Note: I don't want this to turn into a balance/imbalance thread, just discussion purely on top tier play(ers) right now. Also, if there is already a thread like this feel free to close this one.
So I've been watching as many matches I can over the past few days of GSL, specifically those of my race, protoss, and I can't help but begin to wonder a few things after watching the games and looking at results across the board. (Yes I realize we're only 1 round into the season and I know it's early)
There are a few statistics I find somewhat alarming as far as trends between races go. The first of which probably stands out to many of you already which is that already, MC and Alicia, widely considered two of the top 3 protoss in the world, are into U/D matches. Out of the six remaining toss (Huk, Killer, Trickster, HongUn, Genius, and Puzzle) I see maybe three or four of them making it out if we're lucky, and the odds of all five or six being slim to none due to Huk and Killer sharing a group with Bomber. Assuming two of them make it out that still leaves a fairly disproportionate number of protoss in the round of 16.
Now moving on to Code A... This scene could even be considered more grim than the one in Code S currently with only two protoss making it out of the round of 32, one of which was mandatory because they played another protoss (JYP/anypro). After tonight, I could very well see Tassadar being the only one left alive as JYP plays DRG soon. It's also again worth noting again that like the two mentioned earlier in Code S, many of these protoss players are not even unknowns by any means with former Code S players like Inca, vanvanth, and anypro. Not to mention well respected foreigners in Naniwa and Sase.
All in all, what do you guys think of these stats on protoss? Purely coincidence? Or has the race noticeably fallen behind?
Update: JYP is the toss savior of Code A beating DRG!! xD Although like posted further down in this thread, both his wins were due largely because of massive risks taken by DRG (6pool game 2 and gold base game 3)
Update #2: Tassadar down to Yoda.. Only JYP remains in Code A
I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units.
I have noticed this too. I hope it doesnt turn into the Toss drought of brood war, but I seriously don't know what they can do. Terrans are absolutely crushing it now, Zergs have understood how to play so well now, and i think with the nerfed warp gate it has really screwed protoss. I mean, the increased build time let 4 gate come out later which is pretty impactful, but 20 seconds caused builds to be remade and protosses have been struggling to get into their rhythym since that> i have no idea what is up but i hope they get better soon
On August 11 2011 14:48 MeLo wrote: I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units.
I agree with the PvZ/PvT part to an extent, still a fair amount of losses to Z though as well in Code A at least. Unfortunately GSL is pretty Terran dominated right now at A/S levels in each round.
I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units.
First: Early game aggression is almost non-existence. warpgate nerf pretty much took out all 4 gating. Terran feels safe now and can expand freely while having the choice to punish toss for expanding(1/1/1) .Against zerg, 4 gate is very easy to stop. Zerg also recognize by making evo, you pretty much stop the other 2 possible opening by toss. (dt/stargate) Second: Toss's core mid/late game is getting countered easier. Colossus got easier to deal with(really in top level korean games people rarely go colossus anymore, maybe as a tech switch after gateway). Terran knows how to deal with mid game toss's mass zealot+archon+temps(by adding ghosts). Zerg's infestor/baneling play is also hard to deal with these days(Tyler even said that baneling in ovie might be OP and when have you heard chilltoss complain about balance?)
Hopefully we see some innovations from top toss players not its not looking pretty right now.
On August 11 2011 15:19 xbankx wrote: I think toss is suffering a huge metagame shift.
First: Early game aggression is almost non-existence. warpgate nerf pretty much took out all 4 gating. Terran feels safe now and can expand freely while having the choice to punish toss for expanding(1/1/1) .Against zerg, 4 gate is very easy to stop. Zerg also recognize by making evo, you pretty much stop the other 2 possible opening by toss. (dt/stargate) Second: Toss's core mid/late game is getting countered easier. Colossus got easier to deal with(really in top level korean games people rarely go colossus anymore, maybe as a tech switch after gateway). Terran knows how to deal with mid game toss's mass zealot+archon+temps(by adding ghosts). Zerg's infestor/baneling play is also hard to deal with these days(Tyler even said that baneling in ovie might be OP and when have you heard chilltoss complain about balance?)
Hopefully we see some innovations from top toss players not its not looking pretty right now.
I feel like therein lies the problem though, it's really hard to innovate as toss because I feel like the race is pretty rigid. You obviously HAVE to go HT or Cols late game, and our harass capabilities are pretty hard to execute without sacrificing something huge. This obviously compared to zerg and terran that can do fairly cheap drops with units that remain useful even after the drop has failed/succeeded versus units like DTs or Warp Prism that become virtually useless after their drop/harass. (Other than warping archons assuming DTs dont die obviously...)
Like other said, PVT is really in Terran's favor (not talking about balance but results). I think the culprit is the Ghost and 1-1-1!! :D It's really hard to expand early because of 1-1-1, can't really do nothing about it. You either die to it or get contain for a cost of several units while Terran already have natural up. I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression. Like Justin B. said, Protoss lacks a harass unit which might be (hopefully) release in HOTS. Protoss might be the easiest race but easiest to counter. I just hope it won't be like BW with only a few Protoss jewels around
On August 11 2011 15:40 DarkRise wrote: I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression.
I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe).
But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies.
On August 11 2011 15:19 xbankx wrote: I think toss is suffering a huge metagame shift.
First: Early game aggression is almost non-existence. warpgate nerf pretty much took out all 4 gating. Terran feels safe now and can expand freely while having the choice to punish toss for expanding(1/1/1) .Against zerg, 4 gate is very easy to stop. Zerg also recognize by making evo, you pretty much stop the other 2 possible opening by toss. (dt/stargate) Second: Toss's core mid/late game is getting countered easier. Colossus got easier to deal with(really in top level korean games people rarely go colossus anymore, maybe as a tech switch after gateway). Terran knows how to deal with mid game toss's mass zealot+archon+temps(by adding ghosts). Zerg's infestor/baneling play is also hard to deal with these days(Tyler even said that baneling in ovie might be OP and when have you heard chilltoss complain about balance?)
Hopefully we see some innovations from top toss players not its not looking pretty right now.
I think that Tyler was complaining about baneling drops because you can't tell whether an overlord is loaded or not by looking at it. If I take all of my overlords and move-command them at a protoss army during my attack, my opponent MUST split and focus down the overlords until he figures out whether I'm bluffing or not. Also, all I need to do is attempt a single drop on your mineral line and then I can make you shit your pants once a minute for the rest of the game by sacrificing an unloaded overlord whenever you move your units away. Protoss players, at least in theory, have no way to tell whether they're about to experience sudden acidic death or spectate a harmless hot-air balloon race, and this could be quite hard to deal with once zerg players start abusing it more often.
I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play. I personally dont think that Protoss players are changing up their game so they are being figured out. EGIncontrol actually stated this in a recent SOTG. When he said that his strategies were already solved. I think that when Protoss players start experimenting more we will see more victories for Aiur.
I feel Protoss players are winning not only because of flawless play, but because of risky strategies/great mistakes by their opponent + Show Spoiler +
For example, JYP just won the ace match because of DRG's fast gold strategy in metalopolis :/
On August 11 2011 15:57 billiebrightside wrote: I feel Protoss players are winning not only because of flawless play, but because of risky strategies/great mistakes by their opponent + Show Spoiler +
For example, JYP just won the ace match because of DRG's fast gold strategy in metalopolis :/
I think he showed in Game 2 that he has a new style going on. I think it needs a little bit more refinement tho. I can't wait for more people adopting the JYP/Sage kind of style.
If protoss starts winning blizzard will nerf us....Its our master plan to avoid nerfs :D
Honestly thou. I just think aggression was over nerfed for protoss so we are struggling at the moment. It might change it might not. The core problem is we just cant get any real threat out fast enough
On August 11 2011 14:48 MeLo wrote: I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units.
Protoss would never have lost to Terran 1/1/1 allin if KA hadn't been removed. Yeah. Other than that, I simply think that Protoss needs to figure out their shit, that's it.
Im surprised that GSL Protoss don't do this more honestly. Some of these ultra greedy builds I'm seeing from Terrans in the GSL could be punished reallly hard by a cannon rush. Watching Terrans do 1 rax expands or CC first builds and get away with it just seems like a bad strategy. Often they seem to skip scouting until 15ish supply too. If you did a cannon rush on a map like Terminus or Taldirm Alter I think alot of terrans in GSL would auto lose because they went for a greedy build.
Well.. I think it's because of Terran. The 1/1/1 is soooo strong when done correctly. You can say the same for Zerg too - Terrans are starting to find that bfh are good against us and we get toasted. The games only a year old. Wait for everyone to find the right groove in their games.
On August 11 2011 15:57 billiebrightside wrote: I feel Protoss players are winning not only because of flawless play, but because of risky strategies/great mistakes by their opponent + Show Spoiler +
For example, JYP just won the ace match because of DRG's fast gold strategy in metalopolis :/
I think he showed in Game 2 that he has a new style going on. I think it needs a little bit more refinement tho. I can't wait for more people adopting the JYP/Sage kind of style.
It's not even that new, as far as I know. It was very reminiscent of San's game against Nestea. I don't really know why it fell out of style, though.
On August 11 2011 15:40 DarkRise wrote: I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression.
I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe).
But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies.
Maybe?
Or they can all just cannon rush.
Well, they didnt came up with an answer. They've got buffed. Infestor change was huge, man. Fungal is so strong. It deals huge amount of damage that you take no matter what (you can at least run from the storm but not from the fungal) and you can use it right after infestors spawn (so zerg version of KA). So zerg players get their storm that disables movement so you cant micro your units and stalkers melt to anything without blink micro.
OP asks for this to "not become a balance/imbalance" discussion, and yet pretty explicitly marks upon "statistics" (of which sample sizes are trivial at best, given patching and their framework for analysis w/o some sort of control), which would encourage "balance/imbalance" discussion.
It honestly sounds like you're just a whiny Protoss player who feels sorry for himself.
Adapt or die, it's that simple. These threads are so pointless that I have no idea why I'm wasting my breath except that your OP actually irked me because of how "hey please don't discuss imba/op guys xD, man protoss sucks looking at statistics i wonder why... xD?".
On August 11 2011 15:40 DarkRise wrote: I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression.
I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe).
But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies.
Maybe?
Or they can all just cannon rush.
Well, they didnt came up with an answer. They've got buffed. Infestor change was huge, man. Fungal is so strong. It deals huge amount of damage that you take no matter what (you can at least run from the storm but not from the fungal) and you can use it right after infestors spawn (so zerg version of KA). So zerg players get their storm that disables movement so you cant micro your units and stalkers melt to anything without blink micro.
Fungal starts dealing 11 more damage only to armored units and suddenly it became too strong against protoss?
Here is the fact: Old fungal would be twice as strong against protoss ball because it had twice as much duration and 11 less damage. You probably don't want to stay at the same place for 4 seconds while a bunch of overlords are dropping bombs on your army, what if you had to stay for 8 seconds? Zerg didn't get "buffed". They found an answer.
Here is another example:
Tanks deal 70 damage per shot in beta: Nobody gives a fuck. They start dealing 50 damage per shot in 1.0.3, zergs start whining. It's all about getting figured out, or like mburke05 says:
On August 11 2011 16:35 mburke05 wrote: Adapt or die, it's that simple.
And, a fundamental difference between pathogen glands and khaydarim amulet: Protoss templars with khaydarim spawn at wherever in 5 seconds and be able to storm wherever whereas infestors would spawn where their eggs are no matter what you do. KA wouldn't be that much of a deal provided that warp tech didn't exist.
KA removal was never the reason why protoss is in this shape.
Warpgate and sentries screws over the race incredibly; it's such a bad design in terms of balance that i can't believe it made it past alpha. Because of wg/ff, zealots and stalkers NEED to be weaker than their terran and zerg counterpart; in turn, this means that 1) the race is really really weak to early aggression when no tech units are out, 2) it's hard to harass since a much smaller number of enemy units can take out easily our own small group of gw units, 3) we rely incredibly on high tech units like ht's or colossi, which in turn means that if you don't do enough damage with your first army of sentries+colossi/templars with storm ready you just die. I think it can only be sorted out with a massive design change, so at least an expansion, and in the meantime we will have to stick to our 1-2 base timings and 200/200 deathballs and hope somehow they still work (which they really don't anymore in really high level play).
On August 11 2011 16:35 mburke05 wrote: This is a seriously stupid thread/OP.
OP asks for this to "not become a balance/imbalance" discussion, and yet pretty explicitly marks upon "statistics" (of which sample sizes are trivial at best, given patching and their framework for analysis w/o some sort of control), which would encourage "balance/imbalance" discussion.
It honestly sounds like you're just a whiny Protoss player who feels sorry for himself.
Adapt or die, it's that simple. These threads are so pointless that I have no idea why I'm wasting my breath except that your OP actually irked me because of how "hey please don't discuss imba/op guys xD, man protoss sucks looking at statistics i wonder why... xD?".
What a phenomenal post... If the threads pointless, don't post in it, TL is a big forum you can go elsewhere.
To address your first point, I don't think that the two major divisions of the most important league in SC2 are trivial. That, or maybe you just don't know what trivial means (of little importance/insignificant).
Secondly, When I say dont discuss imba/op shit I mean dont go "Yeah terran and zerg are just broken" or "Protoss is just awful right now." That does not by any means suggest that I dont want a discussion of the protoss match ups right now. Hell, I actually think your on "adapt or die" statement is quite true, but now we need to figure out HOW.
And lastly, I don't really think I was very whiny either, I posted statistics and made statements, I didn't cry. And personally I'm doing fairly well right now thank you, but I'm in meaningless diamond league so my W/L is just that, meaningless.
On August 11 2011 16:42 Teoita wrote: Warpgate and sentries screws over the race incredibly; it's such a bad design in terms of balance that i can't believe it made it past alpha. Because of wg/ff, zealots and stalkers NEED to be weaker than their terran and zerg counterpart; in turn, this means that 1) the race is really really weak to early aggression when no tech units are out, 2) it's hard to harass since a much smaller number of enemy units can take out easily our own small group of gw units, 3) we rely incredibly on high tech units like ht's or colossi, which in turn means that if you don't do enough damage with your first army of sentries+colossi/templars with storm ready you just die. I think it can only be sorted out with a massive design change, so at least an expansion, and in the meantime we will have to stick to our 1-2 base timings and 200/200 deathballs and hope somehow they still work (which they really don't anymore in really high level play).
This, really. For the race to genuinely be competitive, there need to be massive design changes that we likely won't see until HotS, if not LotV. For the time being, we'll continue being victims of the 1-1-1, just like we have since mid-beta. =/
At the moment it really looks like Protoss players have big problem and Terrans are dominating - with an exception of Nestea
Although I strongly believe that it will change soon. Protosses are playing in a same way for a long time and as a result Korean Terran players found something I would call "standard way of winning with P". I have this feeling that Protoss players stopped evolving. They need to find new solutions.
I am Terran, and I love to see Terrans winning in GSL, but damn... too many TvTs. It is so boring.
But except for Korean scene, Terrans are not dominating. Look at EU Bnet Invitational, Assemby Summer. It really looks like Korean Terrans are experts in crushing Protosses. Which come from the fact that they wanted to be better than "arguably the best player in the world" oGsMc. So they are.Plenty of them
well from what i saw MC played below his usual level anypro lost pvp JYP has good ideas but he needs to practice them more and watch the minimap I dont like Alicia and Tassadar they are cheesing too much for my taste so im glad they are out Sase and Nani will practice for 1 month and rape everyone in KOrea and show them how its done inca vanvanth tails treme are just not good enough to compete with the top players in Korea atm I dont believe in genius trickster and hongun they are playing in code S forever and never achieved won anything so im not counting on them to do something soo maybe Killer Huk Puzzle some of these 3 may be able to win some games
I wish people would stop using random stats taken out of thin air to suggest that a race is bad. There are many more factors that need to be accounted. Imagine all the terrans suddenly came down with smallpox or something and were all out of the tournament. Then I could make a thread saying that Terran isnt doing well.... stats are fucking meaningless....
On August 11 2011 15:19 xbankx wrote: I think toss is suffering a huge metagame shift.
First: Early game aggression is almost non-existence. warpgate nerf pretty much took out all 4 gating. Terran feels safe now and can expand freely while having the choice to punish toss for expanding(1/1/1) .Against zerg, 4 gate is very easy to stop. Zerg also recognize by making evo, you pretty much stop the other 2 possible opening by toss. (dt/stargate) Second: Toss's core mid/late game is getting countered easier. Colossus got easier to deal with(really in top level korean games people rarely go colossus anymore, maybe as a tech switch after gateway). Terran knows how to deal with mid game toss's mass zealot+archon+temps(by adding ghosts). Zerg's infestor/baneling play is also hard to deal with these days(Tyler even said that baneling in ovie might be OP and when have you heard chilltoss complain about balance?)
Hopefully we see some innovations from top toss players not its not looking pretty right now.
On August 11 2011 16:53 Gfox wrote: I wish people would stop using random stats taken out of thin air to suggest that a race is bad. There are many more factors that need to be accounted. Imagine all the terrans suddenly came down with smallpox or something and were all out of the tournament. Then I could make a thread saying that Terran isnt doing well.... stats are fucking meaningless....
If you read the post you would notice I neither state the race is bad, nor that the stats I posted are the end-all argument. I just use them to pose a question to the forum. Also suggesting that stats are meaningless is kind of a poor argument. While I agree they can be manipulated to someones advantage, the fact is they do (usually) have some significance.
On August 11 2011 16:53 Gfox wrote: I wish people would stop using random stats taken out of thin air to suggest that a race is bad. There are many more factors that need to be accounted. Imagine all the terrans suddenly came down with smallpox or something and were all out of the tournament. Then I could make a thread saying that Terran isnt doing well.... stats are fucking meaningless....
Your example is ridiculous. Stats are good because they are grounded in reality. All Terrans coming down with smallpox at the same time is completely unrealistic.
On August 11 2011 16:53 Gfox wrote: stats are fucking meaningless....
so is this post. Sure, statistics are only meaningful mathematically when they reach a level of certainty, and mathematically speaking we can't be there (i wouldn't think). But when you combine that low level of certainty with the games I'm watching, I'm far more convinced it isn't just "bad luck." Sure, people can go on hot/cold streaks (*cough* dan uggla), but watching the games, it doesn't look like the protoss players have any idea what they can do to prevent what is happening.
On August 11 2011 15:19 xbankx wrote: I think toss is suffering a huge metagame shift.
First: Early game aggression is almost non-existence. warpgate nerf pretty much took out all 4 gating. Terran feels safe now and can expand freely while having the choice to punish toss for expanding(1/1/1) .Against zerg, 4 gate is very easy to stop. Zerg also recognize by making evo, you pretty much stop the other 2 possible opening by toss. (dt/stargate) Second: Toss's core mid/late game is getting countered easier. Colossus got easier to deal with(really in top level korean games people rarely go colossus anymore, maybe as a tech switch after gateway). Terran knows how to deal with mid game toss's mass zealot+archon+temps(by adding ghosts). Zerg's infestor/baneling play is also hard to deal with these days(Tyler even said that baneling in ovie might be OP and when have you heard chilltoss complain about balance?)
Hopefully we see some innovations from top toss players not its not looking pretty right now.
That pretty much sums it up. Toss has suffered most from the new playstyles, especially against zerg.
Thats not complaining about Balance, because it could shift away sooner or later, but as it currently is, toss have a hard time at high level play. Perhaps something small like reducing cost for warp prism speed upgrade would be a good idea. I'd really like to see it used more often than now (and thats zero).
I don't think you can beat 1/1/1 on single base if the Terran macros up, from certain size the marine ball is simply too big to kill without splash, so you take a gamble with 1gate expo to outproduce him around 10-11:00. And you hope he doesn't do like ultrafast stim push and even cloaked banshees can give you a run for your money.
Part of the reason for this is that you have to more or less go for robo or stargate to scout him AT ALL. Then when you see that cloak isn't being researched, you sigh with relief and otherwise you curse and build robo, which is huge until your second base kicks in. Then you need to know whether it's tanks, hellions, marauders and how many banshees to adjust your composition literally on the fly. I feel like the problem is both forced robo and mapcontrol Terran gets from simply having banshees, so you can't delay the push with FFs.
On August 11 2011 17:07 Itsmedudeman wrote: I don't understand
i see no balance issue in the late mid game, typically when you would have storm and KA in PvT right now
KA was overpowered, period, and if you don't understand why, then idk what to say
1/1/1 all in IS overpowered, period, and if you don't understand why, then idk what to say.
What does that have to do with my post at all? They're at different points in the game. I'd like to see you get out KA and Hts by the time that push hits. Like seriously, what are you even trying to say?
People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry
I think some people already mentioned this, but you have to look at the overall players of each race in Code A and S. I don't know the exact numbers but I remember hearing Terran is about half of both code a and code S, so that means that zerg and toss actually shouldn't have what you would expect (they shouldn't actually be 33% in each round). Also you have to also take into account that Zerg actually had very few players in the RO16 last GSL (they had 4 I believe), and the finals ended up being ZVZ so it would seem that race ratios in Rounds might still not be an indication of balance.
