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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 29 2011 14:55 Zahki wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 11:14 Ballistixz wrote:
the main reason ppl QQ about infestors is not because of the damage they deal (the damage actually sucks compared to storm and HSM) they QQ because of the rooting effect it has.
If this is true then you realise the 'infestor buff' that supposedly made infestors too powerful was actually a nerf right? It halved the duration for 8 to 4 seconds, if the rooting effect is really what people are complaining about then it was 100% worse beforehand. So I really doubt thats it. I'd be fine with Infestors going back to that, 8 second root but no additional damage to armored.
But that's not really true, because of the ability to stack fungals. Once a unit is rooted, it will stay rooted until:
a) it is dead
b) Z runs out of infestors w/ energy
c) Z lets it escape, by mismicro or intention
Thought of like this, the first fungal change essentially doubled fungal's dps in exchange for doubling its energy cost. The root itself is critical, but the root's duration is completely irrelevant, because once something is rooted, it can be kept in that state for as long as you have infestors able to fungal.
Now that's not wholly realistic, obviously, because sometimes it's not worth dancing with EMP/feedback/tank shells to place an extra fungal, but it does suggest that the true power of the spell is absolutely in its root, whether 4s or 8s.
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really looking forward to the update, happy about infestor nerf. everyone knew it was coming ^^
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On August 29 2011 15:11 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 14:55 Zahki wrote:On August 29 2011 11:14 Ballistixz wrote:
the main reason ppl QQ about infestors is not because of the damage they deal (the damage actually sucks compared to storm and HSM) they QQ because of the rooting effect it has.
If this is true then you realise the 'infestor buff' that supposedly made infestors too powerful was actually a nerf right? It halved the duration for 8 to 4 seconds, if the rooting effect is really what people are complaining about then it was 100% worse beforehand. So I really doubt thats it. I'd be fine with Infestors going back to that, 8 second root but no additional damage to armored. But that's not really true, because of the ability to stack fungals. Once a unit is rooted, it will stay rooted until: a) it is dead b) Z runs out of infestors w/ energy c) Z lets it escape, by mismicro or intention Thought of like this, the first fungal change essentially doubled fungal's dps in exchange for doubling its energy cost. Now obviously that's not realistic, because your infestors get feedbacked or EMP'd and you can't give them 100% attention because of macro etc, but it still shows that the root is arguably as powerful at 4s as it was at 8s, and the extra dps is huge in combination with that.
8s was actually a lot worse. It's very hard to chain fungals on large amounts units with 8s intervals. Not to mention the fact that you have no hope out DPSing a medivac with an 8s Fungal.
4s hold duration is a nerf, 4s better DPS is a huge buff and makes infestors actually useable against things like marines and blink stalkers.
Not really sure why Blizz wants to nerf the only Z spell that is useful and buff other T spells. I feel like T has enough "cool" stuff.
I saw only one game in MLG where Infestors were used by Coca effectively against a greedy Huk. If they were that overpowered, I'm sure we would have seen them a lot more.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 29 2011 15:05 Autun wrote:
I've seen a lot of people complaining about the Overseer Contamination "nerf."
Feedback with Dark Templar is actually quite strong because you can kill all of the Overseers. This might just make it easier to get rid of the energy prior to fighting,
Just a thought. This makes it consistent with the cost decrease, or maybe as some suggested a pre-emptive buffering to them being cheaper.
You could always just spam changelings.
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I like most of the changes. Hellions got nerfed a little too hard though. +5 makes the upgrade worthless unless you are going a heavy hellion strat.
The contaminate change is necessary when you take into account the overseer cost change. Imagine infinite overseers contaminating everything. Yea pretty much why they changed it.
Ultra timings can be scary now.
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I love the +5sec to barracks build time, because that will help zergs a lot.
