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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 29 2011 08:38 bole wrote:
i noticed something if can somebody answer.... whatche some PvT casting and i noticed Force Fealds over comand centar... (worker cant repare it) (planetary forthres) is that imba ?
problem is worker cant repare it... so nerf would be that you cant FF on buildings or something... or worker can pass to buildings if they need to repare it true FF....
That's a really inane suggestion.
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On August 29 2011 11:14 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 10:28 Moshex wrote:
people say infestor op infestor op but they forget siege tank do the same damage and instantly
and psi storm destory armys in a second while the ht no longer ht and they make insane damage the main reason ppl QQ about infestors is not because of the damage they deal (the damage actually sucks compared to storm and HSM) they QQ because of the rooting effect it has. what ppl dont notice is that forcefields are just as good. place proper force fields and u can trap a army for some sick storms or allow the colos splash dmg to be that much more effective. ghosts are able to take 100 shields off of toss units near instantly. most toss units (gate way units in particular) dont even have 100 shields so thats half there health instantly gone. and concussive shells pretty much prevents any kind of retreate if u stutter step micro/kite. infestors are not as OP as ppl think they are. infestors are the main back bone of the zerg army just like sentries for toss or marines for terran.
You would have to use a considerable amount of forcefields and storm to get the same effect as fungal, so I don't really think it's comparable. The damage is perfectly comparable to storm, especially considering that it's guaranteed to do full damage and you can chain it over and over again.
It's ok imo is because it's one of the extremely small options that zergs have against deathballs and marines. Terrans get a unit that's ridiculous against everything in the game, why can't Zerg? It's the nature of the game that every unit is OP given the correct situation.
I think a lot of the issue is that protosses often can't see the infestors coming (with a spell of range 9). With more observers and scans I think the infestor play can be dealt with much better. Unlike storm, you have to micro before you get fungaled or else it's already too late.
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Hmm I saw the blue flame hellion nerf coming but not very fond of the Ulteralisk buff. Those things are ridiciusouly strong as it is and now they can be reinforced so quickly. I fear 3/5 ultras to reinforce with that build time
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On August 29 2011 11:33 zmansman17 wrote:
Hmm I saw the blue flame hellion nerf coming but not very fond of the Ulteralisk buff. Those things are ridiciusouly strong as it is and now they can be reinforced so quickly. I fear 3/5 ultras to reinforce with that build time
Ultalisks are still weak vs marauder spam and immortals with range buff and tanks with thors. So it's okay
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Having played a few games on the PTR, the changes are really detrimental for zerg. The terran nerfs help a little, but the infestor nerf combined with the immortal buff basically resurrects the protoss deathball. Blizzard needs to reconsider the infestor nerf, and revert the immortal change or PvZ is going to become a big problem.
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On August 29 2011 11:14 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 10:28 Moshex wrote:
people say infestor op infestor op but they forget siege tank do the same damage and instantly
and psi storm destory armys in a second while the ht no longer ht and they make insane damage the main reason ppl QQ about infestors is not because of the damage they deal (the damage actually sucks compared to storm and HSM) they QQ because of the rooting effect it has. what ppl dont notice is that forcefields are just as good. place proper force fields and u can trap a army for some sick storms or allow the colos splash dmg to be that much more effective. ghosts are able to take 100 shields off of toss units near instantly. most toss units (gate way units in particular) dont even have 100 shields so thats half there health instantly gone. and concussive shells pretty much prevents any kind of retreate if u stutter step micro/kite. infestors are not as OP as ppl think they are. infestors are the main back bone of the zerg army just like sentries for toss or marines for terran.
I do not think Infestors are OP however I dislike them as a unit. Any ability that eliminates micro is bad for an esport.
You guys know the boards with the shapes cut out and toddlers take the right shape piece and put it in the corresponding shape cutout, I have no idea what those are called.. Anyways, its like blizzard is trying to force a piece into the wrong shape, and they try so hard they brake the shape. The shape may fit now but its still broken. Thats like what they did with the infestor. I was not a fan of fungal growth before the damage buff and duration cut, but I liked that a hell of a lot more than it is now. Blizzard saw that the Protoss deathballs were annihilating Zergs so they made fungal growth into a killing machine and completely changed how the ability was intended to work. Before fungal was good for stalling pushes, and it complemented their infested terran ability due to infested terrans having almost no movement speed. I really hope they change how the infestor works in HOTS.
