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On August 11 2011 16:42 Teoita wrote:
Warpgate and sentries screws over the race incredibly; it's such a bad design in terms of balance that i can't believe it made it past alpha. Because of wg/ff, zealots and stalkers NEED to be weaker than their terran and zerg counterpart; in turn, this means that
1) the race is really really weak to early aggression when no tech units are out,
2) it's hard to harass since a much smaller number of enemy units can take out easily our own small group of gw units,
3) we rely incredibly on high tech units like ht's or colossi, which in turn means that if you don't do enough damage with your first army of sentries+colossi/templars with storm ready you just die.
I think it can only be sorted out with a massive design change, so at least an expansion, and in the meantime we will have to stick to our 1-2 base timings and 200/200 deathballs and hope somehow they still work (which they really don't anymore in really high level play).
This, really. For the race to genuinely be competitive, there need to be massive design changes that we likely won't see until HotS, if not LotV. For the time being, we'll continue being victims of the 1-1-1, just like we have since mid-beta. =/
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At the moment it really looks like Protoss players have big problem and Terrans are dominating - with an exception of Nestea 
Although I strongly believe that it will change soon. Protosses are playing in a same way for a long time and as a result Korean Terran players found something I would call "standard way of winning with P". I have this feeling that Protoss players stopped evolving. They need to find new solutions.
I am Terran, and I love to see Terrans winning in GSL, but damn... too many TvTs. It is so boring.
But except for Korean scene, Terrans are not dominating. Look at EU Bnet Invitational, Assemby Summer. It really looks like Korean Terrans are experts in crushing Protosses. Which come from the fact that they wanted to be better than "arguably the best player in the world" oGsMc. So they are.Plenty of them
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+ Show Spoiler +well from what i saw MC played below his usual level
anypro lost pvp
JYP has good ideas but he needs to practice them more and watch the minimap
I dont like Alicia and Tassadar they are cheesing too much for my taste so im glad they are out
Sase and Nani will practice for 1 month and rape everyone in KOrea and show them how its done
inca vanvanth tails treme are just not good enough to compete with the top players in Korea atm
I dont believe in genius trickster and hongun they are playing in code S forever and never achieved won anything so im not counting on them to do something
soo maybe
Killer
Huk
Puzzle
some of these 3 may be able to win some games
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I wish people would stop using random stats taken out of thin air to suggest that a race is bad. There are many more factors that need to be accounted. Imagine all the terrans suddenly came down with smallpox or something and were all out of the tournament. Then I could make a thread saying that Terran isnt doing well.... stats are fucking meaningless....
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Russian Federation304 Posts
On August 11 2011 15:19 xbankx wrote:
I think toss is suffering a huge metagame shift.
First: Early game aggression is almost non-existence. warpgate nerf pretty much took out all 4 gating. Terran feels safe now and can expand freely while having the choice to punish toss for expanding(1/1/1)
.Against zerg, 4 gate is very easy to stop. Zerg also recognize by making evo, you pretty much stop the other 2 possible opening by toss.
(dt/stargate)
Second: Toss's core mid/late game is getting countered easier. Colossus got easier to deal with(really in top level korean games people rarely go colossus anymore, maybe as a tech switch after gateway). Terran knows how to deal with mid game toss's mass zealot+archon+temps(by adding ghosts). Zerg's infestor/baneling play is also hard to deal with these days(Tyler even said that baneling in ovie might be OP and when have you heard chilltoss complain about balance?)
Hopefully we see some innovations from top toss players not its not looking pretty right now.
agree at all
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On August 11 2011 16:53 Gfox wrote:
I wish people would stop using random stats taken out of thin air to suggest that a race is bad. There are many more factors that need to be accounted. Imagine all the terrans suddenly came down with smallpox or something and were all out of the tournament. Then I could make a thread saying that Terran isnt doing well.... stats are fucking meaningless....
If you read the post you would notice I neither state the race is bad, nor that the stats I posted are the end-all argument. I just use them to pose a question to the forum. Also suggesting that stats are meaningless is kind of a poor argument. While I agree they can be manipulated to someones advantage, the fact is they do (usually) have some significance.
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On August 11 2011 16:53 Gfox wrote:
I wish people would stop using random stats taken out of thin air to suggest that a race is bad. There are many more factors that need to be accounted. Imagine all the terrans suddenly came down with smallpox or something and were all out of the tournament. Then I could make a thread saying that Terran isnt doing well.... stats are fucking meaningless....
Your example is ridiculous. Stats are good because they are grounded in reality. All Terrans coming down with smallpox at the same time is completely unrealistic.
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On August 11 2011 16:53 Gfox wrote:
stats are fucking meaningless....
so is this post. Sure, statistics are only meaningful mathematically when they reach a level of certainty, and mathematically speaking we can't be there (i wouldn't think). But when you combine that low level of certainty with the games I'm watching, I'm far more convinced it isn't just "bad luck." Sure, people can go on hot/cold streaks (*cough* dan uggla), but watching the games, it doesn't look like the protoss players have any idea what they can do to prevent what is happening.
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On August 11 2011 15:19 xbankx wrote:
I think toss is suffering a huge metagame shift.
