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On August 11 2011 17:34 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:29 storm44 wrote:On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote:
Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least. When it is your job to be a progamer I'm sure you would see this differently. I agree that there should be time for the game to balance out but it seems hypocritical when zerg players cried for months and got their units buffed and protoss got nerfed constantly; it doesn't seem fair now that people should say protoss should suffer. It's not about suffering, its about figuring it out. All this protoss whine just reminds me of the zerg whine when they couldn't beat deathballs and said there was no solution and kept a-moving roach hydra into cols. Contrary to popular (zerg?) belief, zergs started winning a lot more, and the win rate was increasing steadily since january, when they learned to play better, the infestor buff didn't matter much at all vs deathballs as people think, of course win rates for zerg kept growing after infestor buff for a while too, however that wasn't. Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:33 quiet noise wrote:On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote:
Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least. i dont think i have ever seen a single post from you that didnt make me facepalm. Seriously, the fact that you just judge this situation as "some balance whine" instead of actually looking into it, analazing the situation and decide wheter you think it might actually be op or not makes wonder if you completley lack the ability of critical thinking. instead you seem to be stuck with some kind of delusion that any game made by blizzard is always perfectly balanced and mustnt be questioned, no matter what people think and what statistics and results show. I can tell you, blizzards balance team has screwed up severely before. Look at Arena PvP in wow for proof of that. it was pretty much the laughing stock of ESPORTS Race win rate shifts are extremely common. If it goes on for too long an there actually isnt anything that can be done about it, blizzard will fix it.
It's alot more similar to 5 rax reaper, which zerg simply could not respond sufficiently to, and it was quickly, (and rightfully) nerfed.
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Australia210 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:39 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:26 quiet noise wrote:On August 11 2011 17:23 Demonaz wrote:
Protoss are basically where Zerg were two months ago when everyone was complaining that z are too weak and underpowered. Seems that most of the 'abusive' p strats have been figured out and along with the 4-gate nerf its made it harder for the moment. However I'm sure something will be figured out soon, c'mon protoss players, get to work! Zerg didnt just "figure things out though". the recieved massive buffs to infestor and spore crawlers. seriously, drop the idea that some genious is gonna come up with this magic new protoss playstyle that noone has ever thought about before. its not going to happen. there are plenty of smart protoss players who practice 8-10hours a day in a pro teamhouse, everyday. If there was something that could be done, they would have figured it out by now. the game isnt just 2 months old anymore. In what games have the spore crawler change been a big factor? And your last sentance doesn't make sense since the protoss haven't struggled all the way since the game came out.
Every game where a stargate is used. It's subtle, but it helps immensely.
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the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
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I find protoss early game atm to be somewhat weak, and a part of it has to do with sentries. The lifeline of a toss relies on force fields: good FFs allows the toss to live, and a misplaced/ineffective FF placement will cause the toss to crumble to a lot of early timing/all-ins.
@ the 1-1-1 build. Remember: its not just a build, rather a unit composition. 1-1-1 essentially opens a significant portion of the tech tree. You cant just blind counter marine tank banshee.
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On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote:
the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
Except this doesn't actually make you survive the attack.
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Australia210 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote:
the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
Staying on one base doesn’t work either, sorry. You can literally stay in your base pumping out nonstop units and still get rolled because the unit comp is so powerful.
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On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote:
the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
A lot of builds have been tried against the 1-1-1, none of them are really all that effective in practice as they are in theory.
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On August 11 2011 17:42 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote:
the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to. Except this doesn't actually make you survive the attack.
fast collosus, or charge helps you survive the attack, but you need a robo before you can make a robo bay, so it does help you survive the attack. this is a lot safer than getting a 1 gate expo
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I feel like the elephant in the room that many people are ignoring is that the 1-1-1 all-in:
1. Has been around for a long, long time. See Genius vs. Rain, GSL Season 3 Open. This first point kind of invalidates the "Wait for players to figure it out, give it some time" argument.
2. Has a 100% winrate against every Protoss since last GSL's Up/Down matches. One hunded. Percent. Can someone name an all-in that has worked 100% of the time for this long a period?
Furthermore, I'd like to quote Beyonder (my favorite mod on TL, he's so friendly :D) on this, and I hope he doesn't mind, but I feel like he's very credible and says this very well:
Races could always do something, learn, adapt. But this one I feel is truly impossible to counter in a healthy way. Havent felt this way about any build up to this point. Im not saying the races are imbalanced, but this build is destroying a matchup in a game that Ive cared about and watched for 13 years. It has not been stopped and that is when people even know its coming (which is kind if hard, as you cannot scout). And I believe I have great insight in the mechanics of the game; believe in my opinion.
