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Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 209

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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne

There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
NATO
Profile Joined April 2010
United States459 Posts
August 28 2011 23:28 GMT
#4161
PF also means you can't get an orbital.
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
August 28 2011 23:30 GMT
#4162
On August 29 2011 08:28 NATO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2011 07:58 Elefanto wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:55 NATO wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:51 leakingpear wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:43 NATO wrote:
From a Terran player's perspective, I think the hellion nerf is VERY bad. It ruins that matchup. Does anyone know why Blizzard actually did this? Seems like it's not actually that good against the other races. For instance, greedy zerg with no defenses, and terrible control when defending still ends up ahead in workers right after the harass is over - and then since terran has no army to push, they can just drone 10 times right after.


Probably because blue flame hellions as is require a perfect defence all game long, usually with considerably higher cost of units or static defence than the amount of hellions sent, where if 1 or 2 hellions get through they can completely eradicate the economy and win the game. I don't think it won't be a hit to terrans but I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to have a unit with the ability to do that much damage at once that's also that cheap, fast and small. If it proves that it makes terran too weak against all in lings or zealots or something I imagine they'll look at buffs in different areas but given previous it's unlikely Blizzard would turn around on something like this (see void rays, infestors).


4 hellions cost 400 minerals.
One spine or canon costs 150.

Compare this to the defense a terran needs against a zerg to just stay alive from lings, and it seems pretty cheap.


You mean build one salvageable bunker?
Yeah, seems pretty expensive for a terran.


I mean at least 3 turrets for mutas, PF, and at least two tanks. The rest can be filled with buildings you need anyway.

eeeuh, you said "Compare this to the defense a terran needs against a zerg to just stay alive from lings, and it seems pretty cheap. " where did you mention mutas and the whole other zerg army?
bole
Profile Joined January 2011
Serbia164 Posts
August 28 2011 23:38 GMT
#4163
i noticed something if can somebody answer.... whatche some PvT casting and i noticed Force Fealds over comand centar... (worker cant repare it) (planetary forthres) is that imba ?

problem is worker cant repare it... so nerf would be that you cant FF on buildings or something... or worker can pass to buildings if they need to repare it true FF....
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
August 28 2011 23:42 GMT
#4164
On August 29 2011 08:38 bole wrote:
i noticed something if can somebody answer.... whatche some PvT casting and i noticed Force Fealds over comand centar... (worker cant repare it) (planetary forthres) is that imba ?

problem is worker cant repare it... so nerf would be that you cant FF on buildings or something... or worker can pass to buildings if they need to repare it true FF....

That's been around for quite a while. It's a legit strategy to help with bunker busting and such. Without it, it because even harder for Protoss to bust the Terran's front.

I don't think the general consensus is that it's necessarily imba...Force fields are super strong tho.
tomatriedes
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
New Zealand5356 Posts
August 28 2011 23:43 GMT
#4165
On August 29 2011 08:38 bole wrote:
i noticed something if can somebody answer.... whatche some PvT casting and i noticed Force Fealds over comand centar... (worker cant repare it) (planetary forthres) is that imba ?

problem is worker cant repare it... so nerf would be that you cant FF on buildings or something... or worker can pass to buildings if they need to repare it true FF....


Planetary fortress with mass repair isn't strong enough already? Are you trolling?
NATO
Profile Joined April 2010
United States459 Posts
August 28 2011 23:43 GMT
#4166
On August 29 2011 08:30 Assirra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2011 08:28 NATO wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:58 Elefanto wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:55 NATO wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:51 leakingpear wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:43 NATO wrote:
From a Terran player's perspective, I think the hellion nerf is VERY bad. It ruins that matchup. Does anyone know why Blizzard actually did this? Seems like it's not actually that good against the other races. For instance, greedy zerg with no defenses, and terrible control when defending still ends up ahead in workers right after the harass is over - and then since terran has no army to push, they can just drone 10 times right after.


Probably because blue flame hellions as is require a perfect defence all game long, usually with considerably higher cost of units or static defence than the amount of hellions sent, where if 1 or 2 hellions get through they can completely eradicate the economy and win the game. I don't think it won't be a hit to terrans but I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to have a unit with the ability to do that much damage at once that's also that cheap, fast and small. If it proves that it makes terran too weak against all in lings or zealots or something I imagine they'll look at buffs in different areas but given previous it's unlikely Blizzard would turn around on something like this (see void rays, infestors).


4 hellions cost 400 minerals.
One spine or canon costs 150.

Compare this to the defense a terran needs against a zerg to just stay alive from lings, and it seems pretty cheap.