First: Early game aggression is almost non-existence. warpgate nerf pretty much took out all 4 gating. Terran feels safe now and can expand freely while having the choice to punish toss for expanding(1/1/1)
.Against zerg, 4 gate is very easy to stop. Zerg also recognize by making evo, you pretty much stop the other 2 possible opening by toss.
(dt/stargate)
Second: Toss's core mid/late game is getting countered easier. Colossus got easier to deal with(really in top level korean games people rarely go colossus anymore, maybe as a tech switch after gateway). Terran knows how to deal with mid game toss's mass zealot+archon+temps(by adding ghosts). Zerg's infestor/baneling play is also hard to deal with these days(Tyler even said that baneling in ovie might be OP and when have you heard chilltoss complain about balance?)
Hopefully we see some innovations from top toss players not its not looking pretty right now.
That pretty much sums it up.
Toss has suffered most from the new playstyles, especially against zerg.
Thats not complaining about Balance, because it could shift away sooner or later, but as it currently is, toss have a hard time at high level play. Perhaps something small like reducing cost for warp prism speed upgrade would be a good idea. I'd really like to see it used more often than now (and thats zero).
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besides terran all ins, which are ridiculously strong in every matchup
protoss is fine
jyp messed up a ton in those games and i couldnt believe drg managed to lose
that said jyp had a few cool ideas, with the dts in main and hts at natural being one of them
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I don't think you can beat 1/1/1 on single base if the Terran macros up, from certain size the marine ball is simply too big to kill without splash, so you take a gamble with 1gate expo to outproduce him around 10-11:00. And you hope he doesn't do like ultrafast stim push and even cloaked banshees can give you a run for your money.
Part of the reason for this is that you have to more or less go for robo or stargate to scout him AT ALL. Then when you see that cloak isn't being researched, you sigh with relief and otherwise you curse and build robo, which is huge until your second base kicks in. Then you need to know whether it's tanks, hellions, marauders and how many banshees to adjust your composition literally on the fly. I feel like the problem is both forced robo and mapcontrol Terran gets from simply having banshees, so you can't delay the push with FFs.
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I don't understand
i see no balance issue in the late mid game, typically when you would have storm and KA in PvT right now
KA was overpowered, period, and if you don't understand why, then idk what to say
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On August 11 2011 16:37 Djagulingu wrote:
Fungal starts dealing 11 more damage only to armored units and suddenly it became too strong against protoss?
But the dps is 260% of the old one dude.
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On August 11 2011 17:07 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I don't understand
i see no balance issue in the late mid game, typically when you would have storm and KA in PvT right now
KA was overpowered, period, and if you don't understand why, then idk what to say
1/1/1 all in IS overpowered, period, and if you don't understand why, then idk what to say.
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On August 11 2011 17:10 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:07 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I don't understand
i see no balance issue in the late mid game, typically when you would have storm and KA in PvT right now
KA was overpowered, period, and if you don't understand why, then idk what to say 1/1/1 all in IS overpowered, period, and if you don't understand why, then idk what to say.
What does that have to do with my post at all? They're at different points in the game. I'd like to see you get out KA and Hts by the time that push hits. Like seriously, what are you even trying to say?
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People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry
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I think some people already mentioned this, but you have to look at the overall players of each race in Code A and S. I don't know the exact numbers but I remember hearing Terran is about half of both code a and code S, so that means that zerg and toss actually shouldn't have what you would expect (they shouldn't actually be 33% in each round). Also you have to also take into account that Zerg actually had very few players in the RO16 last GSL (they had 4 I believe), and the finals ended up being ZVZ so it would seem that race ratios in Rounds might still not be an indication of balance.
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On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote:
even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Driving them to the point of insanity!
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On August 11 2011 17:18 Disastorm wrote:
I think some people already mentioned this, but you have to look at the overall players of each race in Code A and S. I don't know the exact numbers but I remember hearing Terran is about half of both code a and code S, so that means that zerg and toss actually shouldn't have what you would expect (they shouldn't actually be 33% in each round). Also you have to also take into account that Zerg actually had very few players in the RO16 last GSL (they had 4 I believe), and the finals ended up being ZVZ so it would seem that race ratios in Rounds might still is not even an indication of balance.
This is true, which is why I mention in my OP that it's still really early in the season to make some end-all argument. I'm just basing what I've said so far off whats happened so far. Everything could potentially change of course a few rounds down the line, but at the moment I'm going off the observations/stats I've seen.
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On August 11 2011 17:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:10 Jinivus wrote:On August 11 2011 17:07 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I don't understand
i see no balance issue in the late mid game, typically when you would have storm and KA in PvT right now
KA was overpowered, period, and if you don't understand why, then idk what to say 1/1/1 all in IS overpowered, period, and if you don't understand why, then idk what to say. What does that have to do with my post at all? They're at different points in the game. I'd like to see you get out KA and Hts by the time that push hits. Like seriously, what are you even trying to say?
Making fun of how you didn't even present one bit of reasoning or evidence for your claims, and no one is even talking about midgame, because protoss cant survive the first 10 mins, without being killed or contained. What post were you responding to that had anything to do with KA?
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EPT