IIRC he plays both Toss and Zerg at high master's level.
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People who think Protoss need to innovate need to play protoss. Seriously, try it and you'll realize how easy it is to die if you dont follow specific builds perfectly. Try and do something fancy with toss and you'll quickly figure out that 99% of the time a simple attack by your opponent will kill you with ease. Its the most ridgid race of the 3. Theyre are few if any options left. Our harass boils down to dts and pheonix which can be renderd useless by a spore crawler, and i'm not sure who here can say with a strait face that motherships and carriers are the answer. There is definatly room for improvement in the overall unit composition of our armies. I wish pheonix were used more in pvt 
In the end no amount of creativity will make up for the god-awful dps of the stalker, and no amount of micro will change the fact that our early game defenses are a joke. FF all you want the tanks from 1-1-1 are still gonna shoot you.. The only attempt by blizzard to help Protoss early game is a few seconds off of the sentry build time, so its kinda obvious how seriously they take the problems with toss units. In the mean time lets cross our fingers
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On August 11 2011 17:44 OnFiRe888 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:42 Jinivus wrote:On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote:
the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to. Except this doesn't actually make you survive the attack. fast collosus, or charge helps you survive the attack, but you need a robo before you can make a robo bay, so it does help you survive the attack. this is a lot safer than getting a 1 gate expo
Didn't Naniwa do this against Thorzain in the TSL3 Finals? If I remember correctly he still got smashed because all Thorzain had to do was contain. Even with Naniwa's incredible play to break the contain he was so far behind and just lost.
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What I find funny is that people seem to think that all professional protoss players are not putting effort into trying to find a way to beat the 1-1-1. That idea is just moronic. Mainly because if there's something that beats a pro, he will instantly try figure out how to beat it. I mean that's what makes them professionals. But mainly because as soon as a protoss can figure out how to beat this all in build, they will be basically wracking up free wins until terran stops doing it.
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Feel like this thread is a touch redundant. I think a better question to ask: Is the GSL still viable. With such a strong terran lock on the tournament will it remain watchable for the remainder of the year? We're not even at least seeing zergs eat into the numbers.
edit: can't help myself
On August 11 2011 17:45 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:38 quiet noise wrote:On August 11 2011 17:34 zeru wrote:On August 11 2011 17:29 storm44 wrote:On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote:
Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least. When it is your job to be a progamer I'm sure you would see this differently. I agree that there should be time for the game to balance out but it seems hypocritical when zerg players cried for months and got their units buffed and protoss got nerfed constantly; it doesn't seem fair now that people should say protoss should suffer. It's not about suffering, its about figuring it out. All this protoss whine just reminds me of the zerg whine when they couldn't beat deathballs and said there was no solution and kept a-moving roach hydra into cols. Contrary to popular (zerg?) belief, zergs started winning a lot more, and the win rate was increasing steadily since january, when they learned to play better, the infestor buff didn't matter much at all vs deathballs as people think, of course win rates for zerg kept growing after infestor buff for a while too, however that wasn't. Contrary to your belief, Starcraft 2 isnt supposed to be some kind of rocket science where it takes a team of scientists and scholars several months to figure out how to beat a simple Terran 1/1/1 build. Seriously, this game isnt that complicated (theoreticly) and if you actually allowed yourself to use your brain for a moment you could easily figure out why 1/1/1 is overpowered. But im not gonna bother trying to explain things to you why, cause you are just gonna ignore every single sensible argument and reply with the usual "It just hasnt been figured out kk" No need to be so passive aggressive. We will see what happens in some months, 15 days of terran destroying protoss is hardly actually having ground to stand on.
8 months?
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Italy12246 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:46 StaplerPhone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:44 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 11 2011 17:42 Jinivus wrote:On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote:
the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to. Except this doesn't actually make you survive the attack. fast collosus, or charge helps you survive the attack, but you need a robo before you can make a robo bay, so it does help you survive the attack. this is a lot safer than getting a 1 gate expo Didn't Naniwa do this against Thorzain in the TSL3 Finals? If I remember correctly he still got smashed because all Thorzain had to do was contain. Even with Naniwa's incredible play to break the contain he was so far behind and just lost.
Yep, game one; it was cross spots on meta. Thorzain denied naniwa's expo, expanded himself and backed out; naniwa was forced to run into a tank line with 2 colossi and a few gateway units as his main was almost mined out and got destroyed.
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On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote:
the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
how does 2 gate robo help hold off this build better? its not really the problem of scouting it. you'll have even less units because when the attack hits at 9.30~10.00'ish, a typical 1 gate FE will have more than paid for its nexus and more. even with a blind counter against this build, chances of you winning depend on mainly 2 things: you playing out everything perfectly, and your opponent making some sort of mistake (not QQ'ing, but thats the truth at the current moment).