You mean build one salvageable bunker?
Yeah, seems pretty expensive for a terran.


I mean at least 3 turrets for mutas, PF, and at least two tanks. The rest can be filled with buildings you need anyway.

eeeuh, you said "Compare this to the defense a terran needs against a zerg to just stay alive from lings, and it seems pretty cheap. " where did you mention mutas and the whole other zerg army?


Fair point, however since banelings are possibly even more of a problem, the tanks are necessary.
gosuMalicE
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada676 Posts
August 28 2011 23:57 GMT
#4167
On August 29 2011 08:38 bole wrote:
i noticed something if can somebody answer.... whatche some PvT casting and i noticed Force Fealds over comand centar... (worker cant repare it) (planetary forthres) is that imba ?

problem is worker cant repare it... so nerf would be that you cant FF on buildings or something... or worker can pass to buildings if they need to repare it true FF....

It is a fairly legitimate tactic, it allows Protoss to break a mass repaired PF or a heavily bunkered front, How is this op?
I play Protoss, because lets face it, who doesn't love hyper-advanced Egyptian ninja-aliens that kill people with lightsabres attached to both arms?
DoublespeakUS
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States55 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-29 00:00:32
August 28 2011 23:58 GMT
#4168
Edit:

The barracks time will be interesting for me. I still think blue flame hellions will be useful. At least a small force for harrass and worker killing.
MMA/Select/Thorzain
Kiangani
Profile Joined April 2011
United States122 Posts
August 29 2011 00:02 GMT
#4169
On August 29 2011 08:38 bole wrote:
i noticed something if can somebody answer.... whatche some PvT casting and i noticed Force Fealds over comand centar... (worker cant repare it) (planetary forthres) is that imba ?

problem is worker cant repare it... so nerf would be that you cant FF on buildings or something... or worker can pass to buildings if they need to repare it true FF....


Not imba at all, very intentional and public knowledge. If toss couldn't FF around bunkers then they would never, ever be able to successfully do an early attack unless their opponent fails to scout anything at all.
"david some do it T>T" - The Emperor, SlayerS BoxeR, MLG Pro Circuit 2011 Anaheim
bole
Profile Joined January 2011
Serbia164 Posts
August 29 2011 00:16 GMT
#4170
On August 29 2011 09:02 Kiangani wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2011 08:38 bole wrote:
i noticed something if can somebody answer.... whatche some PvT casting and i noticed Force Fealds over comand centar... (worker cant repare it) (planetary forthres) is that imba ?

problem is worker cant repare it... so nerf would be that you cant FF on buildings or something... or worker can pass to buildings if they need to repare it true FF....


Not imba at all, very intentional and public knowledge. If toss couldn't FF around bunkers then they would never, ever be able to successfully do an early attack unless their opponent fails to scout anything at all.



ok thx ppl i was yust asking... nothing special... simply whatched some games and i noticed that one... FF is simular to banglings for planetary forthres... we can move on now ... to 1-1-1 nerf would be cool for PTR now becuse long time we didnt have cance for PTR... (at list test some staf to nerf 1-1-1)...
IVN
Profile Joined October 2010
534 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-29 00:32:49
August 29 2011 00:31 GMT
#4171
On August 29 2011 08:38 bole wrote:
i noticed something if can somebody answer.... whatche some PvT casting and i noticed Force Fealds over comand centar... (worker cant repare it) (planetary forthres) is that imba ?

problem is worker cant repare it... so nerf would be that you cant FF on buildings or something... or worker can pass to buildings if they need to repare it true FF....

What other race can repair their buildings?

It isnt enough that a PF shoots back, has sick splash damage and can be repaired, but it also has to be FF proof, so that every noob playing terran can beat MC?

How should a protoss be able to kill a terran expansion? with massive storms and 6 colossi?


And how does a terran kill P's expo? With 4-8 stimed marauders.
See the difference here? If not, let me give you a hint: killing an expo as protoss requires skill, while doing it as terran requires far less.
R0YAL
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States1768 Posts
August 29 2011 00:42 GMT
#4172
On August 29 2011 03:52 Active.815 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 22:52 R0YAL wrote:
On August 28 2011 22:42 SeaSwift wrote:
On August 28 2011 22:32 Plexa wrote:
Easiest way to 'fix' mules is to accept that they aren't broken -.-;


Hmm. I know you're the admin and all, but unless there's a decent discussion to be had rather than just baseless assertions like "x is broken" "no x is fine" I'd recommend not posting at all, because the thread will just devolve further. I was quite happy with a number of lengthy posts on the previous page, and although I'm not a mod/whatever on this website I think it would be a shame for the posts to turn into what they were earlier again.