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You guys know the boards with the shapes cut out and toddlers take the right shape piece and put it in the corresponding shape cutout, I have no idea what those are called..
pegs... and holes...
people tend to be locked in the paradigm of comparing units and spells and cost of units without any relation. But you have to think about the WHOLE game, what maps are played, how many bases can this race realistically get on such maps safely and at what point in time. That effects the unit balance and cost-of-units balance just as much as their raw stats and cost. If maps were all wide open flatlands, zerglings would be nerfed FAST. But they arent.
i am not a fan of funal growth either and i try not to make inf, but SOOO many of the ladder maps are comprised of choke points and cliffs, and because hydras are so fucking awful, Infestors are the only way zerg can be cost effective on maps with ridiculous chokes. I dont think its right, its a major design flaw. But either make better maps (or use pro circuit maps in ladder pool....) or give zerg another option for dealing with small chokes and cliffs. without infestors, or more mutas then there are marines (which is absurdly un-cost-effective), marines on cliff = unkillable for zerg.
Toss spells revolve around being able to survive in wide open areas against what is usually larger numbered forces and thus better concaves for terran and zerg opponents. But these spells have been nerfed significantly since the release of this game because blizzard refuses to implement maps that arent choke/cliff oriented.
Steppes, Delta, Kulas, Typhon, Searing Crater, the old Lost Temple, Shakuras, Jungle Basin, Scrap Station, hell even Xelnaga caverns and Abyssal Caverns to some extent? Of the maps Blizzard has released, which one is the most popular for Pros and in general for competitive players? Metalopolis.
And while we are on the subject, how many current ladder maps are used in professional competition? Four. Out of Ten. And they had to be modified to do so. You could push it and say 5 and count Backwater Gulch, but i honestly have not seen that map in a Pro tournament since Early NASL and don't know if they still use it. Even then, that is only half. Think about it.
So yea, as it is the Infestor is broken, but so are the maps, and to some extent i feel that makes it even.
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While I think this patch is quite good, there's a problem Blizzard ought to tackle at some point, and is probably the one major design flaw and imbalance with terran: the "true-maxed" terran. See Bomber vs DRG game 1 at Raleigh for a very good example.
In the late game, terrans can sack their SCVs, replacing them with mules from their orbital "farm", thus having a way bigger army and a good economy at the same time. I don't see how this is supposed to be balanced, because for the 2 other races economy comes at the price of army size at that point.
I think they should put a supply cost to the mule, perhaps putting you in the red if you cast it, somewhat like the extractor trick (and so it still lets you cast it anytime), but preventing you from achieving the "true-maxed" terran lategame, which is absurd. At least try it in the PTR?
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On August 29 2011 11:49 pwadoc wrote:
Having played a few games on the PTR, the changes are really detrimental for zerg. The terran nerfs help a little, but the infestor nerf combined with the immortal buff basically resurrects the protoss deathball. Blizzard needs to reconsider the infestor nerf, and revert the immortal change or PvZ is going to become a big problem.
hmm the immortal is only good against roaches, so it is only detrimental if you have a fetish for the "r" button like many zergs have. let's face it the immortal in its current state is a very clunky unit, almost like the reaver, except that it doesn't have the range or splash of the reaver. it's clearly an anti-armour unit, it would be a travesty if it didn't crush roaches.
as for the infestor no one can really believe that it wasn't overpowered. cheap and fast t2 tech, counter requires t3...hello...?
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On August 29 2011 13:56 Xain wrote:
While I think this patch is quite good, there's a problem Blizzard ought to tackle at some point, and is probably the one major design flaw and imbalance with terran: the "true-maxed" terran. See Bomber vs DRG game 1 at Raleigh for a very good example.
In the late game, terrans can sack their SCVs, replacing them with mules from their orbital "farm", thus having a way bigger army and a good economy at the same time. I don't see how this is supposed to be balanced, because for the 2 other races economy comes at the price of army size at that point.
I think they should put a supply cost to the mule, perhaps putting you in the red if you cast it, somewhat like the extractor trick (and so it still lets you cast it anytime), but preventing you from achieving the "true-maxed" terran lategame, which is absurd. At least try it in the PTR?
True max terran is balanced by zerg and protoss' faster reproduction.
zerg and protoss can bank resources and reinforce much faster than a terran.