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On August 11 2011 17:39 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:26 quiet noise wrote:On August 11 2011 17:23 Demonaz wrote:
Protoss are basically where Zerg were two months ago when everyone was complaining that z are too weak and underpowered. Seems that most of the 'abusive' p strats have been figured out and along with the 4-gate nerf its made it harder for the moment. However I'm sure something will be figured out soon, c'mon protoss players, get to work! Zerg didnt just "figure things out though". the recieved massive buffs to infestor and spore crawlers. seriously, drop the idea that some genious is gonna come up with this magic new protoss playstyle that noone has ever thought about before. its not going to happen. there are plenty of smart protoss players who practice 8-10hours a day in a pro teamhouse, everyday. If there was something that could be done, they would have figured it out by now. the game isnt just 2 months old anymore. In what games have the spore crawler change been a big factor? And your last sentance doesn't make sense since the protoss haven't struggled all the way since the game came out.
1. if you look at the statistics, protoss have struggled through many different periods since the game came out, and are the least succesful race in starcraft 2.
2. The spore crawler change basicly killed stargate openers, wich was an important part of PvZ
3. Look, people who have played this game on a professional level since the beta mostly have a pretty good idea of how the game works, what each race is capable of and what they are not. players know the strenghts and limits of their race. its not like there is a fundamentally important strategy or playstyle that solves all the races problem but that protoss players simply has not explored yet. its crazy to believe such a thing. 1/1/1 has been around for a year, if there was a simple counter or solution, it would have been figured out by now.
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On August 11 2011 14:41 spawnzero wrote:
All in all, what do you guys think of these stats on protoss? Purely coincidence? Or has the race noticeably fallen behind? Sage, Killer, Squirtle, Hongun and Huk are in top 15 by ELO in GSTL Season 1 at the moment - the event run about the same time. I think judging by results from very short periods of time can be deceiving. To conclude that a race is falling behind would require a few months of declining results all around, and not just one bad streak for a group of the best players. MC is still number 1 in the world by earnings; he added some new ones in the previous month. Seems too early to draw conclusions.
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Australia210 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:45 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:38 quiet noise wrote:On August 11 2011 17:34 zeru wrote:On August 11 2011 17:29 storm44 wrote:On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote:
Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least. When it is your job to be a progamer I'm sure you would see this differently. I agree that there should be time for the game to balance out but it seems hypocritical when zerg players cried for months and got their units buffed and protoss got nerfed constantly; it doesn't seem fair now that people should say protoss should suffer. It's not about suffering, its about figuring it out. All this protoss whine just reminds me of the zerg whine when they couldn't beat deathballs and said there was no solution and kept a-moving roach hydra into cols. Contrary to popular (zerg?) belief, zergs started winning a lot more, and the win rate was increasing steadily since january, when they learned to play better, the infestor buff didn't matter much at all vs deathballs as people think, of course win rates for zerg kept growing after infestor buff for a while too, however that wasn't. Contrary to your belief, Starcraft 2 isnt supposed to be some kind of rocket science where it takes a team of scientists and scholars several months to figure out how to beat a simple Terran 1/1/1 build. Seriously, this game isnt that complicated (theoreticly) and if you actually allowed yourself to use your brain for a moment you could easily figure out why 1/1/1 is overpowered. But im not gonna bother trying to explain things to you why, cause you are just gonna ignore every single sensible argument and reply with the usual "It just hasnt been figured out kk" No need to be so passive aggressive. We will see what happens in some months, 15 days of terran destroying protoss is hardly actually having ground to stand on.
It's been around since the beta mate, the only reason it's becoming more popular now is because you can actually hold a 4 gate with it since the patch. A blind allin is literally the best chance you have vs this build and I don't think many toss wanna go down that route.
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On August 11 2011 17:46 StaplerPhone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:44 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 11 2011 17:42 Jinivus wrote:On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote:
the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to. Except this doesn't actually make you survive the attack. fast collosus, or charge helps you survive the attack, but you need a robo before you can make a robo bay, so it does help you survive the attack. this is a lot safer than getting a 1 gate expo Didn't Naniwa do this against Thorzain in the TSL3 Finals? If I remember correctly he still got smashed because all Thorzain had to do was contain. Even with Naniwa's incredible play to break the contain he was so far behind and just lost.
in my opinion, nani should've never let those bunkers get up, you have to be PREPARED when facing this build when the terran even moves out you should have at least 1 collosus and 2nd halfway done. naniwa's downfall that game was letting the bunkers get up, that push is 100% tougher to hold with bunkers, you HAVE to attack before the bunkers or else you do the alicia move and counter, which almost never works =(
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EPT