On August 11 2011 17:18 Disastorm wrote: I think some people already mentioned this, but you have to look at the overall players of each race in Code A and S. I don't know the exact numbers but I remember hearing Terran is about half of both code a and code S, so that means that zerg and toss actually shouldn't have what you would expect (they shouldn't actually be 33% in each round). Also you have to also take into account that Zerg actually had very few players in the RO16 last GSL (they had 4 I believe), and the finals ended up being ZVZ so it would seem that race ratios in Rounds might still is not even an indication of balance.
This is true, which is why I mention in my OP that it's still really early in the season to make some end-all argument. I'm just basing what I've said so far off whats happened so far. Everything could potentially change of course a few rounds down the line, but at the moment I'm going off the observations/stats I've seen.
On August 11 2011 17:07 Itsmedudeman wrote: I don't understand
i see no balance issue in the late mid game, typically when you would have storm and KA in PvT right now
KA was overpowered, period, and if you don't understand why, then idk what to say
1/1/1 all in IS overpowered, period, and if you don't understand why, then idk what to say.
What does that have to do with my post at all? They're at different points in the game. I'd like to see you get out KA and Hts by the time that push hits. Like seriously, what are you even trying to say?
Making fun of how you didn't even present one bit of reasoning or evidence for your claims, and no one is even talking about midgame, because protoss cant survive the first 10 mins, without being killed or contained. What post were you responding to that had anything to do with KA?
On August 11 2011 17:18 Disastorm wrote: I think some people already mentioned this, but you have to look at the overall players of each race in Code A and S. I don't know the exact numbers but I remember hearing Terran is about half of both code a and code S, so that means that zerg and toss actually shouldn't have what you would expect (they shouldn't actually be 33% in each round). Also you have to also take into account that Zerg actually had very few players in the RO16 last GSL (they had 4 I believe), and the finals ended up being ZVZ so it would seem that race ratios in Rounds might still not be an indication of balance.
if you look at statistics, the PvT win rate was in july 38/62. that does say something.
the 1/1/1 is still literary undefeated in this GSL season
Protoss are basically where Zerg were two months ago when everyone was complaining that z are too weak and underpowered. Seems that most of the 'abusive' p strats have been figured out and along with the 4-gate nerf its made it harder for the moment. However I'm sure something will be figured out soon, c'mon protoss players, get to work!
On August 11 2011 17:23 Demonaz wrote: Protoss are basically where Zerg were two months ago when everyone was complaining that z are too weak and underpowered. Seems that most of the 'abusive' p strats have been figured out and along with the 4-gate nerf its made it harder for the moment. However I'm sure something will be figured out soon, c'mon protoss players, get to work!
Actually it wasn't even close to as bad, especially since most of the problems stemmed from lategame, and you know what? Zergs didnt figure shit out, they got buffed and toss got nerfed.
It was mcs own fault he wanted drama with mvp in his group. He is unable to beat both mvp or polt statistics say enough. So next time take a normal group mc.
On August 11 2011 17:23 Demonaz wrote: Protoss are basically where Zerg were two months ago when everyone was complaining that z are too weak and underpowered. Seems that most of the 'abusive' p strats have been figured out and along with the 4-gate nerf its made it harder for the moment. However I'm sure something will be figured out soon, c'mon protoss players, get to work!
Zerg didnt just "figure things out though". the recieved massive buffs to infestor and spore crawlers.
seriously, drop the idea that some genious is gonna come up with this magic new protoss playstyle that noone has ever thought about before. its not going to happen. there are plenty of smart protoss players who practice 8-10hours a day in a pro teamhouse, everyday. If there was something that could be done, they would have figured it out by now. the game isnt just 2 months old anymore.
On August 11 2011 17:07 Itsmedudeman wrote: I don't understand
i see no balance issue in the late mid game, typically when you would have storm and KA in PvT right now
KA was overpowered, period, and if you don't understand why, then idk what to say
1/1/1 all in IS overpowered, period, and if you don't understand why, then idk what to say.
What does that have to do with my post at all? They're at different points in the game. I'd like to see you get out KA and Hts by the time that push hits. Like seriously, what are you even trying to say?
Making fun of how you didn't even present one bit of reasoning or evidence for your claims, and no one is even talking about midgame, because protoss cant survive the first 10 mins, without being killed or contained. What post were you responding to that had anything to do with KA?
Umm, there were like 3 people who pointed out the KA nerf on the first page and I was specifically talking about the mid game and how it's stupid to bring up KA when the issues protoss are having are with the early- early mid game. This was pretty clear in my previous post.
On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote: Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least.
When it is your job to be a progamer I'm sure you would see this differently. I agree that there should be time for the game to balance out but it seems hypocritical when zerg players cried for months and got their units buffed and protoss got nerfed constantly; it doesn't seem fair now that people should say protoss should suffer.
On August 11 2011 17:07 Let it Raine wrote: besides terran all ins, which are ridiculously strong in every matchup
protoss is fine
jyp messed up a ton in those games and i couldnt believe drg managed to lose
that said jyp had a few cool ideas, with the dts in main and hts at natural being one of them
Protoss can hardly beat Zerg at high levels anymore and it is being mirrored in ladder at lower levels - I dropped out of masters this week after losing pretty much all my games vs zerg.
I can beat masters terrans/toss but struggle vs even diamond zergs...
On August 11 2011 14:48 MeLo wrote: I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units.
It has nothing to do with the KA removal. Its the fact that Terrans believe that they only have about 20 minutes to win the game otherwise Protoss becomes way to efficient. So a lot of the games come down to 1 base allins 2 base timing pushes or 3 base tempo play.
If you watch MVP vs CreatorPrime and bomber vs Killer in the GSL Supertournament, you will see that even though they were far ahead it took both of them about 40 minutes to end their final game.
Right now its just a meta game shift. Terrans were complaining for a long time about Protoss, will change their play style and adapt.
On August 11 2011 14:48 MeLo wrote: I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units.
It has nothing to do with the KA removal. Its the fact that Terrans believe that they only have about 20 minutes to win the game otherwise Protoss becomes way to efficient. So a lot of the games come down to 1 base allins 2 base timing pushes or 3 base tempo play.
If you watch MVP vs CreatorPrime and bomber vs Killer in the GSL Supertournament, you will see that even though they were far ahead it took both of them about 40 minutes to end their final game.
Right now its just a meta game shift. Terrans were complaining for a long time about Protoss, will change their play style and adapt.
3-19 vs korean terran isn't just a metagame shift. Every variation of this has stomped every protoss variation of defending it. Tassadar went into that game knowing his opponent would 1-1-1. He countered it. He lost. What other all in can you say this about?
On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote: Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least.
i dont think i have ever seen a single post from you that didnt make me facepalm.
Seriously, the fact that you just judge this situation as "some balance whine" instead of actually looking into it, analazing the situation and decide wheter you think it might actually be op or not makes wonder if you completley lack the ability of critical thinking. instead you seem to be stuck with some kind of delusion that any game made by blizzard is always perfectly balanced and mustnt be questioned, no matter what people think and what statistics and results show. I can tell you, blizzards balance team has screwed up severely before. Look at Arena PvP in wow for proof of that. it was pretty much the laughing stock of ESPORTS
On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote: Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least.
When it is your job to be a progamer I'm sure you would see this differently. I agree that there should be time for the game to balance out but it seems hypocritical when zerg players cried for months and got their units buffed and protoss got nerfed constantly; it doesn't seem fair now that people should say protoss should suffer.
It's not about suffering, its about figuring it out.
All this protoss whine just reminds me of the zerg whine when they couldn't beat deathballs and said there was no solution and kept a-moving roach hydra into cols.
Contrary to popular (zerg?) belief, zergs started winning a lot more, and the win rate was increasing steadily since january, when they learned to play better, the infestor buff didn't matter much at all vs deathballs as people think, of course win rates for zerg kept growing after infestor buff for a while too, however that wasn't.
Yeah I agree, zergs magically learnt how to play after a number of buffs and removal of KA…
EDIT: Infestor buffs helped MASSIVELY vs deathballs.
I hope Blizzard won't fix anything since I'm going to switch to Terran before I hit high diamond/master. To my fellow brotoss I wish good luck, since only luck or an immense amount of skill - where your opponent require less - will win you anything and have fun with the crappiest mirror matchup ever. Oh, almost no positive changes for Protoss since Beta. I'll come back if Protoss gets a Bisu or a re-design.
On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote: Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least.
When it is your job to be a progamer I'm sure you would see this differently. I agree that there should be time for the game to balance out but it seems hypocritical when zerg players cried for months and got their units buffed and protoss got nerfed constantly; it doesn't seem fair now that people should say protoss should suffer.
It's not about suffering, its about figuring it out.
All this protoss whine just reminds me of the zerg whine when they couldn't beat deathballs and said there was no solution and kept a-moving roach hydra into cols.
Contrary to popular (zerg?) belief, zergs started winning a lot more, and the win rate was increasing steadily since january, when they learned to play better, the infestor buff didn't matter much at all vs deathballs as people think, of course win rates for zerg kept growing after infestor buff for a while too, however that wasn't.
Contrary to your belief, Starcraft 2 isnt supposed to be some kind of rocket science where it takes a team of scientists and scholars several months to figure out how to beat a simple Terran 1/1/1 build.
Seriously, this game isnt that complicated (theoreticly) and if you actually allowed yourself to use your brain for a moment you could easily figure out why 1/1/1 is overpowered. But im not gonna bother trying to explain things to you why, cause you are just gonna ignore every single sensible argument and reply with the usual "It just hasnt been figured out kk"
On August 11 2011 15:57 billiebrightside wrote: I feel Protoss players are winning not only because of flawless play, but because of risky strategies/great mistakes by their opponent + Show Spoiler +
For example, JYP just won the ace match because of DRG's fast gold strategy in metalopolis :/
On August 11 2011 17:23 Demonaz wrote: Protoss are basically where Zerg were two months ago when everyone was complaining that z are too weak and underpowered. Seems that most of the 'abusive' p strats have been figured out and along with the 4-gate nerf its made it harder for the moment. However I'm sure something will be figured out soon, c'mon protoss players, get to work!
Zerg didnt just "figure things out though". the recieved massive buffs to infestor and spore crawlers.
seriously, drop the idea that some genious is gonna come up with this magic new protoss playstyle that noone has ever thought about before. its not going to happen. there are plenty of smart protoss players who practice 8-10hours a day in a pro teamhouse, everyday. If there was something that could be done, they would have figured it out by now. the game isnt just 2 months old anymore.
In what games have the spore crawler change been a big factor? And your last sentance doesn't make sense since the protoss haven't struggled all the way since the game came out.
On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote: Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least.
When it is your job to be a progamer I'm sure you would see this differently. I agree that there should be time for the game to balance out but it seems hypocritical when zerg players cried for months and got their units buffed and protoss got nerfed constantly; it doesn't seem fair now that people should say protoss should suffer.
It's not about suffering, its about figuring it out.
All this protoss whine just reminds me of the zerg whine when they couldn't beat deathballs and said there was no solution and kept a-moving roach hydra into cols.
Contrary to popular (zerg?) belief, zergs started winning a lot more, and the win rate was increasing steadily since january, when they learned to play better, the infestor buff didn't matter much at all vs deathballs as people think, of course win rates for zerg kept growing after infestor buff for a while too, however that wasn't.
On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote: Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least.
i dont think i have ever seen a single post from you that didnt make me facepalm.
Seriously, the fact that you just judge this situation as "some balance whine" instead of actually looking into it, analazing the situation and decide wheter you think it might actually be op or not makes wonder if you completley lack the ability of critical thinking. instead you seem to be stuck with some kind of delusion that any game made by blizzard is always perfectly balanced and mustnt be questioned, no matter what people think and what statistics and results show. I can tell you, blizzards balance team has screwed up severely before. Look at Arena PvP in wow for proof of that. it was pretty much the laughing stock of ESPORTS
Race win rate shifts are extremely common. If it goes on for too long an there actually isnt anything that can be done about it, blizzard will fix it.
It's alot more similar to 5 rax reaper, which zerg simply could not respond sufficiently to, and it was quickly, (and rightfully) nerfed.
On August 11 2011 17:23 Demonaz wrote: Protoss are basically where Zerg were two months ago when everyone was complaining that z are too weak and underpowered. Seems that most of the 'abusive' p strats have been figured out and along with the 4-gate nerf its made it harder for the moment. However I'm sure something will be figured out soon, c'mon protoss players, get to work!
Zerg didnt just "figure things out though". the recieved massive buffs to infestor and spore crawlers.
seriously, drop the idea that some genious is gonna come up with this magic new protoss playstyle that noone has ever thought about before. its not going to happen. there are plenty of smart protoss players who practice 8-10hours a day in a pro teamhouse, everyday. If there was something that could be done, they would have figured it out by now. the game isnt just 2 months old anymore.
In what games have the spore crawler change been a big factor? And your last sentance doesn't make sense since the protoss haven't struggled all the way since the game came out.
Every game where a stargate is used. It's subtle, but it helps immensely.
the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
I find protoss early game atm to be somewhat weak, and a part of it has to do with sentries. The lifeline of a toss relies on force fields: good FFs allows the toss to live, and a misplaced/ineffective FF placement will cause the toss to crumble to a lot of early timing/all-ins.
@ the 1-1-1 build. Remember: its not just a build, rather a unit composition. 1-1-1 essentially opens a significant portion of the tech tree. You cant just blind counter marine tank banshee.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
Except this doesn't actually make you survive the attack.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
Staying on one base doesn’t work either, sorry. You can literally stay in your base pumping out nonstop units and still get rolled because the unit comp is so powerful.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
A lot of builds have been tried against the 1-1-1, none of them are really all that effective in practice as they are in theory.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
Except this doesn't actually make you survive the attack.
fast collosus, or charge helps you survive the attack, but you need a robo before you can make a robo bay, so it does help you survive the attack. this is a lot safer than getting a 1 gate expo
I feel like the elephant in the room that many people are ignoring is that the 1-1-1 all-in:
1. Has been around for a long, long time. See Genius vs. Rain, GSL Season 3 Open. This first point kind of invalidates the "Wait for players to figure it out, give it some time" argument.
2. Has a 100% winrate against every Protoss since last GSL's Up/Down matches. One hunded. Percent. Can someone name an all-in that has worked 100% of the time for this long a period?
Furthermore, I'd like to quote Beyonder (my favorite mod on TL, he's so friendly :D) on this, and I hope he doesn't mind, but I feel like he's very credible and says this very well:
Races could always do something, learn, adapt. But this one I feel is truly impossible to counter in a healthy way. Havent felt this way about any build up to this point. Im not saying the races are imbalanced, but this build is destroying a matchup in a game that Ive cared about and watched for 13 years. It has not been stopped and that is when people even know its coming (which is kind if hard, as you cannot scout). And I believe I have great insight in the mechanics of the game; believe in my opinion.
IIRC he plays both Toss and Zerg at high master's level.
People who think Protoss need to innovate need to play protoss. Seriously, try it and you'll realize how easy it is to die if you dont follow specific builds perfectly. Try and do something fancy with toss and you'll quickly figure out that 99% of the time a simple attack by your opponent will kill you with ease. Its the most ridgid race of the 3. Theyre are few if any options left. Our harass boils down to dts and pheonix which can be renderd useless by a spore crawler, and i'm not sure who here can say with a strait face that motherships and carriers are the answer. There is definatly room for improvement in the overall unit composition of our armies. I wish pheonix were used more in pvt
In the end no amount of creativity will make up for the god-awful dps of the stalker, and no amount of micro will change the fact that our early game defenses are a joke. FF all you want the tanks from 1-1-1 are still gonna shoot you.. The only attempt by blizzard to help Protoss early game is a few seconds off of the sentry build time, so its kinda obvious how seriously they take the problems with toss units. In the mean time lets cross our fingers
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
Except this doesn't actually make you survive the attack.
fast collosus, or charge helps you survive the attack, but you need a robo before you can make a robo bay, so it does help you survive the attack. this is a lot safer than getting a 1 gate expo
Didn't Naniwa do this against Thorzain in the TSL3 Finals? If I remember correctly he still got smashed because all Thorzain had to do was contain. Even with Naniwa's incredible play to break the contain he was so far behind and just lost.
What I find funny is that people seem to think that all professional protoss players are not putting effort into trying to find a way to beat the 1-1-1. That idea is just moronic. Mainly because if there's something that beats a pro, he will instantly try figure out how to beat it. I mean that's what makes them professionals. But mainly because as soon as a protoss can figure out how to beat this all in build, they will be basically wracking up free wins until terran stops doing it.
Feel like this thread is a touch redundant. I think a better question to ask: Is the GSL still viable. With such a strong terran lock on the tournament will it remain watchable for the remainder of the year? We're not even at least seeing zergs eat into the numbers.
On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote: Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least.
When it is your job to be a progamer I'm sure you would see this differently. I agree that there should be time for the game to balance out but it seems hypocritical when zerg players cried for months and got their units buffed and protoss got nerfed constantly; it doesn't seem fair now that people should say protoss should suffer.
It's not about suffering, its about figuring it out.
All this protoss whine just reminds me of the zerg whine when they couldn't beat deathballs and said there was no solution and kept a-moving roach hydra into cols.
Contrary to popular (zerg?) belief, zergs started winning a lot more, and the win rate was increasing steadily since january, when they learned to play better, the infestor buff didn't matter much at all vs deathballs as people think, of course win rates for zerg kept growing after infestor buff for a while too, however that wasn't.
Contrary to your belief, Starcraft 2 isnt supposed to be some kind of rocket science where it takes a team of scientists and scholars several months to figure out how to beat a simple Terran 1/1/1 build.
Seriously, this game isnt that complicated (theoreticly) and if you actually allowed yourself to use your brain for a moment you could easily figure out why 1/1/1 is overpowered. But im not gonna bother trying to explain things to you why, cause you are just gonna ignore every single sensible argument and reply with the usual "It just hasnt been figured out kk"
No need to be so passive aggressive.
We will see what happens in some months, 15 days of terran destroying protoss is hardly actually having ground to stand on.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
Except this doesn't actually make you survive the attack.
fast collosus, or charge helps you survive the attack, but you need a robo before you can make a robo bay, so it does help you survive the attack. this is a lot safer than getting a 1 gate expo
Didn't Naniwa do this against Thorzain in the TSL3 Finals? If I remember correctly he still got smashed because all Thorzain had to do was contain. Even with Naniwa's incredible play to break the contain he was so far behind and just lost.
Yep, game one; it was cross spots on meta. Thorzain denied naniwa's expo, expanded himself and backed out; naniwa was forced to run into a tank line with 2 colossi and a few gateway units as his main was almost mined out and got destroyed.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
how does 2 gate robo help hold off this build better? its not really the problem of scouting it. you'll have even less units because when the attack hits at 9.30~10.00'ish, a typical 1 gate FE will have more than paid for its nexus and more. even with a blind counter against this build, chances of you winning depend on mainly 2 things: you playing out everything perfectly, and your opponent making some sort of mistake (not QQ'ing, but thats the truth at the current moment).
On August 11 2011 17:23 Demonaz wrote: Protoss are basically where Zerg were two months ago when everyone was complaining that z are too weak and underpowered. Seems that most of the 'abusive' p strats have been figured out and along with the 4-gate nerf its made it harder for the moment. However I'm sure something will be figured out soon, c'mon protoss players, get to work!
Zerg didnt just "figure things out though". the recieved massive buffs to infestor and spore crawlers.
seriously, drop the idea that some genious is gonna come up with this magic new protoss playstyle that noone has ever thought about before. its not going to happen. there are plenty of smart protoss players who practice 8-10hours a day in a pro teamhouse, everyday. If there was something that could be done, they would have figured it out by now. the game isnt just 2 months old anymore.
In what games have the spore crawler change been a big factor? And your last sentance doesn't make sense since the protoss haven't struggled all the way since the game came out.
1. if you look at the statistics, protoss have struggled through many different periods since the game came out, and are the least succesful race in starcraft 2.
2. The spore crawler change basicly killed stargate openers, wich was an important part of PvZ
3. Look, people who have played this game on a professional level since the beta mostly have a pretty good idea of how the game works, what each race is capable of and what they are not. players know the strenghts and limits of their race. its not like there is a fundamentally important strategy or playstyle that solves all the races problem but that protoss players simply has not explored yet. its crazy to believe such a thing. 1/1/1 has been around for a year, if there was a simple counter or solution, it would have been figured out by now.
On August 11 2011 14:41 spawnzero wrote: All in all, what do you guys think of these stats on protoss? Purely coincidence? Or has the race noticeably fallen behind?
Sage, Killer, Squirtle, Hongun and Huk are in top 15 by ELO in GSTL Season 1 at the moment - the event run about the same time. I think judging by results from very short periods of time can be deceiving. To conclude that a race is falling behind would require a few months of declining results all around, and not just one bad streak for a group of the best players. MC is still number 1 in the world by earnings; he added some new ones in the previous month. Seems too early to draw conclusions.
On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote: Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least.
When it is your job to be a progamer I'm sure you would see this differently. I agree that there should be time for the game to balance out but it seems hypocritical when zerg players cried for months and got their units buffed and protoss got nerfed constantly; it doesn't seem fair now that people should say protoss should suffer.