I feel that if you look at the situation logically, Lurk is absolutely right. MULEs are essentially an extra 3+ workers mining for the whole game per Orbital minus time for Supply cooldown/Scans. If MULEs were replaced by another mechanic which still just helped Terran keep up with P/Z in the economy (like chrono etc) then the problem would still remain with the 1-1-1. If Terran just produced workers faster every so often they would just leave some behind and continue with the attack as normal. The problem is NOT the MULEs, I would say (and yes, I agree with your statement Plexa just not the way you went about it). The problem is the efficiency of the Terran units, particularly the Marine, and the synergy between them all. Protoss has good unit synergy but to compensate for that Protoss units are individually inefficient the vast majority of the time. I think SCVs need slightly less health or Marines need slightly less DPS. I don't understand why Marines became so much more efficient compared to BW in the first place.

You and me both. Zerglings got nerfed hard compared to their bw counterpart. Its much harder in the early game for Zergs in sc2, since Zerglings were so much stronger the Terran had to build up more marines or else he would lose everything for basically nothing. Marines in sc2 don't need to research +1 range, they just have it. Also, units in sc2 squeeze together into a ball so that increases marines dps and reduces the surface area, not to mention stutter-step micro is really good and not hard to pull off. And on top of everything Zerg no longer has creep colonies so they cannot build reactive defenses like they could in bw. Spines take a long time to build, much longer than bunkers.


just preemptively build like 5 or 6 spines?. Not like you can't reproduce drones at superspeed...

also, sc2=/=bw. "oh god something changed from my 10 year old game and i can't play the same way.. nerf please!" is not a good attitude

You completely missed the point..

I was comparing them to each other. I can compare an apple to an orange but that doesn't mean that I think they are the same thing.

The message that you should have gotten is that Terran is significantly stronger in the early game in sc2 compared to bw and Zerg is severely weaker and more volatile in the early game.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Moshex
Profile Joined August 2011
Israel8 Posts
August 29 2011 01:28 GMT
#4173
people say infestor op infestor op but they forget siege tank do the same damage and instantly
and psi storm destory armys in a second while the ht no longer ht and they make insane damage
HinagikUx
Profile Joined January 2011
United States178 Posts
August 29 2011 01:37 GMT
#4174
On August 29 2011 10:28 Moshex wrote:
people say infestor op infestor op but they forget siege tank do the same damage and instantly
and psi storm destory armys in a second while the ht no longer ht and they make insane damage


you also forget that tanks are immobile in seige mode. HT is a t3 unit, psi storm costs 200/200 to research, temp archives is 150/200, and Twilight council is 150/100 ; almost impossible to afford off 2 base. storm and tank splash also damage your own units. Most people avoid about half of storm by running their units away. Infestors keep the units in place, have high movement speed for a caster, dont damage your own units, do bonus dmg to armored, arent T3, fungal isnt a researchable upgrade that costs alot of gas like seige mode and storm. They also have infested terran for good harassment
uGpTaiga/HinagikUx NA Server
Fancy.
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany58 Posts
August 29 2011 01:38 GMT
#4175
On August 29 2011 10:28 Moshex wrote:
people say infestor op infestor op but they forget siege tank do the same damage and instantly
and psi storm destory armys in a second while the ht no longer ht and they make insane damage


Except that siege tanks can't move while being in siege mode, so they need a preparation time, while infestors can fungle right away( as long as you have the energy of course). Storm is dodgeable. On the other hand, if you get hit by a single fungle, it usually will result in chain-fungle which will eventually kill your units. It has to be frustrating, so i can see the reasoning for that nerf.

Zerg speaking
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-29 01:53:21
August 29 2011 01:45 GMT
#4176
Got PTR now. Thx to Starter Edition. Seeker Missile can kill a lot workers, but BFH with 19 damage is ok, 3 shots to kill workers and 2 shots still vs zerglings is very nice and accurate change.
rohanim41
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada60 Posts
August 29 2011 01:51 GMT
#4177
On August 29 2011 04:22 acidbean wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2011 03:25 rohanim41 wrote:
My upset about Mules, is not principally about terran all-ins with SCVs as meat shields but about very early economy. as soon as the first orbital command is complete protoss might have 1-2 3 max probes more than terran but terran suddendly gets 4 workers worth of mining for free, and protoss rarely use all their early game chronoboost on probes, so the economy advantage goes to terran whatever you do. Against zerg, the economy difference depends on the amount of drones and timing of hatch but they can easily put pressure on zerg before their second hatchery is even mining.
If you prefer : 240 ~ mins per mule is a gateway and a zealot the protoss could have a lot earlier and makes things a lot less complicated


Dont forget, that probes only need to place a building and then they can return to harvest. SCVs can't do that.