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On August 29 2011 14:58 acrimoneyius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 14:28 nemo14 wrote:On August 29 2011 14:04 NATO wrote:On August 29 2011 13:56 Xain wrote:
While I think this patch is quite good, there's a problem Blizzard ought to tackle at some point, and is probably the one major design flaw and imbalance with terran: the "true-maxed" terran. See Bomber vs DRG game 1 at Raleigh for a very good example.
In the late game, terrans can sack their SCVs, replacing them with mules from their orbital "farm", thus having a way bigger army and a good economy at the same time. I don't see how this is supposed to be balanced, because for the 2 other races economy comes at the price of army size at that point.
I think they should put a supply cost to the mule, perhaps putting you in the red if you cast it, somewhat like the extractor trick (and so it still lets you cast it anytime), but preventing you from achieving the "true-maxed" terran lategame, which is absurd. At least try it in the PTR? Try building a bunch of spines and cancelling them. You can literally have more than 200 food. Ehhhh. You need to be floating 2000 minerals (if you're using spines) plus the cost of whatever units you're about to make in order to get to 220 food. You lose mining time on drones, you lose the cancel penalty for each spine, all for a 15% larger army. Yes that is significantly helpful, but no one in a serious ZvT is ever going to have enough money in the bank to fill that 20 supply with anything other than T1 units. It's one of those things that everybody talks about being able to do but only applies in a few situations that are not likely to arise in a pro-level game. Orbital farms easily cost 2000+ minerals, it should always happen in late game unless the pro's multi-tasking is lacking.
Except with Orbital farms you make them over time starting from the your first orbital in your main base.
with the spine way you need to have that 2000 minerals right there and then since once you are over 200 supply you can't simply just try it again. Lets not even mention the units you want to make.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On August 29 2011 17:34 Assirra wrote:
Except with Orbital farms you make them over time starting from the your first orbital in your main base.
with the spine way you need to have that 2000 minerals right there and then since once you are over 200 supply you can't simply just try it again. Lets not even mention the units you want to make.
mule gives you 180 mins/minute, replacing 4-6 scvs depending on the saturation.
an orbital can maintain one mule.
in order to have a mineral income from 3 bases, you need at least 12 orbitals dropping pure mules (no scans).
that's 6600 minerals.
an orbital pays off for itself after 315 seconds (over 5 minutes) game time. occupation of scvs not calculated.
facit: orbitals late game are no way overpowered, and hardly compensate for disadvantages in the pace of reproduction terrans have compared to other races.
stop calling for a mule nerf. it will never happen.
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On August 29 2011 15:29 RodYan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 15:11 Belisarius wrote:On August 29 2011 14:55 Zahki wrote:On August 29 2011 11:14 Ballistixz wrote:
the main reason ppl QQ about infestors is not because of the damage they deal (the damage actually sucks compared to storm and HSM) they QQ because of the rooting effect it has.
If this is true then you realise the 'infestor buff' that supposedly made infestors too powerful was actually a nerf right? It halved the duration for 8 to 4 seconds, if the rooting effect is really what people are complaining about then it was 100% worse beforehand. So I really doubt thats it. I'd be fine with Infestors going back to that, 8 second root but no additional damage to armored. But that's not really true, because of the ability to stack fungals. Once a unit is rooted, it will stay rooted until: a) it is dead b) Z runs out of infestors w/ energy c) Z lets it escape, by mismicro or intention Thought of like this, the first fungal change essentially doubled fungal's dps in exchange for doubling its energy cost. Now obviously that's not realistic, because your infestors get feedbacked or EMP'd and you can't give them 100% attention because of macro etc, but it still shows that the root is arguably as powerful at 4s as it was at 8s, and the extra dps is huge in combination with that. 8s was actually a lot worse. It's very hard to chain fungals on large amounts units with 8s intervals. Not to mention the fact that you have no hope out DPSing a medivac with an 8s Fungal. 4s hold duration is a nerf, 4s better DPS is a huge buff and makes infestors actually useable against things like marines and blink stalkers. Not really sure why Blizz wants to nerf the only Z spell that is useful and buff other T spells. I feel like T has enough "cool" stuff. I saw only one game in MLG where Infestors were used by Coca effectively against a greedy Huk. If they were that overpowered, I'm sure we would have seen them a lot more.