It's not about suffering, its about figuring it out.
All this protoss whine just reminds me of the zerg whine when they couldn't beat deathballs and said there was no solution and kept a-moving roach hydra into cols.
Contrary to popular (zerg?) belief, zergs started winning a lot more, and the win rate was increasing steadily since january, when they learned to play better, the infestor buff didn't matter much at all vs deathballs as people think, of course win rates for zerg kept growing after infestor buff for a while too, however that wasn't.
Contrary to your belief, Starcraft 2 isnt supposed to be some kind of rocket science where it takes a team of scientists and scholars several months to figure out how to beat a simple Terran 1/1/1 build.
Seriously, this game isnt that complicated (theoreticly) and if you actually allowed yourself to use your brain for a moment you could easily figure out why 1/1/1 is overpowered. But im not gonna bother trying to explain things to you why, cause you are just gonna ignore every single sensible argument and reply with the usual "It just hasnt been figured out kk"
No need to be so passive aggressive.
We will see what happens in some months, 15 days of terran destroying protoss is hardly actually having ground to stand on.
It's been around since the beta mate, the only reason it's becoming more popular now is because you can actually hold a 4 gate with it since the patch. A blind allin is literally the best chance you have vs this build and I don't think many toss wanna go down that route.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
Except this doesn't actually make you survive the attack.
fast collosus, or charge helps you survive the attack, but you need a robo before you can make a robo bay, so it does help you survive the attack. this is a lot safer than getting a 1 gate expo
Didn't Naniwa do this against Thorzain in the TSL3 Finals? If I remember correctly he still got smashed because all Thorzain had to do was contain. Even with Naniwa's incredible play to break the contain he was so far behind and just lost.
in my opinion, nani should've never let those bunkers get up, you have to be PREPARED when facing this build when the terran even moves out you should have at least 1 collosus and 2nd halfway done. naniwa's downfall that game was letting the bunkers get up, that push is 100% tougher to hold with bunkers, you HAVE to attack before the bunkers or else you do the alicia move and counter, which almost never works =(
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
Delaying your expo actually makes you have LESS units by the time the push comes, it's that bad. You can see that in Tyler's 3gate robo+forges, very safe but also sets you behind against any FE builds. 2rax is there to punish 1gate FE, not 1/1/1. If there is ever an allin that has more than 50% success rate for months, it will destroy the matchup unless you are confident you can outplay your opponent in the later stages with higher probability, because there's no reason NOT to do it.
The other issue is that with siege tanks, you don't even have to attack, you can just sit in front of his main and expand behind it, because there's almost no way for 1 base toss to amass a large enough force to make trouble in your main.
The build has been around since beta, but it was polished to a mirror shine only recently. I also believe the maps were made favorable, Crevasse made it impossible to do and both Daybreak and Dual Sight aren't exactly huge.
On August 11 2011 17:44 HolyArrow wrote: I feel like the elephant in the room that many people are ignoring is that the 1-1-1 all-in:
1. Has been around for a long, long time. See Genius vs. Rain, GSL Season 3 Open. This first point kind of invalidates the "Wait for players to figure it out, give it some time" argument.
2. Has a 100% winrate against every Protoss since last GSL's Up/Down matches. One hunded. Percent. Can someone name an all-in that has worked 100% of the time for this long a period?
Furthermore, I'd like to quote Beyonder (my favorite mod on TL, he's so friendly :D) on this, and I hope he doesn't mind, but I feel like he's very credible and says this very well:
Races could always do something, learn, adapt. But this one I feel is truly impossible to counter in a healthy way. Havent felt this way about any build up to this point. Im not saying the races are imbalanced, but this build is destroying a matchup in a game that Ive cared about and watched for 13 years. It has not been stopped and that is when people even know its coming (which is kind if hard, as you cannot scout). And I believe I have great insight in the mechanics of the game; believe in my opinion.
IIRC he plays both Toss and Zerg at high master's level.
Wow, post of the thread here.
I'm kinda sad now. I really hope this thing blows over but right now all I have is despair.
I'm worried that the community will overlook this problem and sheepishly brand it as "mere whining." TL needs to be reminded that not all balance discussion is whining.
I want to sidestep the 1/1/1 or zergs almost certain ability to get a great economic lead and focus on base defence.
This is where I see most protoss struggling badly. Drops.
Drops are killing protoss in the midgame. Protoss has the slowest reactionary units in the game (stimmed units + zerg units, much faster obviously), gateway units in small numbers are terrible against either zerg or terran (sidenote: which is why protoss' harassment ability sucks and/or relies on the opponent making mistakes), and protoss have no magic bullet response like the planetary fortress. Cannons are not the answer, they're expensive, can't cover much area, and are torn down so fast by marauders or roaches to the point where they don't matter unless you build a prohibitive amount. DTs are good at base defence...unless they bring detection and/or scan, in which case they're huuuuuge resource sinks.
Obviously protoss' shitty ability to defend themselves is countered by the army being quite strong when it is actually together and properly utilised, but its becoming harder and harder to get to that point as terrans and zergs learn to harass more effectively. I have no ideal solution, but this is a major problem as I see it.
We saw I believe some protoss (Tails? IIRC) have a bunch of zealots, like 5-6, and an archon at his main base and the terran (Taeja?) simply chose to drop right on top of them and the warpins he knew would happen. Thats 20+ supply of units at ONE base for defence, and they didn't do dick.
On August 11 2011 17:47 Sabu113 wrote: Feel like this thread is a touch redundant. I think a better question to ask: Is the GSL still viable. With such a strong terran lock on the tournament will it remain watchable for the remainder of the year? We're not even at least seeing zergs eat into the numbers.
On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote: Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least.
When it is your job to be a progamer I'm sure you would see this differently. I agree that there should be time for the game to balance out but it seems hypocritical when zerg players cried for months and got their units buffed and protoss got nerfed constantly; it doesn't seem fair now that people should say protoss should suffer.
It's not about suffering, its about figuring it out.
All this protoss whine just reminds me of the zerg whine when they couldn't beat deathballs and said there was no solution and kept a-moving roach hydra into cols.
Contrary to popular (zerg?) belief, zergs started winning a lot more, and the win rate was increasing steadily since january, when they learned to play better, the infestor buff didn't matter much at all vs deathballs as people think, of course win rates for zerg kept growing after infestor buff for a while too, however that wasn't.
Contrary to your belief, Starcraft 2 isnt supposed to be some kind of rocket science where it takes a team of scientists and scholars several months to figure out how to beat a simple Terran 1/1/1 build.
Seriously, this game isnt that complicated (theoreticly) and if you actually allowed yourself to use your brain for a moment you could easily figure out why 1/1/1 is overpowered. But im not gonna bother trying to explain things to you why, cause you are just gonna ignore every single sensible argument and reply with the usual "It just hasnt been figured out kk"
No need to be so passive aggressive.
We will see what happens in some months, 15 days of terran destroying protoss is hardly actually having ground to stand on.
8 months?
I remember it being used in beta, putting it closer to 15 months.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
how does 2 gate robo help hold off this build better? its not really the problem of scouting it. you'll have even less units because when the attack hits at 9.30~10.00'ish, a typical 1 gate FE will have more than paid for its nexus and more. even with a blind counter against this build, chances of you winning depend on mainly 2 things: you playing out everything perfectly, and your opponent making some sort of mistake (not QQ'ing, but thats the truth at the current moment).
if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build?
Terran's started using ghosts and Zerg's started using infestors.
The problem is both of those units are never bad against P. Ghosts against Z aren't good 100% of the time like they are against P. No matter what unit composition the Protoss goes. Ghosts are a hard counter to Protoss. I think it needs a change, maybe have EMP NOT take away shields, only energy.
For the infestor, Protoss players were saying how good it is for so long but Zerg players stuck to Hydra/Roach/Corrupter which obviously isn't good. As soon as they started using the infestor they started winning everything. The problem is, like the ghost, the infestor has no counter. It is literally good in every situation against Protoss. The infestor is a hard counter to the entire Protoss race. Why does a unit have the ability to fungal ( which is like plague + maelstrom .. ), drop infested terrans which actually do a ton of damage for no energy, and if all else fails they can neural all the high tech units of the P.
Those 2 units are too good, there are no downfalls to getting them. They are good against Protoss 100% of the time and are incredibly powerful with zero risk. As soon as T and Z players started using them, no P players did well.
For those saying "adapt or die", what do we adapt? It's not as if we're not using our units, on an average P probably uses more units per game than any other race. We don't have a ghost or infestor that we just aren't using. Our unit compositions are never unbeatable, Protoss doesn't have the advantage at any stage of the game.
Before it was pretty much agreed that P had to get to the late game and if we got there we were almost unbeatable. But now our compositions are just weak at every stage of the game. Our 200/200 army is the weakest right now IMO. Ghost/Bio and Infestor/Blord counter just about every composition that we have and T and Z can get them way faster than we can even max.
On August 11 2011 17:44 HolyArrow wrote: 2. Has a 100% winrate against every Protoss since last GSL's Up/Down matches. One hunded. Percent. Can someone name an all-in that has worked 100% of the time for this long a period?
hongun beat ganzi with vr all-in against 1/1/1 in GSTL.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
how does 2 gate robo help hold off this build better? its not really the problem of scouting it. you'll have even less units because when the attack hits at 9.30~10.00'ish, a typical 1 gate FE will have more than paid for its nexus and more. even with a blind counter against this build, chances of you winning depend on mainly 2 things: you playing out everything perfectly, and your opponent making some sort of mistake (not QQ'ing, but thats the truth at the current moment).
if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build?
You've shown no proof of anything. EVERY build protoss has done has died to it, they aren't just 1 gate expo. 3 gate stargate, 1 base phoenix, 3 gate robo, 1 gate fe, 3 gate fe you name it.
Well, protoss player's need to be very smart right now.
1. Early game - if you aren't going for 1 base aggression you have to be very very carefull about Z/T timings, because protoss production kicks in later than Z/T.
2. Late game - protoss can be abused by great mobility of bio+medivacs or muta/ling and even roach, and you need excellent scouting and right composition to defend those attacks while being extremly cautious about moving out, because T/Z army can avoid your army and they should always win base race (terran due to flying buildings and better direct dps, zerg due to having more bases and moving faster)
Those are 2 things i find hardest about playing protoss in general and i haven't seen optimal solution to any of them. Even people like MC can defend 10 drops like a boss but 11'th will come and kill 2 tech buildings/probes/deny upgrades force your army back, leave you vunerable in other locations and give time to terran/zerg.
On August 11 2011 17:56 shinyA wrote: Ghosts are a hard counter to Protoss The infestor is a hard counter to the entire Protoss race
While i kinda agree with ghost being too good against protoss, i don't think infestors are an issue at all. There are 3 good ways to deal with infestors: Small blink stalker groups, Colossi wihhth range and good FF's, and the obvious one - HT.
I don't see people dying to infestors unless they don't scout them and move out, but it's the same with void rays for example. Player going roach/ling needs anti air, and you need anti caster to deal with infestors. HT can 1 shot 4 infestors instantly, and don't forget you can use warp prism micro if you really cant get to them.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
Delaying your expo actually makes you have LESS units by the time the push comes, it's that bad. You can see that in Tyler's 3gate robo+forges, very safe but also sets you behind against any FE builds. 2rax is there to punish 1gate FE, not 1/1/1. If there is ever an allin that has more than 50% success rate for months, it will destroy the matchup unless you are confident you can outplay your opponent in the later stages with higher probability, because there's no reason NOT to do it.
The other issue is that with siege tanks, you don't even have to attack, you can just sit in front of his main and expand behind it, because there's almost no way for 1 base toss to amass a large enough force to make trouble in your main.
The build has been around since beta, but it was polished to a mirror shine only recently. I also believe the maps were made favorable, Crevasse made it impossible to do and both Daybreak and Dual Sight aren't exactly huge.
that is true you should expand, i normally do a 2 gate robo into 2 observers, into nexus @ 6 min, into fastest possible robo bay if i see terran take a gas w/ my initial scout.
I think blink stalkers and / or phoenixes are an unexplored possibility to dealing with 1/1/1. 1/1/1 is a build that needs to stay turtled up before it's ready to crawl across the map, relies on banshee harass to punish greed, and depends on the positioning of the decisive battle.
Tassadar had an interesting game 2 where he had basically beaten the 1/1/1 but made some huge judgment errors that cost him the game.
The phoenix opener did a multitude of things. It constantly scouted the Terran base to check for any multitude of variations on the 1/1/1. It denied Banshee harass. It allowed the Protoss to stay a little more even on 1 base income by killing workers and more importantly, Mules. It forced the Terran to stay in their base and allowed the Protoss to pick an area to engage, allowing the Protoss to engage early rather then at their own front door. The Phoenixes dealt with the Banshee in battle and helped negate Siege fire briefly.
I think Blink Stalkers work in a similar way. They allow you engage, retreat, and re-engage and immobile army to slowly chip away at its strength as long as you can control the map and engage early which you should be able to do with the Stalker's mobility.
Maybe even drop play with a robotics after a 1gate FE would work. I'm sure others have also done something similar but WhiteRa's warp-prism drop / warp-in timed perfectly to hit their mineral line right as the Terran army leaves their base is great at buying time to get more out of the expansion.
I just feel like an optimized Phoenix opener or PvT 1gate FE Blink Stalker opener would work.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
how does 2 gate robo help hold off this build better? its not really the problem of scouting it. you'll have even less units because when the attack hits at 9.30~10.00'ish, a typical 1 gate FE will have more than paid for its nexus and more. even with a blind counter against this build, chances of you winning depend on mainly 2 things: you playing out everything perfectly, and your opponent making some sort of mistake (not QQ'ing, but thats the truth at the current moment).
if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build?
You think these toss that have probably been non-stop practising vs this build for the last month or so haven't tried fast collo? It doesn't work; you don't have enough gas units to take out banshees, siege tank/marine will chew through your zealots and you're left with naked collosus, I've tried MANY times.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
how does 2 gate robo help hold off this build better? its not really the problem of scouting it. you'll have even less units because when the attack hits at 9.30~10.00'ish, a typical 1 gate FE will have more than paid for its nexus and more. even with a blind counter against this build, chances of you winning depend on mainly 2 things: you playing out everything perfectly, and your opponent making some sort of mistake (not QQ'ing, but thats the truth at the current moment).
if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build?
1gate fe into a fast robo is almost as fast as a straight up 2gate robo into 1base colosuss opening. Also, why the hell would 1gate fe be unsafe against a build that attacks you 5+ minutes after the nexus has gone down, which means that the nexus actually has paid for itself? 1gate fe dies to a well executed 2rax build, but vs everything else it's perfectly safe.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
how does 2 gate robo help hold off this build better? its not really the problem of scouting it. you'll have even less units because when the attack hits at 9.30~10.00'ish, a typical 1 gate FE will have more than paid for its nexus and more. even with a blind counter against this build, chances of you winning depend on mainly 2 things: you playing out everything perfectly, and your opponent making some sort of mistake (not QQ'ing, but thats the truth at the current moment).
if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build?
Sorry but its just impossible for Protoss to handle the Raven/Siege tank/banshee composition at that point in the game. it just destroys anything a protoss player can put out.
stop saying we need more time, this build has been around since gsl 1 and the only counter used to be 4gate. dont you think the pro gamers who play this game 10 hours a day would have tried everything by now? you think there is a build that they just forgot to try? you think they actually forgot to try fast colossus? i dont know what to say
i also think that protoss metagame should shift into faster collosus, because terran can do nasty things with marines nowadays, and more observers, i make up to 5 or 6 if a game goes past 20 min. protoss players tend not to scout as well (in gsl at least) even though they have the best unit for scouting (obs), people will stop depending on gateway units as much imo
If we look at the stats March was also a pretty mad month when it comes to Protoss representation. The difference there is that Protoss players did better (so far) in Code A and Code S than now.
How it looks right now for the upcoming GSL with spoilers from GSL August: + Show Spoiler +
Ro8 Code A: 1 Up & Down: 3 Safe in Code S: 1 Unknown fate in Code S: 4 Payers safe in Code S+Code A next season: 10 (10/48 - 20,83% - 32 Code S and 16 Code A)
Maximum amount of protoss players in Code S next season is: 9/10 (10 if a Protoss wins MLG Raleigh)
Let us assume that each race gets appr. 1/3 of the 16 remaining Code A spots (5P, 5Z, 6T) next season we will have a GSL (Code A+S) that will have the following racial balance:
If not Protoss wins the Up & Down and also takes a lot of the 16 Code A spots the next GSL will be the worst in the history when it comes to representation in Code S and GSL total - even worse than Zergs representaion in GSL May.
If you watched tonight's match between Yoda and Tassader you'll see that it's possible for Protoss to defend the 1-1-1 all-in from Terrans.
I'm talking about game 2 on Crossfire where Tassadar went for fast stargate with 4 phoenix harassing and containing Yoda. This delayed the push enough for Tassadar to expand, or even tech to Colossus or Templar. Unfortunately, he did neither and instead went mass gateway units off 1 base, all the way up to the 15 minute mark. So he died quite easily.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
Except this doesn't actually make you survive the attack.
fast collosus, or charge helps you survive the attack, but you need a robo before you can make a robo bay, so it does help you survive the attack. this is a lot safer than getting a 1 gate expo
Didn't Naniwa do this against Thorzain in the TSL3 Finals? If I remember correctly he still got smashed because all Thorzain had to do was contain. Even with Naniwa's incredible play to break the contain he was so far behind and just lost.
in my opinion, nani should've never let those bunkers get up, you have to be PREPARED when facing this build when the terran even moves out you should have at least 1 collosus and 2nd halfway done. naniwa's downfall that game was letting the bunkers get up, that push is 100% tougher to hold with bunkers, you HAVE to attack before the bunkers or else you do the alicia move and counter, which almost never works =(
But wouldn't rushing to collosus mean you have a tiny ground force? And since you have no thermal lance yet considering its takes roughly 2 collosus build times to get out, I don't think stopping the bunkers from going up is plausible.
On August 11 2011 15:55 TheLOLas wrote: I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play.
Because infestors were buffed. That's not an evolution.
On August 11 2011 17:57 Brian333 wrote: I think blink stalkers and / or phoenixes are an unexplored possibility to dealing with 1/1/1. 1/1/1 is a build that needs to stay turtled up before it's ready to crawl across the map, relies on banshee harass to punish greed, and depends on the positioning of the decisive battle.
Tassadar had an interesting game 2 where he had basically beaten the 1/1/1 but made some huge judgment errors that cost him the game.
The phoenix opener did a multitude of things. It constantly scouted the Terran base to check for any multitude of variations on the 1/1/1. It denied Banshee harass. It allowed the Protoss to stay a little more even on 1 base income by killing workers and more importantly, Mules. It forced the Terran to stay in their base and allowed the Protoss to pick an area to engage, allowing the Protoss to engage early rather then at their own front door. The Phoenixes dealt with the Banshee in battle and helped negate Siege fire briefly.
I think Blink Stalkers work in a similar way. They allow you engage, retreat, and re-engage and immobile army to slowly chip away at its strength as long as you can control the map and engage early which you should be able to do with the Stalker's mobility.
Maybe even drop play with a robotics after a 1gate FE would work. I'm sure others have also done something similar but WhiteRa's warp-prism drop / warp-in timed perfectly to hit their mineral line right as the Terran army leaves their base is great at buying time to get more out of the expansion.
I just feel like an optimized Phoenix opener or PvT 1gate FE Blink Stalker opener would work.
I feel like a hidden expo and quick 6 gates would work pretty well for him. Phoenix could be very good answer to this because you either force a bay and turrets, which cuts into his marine production a lot and the chargelots off 6 gates + phoenix for every tank.
On August 11 2011 18:00 Modernist wrote: If you watched tonight's match between Yoda and Tassader you'll see that it's possible for Protoss to defend the 1-1-1 all-in from Terrans.
I'm talking about game 2 on Crossfire where Tassadar went for fast stargate with 4 phoenix harassing and containing Yoda. This delayed the push enough for Tassadar to expand, or even tech to Colossus or Templar. Unfortunately, he did neither and instead went mass gateway units off 1 base, all the way up to the 15 minute mark. So he died quite easily.
Yoda botched it horribly, tassadar went into the game with a prepared BLIND COUNTER and still lost, I think that's saying something.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
how does 2 gate robo help hold off this build better? its not really the problem of scouting it. you'll have even less units because when the attack hits at 9.30~10.00'ish, a typical 1 gate FE will have more than paid for its nexus and more. even with a blind counter against this build, chances of you winning depend on mainly 2 things: you playing out everything perfectly, and your opponent making some sort of mistake (not QQ'ing, but thats the truth at the current moment).
if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build?
1 gate FE is indeed a risky build when you are talking about holding off early heavy rax pressure, but this isn't about protoss getting 'punished' for being greedy, because the 1/1/1 hits after the expansion has more than paid for itself already.
