• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:45
CEST 23:45
KST 06:45
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL51Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?12FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event16Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster16Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster
Tourneys
Korean Starcraft League Week 77 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL Unit and Spell Similarities Help: rep cant save
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Trading/Investing Thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 628 users

Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 208

Forum Index > Closed
9040 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 206 207 208 209 210 453 Next
Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne

There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
Esel
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany151 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-28 21:14:00
August 28 2011 21:13 GMT
#4141
Y U NO EU PTR ?!

User was warned for this post
i like sc2 more than wc3 because of its mind games , in wc3 the only mind game you could do is go for a different hero than normal to make your opponent thing you are retarded
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
August 28 2011 21:37 GMT
#4142
On August 29 2011 03:56 BeeNu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2011 03:52 Active.815 wrote:
On August 28 2011 22:52 R0YAL wrote:
On August 28 2011 22:42 SeaSwift wrote:
On August 28 2011 22:32 Plexa wrote:
Easiest way to 'fix' mules is to accept that they aren't broken -.-;


Hmm. I know you're the admin and all, but unless there's a decent discussion to be had rather than just baseless assertions like "x is broken" "no x is fine" I'd recommend not posting at all, because the thread will just devolve further. I was quite happy with a number of lengthy posts on the previous page, and although I'm not a mod/whatever on this website I think it would be a shame for the posts to turn into what they were earlier again.

I feel that if you look at the situation logically, Lurk is absolutely right. MULEs are essentially an extra 3+ workers mining for the whole game per Orbital minus time for Supply cooldown/Scans. If MULEs were replaced by another mechanic which still just helped Terran keep up with P/Z in the economy (like chrono etc) then the problem would still remain with the 1-1-1. If Terran just produced workers faster every so often they would just leave some behind and continue with the attack as normal. The problem is NOT the MULEs, I would say (and yes, I agree with your statement Plexa just not the way you went about it). The problem is the efficiency of the Terran units, particularly the Marine, and the synergy between them all. Protoss has good unit synergy but to compensate for that Protoss units are individually inefficient the vast majority of the time. I think SCVs need slightly less health or Marines need slightly less DPS. I don't understand why Marines became so much more efficient compared to BW in the first place.

You and me both. Zerglings got nerfed hard compared to their bw counterpart. Its much harder in the early game for Zergs in sc2, since Zerglings were so much stronger the Terran had to build up more marines or else he would lose everything for basically nothing. Marines in sc2 don't need to research +1 range, they just have it. Also, units in sc2 squeeze together into a ball so that increases marines dps and reduces the surface area, not to mention stutter-step micro is really good and not hard to pull off. And on top of everything Zerg no longer has creep colonies so they cannot build reactive defenses like they could in bw. Spines take a long time to build, much longer than bunkers.


just preemptively build like 5 or 6 spines?. Not like you can't reproduce drones at superspeed...

also, sc2=/=bw. "oh god something changed from my 10 year old game and i can't play the same way.. nerf please!" is not a good attitude


rofl, "preemptive 5-6 spines" this is funny.

Sure, you go ahead and do that then enjoy all those spines being 100% worthless because your Terran opponent scouted your spines and just sets Siege Tanks up or does a Medivac Drop or sends Banshees in.


Right. You only need 3-4 spines, because you have 4 queens for anti-air. You get the money by waiting until 40 food (spending all your larva on drones except the two scoutlings) to throw down all 4 gases, at which point you lair before speed to have your overseer out in time for cloak.

It's called the IceFisher (or Spanishiwa) build, and it's safe against next to everything with very little variation needed.
NightHawk929
Profile Joined December 2010
79 Posts
August 28 2011 22:39 GMT
#4143
Infestor nerf, hell yeah!

Hellion nerf is very good, and that's coming from a terran player! TvT right now is just who can kill more workers.