Even as a Zerg player, I think HSM needs to be used more. If tweaked correctly I'll bet it'd make watching Terran a lot more fun.
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On August 29 2011 17:53 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 15:29 RodYan wrote:On August 29 2011 15:11 Belisarius wrote:On August 29 2011 14:55 Zahki wrote:On August 29 2011 11:14 Ballistixz wrote:
the main reason ppl QQ about infestors is not because of the damage they deal (the damage actually sucks compared to storm and HSM) they QQ because of the rooting effect it has.
If this is true then you realise the 'infestor buff' that supposedly made infestors too powerful was actually a nerf right? It halved the duration for 8 to 4 seconds, if the rooting effect is really what people are complaining about then it was 100% worse beforehand. So I really doubt thats it. I'd be fine with Infestors going back to that, 8 second root but no additional damage to armored. But that's not really true, because of the ability to stack fungals. Once a unit is rooted, it will stay rooted until: a) it is dead b) Z runs out of infestors w/ energy c) Z lets it escape, by mismicro or intention Thought of like this, the first fungal change essentially doubled fungal's dps in exchange for doubling its energy cost. Now obviously that's not realistic, because your infestors get feedbacked or EMP'd and you can't give them 100% attention because of macro etc, but it still shows that the root is arguably as powerful at 4s as it was at 8s, and the extra dps is huge in combination with that. 8s was actually a lot worse. It's very hard to chain fungals on large amounts units with 8s intervals. Not to mention the fact that you have no hope out DPSing a medivac with an 8s Fungal. 4s hold duration is a nerf, 4s better DPS is a huge buff and makes infestors actually useable against things like marines and blink stalkers. Not really sure why Blizz wants to nerf the only Z spell that is useful and buff other T spells. I feel like T has enough "cool" stuff. I saw only one game in MLG where Infestors were used by Coca effectively against a greedy Huk. If they were that overpowered, I'm sure we would have seen them a lot more. Even as a Zerg player, I think HSM needs to be used more. If tweaked correctly I'll bet it'd make watching Terran a lot more fun.
As a protoss-player, I agree - the HSM reminds me of the scourge, where you sit at the edge of your seat and go "will it hit, WILL IT???"
Stuff like that makes WATCHIN (!) the game epic. Macro-fests are challenging for a player, but usually not that entertaining to watch for a casual audience.
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I don't get the barracks time increase. Blizz nerfed zealot build time by 5 secs because proxy 2 gate was too powerful vs T, now they want to make it so the first marine comes out 5 seconds later?
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Just realized, still no Carrier change T.T
Why won't Blizzard atleast try SOMETHING? Build time, movement speed, uhhh idk what else they are missing seeing as they have the highest dps in the game but either build time or movement speed would be a great thing to try.
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On August 29 2011 18:38 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 17:53 Jojo131 wrote:On August 29 2011 15:29 RodYan wrote:On August 29 2011 15:11 Belisarius wrote:On August 29 2011 14:55 Zahki wrote:On August 29 2011 11:14 Ballistixz wrote:
the main reason ppl QQ about infestors is not because of the damage they deal (the damage actually sucks compared to storm and HSM) they QQ because of the rooting effect it has.