And despite what Wolf may say, 1 base collosus isn't the way to hold this off, so an early robo bay makes no difference. Lastly, variations of this build has been around for an entire year, to say toss players just aren't used to defending this yet isn't very correct.. =/ Oh, and don't forget the bunker build time nerf too, that definitely had an impact on bunker rushing imo.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
Except this doesn't actually make you survive the attack.
fast collosus, or charge helps you survive the attack, but you need a robo before you can make a robo bay, so it does help you survive the attack. this is a lot safer than getting a 1 gate expo
Didn't Naniwa do this against Thorzain in the TSL3 Finals? If I remember correctly he still got smashed because all Thorzain had to do was contain. Even with Naniwa's incredible play to break the contain he was so far behind and just lost.
in my opinion, nani should've never let those bunkers get up, you have to be PREPARED when facing this build when the terran even moves out you should have at least 1 collosus and 2nd halfway done. naniwa's downfall that game was letting the bunkers get up, that push is 100% tougher to hold with bunkers, you HAVE to attack before the bunkers or else you do the alicia move and counter, which almost never works =(
But wouldn't rushing to collosus mean you have a tiny ground force? And since you have no thermal lance yet considering its takes roughly 2 collosus build times to get out, I don't think stopping the bunkers from going up is plausible.
not really, you can have a lot of zealots, 6-7 stalkers, 2 collo when the timing hits believe me i play this build all the time, it's as routine for me as a 3 gate FE a couple months ago
On August 11 2011 17:53 Elwar wrote: I want to sidestep the 1/1/1 or zergs almost certain ability to get a great economic lead and focus on base defence.
This is where I see most protoss struggling badly. Drops.
Drops are killing protoss in the midgame. Protoss has the slowest reactionary units in the game (stimmed units + zerg units, much faster obviously), gateway units in small numbers are terrible against either zerg or terran (sidenote: which is why protoss' harassment ability sucks and/or relies on the opponent making mistakes), and protoss have no magic bullet response like the planetary fortress. Cannons are not the answer, they're expensive, can't cover much area, and are torn down so fast by marauders or roaches to the point where they don't matter unless you build a prohibitive amount. DTs are good at base defence...unless they bring detection and/or scan, in which case they're huuuuuge resource sinks.
Obviously protoss' shitty ability to defend themselves is countered by the army being quite strong when it is actually together and properly utilised, but its becoming harder and harder to get to that point as terrans and zergs learn to harass more effectively. I have no ideal solution, but this is a major problem as I see it.
We saw I believe some protoss (Tails? IIRC) have a bunch of zealots, like 5-6, and an archon at his main base and the terran (Taeja?) simply chose to drop right on top of them and the warpins he knew would happen. Thats 20+ supply of units at ONE base for defence, and they didn't do dick.
Umm, I'd say protoss have plenty to deal with drops. With warp-ins, charge zealots, blink stalkers, feedback, protoss actually have a much better answer to drops than either terran or zerg imo.
tails got doom dropped and that was his own fault for not having anything spotting it. Any race can lose to something like that if you don't expect it. If he had just gotten 2 observers and kept them in good places that would never have happened.
On August 11 2011 18:00 Modernist wrote: If you watched tonight's match between Yoda and Tassader you'll see that it's possible for Protoss to defend the 1-1-1 all-in from Terrans.
I'm talking about game 2 on Crossfire where Tassadar went for fast stargate with 4 phoenix harassing and containing Yoda. This delayed the push enough for Tassadar to expand, or even tech to Colossus or Templar. Unfortunately, he did neither and instead went mass gateway units off 1 base, all the way up to the 15 minute mark. So he died quite easily.
and the counter to this build is to go for fast cloak and terran gets a free win.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
how does 2 gate robo help hold off this build better? its not really the problem of scouting it. you'll have even less units because when the attack hits at 9.30~10.00'ish, a typical 1 gate FE will have more than paid for its nexus and more. even with a blind counter against this build, chances of you winning depend on mainly 2 things: you playing out everything perfectly, and your opponent making some sort of mistake (not QQ'ing, but thats the truth at the current moment).
if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build?
1 gate FE is indeed a risky build when you are talking about holding off early heavy rax pressure, but this isn't about protoss getting 'punished' for being greedy, because the 1/1/1 hits after the expansion has more than paid for itself already.
And despite what Wolf may say, 1 base collosus isn't the way to hold this off, so an early robo bay makes no difference. Lastly, variations of this build has been around for an entire year, to say toss players just aren't used to defending this yet isn't very correct.. =/ Oh, and don't forget the bunker build time nerf too, that definitely had an impact on bunker rushing imo.
fast collosus works fine for me, but i'm only in masters
On August 11 2011 18:00 Modernist wrote: If you watched tonight's match between Yoda and Tassader you'll see that it's possible for Protoss to defend the 1-1-1 all-in from Terrans.
I'm talking about game 2 on Crossfire where Tassadar went for fast stargate with 4 phoenix harassing and containing Yoda. This delayed the push enough for Tassadar to expand, or even tech to Colossus or Templar. Unfortunately, he did neither and instead went mass gateway units off 1 base, all the way up to the 15 minute mark. So he died quite easily.
and the counter to this build is to go for fast cloak and terran gets a free win.
You scout the cloak and hunt the Banshees down before they can get to your base since you'll have map control with phoenixes. If they're forced to cloak that far away, they will never make it there with enough energy to do anything.
On August 11 2011 17:57 Brian333 wrote: I think blink stalkers and / or phoenixes are an unexplored possibility to dealing with 1/1/1.
I've tried both and they don't work at all : blink stalker get raped by tank and phoenixes are destroyed by marines even before the T sees them. The only thing which work ( a little bit ) is fats collo with the range upgrade but even with it you get out-ranged by tank .
I think the issue of the 1-1-1 against P is that 3 units counter all protoss units ( except carrier ) .
On August 11 2011 17:53 Elwar wrote: I want to sidestep the 1/1/1 or zergs almost certain ability to get a great economic lead and focus on base defence.
This is where I see most protoss struggling badly. Drops.
Drops are killing protoss in the midgame. Protoss has the slowest reactionary units in the game (stimmed units + zerg units, much faster obviously), gateway units in small numbers are terrible against either zerg or terran (sidenote: which is why protoss' harassment ability sucks and/or relies on the opponent making mistakes), and protoss have no magic bullet response like the planetary fortress. Cannons are not the answer, they're expensive, can't cover much area, and are torn down so fast by marauders or roaches to the point where they don't matter unless you build a prohibitive amount. DTs are good at base defence...unless they bring detection and/or scan, in which case they're huuuuuge resource sinks.
Obviously protoss' shitty ability to defend themselves is countered by the army being quite strong when it is actually together and properly utilised, but its becoming harder and harder to get to that point as terrans and zergs learn to harass more effectively. I have no ideal solution, but this is a major problem as I see it.
We saw I believe some protoss (Tails? IIRC) have a bunch of zealots, like 5-6, and an archon at his main base and the terran (Taeja?) simply chose to drop right on top of them and the warpins he knew would happen. Thats 20+ supply of units at ONE base for defence, and they didn't do dick.
Umm, I'd say protoss have plenty to deal with drops. With warp-ins, charge zealots, blink stalkers, feedback, protoss actually have a much better answer to drops than either terran or zerg imo.
tails got doom dropped and that was his own fault for not having anything spotting it. Any race can lose to something like that if you don't expect it. If he had just gotten 2 observers and kept them in good places that would never have happened.
Not really, warp ins are kind of terrible response against T drops. The problem is Terran drops are WAYYY too cost efficient vs Protoss. It takes SO much to deal with a single Terran drop, so we put a ton of resources into stopping the drop that means that we're vulnerable somewhere else. I think you should have to either upgrade medivac heal or drop ability ^_^
As for the 1/1/1 thing, the reason it's so powerful is because of cloak. Not necessarily the spell itself but the threat of it. We HAVE to get detection no matter what, so we have to put the resources into the robo and observers, usually 2. So, what kind of army can we get in time while building a robo and 2 observers ( you get 2 because if you only have one and they do go cloak they can easily pick one off with raven/marine ) ? I think it CAN be stopped but it's incredibly hard to do, and even if we have enough to stop it, Terran can just expand behind it and set up a huge contain with 10 bunkers and turrets outside of our natural.
On August 11 2011 17:57 Brian333 wrote: I think blink stalkers and / or phoenixes are an unexplored possibility to dealing with 1/1/1.
I've tried both and they don't work at all : blink stalker get raped by tank and phoenixes are destroyed by marines even before the T sees them. The only thing which work ( a little bit ) is fats collo with the range upgrade but even with it you get out-ranged by tank .
I think the issue of the 1-1-1 against P is that 3 units counter all protoss units ( except carrier ) .
Marines actually soft counter carriers, because they kill interceptors so fast
On August 11 2011 18:00 Modernist wrote: If you watched tonight's match between Yoda and Tassader you'll see that it's possible for Protoss to defend the 1-1-1 all-in from Terrans.
I'm talking about game 2 on Crossfire where Tassadar went for fast stargate with 4 phoenix harassing and containing Yoda. This delayed the push enough for Tassadar to expand, or even tech to Colossus or Templar. Unfortunately, he did neither and instead went mass gateway units off 1 base, all the way up to the 15 minute mark. So he died quite easily.
and the counter to this build is to go for fast cloak and terran gets a free win.
no not really. if the terran sees phoenix after his first banshee, the counter is NOT getting cloak. the reason is the phoenix can scout your base easily which was exactly what tassadar was doing weaving in and out of his base, he'll see the tech lab researching cloak and can respond immediately. you can get a robo facility and observer. also phoenix presence on the map will often force banshees to cloak prematurely.
cloak is 200/200/110 robo facility + obs is 200/100/65 + 25/75/40 = 225/175/105 (w/o chrono boost).
the banshee will get sniped by phoenix w/obs easily. meanwhile you open up a free tech path for protoss.
On August 11 2011 17:57 Brian333 wrote: I think blink stalkers and / or phoenixes are an unexplored possibility to dealing with 1/1/1.
I've tried both and they don't work at all : blink stalker get raped by tank and phoenixes are destroyed by marines even before the T sees them. The only thing which work ( a little bit ) is fats collo with the range upgrade but even with it you get out-ranged by tank .
I think the issue of the 1-1-1 against P is that 3 units counter all protoss units ( except carrier ) .
I'm not suggesting you engage siege mode tanks with Stalkers. You engage unsieged tanks with your Stalkers right as they leave their ramp, chip away at marines, hopefully force a siege, and then blink away once your shields are gone. After your shields regen, you engage again, chip away at the marines, hopefully force another siege, and then blink away again once your shields are gone. Maybe you can even back stab them with blink Stalkers like what PvP vColossi has turned out to force them to turn around. The goal is to slow them down as much as possible so that your 1-gate FE can give you enough units to beat their weakened ball by the time they get to your base.
And we just saw phoenix play work pretty well so I don't need to go over that again.
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to.
how does 2 gate robo help hold off this build better? its not really the problem of scouting it. you'll have even less units because when the attack hits at 9.30~10.00'ish, a typical 1 gate FE will have more than paid for its nexus and more. even with a blind counter against this build, chances of you winning depend on mainly 2 things: you playing out everything perfectly, and your opponent making some sort of mistake (not QQ'ing, but thats the truth at the current moment).
if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build?
A 1gate FE has more than paid for itself by the time the push comes. The nexus finishes around 6:00. From there you are mining for about 3 minutes, and as each worker mines ~40 per minute, needs about 10 worker-mining minutes to pay for itself. Easily pays for itself.
2 rax zergs just had to realize that if they pulled drones to help defend, it wasn't actually that hard to stop. Most of the time I see zergs end up roughly even after a 2 rax. The solution to this build isn't as clear cut, especially since with this 1/1/1, the terran has the tools to hold off almost EVERY single allin/pressure by protoss in the game. The only allin I can think of that will most likely beat this is 3gate blink rush, and even then, if the terran decided to go cloak banshee, you still autolose. Tassadar tried both stargate openings, and still lost both times doing the supposed hard counter. DT? Pull SCV's to repair while making a raven/saving scans. Push for easy win. void all-in? repair and make viking+siegetank. 4gate? repair bunker while making stuff. This build is extremely solid against all the tools in the protoss arsenal right now.
Korean terrans are simply much, much better than Korean protosses or zergs. Terran is not OP in EU/NA at all so what other explanation is there for the amount of terrans in Code S and A.
On August 11 2011 17:57 Brian333 wrote: I think blink stalkers and / or phoenixes are an unexplored possibility to dealing with 1/1/1.
I've tried both and they don't work at all : blink stalker get raped by tank and phoenixes are destroyed by marines even before the T sees them. The only thing which work ( a little bit ) is fats collo with the range upgrade but even with it you get out-ranged by tank .
I think the issue of the 1-1-1 against P is that 3 units counter all protoss units ( except carrier ) .
I'm not suggesting you engage siege mode tanks with Stalkers. You engage unsieged tanks with your Stalkers right as they leave their ramp, chip away at marines, hopefully force a siege, and then blink away once your shields are gone. After your shields regen, you engage again, chip away at the marines, hopefully force another siege, and then blink away again once your shields are gone. Maybe you can even back stab them with blink Stalkers like what PvP vColossi has turned out to force them to turn around. The goal is to slow them down as much as possible so that your 1-gate FE can give you enough units to beat their weakened ball by the time they get to your base.
And we just saw phoenix play work pretty well so I don't need to go over that again.
Oh my god, if a blind counter loses to a horribly executed allin it doesn't mean the allin's balanced.
On August 11 2011 18:18 Laurence wrote: Korean terrans are simply much, much better than Korean protosses or zergs. Terran is not OP in EU/NA at all so what other explanation is there for the amount of terrans in Code S and A.
Hey this guy got it right, thus quoting him for the truth. Terrans just are simply better than their Protoss and Zerg bretheren in Korea.
On August 11 2011 18:18 Laurence wrote: Korean terrans are simply much, much better than Korean protosses or zergs. Terran is not OP in EU/NA at all so what other explanation is there for the amount of terrans in Code S and A.
Eu/NA players have terrible micro and terran is the race that benefits the most from good micro is the most simple explanation. Foreigners have proven that they are actually terrible compared to koreans recently so we should absolutely not judge balance based on their results.
On August 11 2011 18:04 Itsmedudeman wrote: supply of units at ONE base for defence, and they didn't do dick. Umm, I'd say protoss have plenty to deal with drops. With warp-ins, charge zealots, blink stalkers, feedback, protoss actually have a much better answer to drops than either terran or zerg imo.
Terran and zerg stop drops with.... zerglings, mutalisks, roaches...really fast units....or stimmed MMM....or planetary fortresses.
Charge zealots aren't much better than regular zealots at handling drops - they suck against units been healed or roaches, for instance -, blink stalkers stop drops if you have 6-7 of them **directly near the drop**, which is hardly feasible on more than two bases. Warp-ins are meant to be the answer, but relies on a) massive amount of idle gateways (more than 1 gateway unit for every 2 food worth of units dropped...much more for stimmed MMM) b) huge amount of unused resources/bad macro.
tails got doom dropped and that was his own fault for not having anything spotting it. Any race can lose to something like that if you don't expect it. If he had just gotten 2 observers and kept them in good places that would never have happened.
Terrans regularly mop up "doom drops" from both other terrans and zergs. Zergs a) have easy means to spot such drops, and b) very rarely have said drops happen to them because they can respond in the blink of an eye. Both can actually respond before their base and tech tree is wiped from existence.
On August 11 2011 18:00 Modernist wrote: If you watched tonight's match between Yoda and Tassader you'll see that it's possible for Protoss to defend the 1-1-1 all-in from Terrans.
I'm talking about game 2 on Crossfire where Tassadar went for fast stargate with 4 phoenix harassing and containing Yoda. This delayed the push enough for Tassadar to expand, or even tech to Colossus or Templar. Unfortunately, he did neither and instead went mass gateway units off 1 base, all the way up to the 15 minute mark. So he died quite easily.
and the counter to this build is to go for fast cloak and terran gets a free win.
no not really. if the terran sees phoenix after his first banshee, the counter is NOT getting cloak. the reason is the phoenix can scout your base easily which was exactly what tassadar was doing weaving in and out of his base, he'll see the tech lab researching cloak and can respond immediately. you can get a robo facility and observer. also phoenix presence on the map will often force banshees to cloak prematurely.
cloak is 200/200/110 robo facility + obs is 200/100/65 + 25/75/40 = 225/175/105 (w/o chrono boost).
the banshee will get sniped by phoenix w/obs easily. meanwhile you open up a free tech path for protoss.
Maybe you are right. either way, i think Yoda overcommited to defending the harass wich delayed his push. with 1/1/1 its OK to lose a few SCVs as long as you dont push out to late.
This 1-1-1 build is exposing basic flaws in the game, I cant see Blizzard fixing this before HOTS, From all the games i have seen 1 gate Robo expand looks the best bet for Protoss at the moment.
The basic flaws as i see it.
1/ Terran reaches 90% of its tech tree in under 7 mins while on 1 base and cant be punished due to flaws in design of the other 2 races.
2/ The dps of the marine is crazy good and it counters all units cost for cost.
Since the release of the game its always been Zerg and Protoss playing catch up to Terran. Terran invents a new strat or refines an old one and the other 2 races suffer.
The other 2 races need the massive AOE dps of Storm \ Colossus \ Fungal \ Baneling to deal with Terran Bio power. This cant be fixed until HOTS comes out without screwing Terran late game
We have only seen 2 protoss players in GSL yet. MC has had weak PvT for ages now and Alicia is in a slump in general as we could see at MLG.
Purely based on numbers, we could still see more protoss players advancing than zerg players. Even though the 111 is disgusting, we should wait with the heavy QQ until Puzzle, HongUn, Tester, Genius and HuK have played.
On August 11 2011 18:24 Topdoller wrote: This 1-1-1 build is exposing basic flaws in the game, I cant see Blizzard fixing this before HOTS, From all the games i have seen 1 gate Robo expand looks the best bet for Protoss at the moment.
The basic flaws as i see it.
1/ Terran reaches 90% of its tech tree in under 7 mins while on 1 base and cant be punished due to flaws in design of the other 2 races.
2/ The dps of the marine is crazy good and it counters all units cost for cost.
Since the release of the game its always been Zerg and Protoss playing catch up to Terran. Terran invents a new strat or refines an old one and the other 2 races suffer.
The other 2 races need the massive AOE dps of Storm \ Colossus \ Fungal \ Baneling to deal with Terran Bio power. This cant be fixed until HOTS comes out without screwing Terran late game
On August 11 2011 18:00 Modernist wrote: If you watched tonight's match between Yoda and Tassader you'll see that it's possible for Protoss to defend the 1-1-1 all-in from Terrans.
I'm talking about game 2 on Crossfire where Tassadar went for fast stargate with 4 phoenix harassing and containing Yoda. This delayed the push enough for Tassadar to expand, or even tech to Colossus or Templar. Unfortunately, he did neither and instead went mass gateway units off 1 base, all the way up to the 15 minute mark. So he died quite easily.
and the counter to this build is to go for fast cloak and terran gets a free win.
Use the super mobile phoenix to find the Banshee and force it to cloak early. It won't last forever.
On August 11 2011 18:25 sleepingdog wrote: We have only seen 2 protoss players in GSL yet. MC has had weak PvT for ages now and Alicia is in a slump in general as we could see at MLG.
Purely based on numbers, we could still see more protoss players advancing than zerg players. Even though the 111 is disgusting, we should wait with the heavy QQ until Puzzle, HongUn, Tester, Genius and HuK have played.
Weak PvT and yet statistically and just looking at NASL finals he's the best PvT in the world. What does that tell you?
These threads always devolve into people taking what is statistically a small sample of games(less then 20) at the highest level of play then including their own experiences at much lower level play to rationalize that X race/build is imbalanced.
Think about this, GSL code A and code S for the most part are the best sc2 players in the world. There are still quite a few protoss(especially considering how many high level korean players play Terran), and GSL code a July finals was pvp. Protoss are still making it into the highest leagues of play, but because of the 5-10 most recent games they see on TV people decide that a race is in trouble.
So if P is underpowered how did they get there to the highest levels in the first place? Are they just insanely good and 2 times better then their opponents?
Yes 1-1-1 is very strong and seems like it's a win every game. But protoss have these types of builds too, I've never seen a GSL game where a terran has held a 6 gate after one rax expanding without taking game ending damage,other then huk vs polt on crevasse where huk made a ton of mistakes.
On August 11 2011 18:32 Nibbler89 wrote: These threads always devolve into people taking what is statistically a small sample of games(less then 20) at the highest level of play then including their own experiences at much lower level play to rationalize that X race/build is imbalanced.
Think about this, GSL code A and code S for the most part are the best sc2 players in the world. There are still quite a few protoss, and GSL code a July finals was pvp. Protoss are still making it into the highest leagues of play, but because of the 5-10 most recent games they see on TV people decide that a race is in trouble.
So if P is underpowered how did they get there to the highest levels in the first place? Are they just insanely good and 2 times better then their opponents?
Yes 1-1-1 is very strong and seems like it's a win every game. But protoss have these types of builds too, I've never seen a GSL game where a terran has held a 6 gate after one rax expanding without taking game ending damage,other then huk vs polt on crevasse where huk made a ton of mistakes.