Barracks nerf i don't like.
Vapaach
Profile Joined February 2011
Finland994 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-28 22:41:04
August 28 2011 22:40 GMT
#4144
This patch is going to change the metagame quite a bit, can't wait ^^
If you never try you never know. Sase - Mana - TLO - WhiteRa - Naniwa - Sheth - HuK
Yaki
Profile Joined April 2011
France4234 Posts
August 28 2011 22:42 GMT
#4145
Hope Blizzard watched closely MLG this weekend
MC ■ MarineKing ■ LosirA ■ To someone who has lost after trying his best, no words from the winner can console him.
NATO
Profile Joined April 2010
United States459 Posts
August 28 2011 22:43 GMT
#4146
From a Terran player's perspective, I think the hellion nerf is VERY bad. It ruins that matchup. Does anyone know why Blizzard actually did this? Seems like it's not actually that good against the other races. For instance, greedy zerg with no defenses, and terrible control when defending still ends up ahead in workers right after the harass is over - and then since terran has no army to push, they can just drone 10 times right after.
leakingpear
Profile Joined March 2006
United Kingdom302 Posts
August 28 2011 22:51 GMT
#4147
On August 29 2011 07:43 NATO wrote:
From a Terran player's perspective, I think the hellion nerf is VERY bad. It ruins that matchup. Does anyone know why Blizzard actually did this? Seems like it's not actually that good against the other races. For instance, greedy zerg with no defenses, and terrible control when defending still ends up ahead in workers right after the harass is over - and then since terran has no army to push, they can just drone 10 times right after.


Probably because blue flame hellions as is require a perfect defence all game long, usually with considerably higher cost of units or static defence than the amount of hellions sent, where if 1 or 2 hellions get through they can completely eradicate the economy and win the game. I don't think it won't be a hit to terrans but I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to have a unit with the ability to do that much damage at once that's also that cheap, fast and small. If it proves that it makes terran too weak against all in lings or zealots or something I imagine they'll look at buffs in different areas but given previous it's unlikely Blizzard would turn around on something like this (see void rays, infestors).
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
August 28 2011 22:52 GMT
#4148
On August 29 2011 07:43 NATO wrote:
From a Terran player's perspective, I think the hellion nerf is VERY bad. It ruins that matchup. Does anyone know why Blizzard actually did this? Seems like it's not actually that good against the other races. For instance, greedy zerg with no defenses, and terrible control when defending still ends up ahead in workers right after the harass is over - and then since terran has no army to push, they can just drone 10 times right after.

Blue flame hellions destroy mineral lines and zerglings, its very hard to defend unless you have roaches out or somehow catch the hellions off guard.
how so the terran has no army?
you should macro while harrassing ofc, and when zerg get a crapload of drones killed how do you expect them to make an army to defend the next push and droning up?
NATO
Profile Joined April 2010
United States459 Posts
August 28 2011 22:55 GMT
#4149
On August 29 2011 07:51 leakingpear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2011 07:43 NATO wrote:
From a Terran player's perspective, I think the hellion nerf is VERY bad. It ruins that matchup. Does anyone know why Blizzard actually did this? Seems like it's not actually that good against the other races. For instance, greedy zerg with no defenses, and terrible control when defending still ends up ahead in workers right after the harass is over - and then since terran has no army to push, they can just drone 10 times right after.


Probably because blue flame hellions as is require a perfect defence all game long, usually with considerably higher cost of units or static defence than the amount of hellions sent, where if 1 or 2 hellions get through they can completely eradicate the economy and win the game. I don't think it won't be a hit to terrans but I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to have a unit with the ability to do that much damage at once that's also that cheap, fast and small. If it proves that it makes terran too weak against all in lings or zealots or something I imagine they'll look at buffs in different areas but given previous it's unlikely Blizzard would turn around on something like this (see void rays, infestors).


4 hellions cost 400 minerals.
One spine or canon costs 150.

Compare this to the defense a terran needs against a zerg to just stay alive from lings, and it seems pretty cheap. Lings are faster, and kill workers faster, but Blizzard isn't nerfing them. (They're also very cheap!) Also hellions have to be microed precisely to be effective, whereas you basically 1a the lings to kill worker lines.
Elefanto
Profile Joined May 2010
Switzerland3584 Posts
August 28 2011 22:58 GMT
#4150
On August 29 2011 07:55 NATO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2011 07:51 leakingpear wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:43 NATO wrote:
From a Terran player's perspective, I think the hellion nerf is VERY bad. It ruins that matchup. Does anyone know why Blizzard actually did this? Seems like it's not actually that good against the other races. For instance, greedy zerg with no defenses, and terrible control when defending still ends up ahead in workers right after the harass is over - and then since terran has no army to push, they can just drone 10 times right after.