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On August 29 2011 13:56 Xain wrote:
While I think this patch is quite good, there's a problem Blizzard ought to tackle at some point, and is probably the one major design flaw and imbalance with terran: the "true-maxed" terran. See Bomber vs DRG game 1 at Raleigh for a very good example.
In the late game, terrans can sack their SCVs, replacing them with mules from their orbital "farm", thus having a way bigger army and a good economy at the same time. I don't see how this is supposed to be balanced, because for the 2 other races economy comes at the price of army size at that point.
I think they should put a supply cost to the mule, perhaps putting you in the red if you cast it, somewhat like the extractor trick (and so it still lets you cast it anytime), but preventing you from achieving the "true-maxed" terran lategame, which is absurd. At least try it in the PTR?
Try building a bunch of spines and cancelling them. You can literally have more than 200 food.
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On August 29 2011 08:43 NATO wrote:
Fair point, however since banelings are possibly even more of a problem, the tanks are necessary.
This is just silly. Banelings are easy to avoid because they're not as fast and die when they detonate, so while you lose mining time you don't lose all of them unless you miss them on the minimap or react too slow (both of which are grossly player error). Problem with hellions are, even if you see them coming only a handful of units are cost effective against them. And you need a bunch to kill them fast enough to avoid worker deaths, there's no other type of drop or harass remotely like that.
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On August 29 2011 14:04 NATO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 13:56 Xain wrote:
While I think this patch is quite good, there's a problem Blizzard ought to tackle at some point, and is probably the one major design flaw and imbalance with terran: the "true-maxed" terran. See Bomber vs DRG game 1 at Raleigh for a very good example.
In the late game, terrans can sack their SCVs, replacing them with mules from their orbital "farm", thus having a way bigger army and a good economy at the same time. I don't see how this is supposed to be balanced, because for the 2 other races economy comes at the price of army size at that point.
I think they should put a supply cost to the mule, perhaps putting you in the red if you cast it, somewhat like the extractor trick (and so it still lets you cast it anytime), but preventing you from achieving the "true-maxed" terran lategame, which is absurd. At least try it in the PTR? Try building a bunch of spines and cancelling them. You can literally have more than 200 food.
I would use spores, except you have to be careful to cancel them on time. That brings up another issue. Zergs have a much easier time spamming static defense late game, and can sort of use spines as part of their army. As they don't cost supply, they can achieve a similar effect of having a stronger maxed army.
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On August 29 2011 14:04 NATO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 13:56 Xain wrote:
While I think this patch is quite good, there's a problem Blizzard ought to tackle at some point, and is probably the one major design flaw and imbalance with terran: the "true-maxed" terran. See Bomber vs DRG game 1 at Raleigh for a very good example.
In the late game, terrans can sack their SCVs, replacing them with mules from their orbital "farm", thus having a way bigger army and a good economy at the same time. I don't see how this is supposed to be balanced, because for the 2 other races economy comes at the price of army size at that point.
I think they should put a supply cost to the mule, perhaps putting you in the red if you cast it, somewhat like the extractor trick (and so it still lets you cast it anytime), but preventing you from achieving the "true-maxed" terran lategame, which is absurd. At least try it in the PTR? Try building a bunch of spines and cancelling them. You can literally have more than 200 food.
Ehhhh. You need to be floating 2000 minerals (if you're using spines) plus the cost of whatever units you're about to make in order to get to 220 food. You lose mining time on drones, you lose the cancel penalty for each spine, all for a 15% larger army. Yes that is significantly helpful, but no one in a serious ZvT is ever going to have enough money in the bank to fill that 20 supply with anything other than T1 units. It's one of those things that everybody talks about being able to do but only applies in a few situations that are not likely to arise in a pro-level game.
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This is fantastic, totally can't wait for the new balance changes as well as the sick new UI updates.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 29 2011 11:14 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 10:28 Moshex wrote:
people say infestor op infestor op but they forget siege tank do the same damage and instantly
and psi storm destory armys in a second while the ht no longer ht and they make insane damage the main reason ppl QQ about infestors is not because of the damage they deal (the damage actually sucks compared to storm and HSM) they QQ because of the rooting effect it has. what ppl dont notice is that forcefields are just as good. place proper force fields and u can trap a army for some sick storms or allow the colos splash dmg to be that much more effective. ghosts are able to take 100 shields off of toss units near instantly. most toss units (gate way units in particular) dont even have 100 shields so thats half there health instantly gone. and concussive shells pretty much prevents any kind of retreate if u stutter step micro/kite. infestors are not as OP as ppl think they are. infestors are the main back bone of the zerg army just like sentries for toss or marines for terran.