If this is true then you realise the 'infestor buff' that supposedly made infestors too powerful was actually a nerf right? It halved the duration for 8 to 4 seconds, if the rooting effect is really what people are complaining about then it was 100% worse beforehand. So I really doubt thats it. I'd be fine with Infestors going back to that, 8 second root but no additional damage to armored. But that's not really true, because of the ability to stack fungals. Once a unit is rooted, it will stay rooted until: a) it is dead b) Z runs out of infestors w/ energy c) Z lets it escape, by mismicro or intention Thought of like this, the first fungal change essentially doubled fungal's dps in exchange for doubling its energy cost. Now obviously that's not realistic, because your infestors get feedbacked or EMP'd and you can't give them 100% attention because of macro etc, but it still shows that the root is arguably as powerful at 4s as it was at 8s, and the extra dps is huge in combination with that. 8s was actually a lot worse. It's very hard to chain fungals on large amounts units with 8s intervals. Not to mention the fact that you have no hope out DPSing a medivac with an 8s Fungal. 4s hold duration is a nerf, 4s better DPS is a huge buff and makes infestors actually useable against things like marines and blink stalkers. Not really sure why Blizz wants to nerf the only Z spell that is useful and buff other T spells. I feel like T has enough "cool" stuff. I saw only one game in MLG where Infestors were used by Coca effectively against a greedy Huk. If they were that overpowered, I'm sure we would have seen them a lot more. Even as a Zerg player, I think HSM needs to be used more. If tweaked correctly I'll bet it'd make watching Terran a lot more fun. As a protoss-player, I agree - the HSM reminds me of the scourge, where you sit at the edge of your seat and go "will it hit, WILL IT???" Stuff like that makes WATCHIN (!) the game epic. Macro-fests are challenging for a player, but usually not that entertaining to watch for a casual audience.
not likely unless HSM gets a major buff... for 125 energy and a research tech, you need something MORE useful than a PDD, or something safer to use so that you don't sacrifice your unit for a measly 100 damage.
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On August 29 2011 03:15 Lurk wrote:
As i said before, the fundamental principle why terran allins work is the synergy between the scv and the marine. Or in general a meatshield unit with a high-dps low-hp ranged unit. In theory, a drone/hydra push would just be as deadly, but the techtree limitations prevent such a push early enough in the game to work.
SCVs having 5 more hp and being able to repair themselves as well as all the small benefits the MULE mechanic might give are all just small factors. Giving the MULE mechanic to zerg would not make drone/ling allins work, giving marines to zerg would make drone/marine allins work though.
If you want to fix terran allins without breaking the game, the way to do it is to lower the synergy between marines and SCVs. Nerfing terran units or MULES or anything other that is not actually the core of the problem, might fix allins too - but it will also throw the rest of the game out of balance.
Very interesting thoughts. There's only one conclusion possible from that: let's make the marine a.. melee unit ! Yay, problem solved, after all Terran is the only race that only has ranged units, it's no fair :p
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Even though I play Random... I'm still happy they are nerfing blue flame. It's just ridiculous how easy it is to wreck worker lines with a small group of pre igniter upgraded hellions.
I feel like I'm playing Brood War again where you suicide a group of vultures to eat a whole saturated base. I agree that the nerf may seem a bit too much, but I feel like something has to be done with the blue flame extravaganza in every matchup.
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On August 29 2011 18:54 Hall0wed wrote:
Just realized, still no Carrier change T.T
Why won't Blizzard atleast try SOMETHING? Build time, movement speed, uhhh idk what else they are missing seeing as they have the highest dps in the game but either build time or movement speed would be a great thing to try.
Carriers are good against lategame Terran Mech, thats been their use since broodwar. They serve a purpose and they do it pretty damn well.
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I really wish Blizzard would fix PvP. As it is basically a coin toss, it makes the race unsuited for competetitive play.
Who wants to spend thousands of hours preparing for a tournament when there is a 50% random chance that you will lose if you are thrown against another toss? There is a reason that most top players are Terran, it is due to it being so solid in TvT, as the better player almost always wins then. Overall, Terran is a bit more complete and solid in the other match-ups as well. Unlike the other races they both have solid defense and solid harass.
This is in my opinion by far the worst balance of the game in my opinion. PvP and ZvZ (to some degree) really has to be made into less of a dice roll or just more and more top players will be Terran.