Probably because blue flame hellions as is require a perfect defence all game long, usually with considerably higher cost of units or static defence than the amount of hellions sent, where if 1 or 2 hellions get through they can completely eradicate the economy and win the game. I don't think it won't be a hit to terrans but I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to have a unit with the ability to do that much damage at once that's also that cheap, fast and small. If it proves that it makes terran too weak against all in lings or zealots or something I imagine they'll look at buffs in different areas but given previous it's unlikely Blizzard would turn around on something like this (see void rays, infestors).


4 hellions cost 400 minerals.
One spine or canon costs 150.

Compare this to the defense a terran needs against a zerg to just stay alive from lings, and it seems pretty cheap.


You mean build one salvageable bunker?
Yeah, seems pretty expensive for a terran.
wat
Disastorm
Profile Joined January 2008
United States922 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-28 22:59:10
August 28 2011 22:58 GMT
#4151
On August 29 2011 02:27 envisioN . wrote:
Show nested quote +

Tanks smash banelings, marines smash zerglings, and you have ghosts to combat infestors. Roaches are pitiful against terran, and hydras aren't at the point where they can be useful yet. That leaves zerg with broodlords, which are good when they first come on the field but a good terran will have plenty of vikings. And if all your vikings get fungal'd and die that's your own fault.



But banelings smash marines, zerglings and mutas smash tanks, and infestors smash everything BUT ghosts. So really it all comes down to how you engage and how you micro your units so you get the highest cost efficiency possible.


While that is kind of true, the Tanks have longer range than banelings, zerglings, and infestors, and marines have longer range than mutas, so Zerg doesn't really have any direct counters to them (until tier 3 where they get Brood Lords which can finally take down tanks), they just have to get a bunch of shit to defeat a Terran army.
"Don't worry so much man. There won't be any more zergs left to QQ. Lots of QQ about TvT is incoming though I bet." - Vrok 9/21/10
TheTurk
Profile Joined January 2011
United States732 Posts
August 28 2011 22:58 GMT
#4152
Why the hell would you increase contaminate energy cost??
Ultra buff is AWESOME.
Infestor buff is ok.
Lovin the Terran nerfs.
I like the Immortal buff. My roaches cry when they see them anyway, and this isn't reassuring them any. But I like that they might be used most centrally in PvP and PvT, as well as PvZ I suppose.
Vision up ramps will help a LOT with ridiculous early pressure.
Very hopefully we will see more Mothership, Warp Prism, and Seeker Missle use in the proscene at least.
Starcraft is a lifestyle.
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
August 28 2011 22:58 GMT
#4153
On August 29 2011 07:55 NATO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2011 07:51 leakingpear wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:43 NATO wrote:
From a Terran player's perspective, I think the hellion nerf is VERY bad. It ruins that matchup. Does anyone know why Blizzard actually did this? Seems like it's not actually that good against the other races. For instance, greedy zerg with no defenses, and terrible control when defending still ends up ahead in workers right after the harass is over - and then since terran has no army to push, they can just drone 10 times right after.


Probably because blue flame hellions as is require a perfect defence all game long, usually with considerably higher cost of units or static defence than the amount of hellions sent, where if 1 or 2 hellions get through they can completely eradicate the economy and win the game. I don't think it won't be a hit to terrans but I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to have a unit with the ability to do that much damage at once that's also that cheap, fast and small. If it proves that it makes terran too weak against all in lings or zealots or something I imagine they'll look at buffs in different areas but given previous it's unlikely Blizzard would turn around on something like this (see void rays, infestors).


4 hellions cost 400 minerals.
One spine or canon costs 150.

Compare this to the defense a terran needs against a zerg to just stay alive from lings, and it seems pretty cheap. Lings are faster, and kill workers faster, but Blizzard isn't nerfing them. (They're also very cheap!) Also hellions have to be microed precisely to be effective, whereas you basically 1a the lings to kill worker lines.