Are you kidding? Place force fields and you can pin some units in place, but it takes way more energy to do it, doesn't do DPS to those units, doesn't work on air units, and those sentries can't burrow stealth, cast infested terrans to take down entire bases in seconds, or mind control powerful expensive units. They can put up a shield that helps protect from ranged damage but it doesn't help to have more than one active, and they can make fake units that are worthless if your enemy brought detection.
It's not the individual spell that makes infestors too good, it's their ridiculously good spells and versatility (They can do everything!).
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Let's see.
With the Terrans nerfs and buff, I wonder if Hellions aren't going to be traded out now for Ravens and Reapers, especially the latter for mid-game harassment.
Protoss got some much needed buff for Warp Prism, Stalker's Blink nerf really only prevents super early blink rushes. With Chrono Boosts, the research time is really only nerfed by about 15-20 seconds, so it's not that bad.
Zerg just lost Overseer harass. In exchange, Ultralisk/Hydralisk may become a decent composition for some kind of new late-game Zerg push. I'd really love to see that happen, since Hydralisk doesn't have many opportunities to shine for Zerg outside of AA.
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On August 29 2011 11:14 Ballistixz wrote:
the main reason ppl QQ about infestors is not because of the damage they deal (the damage actually sucks compared to storm and HSM) they QQ because of the rooting effect it has.
If this is true then you realise the 'infestor buff' that supposedly made infestors too powerful was actually a nerf right? It halved the duration for 8 to 4 seconds, if the rooting effect is really what people are complaining about then it was 100% worse beforehand. So I really doubt thats it. I'd be fine with Infestors going back to that, 8 second root but no additional damage to armored.
It's not the individual spell that makes infestors too good, it's their ridiculously good spells and versatility (They can do everything!).
They kinda need that versatility though, the rest of the Zerg army isn't exactly brimming with potential. There are some pretty big problems with Hydralisks and Ultralisks, that leaves Roaches, Zerglings and Banelings as really the only viable Zerg ground units 90% of the time. Unfortunately Zerg really, really need the power of the Infestor right now, maybe HotS will rejigger some of their units and make the standard Zerg ground force a bit more versatile, until then Infestors need to stay the way they are.
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On August 29 2011 14:28 nemo14 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 14:04 NATO wrote:On August 29 2011 13:56 Xain wrote:
While I think this patch is quite good, there's a problem Blizzard ought to tackle at some point, and is probably the one major design flaw and imbalance with terran: the "true-maxed" terran. See Bomber vs DRG game 1 at Raleigh for a very good example.
In the late game, terrans can sack their SCVs, replacing them with mules from their orbital "farm", thus having a way bigger army and a good economy at the same time. I don't see how this is supposed to be balanced, because for the 2 other races economy comes at the price of army size at that point.
I think they should put a supply cost to the mule, perhaps putting you in the red if you cast it, somewhat like the extractor trick (and so it still lets you cast it anytime), but preventing you from achieving the "true-maxed" terran lategame, which is absurd. At least try it in the PTR? Try building a bunch of spines and cancelling them. You can literally have more than 200 food. Ehhhh. You need to be floating 2000 minerals (if you're using spines) plus the cost of whatever units you're about to make in order to get to 220 food. You lose mining time on drones, you lose the cancel penalty for each spine, all for a 15% larger army. Yes that is significantly helpful, but no one in a serious ZvT is ever going to have enough money in the bank to fill that 20 supply with anything other than T1 units. It's one of those things that everybody talks about being able to do but only applies in a few situations that are not likely to arise in a pro-level game.
Orbital farms easily cost 2000+ minerals, it should always happen in late game unless the pro's multi-tasking is lacking.
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I've seen a lot of people complaining about the Overseer Contamination "nerf."
Feedback with Dark Templar is actually quite strong because you can kill all of the Overseers. This might just make it easier to get rid of the energy prior to fighting,
Just a thought. This makes it consistent with the cost decrease, or maybe as some suggested a pre-emptive buffering to them being cheaper.
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EPT