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On August 29 2011 19:26 Paladia wrote:
I really wish Blizzard would fix PvP. As it is basically a coin toss, it makes the race unsuited for competetitive play.
Who wants to spend thousands of hours preparing for a tournament when there is a 50% random chance that you will lose if you are thrown against another toss? There is a reason that most top players are Terran, it is due to it being so solid in TvT, as the better player almost always wins then. Overall, Terran is a bit more complete and solid in the other match-ups as well. Unlike the other races they both have solid defense and solid harass.
This is in my opinion by far the worst balance of the game in my opinion. PvP and ZvZ (to some degree) really has to be made into less of a dice roll or just more and more top players will be Terran.
That patch is gonna make PvP ALOT more stable.
4gate will be dead, 4 gate blink all-ins will be dead, dt rushes as well because
2 gate robo will be the safe, robust to go build.
Maybe stargate will have a resurgence, but we'll have to see for that one.
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PvP/ZvZ are volatile, not dicerolls. There's a big difference. Just look at Nestea's winrate to see how silly the idea of ZvZ as a diceroll is!
And as mentioned, PvP is going to stabilise a lot with the new patch.
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On August 29 2011 19:03 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 18:38 sleepingdog wrote:On August 29 2011 17:53 Jojo131 wrote:On August 29 2011 15:29 RodYan wrote:On August 29 2011 15:11 Belisarius wrote:On August 29 2011 14:55 Zahki wrote:On August 29 2011 11:14 Ballistixz wrote:
the main reason ppl QQ about infestors is not because of the damage they deal (the damage actually sucks compared to storm and HSM) they QQ because of the rooting effect it has.
If this is true then you realise the 'infestor buff' that supposedly made infestors too powerful was actually a nerf right? It halved the duration for 8 to 4 seconds, if the rooting effect is really what people are complaining about then it was 100% worse beforehand. So I really doubt thats it. I'd be fine with Infestors going back to that, 8 second root but no additional damage to armored. But that's not really true, because of the ability to stack fungals. Once a unit is rooted, it will stay rooted until: a) it is dead b) Z runs out of infestors w/ energy c) Z lets it escape, by mismicro or intention Thought of like this, the first fungal change essentially doubled fungal's dps in exchange for doubling its energy cost. Now obviously that's not realistic, because your infestors get feedbacked or EMP'd and you can't give them 100% attention because of macro etc, but it still shows that the root is arguably as powerful at 4s as it was at 8s, and the extra dps is huge in combination with that. 8s was actually a lot worse. It's very hard to chain fungals on large amounts units with 8s intervals. Not to mention the fact that you have no hope out DPSing a medivac with an 8s Fungal. 4s hold duration is a nerf, 4s better DPS is a huge buff and makes infestors actually useable against things like marines and blink stalkers. Not really sure why Blizz wants to nerf the only Z spell that is useful and buff other T spells. I feel like T has enough "cool" stuff. I saw only one game in MLG where Infestors were used by Coca effectively against a greedy Huk. If they were that overpowered, I'm sure we would have seen them a lot more. Even as a Zerg player, I think HSM needs to be used more. If tweaked correctly I'll bet it'd make watching Terran a lot more fun. As a protoss-player, I agree - the HSM reminds me of the scourge, where you sit at the edge of your seat and go "will it hit, WILL IT???" Stuff like that makes WATCHIN (!) the game epic. Macro-fests are challenging for a player, but usually not that entertaining to watch for a casual audience. not likely unless HSM gets a major buff... for 125 energy and a research tech, you need something MORE useful than a PDD, or something safer to use so that you don't sacrifice your unit for a measly 100 damage.
While I agree, my post was more like a general statement as in that Blizz needs to make units/skills like that more useful. Even though I 100% approve of the immortal-buff as it will help toss against mass-roach and against 111, does a casual audience really want to see...immortals running around? The immortal is a cool unit when you use it properly, but I can only assume that watchin it in action must be the most boring thing for a non-protoss-player.
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