Yeah well I've never seen a game were a protoss held a 1-1-1 no matter what they do. It's not a matter of playing greedy and being punished. Nothing seems to even survive, let alone stop efficiently.
On August 11 2011 18:24 Topdoller wrote: This 1-1-1 build is exposing basic flaws in the game, I cant see Blizzard fixing this before HOTS, From all the games i have seen 1 gate Robo expand looks the best bet for Protoss at the moment.
The basic flaws as i see it.
1/ Terran reaches 90% of its tech tree in under 7 mins while on 1 base and cant be punished due to flaws in design of the other 2 races.
2/ The dps of the marine is crazy good and it counters all units cost for cost.
Since the release of the game its always been Zerg and Protoss playing catch up to Terran. Terran invents a new strat or refines an old one and the other 2 races suffer.
The other 2 races need the massive AOE dps of Storm \ Colossus \ Fungal \ Baneling to deal with Terran Bio power. This cant be fixed until HOTS comes out without screwing Terran late game
Oh please don't whine.
#1 is exaggerating. #2 is blatantly untrue.
No whine here. Simply switch to Terran if you dont like the game as it is. I did as i play casual and its the best thing i ever done
This problem is an Esports problem not a problem for 99.9% of the gamers still playing this game. The only guy on this forum who posts on a regular basis is Jinro who can really comment on this.
I wish threads like this were closed instantly by the mods tbh. Its all QQ
On August 11 2011 18:25 sleepingdog wrote: We have only seen 2 protoss players in GSL yet. MC has had weak PvT for ages now and Alicia is in a slump in general as we could see at MLG.
Purely based on numbers, we could still see more protoss players advancing than zerg players. Even though the 111 is disgusting, we should wait with the heavy QQ until Puzzle, HongUn, Tester, Genius and HuK have played.
Weak PvT and yet statistically and just looking at NASL finals he's the best PvT in the world. What does that tell you?
Heh I'm P, we are on the same side
I'm just saying, that Alicia going out didn't surprise me "that" much, and MC lost to Bomber both in macro and against 111 not long ago.....
The thing is, not only do more players play terran, but we should accept that these terran players are also pretty damn good.
On August 11 2011 18:32 Nibbler89 wrote: These threads always devolve into people taking what is statistically a small sample of games(less then 20) at the highest level of play then including their own experiences at much lower level play to rationalize that X race/build is imbalanced.
Think about this, GSL code A and code S for the most part are the best sc2 players in the world. There are still quite a few protoss(especially considering how many high level korean players play Terran), and GSL code a July finals was pvp. Protoss are still making it into the highest leagues of play, but because of the 5-10 most recent games they see on TV people decide that a race is in trouble.
So if P is underpowered how did they get there to the highest levels in the first place? Are they just insanely good and 2 times better then their opponents?
Yes 1-1-1 is very strong and seems like it's a win every game. But protoss have these types of builds too, I've never seen a GSL game where a terran has held a 6 gate after one rax expanding without taking game ending damage,other then huk vs polt on crevasse where huk made a ton of mistakes.
MC is far far better than his "rivals" save NesTea. You see his macro and defense against puma? Have you watched his impeccable micro? MVP doesn't come close to that.
Huk and Nani are absurdly better than their foreign terran counterparts.
So yeah Toss players are outplaying their opponents.
If you allow me a high amount of generalization, I think that the current struggle for Protoss in ultra high-level play (aside from the infamous 1-1-1) is not merely a matter of banal metagame shifting; I reckon that the current status might be simply due to the fact that harassment has become much more integral to the game, and Terran is peculiarly effective at it—see the recent MMA vs Nestea match for a good example. Multitasking-intensive Terran is extremely good, due to the viability of drops and high-damage kiting. It does not help that in direct engagement a handful of Ghosts can insta-EMP half an army without exposing to much of a risk, either.
I would hope that even small modifications could help Protoss significantly. Maybe if EMPs gradually affected units in time, like Storms, it would be better; a small buff to the War Prism could help Protoss to harass more effectively, etc. Otherwise, Blizzard would need to review much of the race's properties to grant a flexibility that is currently missing (I see many users complaining about how "rigid" Protoss play is, and I agree to an extent).
Disclosure: I no longer play SC2 actively (former Terran), but I still follow it as a spectator.
On August 11 2011 18:32 Nibbler89 wrote: These threads always devolve into people taking what is statistically a small sample of games(less then 20) at the highest level of play then including their own experiences at much lower level play to rationalize that X race/build is imbalanced.
Think about this, GSL code A and code S for the most part are the best sc2 players in the world. There are still quite a few protoss(especially considering how many high level korean players play Terran), and GSL code a July finals was pvp. Protoss are still making it into the highest leagues of play, but because of the 5-10 most recent games they see on TV people decide that a race is in trouble.
So if P is underpowered how did they get there to the highest levels in the first place? Are they just insanely good and 2 times better then their opponents?
Yes 1-1-1 is very strong and seems like it's a win every game. But protoss have these types of builds too, I've never seen a GSL game where a terran has held a 6 gate after one rax expanding without taking game ending damage,other then huk vs polt on crevasse where huk made a ton of mistakes.
MC is far far better than his "rivals" save NesTea. You see his macro and defense against puma? Have you watched his impeccable micro? MVP doesn't come close to that.
Huk and Nani are absurdly better than their foreign terran counterparts.
So yeah Toss players are outplaying their opponents.
haha so MC is far far better then MVP and polt?(not that mc isn't a great player, but acting like MVP is plat league compared to MC is unarguably retarded) the bias is hilarious but ultimately creates pointless debates / discussions. reminds me of the age of silver-gold zergs saying since they played zerg they are actually diamond or masters+ level.
From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea.
On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote: From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea.
That's an opinion, I personally think they are all on par, Polt is pretty good now. What I took issue with was saying " far far better" then his rivals, can't believe I have to explain this.
On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote: From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea.
There's a difference between how hard a race is and how strong it is.
My personal opinion. Protoss isn't strong, but there's really nothing hard about Protoss mechanics. Maybe it is harder for Protoss to actually win, but maybe not harder to play.
So in terms of balance, Protoss is weaker and weaker the higher the level is because of the low skill ceiling and because of balance.
On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote: From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea.
That's an opinion, I personally think they are all on par, Polt is pretty good now. What I took issue with was saying " far far better" then his rivals, can't believe I have to explain this.
The guy part times pro-gaming part time goes to school. Also I genuinely don't think his control or macro is comparable. I'll even let you have MVP grudgingly but not polt.
On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote: From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea.
That's an opinion, I personally think they are all on par, Polt is pretty good now. What I took issue with was saying " far far better" then his rivals, can't believe I have to explain this.
The guy part times pro-gaming part time goes to school. Also I genuinely don't think his control or macro is comparable. I'll even let you have MVP grudgingly but not polt.
Fair enough, maybe MC should reroll T and win GSL for next 5 years ~_~ or until they nerf T. I mean it seems like you actually think this would be the case.
On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote: From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea.
That's an opinion, I personally think they are all on par, Polt is pretty good now. What I took issue with was saying " far far better" then his rivals, can't believe I have to explain this.
Of course, Polt has good results, but if you put him up against other Terrans (I don't like feel like comparing Korean protoss and terran players atm as I don't feel it's fair, be it game balance issues or "more advanced metagame" from terran), he sure doesn't look as impressive as MVP or Bomber.
MC on the other hand, and HuK at times, do seem to have unparalleled micro, multitasking and minimap awareness.
It's just that the players that impress me the most are MC, MVP, Bomber and Nestea, not really Polt, Puma, and other very good korean terrans doing some multipronged marauder drops and hitting precise EMPs.
On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote: People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry
Couldn't agree more with this. Can't stand all the excuses people make about why toss is doing bad, from 'use moar warp prisms' or 'toss isn't weak, it's just that every player who plays toss is bad' or 'toss aren't creative and innovative'. I don't think I need to say any more, this guys post summed it up.
And lol at the guy who thought fungal growth wasn't buffed, and that zergs just magically started using it of their own accord.
On August 11 2011 18:25 sleepingdog wrote: We have only seen 2 protoss players in GSL yet. MC has had weak PvT for ages now and Alicia is in a slump in general as we could see at MLG.
Purely based on numbers, we could still see more protoss players advancing than zerg players. Even though the 111 is disgusting, we should wait with the heavy QQ until Puzzle, HongUn, Tester, Genius and HuK have played.
I wouldnt say Alicia is in a slump because of PvP, he lost 2-0 to ToD in the open bracket in PvP then met him again with extended series otherwise would of won 2-1, 2-2 to lose 4-2. PvP as everyone knows is a coinflip at times. If he had met any other matchup wouldnt of been the same, fare enough he probabyl sould of played better vs ToD but ToD played very well!!!
On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote: People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry
Couldn't agree more with this. Can't stand all the excuses people make about why toss is doing bad, from 'use moar warp prisms' or 'toss isn't weak, it's just that every player who plays toss is bad' or 'toss aren't creative and innovative'. I don't think I need to say any more, this guys post summed it up.
And lol at the guy who thought fungal growth wasn't buffed, and that zergs just magically started using it of their own accord.
Protoss have actually experimented a lot in the last say 4-5 months: people in pvt have gone colossus/phoenix, fast templar, zealot/archon, double forge colossus, mass gateway: it might look similar but there's pretty substantial differences in all these builds...the only thing that we havent experimented with is carriers because it's impossible to stay alive until a meaningful count is out unless you get to lategame.
Can we stop having these threads? Everyone knows that Protoss is getting completely ass-raped right now. Some top level Protoss will figure something out, and we'll learn to adapt, or eventually it will get so bad that Blizzard will make a patch. It's obvious that what is normal, standard play, is absolutely terrible right now, so obviously there needs to be a change.
Either that, or maybe Terrans will stop using 1/1/1, or maybe Zergs will never use infestors and go back to only making roach/hydra. Then we can start winning again.
On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote: From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea.
That's an opinion, I personally think they are all on par, Polt is pretty good now. What I took issue with was saying " far far better" then his rivals, can't believe I have to explain this.
Of course, Polt has good results, but if you put him up against other Terrans (I don't like feel like comparing Korean protoss and terran players atm as I don't feel it's fair, be it game balance issues or "more advanced metagame" from terran), he sure doesn't look as impressive as MVP or Bomber.
MC on the other hand, and HuK at times, do seem to have unparalleled micro, multitasking and minimap awareness.
It's just that the players that impress me the most are MC, MVP, Bomber and Nestea, not really Polt, Puma, and other very good korean terrans doing some multipronged marauder drops and hitting precise EMPs.
Fair enough polt is definitely on the lower end of that list despite being quite good. What I think is amusing is people forget, MC CHOSE MVP knowing it was possible mvp would choose polt who has very strong tvp. MC is an awesome player /showman with incredible confidence it's a shame more protoss players don't try to emulate that aspect of him despite looking up to him.
On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote: People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry
Couldn't agree more with this. Can't stand all the excuses people make about why toss is doing bad, from 'use moar warp prisms' or 'toss isn't weak, it's just that every player who plays toss is bad' or 'toss aren't creative and innovative'. I don't think I need to say any more, this guys post summed it up.
And lol at the guy who thought fungal growth wasn't buffed, and that zergs just magically started using it of their own accord.
I was listening to the VOD of Inside the Game 11, where game balance is a bit adressed at the end. And as usual IdrA reaffirmed that protoss players are dumb, cheesy and abusive motherfuckers and that protoss is actually overpowered. It's probably the main source of Protoss' bad reputation as zerg players tend to follow IdrA's word quite blindly. On top of that, Painuser was with him on this one, which let Incontrol kinda helpless.
I myself felt quite astonished before such a trollish attitude from 2 pros. IdrA was like "Protoss only needs to play turtle against Zerg, you dumbfuck". I thought that it was clear by now that you needed to pressure zerg and all that.
On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote: People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry
Couldn't agree more with this. Can't stand all the excuses people make about why toss is doing bad, from 'use moar warp prisms' or 'toss isn't weak, it's just that every player who plays toss is bad' or 'toss aren't creative and innovative'. I don't think I need to say any more, this guys post summed it up.
And lol at the guy who thought fungal growth wasn't buffed, and that zergs just magically started using it of their own accord.
Protoss have actually experimented a lot in the last say 4-5 months
On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote: From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea.
There's a difference between how hard a race is and how strong it is.
My personal opinion. Protoss isn't strong, but there's really nothing hard about Protoss mechanics. Maybe it is harder for Protoss to actually win, but maybe not harder to play.
So in terms of balance, Protoss is weaker and weaker the higher the level is because of the low skill ceiling and because of balance.
Maybe I'm the only one but I find protoss micro a lot harder than zerg micro actually (terran I can't comment on because I haven't played enough). Even a slight mistake with an FF can lose you the game after all, which makes me too scared too even really on sentry heavy play. I guess you could say the same for muta control- if you lose too many it's gg, but to me harassing with mutas is far less finicky than trying to cast FFs where a cm out means fail. I'm not saying zerg is easier or anything just that in terms of micro the whole 'EZ toss' thing seems to be exaggerated to me.
On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote: People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry
Couldn't agree more with this. Can't stand all the excuses people make about why toss is doing bad, from 'use moar warp prisms' or 'toss isn't weak, it's just that every player who plays toss is bad' or 'toss aren't creative and innovative'. I don't think I need to say any more, this guys post summed it up.
And lol at the guy who thought fungal growth wasn't buffed, and that zergs just magically started using it of their own accord.
I was listening to the VOD of Inside the Game 11, where game balance is a bit adressed at the end. And as usual IdrA reaffirmed that protoss players are dumb, cheesy and abusive motherfuckers and that protoss is actually overpowered. It's probably the main source of Protoss' bad reputation as zerg players tend to follow IdrA's word quite blindly. On top of that, Painuser was with him on this one, which let Incontrol kinda helpless.
I myself felt quite astonished before such a trollish attitude from 2 pros. IdrA was like "Protoss only needs to play turtle against Zerg, you dumbfuck". I thought that it was clear by now that you needed to pressure zerg and all that.
thats because Idra wants us to play that way so he can drone up and make his 200/200 army without any hassle from the Protoss. Zergs seem to believe him though which is shocking...
On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote: From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea.
That's an opinion, I personally think they are all on par, Polt is pretty good now. What I took issue with was saying " far far better" then his rivals, can't believe I have to explain this.
Of course, Polt has good results, but if you put him up against other Terrans (I don't like feel like comparing Korean protoss and terran players atm as I don't feel it's fair, be it game balance issues or "more advanced metagame" from terran), he sure doesn't look as impressive as MVP or Bomber.
MC on the other hand, and HuK at times, do seem to have unparalleled micro, multitasking and minimap awareness.
It's just that the players that impress me the most are MC, MVP, Bomber and Nestea, not really Polt, Puma, and other very good korean terrans doing some multipronged marauder drops and hitting precise EMPs.
Fair enough polt is definitely on the lower end of that list despite being quite good. What I think is amusing is people forget, MC CHOSE MVP knowing it was possible mvp would choose polt who has very strong tvp. MC is an awesome player /showman with incredible confidence it's a shame more protoss players don't try to emulate that aspect of him despite looking up to him.
That was definitely a mistake for MC to pick MVP, drama or not.
On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote: People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry
Couldn't agree more with this. Can't stand all the excuses people make about why toss is doing bad, from 'use moar warp prisms' or 'toss isn't weak, it's just that every player who plays toss is bad' or 'toss aren't creative and innovative'. I don't think I need to say any more, this guys post summed it up.
And lol at the guy who thought fungal growth wasn't buffed, and that zergs just magically started using it of their own accord.
I was listening to the VOD of Inside the Game 11, where game balance is a bit adressed at the end. And as usual IdrA reaffirmed that protoss players are dumb, cheesy and abusive motherfuckers and that protoss is actually overpowered. It's probably the main source of Protoss' bad reputation as zerg players tend to follow IdrA's word quite blindly. On top of that, Painuser was with him on this one, which let Incontrol kinda helpless.
I myself felt quite astonished before such a trollish attitude from 2 pros. IdrA was like "Protoss only needs to play turtle against Zerg, you dumbfuck". I thought that it was clear by now that you needed to pressure zerg and all that.
thats because Idra wants us to play that way so he can drone up and make his 200/200 army without any hassle from the Protoss. Zergs seem to believe him though which is shocking...
Yeah, and even painuser agreed with greg on that one, lol. wich i guess kinda makes sense since he has casted american leagues where lots of bad zerg players got kinda stomped.
I see P players dropping like flies in tournaments lately and it's hard not to think about some balance issues. 1-1-1 seems impossible to defend sometimes, drops are always hard to deal with, infestors are pretty ridiculous. As a P player I too am having tons of trouble against Zerg lately. It feels like Protoss has problems right now, as a race.
But after all of that, I can't help but go back and consider what happened when Zerg was considered underpowered against Protoss a few months ago. They whined about how they had to go roach-hydra-corruptor for various reasons, how they had been playing against Protoss for almost a year and they had the top pro players trying to figure out the matchup. "It's all been tried," they said, "and we have to play way better than Protoss to win." They said the race itself was the problem. And we, the Protoss players, told them "stop whining and start trying to figure out solutions." We said "use infestors!" And eventually they did. They adapted and learned new strategies. Yes, the infestor buff had a big impact on the matchup, but I think even if they rolled back the infestor change Zerg would still be performing great against Protoss. Banelings, drops, the snare ability of fungal, infested terrans, and neural parasite are playing huge rolls in the matchup now. Roach-ling aggression early on is shaking up the entire Protoss early game.
I guess my point is, I see this sort of thing happening right in this thread. Protoss players saying "The race is weak by design! We can't get creative. The top players can't figure this out so there's nothing to figure out." Even I feel inclined to think this way based on recent pro results. And T and Z players are here saying "Stop whining and try to figure stuff out. The game's young. Protoss has lots of stuff yet to try." The rolls are totally reversed.
So even though it feels like Protoss is having a hard time right now and the game isn't balanced to me as a Protoss player, I have to sit back and say to the rest of my Brotoss brethren: Let's not whine just yet. We're better than that. Let's try to figure stuff out.
(I will undermine my brilliant and insightful post by just saying this: infestors and marines are still totally OP. blizzard has to fix that crap and it would help a lot in pvz and against 1-1-1 all-in.)
As a high diamond protoss player who still going about 50/50 in all my match-ups. I say leave things be. If it is really imbalanced, and isn't something that is just affected my the meta game, then another month of games will make is VERY obvious. If not, we'll adapt, and be better players for it.
It seems really hard to hold off early Terran pressure when you go for 2 gate or even 3 gate expand. From my own experience you need to get a relatively fast collossus to hold them timings off
On August 11 2011 19:18 ProxyKnoxy wrote: It seems really hard to hold off early Terran pressure when you go for 2 gate or even 3 gate expand. From my own experience you need to get a relatively fast collossus to hold them timings off
Colossus get owned by the 1-1-1 push though. Four banshees focus down a colossus in a second and your gateway army is too small to deal with the rest.
On August 11 2011 15:40 DarkRise wrote: I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression.
I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe).
But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies.
Maybe?
Or they can all just cannon rush.
What answer? The only answer I know of, is the buffed spell caster, with now 2x the DPS vs light, and 2.333x vs armored.
Maybe if Blizz were to buff Storm in the same way, P would do OK again.
The most stupid desicion by blizzard was the creation of dark shrine, i think that if DT bacome available with templar archives, protoss would have harassing unit and viable tech path due to HT. But i am just diamond noob.
The only positive in all off this is that people are finally starting to recognize issues that i and many other protoss players first adressed more than 6 months ago. because of that, i dont get too down about whats going on in the GSL right now. its like the truth is finally brought to light, even though some people will always be to biased and blind to see it.
It's nice to compare "Protoss whine" to "Zerg whine" some months ago. I'm not complaining about how bad Protoss seems to be lately (well it does bring boring 1:1:1 stompfest and more TvTs ;D). But there is a key difference:
Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA.
That's what bothers me. I've never considered Zerg the easiest race when I was seeing them losing a lot, and that all their players were retarded. It's still strange that despite Protoss being beaten by arguably very easily executable builds like 1/1/1 (way harder to defend, let's face it), we always get labeled as cheesy, dumb, slow, bad, and all that.
There must be something wrong design-wise there, right?
On August 11 2011 19:25 ZenithM wrote: It's nice to compare "Protoss whine" to "Zerg whine" some months ago. I'm not complaining about how bad Protoss seems to be lately (well it does bring boring 1:1:1 stompfest and more TvTs ;D). But there is a key difference:
Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA.
That's what bothers me. I've never considered Zerg the easiest race when I was seeing them losing a lot, and that all their players were retarded. It's still strange that despite Protoss being beaten by arguably very easily executable builds like 1/1/1 (way harder to defend, let's face it), we always get labeled as cheesy, dumb, slow, bad, and all that.
There must be something wrong design-wise there, right?
Also, Idra used to think Protoss was the strongest in sc1. There was never a time that protoss dominated or even did well compared to the other races. Protoss sucked in SC1 once the metagame evolved
Listening to Idra about balance advice is just idiotic. Zergs only use him as a defense mechanism when they lose. The problem is that he's not even the best foreigner any more, let alone one of the best players. So even that weak argument has no real logic behind it.
