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Note: I don't want this to turn into a balance/imbalance thread, just discussion purely on top tier play(ers) right now. Also, if there is already a thread like this feel free to close this one.
So I've been watching as many matches I can over the past few days of GSL, specifically those of my race, protoss, and I can't help but begin to wonder a few things after watching the games and looking at results across the board. (Yes I realize we're only 1 round into the season and I know it's early)
There are a few statistics I find somewhat alarming as far as trends between races go. The first of which probably stands out to many of you already which is that already, MC and Alicia, widely considered two of the top 3 protoss in the world, are into U/D matches. Out of the six remaining toss (Huk, Killer, Trickster, HongUn, Genius, and Puzzle) I see maybe three or four of them making it out if we're lucky, and the odds of all five or six being slim to none due to Huk and Killer sharing a group with Bomber. Assuming two of them make it out that still leaves a fairly disproportionate number of protoss in the round of 16.
Now moving on to Code A... This scene could even be considered more grim than the one in Code S currently with only two protoss making it out of the round of 32, one of which was mandatory because they played another protoss (JYP/anypro). After tonight, I could very well see Tassadar being the only one left alive as JYP plays DRG soon. It's also again worth noting again that like the two mentioned earlier in Code S, many of these protoss players are not even unknowns by any means with former Code S players like Inca, vanvanth, and anypro. Not to mention well respected foreigners in Naniwa and Sase.
All in all, what do you guys think of these stats on protoss? Purely coincidence? Or has the race noticeably fallen behind?
Keep your comments legitimate.
TLDR; Protoss is struggling in GSL this season.
+ Show Spoiler +Update: JYP is the toss savior of Code A beating DRG!! xD Although like posted further down in this thread, both his wins were due largely because of massive risks taken by DRG (6pool game 2 and gold base game 3)
Update #2: Tassadar down to Yoda.. Only JYP remains in Code A
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Fail on my part, meant to post in SC2 general, mod move if possible.. Thx in advance
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I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units.
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I have noticed this too. I hope it doesnt turn into the Toss drought of brood war, but I seriously don't know what they can do. Terrans are absolutely crushing it now, Zergs have understood how to play so well now, and i think with the nerfed warp gate it has really screwed protoss. I mean, the increased build time let 4 gate come out later which is pretty impactful, but 20 seconds caused builds to be remade and protosses have been struggling to get into their rhythym since that> i have no idea what is up but i hope they get better soon
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On August 11 2011 14:48 MeLo wrote:
I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units.
I agree with the PvZ/PvT part to an extent, still a fair amount of losses to Z though as well in Code A at least. Unfortunately GSL is pretty Terran dominated right now at A/S levels in each round.
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Very interesting. Have not noticed this yet... I didn't kow MC didn't make it either. That is really sad and surprising.
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Play Protoss.
Only win vs other Protoss, half the time.
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+ Show Spoiler +I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units.
KA is not the reason for protoss lossing
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It seems like all of these abuses of the Protoss early game are just making for extremely one sided PvT in the GSL.
If HuK doesn't make it out I probably won't want to watch the GSL, as is its already going to be massively stacked with TvTs. :-/
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I think toss is suffering a huge metagame shift.
First: Early game aggression is almost non-existence. warpgate nerf pretty much took out all 4 gating. Terran feels safe now and can expand freely while having the choice to punish toss for expanding(1/1/1)
.Against zerg, 4 gate is very easy to stop. Zerg also recognize by making evo, you pretty much stop the other 2 possible opening by toss.
(dt/stargate)
Second: Toss's core mid/late game is getting countered easier. Colossus got easier to deal with(really in top level korean games people rarely go colossus anymore, maybe as a tech switch after gateway). Terran knows how to deal with mid game toss's mass zealot+archon+temps(by adding ghosts). Zerg's infestor/baneling play is also hard to deal with these days(Tyler even said that baneling in ovie might be OP and when have you heard chilltoss complain about balance?)
Hopefully we see some innovations from top toss players not its not looking pretty right now.
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On August 11 2011 15:19 xbankx wrote:
I think toss is suffering a huge metagame shift.