Yeah i didn't think of that and it is a big factor, thanks Lurk too for illuminating me, it amazes me that blizzard managed to create and adapt SC2 for it to be so balanced between 3 races that are working completely different, and the build timings work so well with themseleves, this is an awesome game, and I can't wait for the patch to come out.
hunter seeker missile are freaking awesome as viewers, immortals can now do the role they were made for and fungal isn't as effective against everything anymore, it sucks to lose to mass fungals then lings come clean up sooo fast.
It's just a game.... but it's a damn good game !
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
August 29 2011 02:00 GMT
#4178
On August 29 2011 08:43 NATO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2011 08:30 Assirra wrote:
On August 29 2011 08:28 NATO wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:58 Elefanto wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:55 NATO wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:51 leakingpear wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:43 NATO wrote:
From a Terran player's perspective, I think the hellion nerf is VERY bad. It ruins that matchup. Does anyone know why Blizzard actually did this? Seems like it's not actually that good against the other races. For instance, greedy zerg with no defenses, and terrible control when defending still ends up ahead in workers right after the harass is over - and then since terran has no army to push, they can just drone 10 times right after.


Probably because blue flame hellions as is require a perfect defence all game long, usually with considerably higher cost of units or static defence than the amount of hellions sent, where if 1 or 2 hellions get through they can completely eradicate the economy and win the game. I don't think it won't be a hit to terrans but I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to have a unit with the ability to do that much damage at once that's also that cheap, fast and small. If it proves that it makes terran too weak against all in lings or zealots or something I imagine they'll look at buffs in different areas but given previous it's unlikely Blizzard would turn around on something like this (see void rays, infestors).


4 hellions cost 400 minerals.
One spine or canon costs 150.

Compare this to the defense a terran needs against a zerg to just stay alive from lings, and it seems pretty cheap.


You mean build one salvageable bunker?
Yeah, seems pretty expensive for a terran.


I mean at least 3 turrets for mutas, PF, and at least two tanks. The rest can be filled with buildings you need anyway.

eeeuh, you said "Compare this to the defense a terran needs against a zerg to just stay alive from lings, and it seems pretty cheap. " where did you mention mutas and the whole other zerg army?


Fair point, however since banelings are possibly even more of a problem, the tanks are necessary.


Even without the banelings, if you don't have a solid wall up front, lings can infiltrate your natural expo defenses and render it inoperable as well as devastate any SCVs caught. If you do spend the money on a wall, there's always the possibility of banelings as well, requiring a secondary position to defend after a bust. To compare, 1-2 spine crawlers + normal lings/queens are more than enough to defend from any reasonable number of BFHs by the 8 minute mark. Any commitment greater than what could be stopped by that defense is going to do damage, but without a way to capitalize on that damage.

Also, if you REALLY think "1 salvageable bunker" is enough to stop a ling run-by, there is little wonder why you think ANY Terran nerf would be ok.
chaosdarkprince
Profile Joined November 2010
Ecuador52 Posts
August 29 2011 02:05 GMT
#4179
"Repeated control group and selection commands will no longer count as unique actions for APM calculation purposes"
THIS will be the difference between gosu and chobo... now we will se who are the players with highest EFFECTIVE APM... i think this is gonna make watching and arguing about APM much more usefull...
Khas Naradahk!!
Ballistixz
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1269 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-29 02:19:58
August 29 2011 02:14 GMT
#4180
On August 29 2011 10:28 Moshex wrote:
people say infestor op infestor op but they forget siege tank do the same damage and instantly
and psi storm destory armys in a second while the ht no longer ht and they make insane damage



the main reason ppl QQ about infestors is not because of the damage they deal (the damage actually sucks compared to storm and HSM) they QQ because of the rooting effect it has.


what ppl dont notice is that forcefields are just as good. place proper force fields and u can trap a army for some sick storms or allow the colos splash dmg to be that much more effective. ghosts are able to take 100 shields off of toss units near instantly. most toss units (gate way units in particular) dont even have 100 shields so thats half there health instantly gone. and concussive shells pretty much prevents any kind of retreate if u stutter step micro/kite.

infestors are not as OP as ppl think they are. infestors are the main back bone of the zerg army just like sentries for toss or marines for terran.
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