Im surprised that GSL Protoss don't do this more honestly. Some of these ultra greedy builds I'm seeing from Terrans in the GSL could be punished reallly hard by a cannon rush. Watching Terrans do 1 rax expands or CC first builds and get away with it just seems like a bad strategy. Often they seem to skip scouting until 15ish supply too. If you did a cannon rush on a map like Terminus or Taldirm Alter I think alot of terrans in GSL would auto lose because they went for a greedy build.
??????????????
Cannon rush vs T is pointless, cuz they can lift their buildings and fly away. And they also have the best anti-cannon unit in the game, the marauder. The reason you dont see it, is because its dumb.
Are Carriers really that bad? Im not nearly considered an good player, im only watching games & playing for fun (no buildorders etc.). So im just curious and its a serious Question. If you could handle the transition to Carriers, get them upgraded..
I know the "transition" itself is gonna cause some Problems but hey... maybe some warp prism harassement to keep the enemy defending (as u got starports anyway) in the mid game?
Ive never seen anyone doing more then 1 warp prism drop/warp in in a game, neither have i seen mass carriers included in an well thought strategy (only sometimes when toss got a huge lead anyway)...
Its not that i believe this would work, neither do i consider myself decent enough to discuss at an level where i understand all meta gaming involved.
Just wondering and asking decent players why we dont see this kind of play more often. Ive seen 4-5 carriers taking over games with upgraded weapons...
On August 11 2011 19:25 ZenithM wrote: Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA.
Is this your argument? Seriously? Like serious seriously? IdrA's complaining about every race he loses to except Zerg for obvious reasons.
I saw the exact same shit in BW and this time I'm gonna switch before it's too late. Blizzard won't change a fuck, they will ruin Protoss like they did in BW.
On August 11 2011 19:33 Scereye wrote: Are Carriers really that bad?
Yes.
On August 11 2011 19:33 Scereye wrote: I know the "transition" itself is gonna cause some Problems but hey... maybe some warp prism harassement to keep the enemy defending (as u got starports anyway) in the mid game?
Oh wow, really every non-protoss player comes up with the paper prism idea. This tactic has been explored since the beta. I can't believe someone really believes that Protoss player forgot about a unit in their play like Terran did with Helions? It's not exactly like Protoss has easy to use one composition units like the Marauder/Marine/Medivac ball and therefore focused on a single type...
On August 11 2011 19:33 Scereye wrote: Are Carriers really that bad? Im not nearly considered an good player, im only watching games & playing for fun (no buildorders etc.). So im just curious and its a serious Question. If you could handle the transition to Carriers, get them upgraded..
I know the "transition" itself is gonna cause some Problems but hey... maybe some warp prism harassement to keep the enemy defending (as u got starports anyway) in the mid game?
Ive never seen anyone doing more then 1 warp prism drop/warp in in a game, neither have i seen mass carriers included in an well thought strategy (only sometimes when toss got a huge lead anyway)...
Its not that i believe this would work, neither do i consider myself decent enough to discuss at an level where i understand all meta gaming involved.
Just wondering and asking decent players why we dont see this kind of play more often. Ive seen 4-5 carriers taking over games with upgraded weapons...
It's almost impossible to stay alive to get the carriers until 4+ bases. Other than that i guess they are pretty good.
On August 11 2011 19:25 ZenithM wrote: It's nice to compare "Protoss whine" to "Zerg whine" some months ago. I'm not complaining about how bad Protoss seems to be lately (well it does bring boring 1:1:1 stompfest and more TvTs ;D). But there is a key difference:
Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA.
That's what bothers me. I've never considered Zerg the easiest race when I was seeing them losing a lot, and that all their players were retarded. It's still strange that despite Protoss being beaten by arguably very easily executable builds like 1/1/1 (way harder to defend, let's face it), we always get labeled as cheesy, dumb, slow, bad, and all that.
There must be something wrong design-wise there, right?
Yep. The thing is, Greg is obviously to biased/narrow minded to see that its not the players that are cheesy/gimicky/in favor of doing coinflip builds, its just that protoss is designed to play out that way. we dont have a viable harass unit for taking out mineral lines fast (like banelings or hellions) and we cant really do multi pronged attacks because our units are weak in low numbers.
what protoss need is:
1. a viable unit for harassment, to utilize the warp prism 2. better access to some of our tech units, like high templars for example. it just doesnt make sense that its soo expensive to get and yet we are absolutley dependant on having it to counter Infestors. I think blizzard should have lowered the tech requirements/costs when they took out KA
On August 11 2011 19:33 Scereye wrote: Are Carriers really that bad? Im not nearly considered an good player, im only watching games & playing for fun (no buildorders etc.). So im just curious and its a serious Question. If you could handle the transition to Carriers, get them upgraded..
I know the "transition" itself is gonna cause some Problems but hey... maybe some warp prism harassement to keep the enemy defending (as u got starports anyway) in the mid game?
Ive never seen anyone doing more then 1 warp prism drop/warp in in a game, neither have i seen mass carriers included in an well thought strategy (only sometimes when toss got a huge lead anyway)...
Its not that i believe this would work, neither do i consider myself decent enough to discuss at an level where i understand all meta gaming involved.
Just wondering and asking decent players why we dont see this kind of play more often. Ive seen 4-5 carriers taking over games with upgraded weapons...
It's almost impossible to stay alive to get the carriers until 4+ bases. Other than that i guess they are pretty good.
Yeah i know, but the magic word is "almost". Did someone seriously ever try to focus only on this one thing? Making a gameplan JUST to get Carriers, nothing else, dont care about anything else.
On August 11 2011 19:25 ZenithM wrote: Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA.
Is this your argument? Seriously? Like serious seriously? IdrA's complaining about every race he loses to except Zerg for obvious reasons.
I saw the exact same shit in BW and this time I'm gonna switch before it's too late. Blizzard won't change a fuck, they will ruin Protoss like they did in BW.
Okay so apparently you didn't read my post except that sentence. I was just criticizing that same thing you called me out for. That people listen too much to IdrA even though he's maybe the most biased player ever.
I think that Blizzard should introduce 2 new races: "Terran (former Protoss)" and "Zerg (former Protoss)" to show the world how we dumb people would fare with "harder" races :D
On August 11 2011 19:33 Scereye wrote: Are Carriers really that bad? Im not nearly considered an good player, im only watching games & playing for fun (no buildorders etc.). So im just curious and its a serious Question. If you could handle the transition to Carriers, get them upgraded..
I know the "transition" itself is gonna cause some Problems but hey... maybe some warp prism harassement to keep the enemy defending (as u got starports anyway) in the mid game?
Ive never seen anyone doing more then 1 warp prism drop/warp in in a game, neither have i seen mass carriers included in an well thought strategy (only sometimes when toss got a huge lead anyway)...
Its not that i believe this would work, neither do i consider myself decent enough to discuss at an level where i understand all meta gaming involved.
Just wondering and asking decent players why we dont see this kind of play more often. Ive seen 4-5 carriers taking over games with upgraded weapons...
It's almost impossible to stay alive to get the carriers until 4+ bases. Other than that i guess they are pretty good.
Yeah i know, but the magic word is "almost". Did someone seriously ever try to focus only on this one thing? Making a gameplan JUST to get Carriers, nothing else, dont care about anything else.
Or am i just dreaming the viewers dream? :D
Point 1) warp prisms come from the robo not starport. 2) Marines and hydralisk or infestors pretty comman units against protoss all destroy carriers. The only thing i find them good against is mech or a very late game transiition against terran but thats when you have 4/5 bases.
PvZ : Warpgate timing delayed, spore crawler root time decreased and huge infestor buff. The bonus damage is like 30 percent? Its ridiculous. We used to see 160 food Colossus stalker void ray balls chew trough 200 food zerg armies. Now endgame zerg is insanely strong. We've also had a huge roach buff. Overall protoss strats have been figured out. Stargate after FFE for instance, or 6gate in all of its variations. Players like Nestea and Losira dont lose to Toss anymore. PvT: With the warpgate/void ray nerfs there is nothing to prevent terran from doing 1-1-1. There are so god dam many 1-1-1's. 1base and 2base, raven or no raven, cloak or no cloak. Maybe with the old void ray or the old warpgate timings protoss could punish half of them so at least you can exclude many variations of the 1-1-1 from the realm of possibilities. In a straight up MMMGV vs Armored Chargelots+Stalker+Colossus+Templar Protoss can hold its ground. But I rarely see Toss getting into the midgame even with the terran. TvZ. I dont know. Terran looks strong but I am not impressed by overall zerg play. But I think terran is gonna dominate for a little while.
I think Protoss needs to rethink how they play PvT and PvZ. Protoss just feels immobile, not able to harass in the midgame and most of all, not lean and mean. It used to be: make the bigger/better ball, shove it in your opponents face and win. Thats not possible anymore. This is partially because of changes in patches but also because Protoss has to adapt. There is a lot of room for improvement. Still I think people dont realize how much of a difference all the balance changes make. Motherships and Carriers are not the answer. Just like nydus worms were not the answer when 5rax reaper into marauder was still around.
On August 11 2011 19:33 Scereye wrote: Are Carriers really that bad? Im not nearly considered an good player, im only watching games & playing for fun (no buildorders etc.). So im just curious and its a serious Question. If you could handle the transition to Carriers, get them upgraded..
I know the "transition" itself is gonna cause some Problems but hey... maybe some warp prism harassement to keep the enemy defending (as u got starports anyway) in the mid game?
Ive never seen anyone doing more then 1 warp prism drop/warp in in a game, neither have i seen mass carriers included in an well thought strategy (only sometimes when toss got a huge lead anyway)...
Its not that i believe this would work, neither do i consider myself decent enough to discuss at an level where i understand all meta gaming involved.
Just wondering and asking decent players why we dont see this kind of play more often. Ive seen 4-5 carriers taking over games with upgraded weapons...
It's almost impossible to stay alive to get the carriers until 4+ bases. Other than that i guess they are pretty good.
Yeah i know, but the magic word is "almost". Did someone seriously ever try to focus only on this one thing? Making a gameplan JUST to get Carriers, nothing else, dont care about anything else.
Or am i just dreaming the viewers dream? :D
Look at it this way: in pvt when you go for fast colosuss, the tech is so expensive you leave a timing window in which terran can attack you and do a lot of damage because you only have 1 colo tops with no range, and his first few medivacs are popping. Teching to carriers is much slower and slightly more expensive, which makes that timing window even bigger and you will die to a bunch of 2base timings, so nah, i don't see say 2base carrier being "standard" someday, at least in pvt. I -think- pvz is kind of similar: teching to carriers forces you to play really passive and that means z can get maxed 14 minutes into the game and just 300 food push you. But then again im just a diamond scrub theorycrafting builds that i have never tried before
On August 11 2011 19:33 Scereye wrote: Are Carriers really that bad? Im not nearly considered an good player, im only watching games & playing for fun (no buildorders etc.). So im just curious and its a serious Question. If you could handle the transition to Carriers, get them upgraded..
I know the "transition" itself is gonna cause some Problems but hey... maybe some warp prism harassement to keep the enemy defending (as u got starports anyway) in the mid game?
Ive never seen anyone doing more then 1 warp prism drop/warp in in a game, neither have i seen mass carriers included in an well thought strategy (only sometimes when toss got a huge lead anyway)...
Its not that i believe this would work, neither do i consider myself decent enough to discuss at an level where i understand all meta gaming involved.
Just wondering and asking decent players why we dont see this kind of play more often. Ive seen 4-5 carriers taking over games with upgraded weapons...
It's almost impossible to stay alive to get the carriers until 4+ bases. Other than that i guess they are pretty good.
Yeah i know, but the magic word is "almost". Did someone seriously ever try to focus only on this one thing? Making a gameplan JUST to get Carriers, nothing else, dont care about anything else.
Or am i just dreaming the viewers dream? :D
I pulled it off once in a Diamond PvZ, I think he knew I was going air but was expecting carriers and he didn't respond. I did 1 base and sent my first 2 and won the game. The DPS of the carriers is fantastic, but its not really feasible. I tried the same exact thing vs my Master clan mate and he destroyed it. Carriers is ok, late game, and thats about it.
Back on topic. Protoss has a lot of issues right now and like someone way earlier in the thread said, we are kidding ourselves if we think some effin Protoss Messiah is gonna come along and change things. That being said I have no place to discuss balance and or a fix because I suck.
On August 11 2011 19:25 ZenithM wrote: Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA.
Is this your argument? Seriously? Like serious seriously? IdrA's complaining about every race he loses to except Zerg for obvious reasons.
I saw the exact same shit in BW and this time I'm gonna switch before it's too late. Blizzard won't change a fuck, they will ruin Protoss like they did in BW.
Okay so apparently you didn't read my post except that sentence. I was just criticizing that same thing you called me out for. That people listen too much to IdrA even though he's maybe the most biased player ever.
I think that Blizzard should introduce 2 new races: "Terran (former Protoss)" and "Zerg (former Protoss)" to show the world how we dumb people would fare with "harder" races :D
Yeah sorry about that, It's just that I am so raging at the moment and I'm sliglty pushed to change races here.
Don't mistake me, it is absolutely possible to invest time to get in Diamond, Master or even Grandmaster with Protoss and win tournaments but it is so incredible hard at the moment compared to other races. Last time we decided to wait for a fix by Blizzard, it never came, so I'm slightly concerned here.
Dustin Browder, he states explicitly that a Terran nerf will not occur, since it is not possible. So what other possibility do they have? Only a re-design which may happen in HotS or the Protoss addon.
On August 11 2011 15:40 DarkRise wrote: I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression.
I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe).
But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies.
Maybe?
Or they can all just cannon rush.
Zerg didn't come up with an answer, Infestors were buffed and Protoss was nerfed.
Yeah, but they started dropping and harassing with lings instead of just letting the Protoss max.
On August 11 2011 15:40 DarkRise wrote: I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression.
I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe).
But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies.
Maybe?
Or they can all just cannon rush.
Zerg didn't come up with an answer, Infestors were buffed and Protoss was nerfed.
Well a little bit has changed in zerg's play as usually you see them responding to a 1-3 gate expand with a super fast third, even before lair, which turns out to be really safe and wasn't done a few months ago. Also p tends to play all paranoid about roach-ling which certainly doesn't help. Other than that yes, fucking infestors changed everything.
Zerg came with answers to many Protoss builds but they were definitely helped by the protoss nerfs and the zerg buffs. The fast thirds before lair would not be as feasible with old warpgate timings/spore crawler, let alone with 3 range roaches. ZvP used to be: I can't let him take a third or I will get smashed by a 170 food army of death I cannot beat even with a 300 food push. Now that this is isn't the case anymore the matchup changed. Zerg can get into the lategame knowing that his 200 food army can stand up to Protoss' 200 food army.
On August 11 2011 19:25 ZenithM wrote: Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA.
Is this your argument? Seriously? Like serious seriously? IdrA's complaining about every race he loses to except Zerg for obvious reasons.
I saw the exact same shit in BW and this time I'm gonna switch before it's too late. Blizzard won't change a fuck, they will ruin Protoss like they did in BW.
Okay so apparently you didn't read my post except that sentence. I was just criticizing that same thing you called me out for. That people listen too much to IdrA even though he's maybe the most biased player ever.
I think that Blizzard should introduce 2 new races: "Terran (former Protoss)" and "Zerg (former Protoss)" to show the world how we dumb people would fare with "harder" races :D
Yeah sorry about that, It's just that I am so raging at the moment and I'm sliglty pushed to change races here.
Don't mistake me, it is absolutely possible to invest time to get in Diamond, Master or even Grandmaster with Protoss and win tournaments but it is so incredible hard at the moment compared to other races. Last time we decided to wait for a fix by Blizzard, it never came, so I'm slightly concerned here.
Dustin Browder, he states explicitly that a Terran nerf will not occur, since it is not possible. So what other possibility do they have? Only a re-design which may happen in HotS or the Protoss addon.
Oh yeah, I totally hear you. Obviously you can be so good at Protoss that you beat most people, even competitively. But it's not very fun anymore to play a race (even casually) that is about to go inexistent in the most important SC2 tournament.
I don't think that Blizzard will patch the game at this point. The only thing that is keeping me from switching race myself is that I would feel like giving up and being beaten by the game (I've played P since the beta because I liked watching it, not because somewhere along the road it supposedly became the easiest and whatnot). And who knows, they might tweak the race design a bit so that you don't feel as helpless at times.
On August 11 2011 17:23 Demonaz wrote: Protoss are basically where Zerg were two months ago when everyone was complaining that z are too weak and underpowered. Seems that most of the 'abusive' p strats have been figured out and along with the 4-gate nerf its made it harder for the moment. However I'm sure something will be figured out soon, c'mon protoss players, get to work!
Zerg didnt just "figure things out though". the recieved massive buffs to infestor and spore crawlers.
seriously, drop the idea that some genious is gonna come up with this magic new protoss playstyle that noone has ever thought about before. its not going to happen. there are plenty of smart protoss players who practice 8-10hours a day in a pro teamhouse, everyday. If there was something that could be done, they would have figured it out by now. the game isnt just 2 months old anymore.
In what games have the spore crawler change been a big factor? And your last sentance doesn't make sense since the protoss haven't struggled all the way since the game came out.
In every PvZ, where P goes for a Forge FE, and goes for air to deny 3rd.
As a protoss, i dont want the game to be patched yet...
Unless if in a few month we see that it's still "unbeatable" . And by month i dont mean weeks
About the weak gateway units subject, I'm fine with it but i would prefer the strong but retarded dragoons from bw than FF. But blizzard doesn't want it...I dont want stalkers to be flawless (like the marauder hum hum)
how people STILL don't see terran is a much better race than protoss after him is beyond me he didn't do SHIT as protoss he switched to terran and was code s instantly and almost won code a (against another terran who has always been playing terran no less)
this isn't even whine it's just stating facts. are you so much in denial that you don't even see simple shit as this? honestly.
and then there is other stuff like mc streaming a few practice games a while back and constistently losing to FUCKING _____INCA____ who was offracing terran.
honestly what basis do you even have left to argue?
On August 11 2011 19:33 Scereye wrote: Are Carriers really that bad? Im not nearly considered an good player, im only watching games & playing for fun (no buildorders etc.). So im just curious and its a serious Question. If you could handle the transition to Carriers, get them upgraded..
I know the "transition" itself is gonna cause some Problems but hey... maybe some warp prism harassementto keep the enemy defending (as u got starports anyway) in the mid game?
Ive never seen anyone doing more then 1 warp prism drop/warp in in a game, neither have i seen mass carriers included in an well thought strategy (only sometimes when toss got a huge lead anyway)...
Its not that i believe this would work, neither do i consider myself decent enough to discuss at an level where i understand all meta gaming involved.
Just wondering and asking decent players why we dont see this kind of play more often. Ive seen 4-5 carriers taking over games with upgraded weapons...
Me in this very thread Couldn't agree more with this. Can't stand all the excuses people make about why toss is doing bad, from 'use moar warp prisms' or 'toss isn't weak, it's just that every player who plays toss is bad' or 'toss aren't creative and innovative'. I don't think I need to say any more, this guys post summed it up.
And lol at the guy who thought fungal growth wasn't buffed, and that zergs just magically started using it of their own accord.
Warp prisms from starports? Hmm... Just to reiterate, in case somebody needed an example shoved in their face.
Man there are dozens of threads on this already and it spills over to all the other threads as well, can you at least keep all of this in one so that the rest of us can try to actively avoid all this "meaningfull discussions about 'the state' (because nobody wants to say the word balance but it's still the same thing) of Protoss"?
TL should just get a balance "discussion" (lol) forum section and keep the rest of the place clean.
warp prisms are so bad people don't even know what building you need to make them
idra obviously is talking shit and shouldn't be taken seriously. i even remember him saying broodlords are bad a while ago. it's basically like artosis saying stalkers are too good or something. just bullshit that no one should take seriously.
protoss hasn't done anything ever except mc who was miles ahead of the metagame at the time. protoss play has evolved a lot since but still can't beat the shit it was supposed to beat. unless you honestly believe that all protoss players are somehow for some metaphysical reason worse than those of other races (read: you're in massive denial) there is no going around the FACT that protoss isn't a race that you should play if you want to win tournaments.
you ask me? mc (and everyone else who still plays protoss) should switch races. but if you ask me i would also tell you that you probably shouldn't pick mvp in your group.
Protoss is not weak in our level of play, but I love to watch the PvZ and PvT matchup and is obvious that Protosses playing in the highest level are playing with a shit race that can't win a straight up game. If I did not like to watch pro players, I would not complain.
So even if there was Infestor buff, why then do Nestea and Losira, the best 2 zergs in the world v P, not use infestors on a regular basis and still continue to beat most protoss they play. Zergs adapted to Protoss, time for Protoss to adapt.