Good luck defending 4 blue flame hellions with 1 cannon or spine crawler you will lose every worker.
dbddbddb
Profile Joined April 2010
Singapore969 Posts
August 28 2011 22:59 GMT
#4154
hellion... 100 minerals no gas

LINE SPLASH DAMAGE. 100% damage range.

if you clump up your workers while running away, its over
no other unit in the game has such harass potential to kill workers so easily.

there is no reason why this isnt getting nerfed.
Coopa826
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany161 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-28 23:17:01
August 28 2011 23:11 GMT
#4155
i mean you have to build 15 blueflame hellions and you can run through all the defenses no matter how many roaches no matter how many spines or cannons there are ... his workers just vaporate

pls dont nerf them =/
Shebuha
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1335 Posts
August 28 2011 23:20 GMT
#4156
WOW this patch is awesome. I really do agree with every change, especially the drone attack dodge one. Thanks Blizzard, ya dun gewd!
Bonham
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada655 Posts
August 28 2011 23:23 GMT
#4157
On August 29 2011 07:55 NATO wrote:
4 hellions cost 400 minerals.
One spine or canon costs 150.

Compare this to the defense a terran needs against a zerg to just stay alive from lings, and it seems pretty cheap. Lings are faster, and kill workers faster, but Blizzard isn't nerfing them. (They're also very cheap!) Also hellions have to be microed precisely to be effective, whereas you basically 1a the lings to kill worker lines.


Um, what? Have you seen someone try to run workers from a pack of hellions? If you clump them, the blueflame splash damage can destroy virtually any number of workers in two shots. The two most recent MLGs are chock full of terrans doing this.
NATO
Profile Joined April 2010
United States459 Posts
August 28 2011 23:25 GMT
#4158
Actually forget zerglings, banelings are way worse! Did you see Bomber vs Coca? It's not even isolated to that game though. DRG also did this in many games.
NATO
Profile Joined April 2010
United States459 Posts
August 28 2011 23:26 GMT
#4159
Most recent mlg is chock full of banelings kill 51 workers actually.
NATO
Profile Joined April 2010
United States459 Posts
August 28 2011 23:28 GMT
#4160
On August 29 2011 07:58 Elefanto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2011 07:55 NATO wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:51 leakingpear wrote:
On August 29 2011 07:43 NATO wrote:
From a Terran player's perspective, I think the hellion nerf is VERY bad. It ruins that matchup. Does anyone know why Blizzard actually did this? Seems like it's not actually that good against the other races. For instance, greedy zerg with no defenses, and terrible control when defending still ends up ahead in workers right after the harass is over - and then since terran has no army to push, they can just drone 10 times right after.


Probably because blue flame hellions as is require a perfect defence all game long, usually with considerably higher cost of units or static defence than the amount of hellions sent, where if 1 or 2 hellions get through they can completely eradicate the economy and win the game. I don't think it won't be a hit to terrans but I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to have a unit with the ability to do that much damage at once that's also that cheap, fast and small. If it proves that it makes terran too weak against all in lings or zealots or something I imagine they'll look at buffs in different areas but given previous it's unlikely Blizzard would turn around on something like this (see void rays, infestors).


4 hellions cost 400 minerals.
One spine or canon costs 150.

Compare this to the defense a terran needs against a zerg to just stay alive from lings, and it seems pretty cheap.


You mean build one salvageable bunker?
Yeah, seems pretty expensive for a terran.


I mean at least 3 turrets for mutas, PF, and at least two tanks. The rest can be filled with buildings you need anyway.
Prev 1 206 207 208 209 210 453 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 15m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 203
JuggernautJason122
ProTech84
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 2558
Dewaltoss 120
ZZZero.O 96
NaDa 20
Shine 15
MaD[AoV]5
Dota 2
capcasts132
NeuroSwarm42
League of Legends
JimRising 629
Counter-Strike
flusha789
Foxcn293
taco 183
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu552
Other Games
summit1g6376
Grubby3653
tarik_tv2971
FrodaN1790
fl0m695
ZombieGrub218
Pyrionflax167
ViBE129
Sick54
PPMD34
mouzStarbuck2
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV45
StarCraft 2
angryscii 23
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• RyuSc2 53
• davetesta43
• LUISG 15
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21430
League of Legends
• Doublelift6174
• Jankos3770
Other Games
• Scarra1139
• imaqtpie851
• Shiphtur310
Upcoming Events
Korean StarCraft League
5h 15m
CranKy Ducklings
12h 15m
RSL Revival
12h 15m
ByuN vs Cham
herO vs Reynor
FEL
18h 15m
RSL Revival
1d 12h
Clem vs Classic
SHIN vs Cure
FEL
1d 14h
BSL: ProLeague
1d 20h
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-28
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.