First: Early game aggression is almost non-existence. warpgate nerf pretty much took out all 4 gating. Terran feels safe now and can expand freely while having the choice to punish toss for expanding(1/1/1)
.Against zerg, 4 gate is very easy to stop. Zerg also recognize by making evo, you pretty much stop the other 2 possible opening by toss.
(dt/stargate)
Second: Toss's core mid/late game is getting countered easier. Colossus got easier to deal with(really in top level korean games people rarely go colossus anymore, maybe as a tech switch after gateway). Terran knows how to deal with mid game toss's mass zealot+archon+temps(by adding ghosts). Zerg's infestor/baneling play is also hard to deal with these days(Tyler even said that baneling in ovie might be OP and when have you heard chilltoss complain about balance?)
Hopefully we see some innovations from top toss players not its not looking pretty right now.
I feel like therein lies the problem though, it's really hard to innovate as toss because I feel like the race is pretty rigid. You obviously HAVE to go HT or Cols late game, and our harass capabilities are pretty hard to execute without sacrificing something huge. This obviously compared to zerg and terran that can do fairly cheap drops with units that remain useful even after the drop has failed/succeeded versus units like DTs or Warp Prism that become virtually useless after their drop/harass. (Other than warping archons assuming DTs dont die obviously...)
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Like other said, PVT is really in Terran's favor (not talking about balance but results).
I think the culprit is the Ghost and 1-1-1!! :D
It's really hard to expand early because of 1-1-1, can't really do nothing about it. You either die to it or get contain for a cost of several units while Terran already have natural up.
I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression. Like Justin B. said, Protoss lacks a harass unit which might be (hopefully) release in HOTS.
Protoss might be the easiest race but easiest to counter. I just hope it won't be like BW with only a few Protoss jewels around
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On August 11 2011 15:40 DarkRise wrote:
I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression.
I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe).
But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies.
Maybe?
Or they can all just cannon rush.
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On August 11 2011 15:19 xbankx wrote:
I think toss is suffering a huge metagame shift.
First: Early game aggression is almost non-existence. warpgate nerf pretty much took out all 4 gating. Terran feels safe now and can expand freely while having the choice to punish toss for expanding(1/1/1)
.Against zerg, 4 gate is very easy to stop. Zerg also recognize by making evo, you pretty much stop the other 2 possible opening by toss.
(dt/stargate)
Second: Toss's core mid/late game is getting countered easier. Colossus got easier to deal with(really in top level korean games people rarely go colossus anymore, maybe as a tech switch after gateway). Terran knows how to deal with mid game toss's mass zealot+archon+temps(by adding ghosts). Zerg's infestor/baneling play is also hard to deal with these days(Tyler even said that baneling in ovie might be OP and when have you heard chilltoss complain about balance?)
Hopefully we see some innovations from top toss players not its not looking pretty right now.
I think that Tyler was complaining about baneling drops because you can't tell whether an overlord is loaded or not by looking at it. If I take all of my overlords and move-command them at a protoss army during my attack, my opponent MUST split and focus down the overlords until he figures out whether I'm bluffing or not. Also, all I need to do is attempt a single drop on your mineral line and then I can make you shit your pants once a minute for the rest of the game by sacrificing an unloaded overlord whenever you move your units away. Protoss players, at least in theory, have no way to tell whether they're about to experience sudden acidic death or spectate a harmless hot-air balloon race, and this could be quite hard to deal with once zerg players start abusing it more often.
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+ Show Spoiler +JYP JYP JYP!! I called it ^_^: On August 11 2011 14:54 oskarla wrote:
JYP can do it! FIGHTING!
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Hide the spoiler at the end please.
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I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play.
I personally dont think that Protoss players are changing up their game so they are being figured out. EGIncontrol actually stated this in a recent SOTG. When he said that his strategies were already solved. I think that when Protoss players start experimenting more we will see more victories for Aiur.
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I feel Protoss players are winning not only because of flawless play, but because of risky strategies/great mistakes by their opponent + Show Spoiler +For example, JYP just won the ace match because of DRG's fast gold strategy in metalopolis :/
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EPT