As for TvP, its is all very balanced except for tank marine banshee all in, as much i love doing that build its most likely imbalanced. This sint to say what MVP did against MC is imbalanced as he did a one rax expo into playing Siege tanks. There was a style quite a few GSLs ago where Terrans were palying a more Marine tank against protoss. I remember MVP and MarineKing doing it abit. May have been around the world championships
On August 11 2011 16:53 Gfox wrote: I wish people would stop using random stats taken out of thin air to suggest that a race is bad. There are many more factors that need to be accounted. Imagine all the terrans suddenly came down with smallpox or something and were all out of the tournament. Then I could make a thread saying that Terran isnt doing well.... stats are fucking meaningless....
They arent random stats from thin air. They are not meaningless statistics. We have 11 pages of talk/interpretation. And if all Terran players had smallpox we would not make a Terran is weak whine thread. But that is not the case. Protoss is being raped at the moment.
Guys dont quote Thorzain vs Genius. Worst 1-1-1 ive ever seen.
On August 11 2011 20:36 SnowyPsilocybin wrote: So even if there was Infestor buff, why then do Nestea and Losira, the best 2 zergs in the world v P, not use infestors on a regular basis and still continue to beat most protoss they play. Zergs adapted to Protoss, time for Protoss to adapt.
As for TvP, its is all very balanced except for tank marine banshee all in, as much i love doing that build its most likely imbalanced. This sint to say what MVP did against MC is imbalanced as he did a one rax expo into playing Siege tanks. There was a style quite a few GSLs ago where Terrans were palying a more Marine tank against protoss. I remember MVP and MarineKing doing it abit. May have been around the world championships
It's actually a lot more complicated than that, the infestor buff makes the whole "turtle up til deathball" style almost completely not-viable, and since most protoss play revolves around huge 2base timings, you don't see Nestea and Losira need to use infestors, as most of the times they're simply defending an all-in, then winning.
On August 11 2011 20:10 hi im new wrote: 1 word: Byun
how people STILL don't see terran is a much better race than protoss after him is beyond me he didn't do SHIT as protoss he switched to terran and was code s instantly and almost won code a (against another terran who has always been playing terran no less)
this isn't even whine it's just stating facts. are you so much in denial that you don't even see simple shit as this? honestly.
and then there is other stuff like mc streaming a few practice games a while back and constistently losing to FUCKING _____INCA____ who was offracing terran.
honestly what basis do you even have left to argue?
think about it.
lol I knew about byun switching but not about InCa offracing good one.
The Infestor buff is overstated. The way top Zergs (not Catz and Destiny) use Infestors today (when they do use them, which is not the case most of the time anyway) would have worked before the buff almost as good as it does now.
It's not Infestors that solved ZvP anyway which was the source of most of the whining.
On August 11 2011 20:47 RealQ wrote: Genius just held a 1/1/1 . The end of the world is near.
I said it in the LR thread, I'll say it here. Thorzain definitely purposely fucked that build up just so Blizz wouldn't nerf 1/1/1 ;D
My guess is, he did it because he wanted to give Naniwa a chance to play. Either that, or nerves finally got to him. I mean, he did this build in multiple high-profile games successfuly. He's like 2-0 with it against MC, and he also beat Naniwa with it in TSL3 finals, so I'm pretty sure he knows how to do it properly.
To me it's not an issue of who's winning and who's losing more as the distribution of races in the GSL. It's overwhelmingly Terran and I think that speaks volumes about that race over the other two. Terran have the greatest diversity in harassment and builds while having the most minimal of repercussions when they fail compared to Protoss/Zerg. Part of that in my opinion is due to the effectiveness of medivacs but not a balance post right? Protoss' tech trees are pretty strongly defined meaning it's difficult to choose one path and then switch to another. I think that pros have been able to identify a Protoss' build early on and exploit that by knowing what he'll be doing 5 minutes down the line and countering that.
On August 11 2011 23:46 jhsu98 wrote: To me it's not an issue of who's winning and who's losing more as the distribution of races in the GSL. It's overwhelmingly Terran and I think that speaks volumes about that race over the other two. Terran have the greatest diversity in harassment and builds while having the most minimal of repercussions when they fail compared to Protoss/Zerg. Part of that in my opinion is due to the effectiveness of medivacs but not a balance post right? Protoss' tech trees are pretty strongly defined meaning it's difficult to choose one path and then switch to another. I think that pros have been able to identify a Protoss' build early on and exploit that by knowing what he'll be doing 5 minutes down the line and countering that.
I think people have to look more at the actual players in the GSL, and not the number before they make balance assumptions. When you look at it, there are the good protosses (MC, Puzzle, HuK), the cheesy/extremely risky (Hongun, Alicia, Tassadar), and the rest are quite frankly, not that good (sangho, genius, tester). However, when you look at terran, theres the established terrans (Mvp, bomber, nada, byun, mma, etc), and the upcoming terrans (Noblesse, SC, Happy, Nuclear, ganzi, rying, etc). All the terrans that have gotten here through allins/cheeses (the 1/1/1 allin is in only 1 matchup and few do it everygame) are out. There is simply a lot more better terrans than there is protoss.
On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote: Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least.
When it is your job to be a progamer I'm sure you would see this differently. I agree that there should be time for the game to balance out but it seems hypocritical when zerg players cried for months and got their units buffed and protoss got nerfed constantly; it doesn't seem fair now that people should say protoss should suffer.
It's not about suffering, its about figuring it out.
All this protoss whine just reminds me of the zerg whine when they couldn't beat deathballs and said there was no solution and kept a-moving roach hydra into cols.
Contrary to popular (zerg?) belief, zergs started winning a lot more, and the win rate was increasing steadily since january, when they learned to play better, the infestor buff didn't matter much at all vs deathballs as people think, of course win rates for zerg kept growing after infestor buff for a while too, however that wasn't.
On August 11 2011 17:23 zeru wrote: Like i always say when there's balance whine because 1 race isnt doing well:
I hope blizzard dont touch anything for 4-5 months at least.
i dont think i have ever seen a single post from you that didnt make me facepalm.
Seriously, the fact that you just judge this situation as "some balance whine" instead of actually looking into it, analazing the situation and decide wheter you think it might actually be op or not makes wonder if you completley lack the ability of critical thinking. instead you seem to be stuck with some kind of delusion that any game made by blizzard is always perfectly balanced and mustnt be questioned, no matter what people think and what statistics and results show. I can tell you, blizzards balance team has screwed up severely before. Look at Arena PvP in wow for proof of that. it was pretty much the laughing stock of ESPORTS
Race win rate shifts are extremely common. If it goes on for too long an there actually isnt anything that can be done about it, blizzard will fix it.
Toss should just play better huh? What do you do against a Roach, Broodlord, Fungal composition besides doing timing pushes early on? Voidrays, stalkers, high templar, immortals, collossi are often used against such an army and it is often disastrous for the toss even when the zerg's only concern is to control infestors (which you don't need to do apparently if you make 40 like destiny and a move that as well).
On August 11 2011 20:47 RealQ wrote: Genius just held a 1/1/1 . The end of the world is near.
I said it in the LR thread, I'll say it here. Thorzain definitely purposely fucked that build up just so Blizz wouldn't nerf 1/1/1 ;D
My guess is, he did it because he wanted to give Naniwa a chance to play. Either that, or nerves finally got to him. I mean, he did this build in multiple high-profile games successfuly. He's like 2-0 with it against MC, and he also beat Naniwa with it in TSL3 finals, so I'm pretty sure he knows how to do it properly.
He did it because he didn't know a fuck about Belshir'Beach, as simple as that. But he probably didn't fuck up the build on purpose, it's just that if that build was that powerful and easy some of the best microers (MMA & ThorZain) would have won their games easy...
The argument that Terran players are simply better than Protoss players has to stop. The reason it seems that way is because if the Terran players have more / better tools at their disposal, it will compliment the player well. In your own example you named Byun, who is a former Protoss player and as Protoss he didn't do well at all, then he switched to Terran and proceeded to produce results. The 3 Protoss players that you named (with emphasis on MC and Huk) are not merely 'good Protoss', but they are amazing players, and that is the biggest factor why they have been able to produce the results that they have so far. + Show Spoiler +
I have no doubt that if MC was playing any other race he wouldn't be going to the up and down matches, and quite frankly I am worried for Huk as well.
On August 11 2011 23:46 jhsu98 wrote: To me it's not an issue of who's winning and who's losing more as the distribution of races in the GSL. It's overwhelmingly Terran and I think that speaks volumes about that race over the other two. Terran have the greatest diversity in harassment and builds while having the most minimal of repercussions when they fail compared to Protoss/Zerg. Part of that in my opinion is due to the effectiveness of medivacs but not a balance post right? Protoss' tech trees are pretty strongly defined meaning it's difficult to choose one path and then switch to another. I think that pros have been able to identify a Protoss' build early on and exploit that by knowing what he'll be doing 5 minutes down the line and countering that.
I think people have to look more at the actual players in the GSL, and not the number before they make balance assumptions. When you look at it, there are the good protosses (MC, Puzzle, HuK), the cheesy/extremely risky (Hongun, Alicia, Tassadar), and the rest are quite frankly, not that good (sangho, genius, tester). However, when you look at terran, theres the established terrans (Mvp, bomber, nada, byun, mma, etc), and the upcoming terrans (Noblesse, SC, Happy, Nuclear, ganzi, rying, etc). All the terrans that have gotten here through allins/cheeses (the 1/1/1 allin is in only 1 matchup and few do it everygame) are out. There is simply a lot more better terrans than there is protoss.
Yeah man, I wish Protoss had truly good players like Byun, that would make the race much more successful for sure!
The "upcoming Terran" situation is actually kind of funny. Since most of Code A and Code S are Terran, you can be a pretty successful player just by having a good TvT, and all-ining Protoss every game. That's practically how the July Up/Down matches went. To be more specific, the last time Noblesse tried to play straight up against Protoss, he got destroyed by Tassadar. He's had way more success since he started all-ining every game, even took out MC. Similarly, Happy got absolutely smashed 3-0 by Puzzle while trying to cheese and do weird builds in general. Ganzi qualified for Code A by doing the 1/1/1 every game vs Protoss.
I'm expecting more well-rounded Terrans to fall out of Code S in favor of TvT specialists. It already happened to sC and MKP. I guess Nestea will be happy, more easy GSL wins for him.
On August 11 2011 20:47 RealQ wrote: Genius just held a 1/1/1 . The end of the world is near.
I said it in the LR thread, I'll say it here. Thorzain definitely purposely fucked that build up just so Blizz wouldn't nerf 1/1/1 ;D
My guess is, he did it because he wanted to give Naniwa a chance to play. Either that, or nerves finally got to him. I mean, he did this build in multiple high-profile games successfuly. He's like 2-0 with it against MC, and he also beat Naniwa with it in TSL3 finals, so I'm pretty sure he knows how to do it properly.
He did it because he didn't know a fuck about Belshir'Beach, as simple as that. But he probably didn't fuck up the build on purpose, it's just that if that build was that powerful and easy some of the best microers (MMA & ThorZain) would have won their games easy...
I know he didn't do it on purpose, that was just a joke. He did fuck it up pretty badly though. He build the Raven too late and didn't have enough energy for PDD as he arrived at the Protoss base. He didn't Siege his Tanks, and let them shoot away at Genius' probes. And he also had Banshees floating directly over Stalkers.
I mean, you can argue about "best microers" all you want, but just watch the games. MMA failed soo hard with this build, and almost won anyway. He was kind of playing bad in general that day, and went like 0-4 I believe, shit happens.
On August 12 2011 00:04 Not_That wrote: The argument that Terran players are simply better than Protoss players has to stop. The reason it seems that way is because if the Terran players have more / better tools at their disposal, it will compliment the player well. In your own example you named Byun, who is a former Protoss player and as Protoss he didn't do well at all, then he switched to Terran and proceeded to produce results. The 3 Protoss players that you named (with emphasis on MC and Huk) are not merely 'good Protoss', but they are amazing players, and that is the biggest factor why they have been able to produce the results that they have so far. + Show Spoiler +
I have no doubt that if MC was playing any other race he wouldn't be going to the up and down matches, and quite frankly I am worried for Huk as well.
Byun played protoss as Bleach in season1, everybody was terrible back then. By now, Byun has played a lot more terran than he has protoss. All I'm saying is that there's really only 3 "amazing" protosses, while theres tons more for terrans. Are you really going to tell me that Alicia, Hongun, Tassadar, Inca, and Sangho are better skill-wise than all the other names that I mentioned. Protoss doesn't have any new blood, it has pretty much stagnated, while solid terrans with great mechanics are coming out every month it seems.
my 2 cents on protoss in general is protoss is by far the weakest race in the game now a days. Zerg has infestors need i say more? Terran, well terran has everything in the game so yah. helions, marines , mards, ghosts, mules, its really a joke. protoss cant do shit if they get emped. OH we have HT and sentries we might win if we micro perfectly!!! :D oh wait terran just got a no skill unit and just emped everything now i loose b.c sentries have no nothing same with HT. oh well. I for see a upcoming patch to buff protoss and or nerf the other 2 races in someway. because right now being a protoss player is being a 12 year old downy kid in the MLB. aka you cant do anything. their my 2cents.
On August 12 2011 00:18 fARLEY wrote: my 2 cents on protoss in general is protoss is by far the weakest race in the game now a days. Zerg has infestors need i say more? Terran, well terran has everything in the game so yah. helions, marines , mards, ghosts, mules, its really a joke. protoss cant do shit if they get emped. OH we have HT and sentries we might win if we micro perfectly!!! :D oh wait terran just got a no skill unit and just emped everything now i loose b.c sentries have no nothing same with HT. oh well. I for see a upcoming patch to buff protoss and or nerf the other 2 races in someway. because right now being a protoss player is being a 12 year old downy kid in the MLB. aka you cant do anything. their my 2cents.
There are 2 things to say for me: 1: Protoss isnt Played alot in Korea. The far most played races are Terra and Zerg and so there are more good Terra and Zerg players than toss players 2: Protoss needs to play more diffrent. In my opinion there are just a few styles which were played a long time. Which i mean by that is the 4gate and the Big Lategame attack. During these times Terran and especially Zerg players used to try a lot and different things(for example the nogas Zergstyle by Spanishiwa, the Infestorstyle by Destiny and the mech style by T against P(which is now more uncomman again)) whereas toss only played the 2 big styles. Just some month ago some players started to do their own thing, like Air opening and Blink stalker harassment while terran and zerg were doing that for a long time. And Imo Blink and Archons are examples for things which are being discovered as being good.
So my main point is that Toss needs to discover their race more, while not playing their standart thing(more harassment,more crazy ideas) and the worst thing now would be a Patch. Blizzard should let the patches stay for quite some time to see if there are no other option than fixing the race. (This is just MY opinion)
LOL THIS THREAD Protoss players are like "Its my turn to bitch!"
SHUT THE FUCK UP SERIOUSLY
If you want to discuss something, discuss new strategies in the strategy forum. It is worthless to manipulate statistics to soothe your ego. PvP Code A finals last season FOR FUCKS SAKES!
On August 12 2011 00:04 Not_That wrote: The argument that Terran players are simply better than Protoss players has to stop. The reason it seems that way is because if the Terran players have more / better tools at their disposal, it will compliment the player well. In your own example you named Byun, who is a former Protoss player and as Protoss he didn't do well at all, then he switched to Terran and proceeded to produce results. The 3 Protoss players that you named (with emphasis on MC and Huk) are not merely 'good Protoss', but they are amazing players, and that is the biggest factor why they have been able to produce the results that they have so far. + Show Spoiler +
I have no doubt that if MC was playing any other race he wouldn't be going to the up and down matches, and quite frankly I am worried for Huk as well.
Byun played protoss as Bleach in season1, everybody was terrible back then. By now, Byun has played a lot more terran than he has protoss. All I'm saying is that there's really only 3 "amazing" protosses, while theres tons more for terrans. Are you really going to tell me that Alicia, Hongun, Tassadar, Inca, and Sangho are better skill-wise than all the other names that I mentioned. Protoss doesn't have any new blood, it has pretty much stagnated, while solid terrans with great mechanics are coming out every month it seems.
Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead. The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all.
On August 12 2011 00:25 Techno wrote: LOL THIS THREAD Protoss players are like "Its my turn to bitch!"
SHUT THE FUCK UP SERIOUSLY
If you want to discuss something, discuss new strategies in the strategy forum. It is worthless to manipulate statistics to soothe your ego. PvP Code A finals last season FOR FUCKS SAKES!
Well.. whenever people said "zomg NesTea = 3x GSLs, zerg = 4 GSLs + LosirA finalist" then that didn't count for some reason, so why should a PvP Code A final be even close to meaning something?
Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually. And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us After the MC match. Thats not happening without a reason
This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply.
On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote: Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it.
The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all.
Protoss win championships.
My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't.
On August 11 2011 23:13 Raine wrote: This post is going to look very silly when JYP wins code A and Huk wins Code S
Not really. FD and Nestea winning the first 2 Open Seasons still didn't change the fact that the Zerg race were really suffering at the start.
The way I see it nowadays, I REALLY like the new shift into Charglot/Archon. Back it with a few Immortals would make a pretty nasty army. Add that to a few warp prisms with HTs for storm harass, should be interesting.
End of the day, Toss don't have that many players at the high level, so innovation is lacking. Puzzle seems hopeful, and Inca when he's not making mistakes is bloody clever. If we see new players, we'll hopefully see innovative play
On August 12 2011 00:25 Techno wrote: LOL THIS THREAD Protoss players are like "Its my turn to bitch!"
SHUT THE FUCK UP SERIOUSLY
If you want to discuss something, discuss new strategies in the strategy forum. It is worthless to manipulate statistics to soothe your ego. PvP Code A finals last season FOR FUCKS SAKES!
Well.. whenever people said "zomg NesTea = 3x GSLs, zerg = 4 GSLs + LosirA finalist" then that didn't count for some reason, so why should a PvP Code A final be even close to meaning something?
What in the fuck is this response? I don't even...... it doesnt really....... ZOMG! Your saying that "well I saw some Zerg players bitching about how zerg sucks and they said that NesTea doesnt matter so IMMA USE THAT ARGUMENT HERE"
On August 11 2011 14:48 MeLo wrote: I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units.
It has nothing to do with the KA removal. Its the fact that Terrans believe that they only have about 20 minutes to win the game otherwise Protoss becomes way to efficient. So a lot of the games come down to 1 base allins 2 base timing pushes or 3 base tempo play.
If you watch MVP vs CreatorPrime and bomber vs Killer in the GSL Supertournament, you will see that even though they were far ahead it took both of them about 40 minutes to end their final game.
Right now its just a meta game shift. Terrans were complaining for a long time about Protoss, will change their play style and adapt.
3-19 vs korean terran isn't just a metagame shift. Every variation of this has stomped every protoss variation of defending it. Tassadar went into that game knowing his opponent would 1-1-1. He countered it. He lost. What other all in can you say this about?
I can say it about 4gate, 4gate warp prism, 3 gate robo blink, 1 base colossus, baneling bust and I'm sure there are others
On August 11 2011 14:48 MeLo wrote: I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units.
It has nothing to do with the KA removal. Its the fact that Terrans believe that they only have about 20 minutes to win the game otherwise Protoss becomes way to efficient. So a lot of the games come down to 1 base allins 2 base timing pushes or 3 base tempo play.
If you watch MVP vs CreatorPrime and bomber vs Killer in the GSL Supertournament, you will see that even though they were far ahead it took both of them about 40 minutes to end their final game.
Right now its just a meta game shift. Terrans were complaining for a long time about Protoss, will change their play style and adapt.
3-19 vs korean terran isn't just a metagame shift. Every variation of this has stomped every protoss variation of defending it. Tassadar went into that game knowing his opponent would 1-1-1. He countered it. He lost. What other all in can you say this about?
I can say it about 4gate, 4gate warp prism, 3 gate robo blink, 1 base colossus, baneling bust and I'm sure there are others
Blue flame hellions are pretty good. Void ray all ins are epic.
I think it's definitely a combination of a swift metagame shift and the top tier Korean protosses are simply noticeably worse players (on average) than their zerg and terran counterparts. Obviously MC is a top class player and I would rate him amongst the best in the world, but beyond that I can't help but feel the likes of Alicia, Trickster, Sangho etc are just a step below that top tier. If you compare the best protoss have to offer in comparison with the other two races, I feel that the toss talent pool is far less deep in the GSL. The protoss struggles in Korea certainly aren't a recent trend, and I really think that the skill level of the players is the key factor.
All this is compounded by the most recent shift in the metagame where ZvP has been pretty thoroughly worked out, hence protoss needs to change the way they play. Of course the TvP situation is pretty well known at the moment, with pretty much every toss being completely clueless and/or ignorant into how to play vs the 1/1/1 build in particular. It's up to someone to develop a new way to play the matchups.
protoss always do risky playing because they can make units in 5 seconds. but reasonablely they should make more how do you expect 20 supply army do well against 25?(one based terran has higher supply no doubted)
maybe sometimes ppl can hold the pushes.
but as players are improving... the protoss can't play the old school style anymore.
User was not warned for this post
Btw Protoss President 's 2 Championship
2010 Open 3 Defeated OdinMvp, Hyperdub, MarineKing(who does well using marines only that time, recently fell to code A), Jinro, Rain(considered as who only does cheese.). Alongside with Jinro defeated PoltPrime(Polt was busy with his studies and not in a good condiction).
