg no longer has creep colonies so they cannot build reactive defenses like they could in bw. Spines take a long time to build, much longer than bunkers.
just preemptively build like 5 or 6 spines?. Not like you can't reproduce drones at superspeed...
also, sc2=/=bw. "oh god something changed from my 10 year old game and i can't play the same way.. nerf please!" is not a good attitude
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On August 29 2011 03:52 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 22:52 R0YAL wrote:On August 28 2011 22:42 SeaSwift wrote:On August 28 2011 22:32 Plexa wrote:
Easiest way to 'fix' mules is to accept that they aren't broken -.-; Hmm. I know you're the admin and all, but unless there's a decent discussion to be had rather than just baseless assertions like "x is broken" "no x is fine" I'd recommend not posting at all, because the thread will just devolve further. I was quite happy with a number of lengthy posts on the previous page, and although I'm not a mod/whatever on this website I think it would be a shame for the posts to turn into what they were earlier again. I feel that if you look at the situation logically, Lurk is absolutely right. MULEs are essentially an extra 3+ workers mining for the whole game per Orbital minus time for Supply cooldown/Scans. If MULEs were replaced by another mechanic which still just helped Terran keep up with P/Z in the economy (like chrono etc) then the problem would still remain with the 1-1-1. If Terran just produced workers faster every so often they would just leave some behind and continue with the attack as normal. The problem is NOT the MULEs, I would say (and yes, I agree with your statement Plexa just not the way you went about it). The problem is the efficiency of the Terran units, particularly the Marine, and the synergy between them all. Protoss has good unit synergy but to compensate for that Protoss units are individually inefficient the vast majority of the time. I think SCVs need slightly less health or Marines need slightly less DPS. I don't understand why Marines became so much more efficient compared to BW in the first place. You and me both. Zerglings got nerfed hard compared to their bw counterpart. Its much harder in the early game for Zergs in sc2, since Zerglings were so much stronger the Terran had to build up more marines or else he would lose everything for basically nothing. Marines in sc2 don't need to research +1 range, they just have it. Also, units in sc2 squeeze together into a ball so that increases marines dps and reduces the surface area, not to mention stutter-step micro is really good and not hard to pull off. And on top of everything Zerg no longer has creep colonies so they cannot build reactive defenses like they could in bw. Spines take a long time to build, much longer than bunkers. just preemptively build like 5 or 6 spines?. Not like you can't reproduce drones at superspeed... also, sc2=/=bw. "oh god something changed from my 10 year old game and i can't play the same way.. nerf please!" is not a good attitude
rofl, "preemptive 5-6 spines" this is funny.
Sure, you go ahead and do that then enjoy all those spines being 100% worthless because your Terran opponent scouted your spines and just sets Siege Tanks up or does a Medivac Drop or sends Banshees in.
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can enybody answer when this patch will come ? i dont have a clue so if somebody can answer when will probubly come... thx  also i would like 1-1-1 some caind of nerf to be tested at list...
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On August 29 2011 03:52 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 22:52 R0YAL wrote:On August 28 2011 22:42 SeaSwift wrote:On August 28 2011 22:32 Plexa wrote:
Easiest way to 'fix' mules is to accept that they aren't broken -.-; Hmm. I know you're the admin and all, but unless there's a decent discussion to be had rather than just baseless assertions like "x is broken" "no x is fine" I'd recommend not posting at all, because the thread will just devolve further. I was quite happy with a number of lengthy posts on the previous page, and although I'm not a mod/whatever on this website I think it would be a shame for the posts to turn into what they were earlier again. I feel that if you look at the situation logically, Lurk is absolutely right. MULEs are essentially an extra 3+ workers mining for the whole game per Orbital minus time for Supply cooldown/Scans. If MULEs were replaced by another mechanic which still just helped Terran keep up with P/Z in the economy (like chrono etc) then the problem would still remain with the 1-1-1. If Terran just produced workers faster every so often they would just leave some behind and continue with the attack as normal. The problem is NOT the MULEs, I would say (and yes, I agree with your statement Plexa just not the way you went about it). The problem is the efficiency of the Terran units, particularly the Marine, and the synergy between them all. Protoss has good unit synergy but to compensate for that Protoss units are individually inefficient the vast majority of the time. I think SCVs need slightly less health or Marines need slightly less DPS. I don't understand why Marines became so much more efficient compared to BW in the first place. You and me both. Zerglings got nerfed hard compared to their bw counterpart. Its much harder in the early game for Zergs in sc2, since Zerglings were so much stronger the Terran had to build up more marines or else he would lose everything for basically nothing. Marines in sc2 don't need to research +1 range, they just have it. Also, units in sc2 squeeze together into a ball so that increases marines dps and reduces the surface area, not to mention stutter-step micro is really good and not hard to pull off. And on top of everything Zerg no longer has creep colonies so they cannot build reactive defenses like they could in bw. Spines take a long time to build, much longer than bunkers. just preemptively build like 5 or 6 spines?. Not like you can't reproduce drones at superspeed... also, sc2=/=bw. "oh god something changed from my 10 year old game and i can't play the same way.. nerf please!" is not a good attitude
ROFL, don't participate in balance discussions when you have no idea what you are talking about. 5-6 preemptive spines in the early game. genius
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On August 29 2011 03:59 bole wrote:can enybody answer when this patch will come ? i dont have a clue so if somebody can answer when will probubly come... thx also i would like 1-1-1 some caind of nerf to be tested at list...
When it's done (enough test, feedback & changes)
Patch 1.3.0 lasted 1 month on PTR if you want some comparaison.
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On August 29 2011 03:25 rohanim41 wrote:
My upset about Mules, is not principally about terran all-ins with SCVs as meat shields but about very early economy. as soon as the first orbital command is complete protoss might have 1-2 3 max probes more than terran but terran suddendly gets 4 workers worth of mining for free, and protoss rarely use all their early game chronoboost on probes, so the economy advantage goes to terran whatever you do. Against zerg, the economy difference depends on the amount of drones and timing of hatch but they can easily put pressure on zerg before their second hatchery is even mining.
If you prefer : 240 ~ mins per mule is a gateway and a zealot the protoss could have a lot earlier and makes things a lot less complicated
Dont forget, that probes only need to place a building and then they can return to harvest. SCVs can't do that.
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On August 29 2011 04:19 Shade_CsT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 03:59 bole wrote:can enybody answer when this patch will come ? i dont have a clue so if somebody can answer when will probubly come... thx also i would like 1-1-1 some caind of nerf to be tested at list... When it's done (enough test, feedback & changes) Patch 1.3.0 lasted 1 month on PTR if you want some comparaison.
thx m8 but it would be cool to add change for 1-1-1 nerf becous then game will be i think perfectly balanced for WOL.... but after HOTS comes i think they could change things like fungel not afect air or something like that... and insted of coropters they could add thous staf from BW... like batriders from wc3 that kill themselfs in air ... also hidralysc could be revorked in HOTS... i think...
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I'm bummed to see hellions get nerfed. It probably needed it, but how often do you get 3 hits on workers? Would've liked to see infestors nerfed more, and don't totally understand the barracks build time. I'd like to see the infestor have friendly fire damage.
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EPT