2011 GSL March Placed in Group A with Mvp, July and teammate Hyperdub, anyway he did not play a match against Mvp. And a terran switched to protoss lately last year Byun was his terran opponent. Later 2 PvP against Hongun & San made it to final against July again. Another notable thing is, 1.30 patch applied in GSTL Feb, stim research with 30 more seconds in-game time. Also, new and bigger map introduced in GSL.
GSL May After 2 matches against Polt who has had 100% winning rate against the protoss president also the largest winning rate against protoss, he was knocked out at Ro32.
Not talking about balance, but exactly MC is not a god as you expected. Stats show he is not. Good luck, MC. I hope you are placed in Up and down matches with Alicia.
On August 11 2011 14:48 MeLo wrote: I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units.
It has nothing to do with the KA removal. Its the fact that Terrans believe that they only have about 20 minutes to win the game otherwise Protoss becomes way to efficient. So a lot of the games come down to 1 base allins 2 base timing pushes or 3 base tempo play.
If you watch MVP vs CreatorPrime and bomber vs Killer in the GSL Supertournament, you will see that even though they were far ahead it took both of them about 40 minutes to end their final game.
Right now its just a meta game shift. Terrans were complaining for a long time about Protoss, will change their play style and adapt.
3-19 vs korean terran isn't just a metagame shift. Every variation of this has stomped every protoss variation of defending it. Tassadar went into that game knowing his opponent would 1-1-1. He countered it. He lost. What other all in can you say this about?
I can say it about 4gate, 4gate warp prism, 3 gate robo blink, 1 base colossus, baneling bust and I'm sure there are others
No you can't. Not in pro play. You couldn't be like "I'm going to 4 gate you" "I'm going to baneling bust" play get hardcountered and still win. These all ins have clear counters that can be stopped with scouting. No protoss player has any idea what the fuck to do against it, even if you know its coming at the start of the game. 4 gate? Spines/bunkers/def 4 gate. Baneling bust? Throw up bunkers and have a tank out. 1/1/1? ???????
On August 12 2011 00:25 Techno wrote: LOL THIS THREAD Protoss players are like "Its my turn to bitch!"
SHUT THE FUCK UP SERIOUSLY
If you want to discuss something, discuss new strategies in the strategy forum. It is worthless to manipulate statistics to soothe your ego. PvP Code A finals last season FOR FUCKS SAKES!
Well.. whenever people said "zomg NesTea = 3x GSLs, zerg = 4 GSLs + LosirA finalist" then that didn't count for some reason, so why should a PvP Code A final be even close to meaning something?
What in the fuck is this response? I don't even...... it doesnt really....... ZOMG! Your saying that "well I saw some Zerg players bitching about how zerg sucks and they said that NesTea doesnt matter so IMMA USE THAT ARGUMENT HERE"
PROTOSS YOU ARE KILLING ALL YOUR STREEET CRED
Are you daft as shit or what? A lot of the time when zergs bitched about balance, people would respond with "olOLoLoL Z > GSL", however the zerg players who kept on bitching said that mentioned fact was irrelevant. Now protoss players are bitching about balance ("having a hard time yada-yada-yada", however you want to phrase it), and you dropped in with a "olOLoLoL P > Code A"..
.. do you still not see how that response made sense?
On August 11 2011 19:25 ZenithM wrote: It's nice to compare "Protoss whine" to "Zerg whine" some months ago. I'm not complaining about how bad Protoss seems to be lately (well it does bring boring 1:1:1 stompfest and more TvTs ;D). But there is a key difference:
Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA.
That's what bothers me. I've never considered Zerg the easiest race when I was seeing them losing a lot, and that all their players were retarded. It's still strange that despite Protoss being beaten by arguably very easily executable builds like 1/1/1 (way harder to defend, let's face it), we always get labeled as cheesy, dumb, slow, bad, and all that.
There must be something wrong design-wise there, right?
Yep. The thing is, Greg is obviously to biased/narrow minded to see that its not the players that are cheesy/gimicky/in favor of doing coinflip builds, its just that protoss is designed to play out that way. we dont have a viable harass unit for taking out mineral lines fast (like banelings or hellions) and we cant really do multi pronged attacks because our units are weak in low numbers.
what protoss need is:
1. a viable unit for harassment, to utilize the warp prism 2. better access to some of our tech units, like high templars for example. it just doesnt make sense that its soo expensive to get and yet we are absolutley dependant on having it to counter Infestors. I think blizzard should have lowered the tech requirements/costs when they took out KA
DTs, HTs, Sentries, or just zealots, are all completely viable harass units, maybe not as cost effective as hellions or infestors etc. but protoss units cost more in general anyway, what do you expect... Saying protoss doesn't have a unit for taking out mineral lines fast is just ridiculous. They do, it's just you never see protoss players using them because they are obsessed with massing a ball of doom and splitting off units is an alien concept to most protoss, except for defending drops
Do you really want something that can harass quickly, long build time, plenty of gas and dies quickly? Have reapers if you want them, majority of Terran players wouldn't notice they were gone
I base my response not on my own play (I'm only plat) but on what I've observed in the professional scene. I think this is just an effect of the game's ongoing maturation and evolution. For so long, other races, especially Zerg, didn't know how to deal with common Protoss strategies. Because of that, those Protoss strategies (the death ball, etc.) became even more common. Now, however, the other races are beginning to learn how to deal with those things, and since Protoss was having success with the status quo for so long, they're having a little difficulty adjusting. I can't say for certain, but I would say I'm 90% sure this is a temporary thing. Protoss will eventually learn how to deal with the new strategies facing them, and things will even out.
On August 12 2011 00:52 Huggerz wrote: DTs, HTs, Sentries, or just zealots, are all completely viable harass units, maybe not as cost effective as hellions or infestors etc. but protoss units cost more in general anyway, what do you expect... Saying protoss doesn't have a unit for taking out mineral lines fast is just ridiculous. They do, it's just you never see protoss players using them because they are obsessed with massing a ball of doom and splitting off units is an alien concept to most protoss, except for defending drops
There's a reason to why it's an "alien concept" to most protoss... it's because protoss units suck when they are split up compared to when zerg and terran units are split up...
Protoss is fine as it is. It's just they haven't figured out how to pull out another "dominating" meta-game trend give it time and the game will evolve with new timings and new maps, eventually you will notice the game fluctuates too much to pinpoint which race is weak
On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote: Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually. And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us After the MC match. Thats not happening without a reason
Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss.
On August 11 2011 14:48 MeLo wrote: I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units.
It has nothing to do with the KA removal. Its the fact that Terrans believe that they only have about 20 minutes to win the game otherwise Protoss becomes way to efficient. So a lot of the games come down to 1 base allins 2 base timing pushes or 3 base tempo play.
If you watch MVP vs CreatorPrime and bomber vs Killer in the GSL Supertournament, you will see that even though they were far ahead it took both of them about 40 minutes to end their final game.
Right now its just a meta game shift. Terrans were complaining for a long time about Protoss, will change their play style and adapt.
3-19 vs korean terran isn't just a metagame shift. Every variation of this has stomped every protoss variation of defending it. Tassadar went into that game knowing his opponent would 1-1-1. He countered it. He lost. What other all in can you say this about?
I can say it about 4gate, 4gate warp prism, 3 gate robo blink, 1 base colossus, baneling bust and I'm sure there are others
No you can't. Not in pro play. You couldn't be like "I'm going to 4 gate you" "I'm going to baneling bust" play get hardcountered and still win. These all ins have clear counters that can be stopped with scouting. No protoss player has any idea what the fuck to do against it, even if you know its coming at the start of the game. 4 gate? Spines/bunkers/def 4 gate. Baneling bust? Throw up bunkers and have a tank out. 1/1/1? ???????
When do pros ever tell their opponents what they are doing or willingly let them know at all? If everyone knew what their opponent was doing of course they would rarely lose... Pros still lose to stuff like baneling busts, 1 base blink etc. even when they scout the possiblity of it same as 1-1-1... 1-1-1 build is just way ahead of Protoss defence of it, it is not unbeatable. No one seems to consider that many Terran players are just straight better than Protoss players for various reasons. I don't know why you're asking anyone in this thread for a way to deal with it, at best you will probably find a couple of Masters and the rest probably lower leagues
On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote: Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually. And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us After the MC match. Thats not happening without a reason
Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss.
Then he goes into Ro8, face a Terran and lose 2 games to the 1-1-1 all in.
On August 12 2011 00:52 Huggerz wrote: DTs, HTs, Sentries, or just zealots, are all completely viable harass units, maybe not as cost effective as hellions or infestors etc. but protoss units cost more in general anyway, what do you expect... Saying protoss doesn't have a unit for taking out mineral lines fast is just ridiculous. They do, it's just you never see protoss players using them because they are obsessed with massing a ball of doom and splitting off units is an alien concept to most protoss, except for defending drops
There's a reason to why it's an "alien concept" to most protoss... it's because protoss units suck when they are split up compared to when zerg and terran units are split up...
Thanks for that in depth analysis, you've clearly thought about it extensively
Sorry that I didnt format this post correctly I am new here and I am not very familiar with the tools which are at my disposal.... read the whole thread, so i think i am allowed to post something. Honestly this thread made me rage, and i am quite biased, because i play protoss. However I will try to analyse the situation a bit. First of all, I think the game has evolved so much since beta, that previous results are not saying anything, only games of the recent metagame shift should be considered. To the point of terrans and zergs playing better than their protoss counterparts I say, why do you think most people play terran or zerg instead of protoss? Now I will talk about the situation of pvz, in my opinion its now heavily in favour of zerg. The only way I am winning now is 1 gate exe into 3 gate pressure with chronoboost to punish early thirds into 7 gate +2 blink stalker. Either I kill my opponent before he gets infestors or I will have to heavily outplay him. Infestors: have great granted dps counter blink the greatest strength in pvz for protoss render outmicroing baneling drops useless kill sentrys so quickly, another strength of protoss gone neural parasite high powering units, although you can try to kill the channeling infestor, but that leaves more effort on your part than on zergs infested terrans have great dps and can only be countered by splash who is needed to kill the zergs army blizzard designed one real counter to this unit: the high templar the problem is, feedback has the same range than neural or fungal so in order to kill the infestor before casting the templar has to stand right before your army leaving it vulnerable to pick offs. stargate play was strong but with the recent spore crawler buff it has become way easier to deal with, its no longer viable to stop a greedy zerg Now to the situation in pvt: There is not a great imbalance in pvt midgame, however ghost are super strong against anything protoss can throw at terran, thats a fact. But I feel that the new chargelot+ archon style is very good, until terrans learn to incorporate more marines and ghosts and less marauders into their play. the 1/1/1 push is undoubtedly imbalanced, it is so hard to hold, and btw i have held 1/1/1 pushes but just barely if my opponents had focus fired my immortals it would be gg. So on high level play it is near unstoppable, because high level player will focus fire These are my thoughts on that matter Feel free to comment or quote
On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote: Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually. And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us After the MC match. Thats not happening without a reason
Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss.
I didn't see the games but I'm pretty sure the 2 games DRG lost he 6 pooled once and took a risky gold base in the other, and I'm pretty sure that's not the way you're supposed to play zerg vs protoss
On August 12 2011 00:52 Huggerz wrote: DTs, HTs, Sentries, or just zealots, are all completely viable harass units, maybe not as cost effective as hellions or infestors etc. but protoss units cost more in general anyway, what do you expect... Saying protoss doesn't have a unit for taking out mineral lines fast is just ridiculous. They do, it's just you never see protoss players using them because they are obsessed with massing a ball of doom and splitting off units is an alien concept to most protoss, except for defending drops
There's a reason to why it's an "alien concept" to most protoss... it's because protoss units suck when they are split up compared to when zerg and terran units are split up...
Thanks for that in depth analysis, you've clearly thought about it extensively
Yet he remains more correct than you.
You obviously don't play Protoss if you think we haven't been trying everything possible to get around these things. Protoss players obsessed about the deathball is at least 4-5 months old now, drop it.
Meh lots of toss players are struggling atm due to zerg learning how to stop timing/infesotr buff for mid-late game and terran learning how strong there timings are. I for one expect ether nani/MC to come with a new way to play PvT/Z or for blizzard to buff stalker to be on par with mara/roach. But i tend to believe that won't be needed and the situation will just fix itself. It idd makes me sad as a toss player to have no toss to watch and those who i do watch win only be all ining. But there are loads of great toss in EU atm you can watch them... Bischu ( spelling, i proly mest up the name , Socke, MaNa, Nightend , Hasuobs... all of them are doing fairly well if they don't face korean T/Z and there aren't that many of them in EU expect for some major tournament where there are like 3 or 4 of them.
I can only imagine GSL will take action themself in like 1 or 2 season if nothing changes since TvTSL is inc and they will drop even more viewers... or just think positive and say that HuK will own Bomber and MVP then win the whole shit.
Ouchhhh This thread hurts me to read. The amount of anger, cynicism, and overall lack of civil spirit is kind of painful.
Honestly, I think PvZ is fine. Protoss needs to use HT more effectively to deal with infestors, and in general learn to not deathball -.-
However, although for the longest time I thought PvT was fine, and just required some innvoative play, I'm seeing a marked and radical slant in win rates towards the terran in that matchup. I can theory craft all I want, but I'm not a Korean Protoss and what I say will probably be wrong, but I really think that a solution or a patch will come out by next GSL season.
On August 12 2011 00:52 Huggerz wrote: DTs, HTs, Sentries, or just zealots, are all completely viable harass units, maybe not as cost effective as hellions or infestors etc. but protoss units cost more in general anyway, what do you expect... Saying protoss doesn't have a unit for taking out mineral lines fast is just ridiculous. They do, it's just you never see protoss players using them because they are obsessed with massing a ball of doom and splitting off units is an alien concept to most protoss, except for defending drops
There's a reason to why it's an "alien concept" to most protoss... it's because protoss units suck when they are split up compared to when zerg and terran units are split up...
Thanks for that in depth analysis, you've clearly thought about it extensively
Yet he remains more correct than you.
You obviously don't play Protoss if you think we haven't been trying everything possible to get around these things. Protoss players obsessed about the deathball is at least 4-5 months old now, drop it.
I'll take the word of a random poster on Team Liquid then, ignoring 90%+ pro level games I watch on streams, GSL, MLG, YouTube. Seems legit
On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote: Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually. And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us After the MC match. Thats not happening without a reason
Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss.
Then he goes into Ro8, face a Terran and lose 2 games to the 1-1-1 all in.
Protoss has simply always been this way. If you look at SC2 and compare it to BW, you'll see a startling amount of similarities, and this is one you see in BW as well. Protoss simply doesn't have the options of the other two races. Harassment is significantly more costly and risky for Protoss, and Protoss really don't have the ability to split up their army effectively because Protoss units are extremely ineffective in small numbers - you need to combine various units or else your army will get rolled. Not only that, but in SC2 Protoss has the worst T1 hands down, meaning that early aggression is pretty much impossible. This makes it a lot harder for Protoss players to adapt to metagame shifts or spice up their play significantly, and it's why you'll probably never see a truly dominant Protoss. We never even got close to a Protoss bonjwa in BW, and I doubt we ever will in SC2.
I'll take the word of a random poster on Team Liquid then, ignoring 90%+ pro level games I watch on streams, GSL, MLG, YouTube. Seems legit
If you honestly think that Protoss players just aren't experimenting you're being incredibly dense on purpose. It's not like you have different types of players playing each race - the player pools are big enough to where significant differences in racial performance throughout the professional scene isn't simply due to a couple bad players. It's a pretty well known fact that Protoss has by far the least harass options - any harassment costs the most for the least effectiveness. Unless you eat up an entire Warp-In cycle, you're only going to have 4 Zealots to harass a mineral line, and when workers can just run away from Zealots to any number of units that'll crush a small group of Zealots (including simply Stimmed Marines), then your drop was completely ineffective. Not only that, DT harassment revolved solely around your opponent making a mistake. If they don't have detection at their base, this is the only time you can do a significant amount of damage. Even then, workers can just run away from DT's since their melee units that move slow enough to let workers get away. Finally, DT harassment is incredibly expensive and is a tech choice that is mostly definitely NOT on the way to anything else like other harassment options are. What else are you going to harass with? Storm drops? Another incredibly expensive harassment technique that's effectiveness is limited by energy and your opponent not running away workers in time. After all of this we can just talk about how the Warp Prism isn't a practical unit at all - it costs 200 minerals (which is a lot, especially early game) and it takes up time from making Observers and Colossi. On top of this is the fact that it has the fortitude of a paper airplane.
Just realized something: I apologize to the creator of this thread for encouraging the balance discussion that originally should not belong in that threat. Sorry
On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote: Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually. And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us After the MC match. Thats not happening without a reason
Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss.
I didn't see the games but I'm pretty sure the 2 games DRG lost he 6 pooled once and took a risky gold base in the other, and I'm pretty sure that's not the way you're supposed to play zerg vs protoss
6 pools didn't change much. He didn't lose the game because of 6 pool, he lost it to how awesome JYC was with his prism play. And if JYC didn't scout him immediately in that game he would have straight up lost that game. 6 pool is a good choice on that map if you want to play the odds.
As for other game, DRG done that before and won. I am sure he would not do something like that in a really important clutch game unless he though this would get him ahead and not behind. Again, he lost because of poor scouting and not gold base. Do watch games before bashing a really good Toss player. I play Zerg, I follow Zerg pros and I love DRG most of all the Zergs in the world but game 2 when JYC done that prism play I could not but cheer for him.
On August 12 2011 01:10 Aterons_toss wrote: Meh lots of toss players are struggling atm due to zerg learning how to stop timing/infesotr buff for mid-late game and terran learning how strong there timings are. I for one expect ether nani/MC to come with a new way to play PvT/Z or for blizzard to buff stalker to be on par with mara/roach. But i tend to believe that won't be needed and the situation will just fix itself. It idd makes me sad as a toss player to have no toss to watch and those who i do watch win only be all ining. But there are loads of great toss in EU atm you can watch them... Bischu ( spelling, i proly mest up the name , Socke, MaNa, Nightend , Hasuobs... all of them are doing fairly well if they don't face korean T/Z and there aren't that many of them in EU expect for some major tournament where there are like 3 or 4 of them.
I can only imagine GSL will take action themself in like 1 or 2 season if nothing changes since TvTSL is inc and they will drop even more viewers... or just think positive and say that HuK will own Bomber and MVP then win the whole shit.
According to blizzard research protoss has an advantage against terran, which would seem to indicate that they should be doing well as there are so many terrans in the GSL. Apparently this does not hold true at the progamer level though.
Perhaps heart of the swarm will give protoss a nice option other than forcefields for the early game.
I would hang in there as a toss. Season 1 GSL looked very grim for Zerg, but fruitdealer won!
On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote: Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually. And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us After the MC match. Thats not happening without a reason
Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss.
I didn't see the games but I'm pretty sure the 2 games DRG lost he 6 pooled once and took a risky gold base in the other, and I'm pretty sure that's not the way you're supposed to play zerg vs protoss
6 pools didn't change much. He didn't lose the game because of 6 pool, he lost it to how awesome JYC was with his prism play. And if JYC didn't scout him immediately in that game he would have straight up lost that game. 6 pool is a good choice on that map if you want to play the odds.
As for other game, DRG done that before and won. I am sure he would not do something like that in a really important clutch game unless he though this would get him ahead and not behind. Again, he lost because of poor scouting and not gold base. Do watch games before bashing a really good Toss player. I play Zerg, I follow Zerg pros and I love DRG most of all the Zergs in the world but game 2 when JYC done that prism play I could not but cheer for him.
I wasn't bashing him, just said that DRG didn't play the way he should have from what I've read, everyone's saying that those 2 games were pretty much the sloppiest games from DRG ever.
On August 12 2011 01:14 Stratos_speAr wrote: Protoss has simply always been this way. If you look at SC2 and compare it to BW, you'll see a startling amount of similarities, and this is one you see in BW as well. Protoss simply doesn't have the options of the other two races. Harassment is significantly more costly and risky for Protoss, and Protoss really don't have the ability to split up their army effectively because Protoss units are extremely ineffective in small numbers - you need to combine various units or else your army will get rolled. Not only that, but in SC2 Protoss has the worst T1 hands down, meaning that early aggression is pretty much impossible. This makes it a lot harder for Protoss players to adapt to metagame shifts or spice up their play significantly, and it's why you'll probably never see a truly dominant Protoss. We never even got close to a Protoss bonjwa in BW, and I doubt we ever will in SC2.
It is really bad to talk this way about this since Zergs and Terrans both don't have a really dominating player and surely not more of them. Sc2 itself or metagame of sc2 so far makes this games really unpredictable and it is really hard for players to be consistent. Nestea does kind of look like the best player of SC2 at the moment but he is not nearly a dominating player.
On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote: Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually. And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us After the MC match. Thats not happening without a reason
Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss.
I didn't see the games but I'm pretty sure the 2 games DRG lost he 6 pooled once and took a risky gold base in the other, and I'm pretty sure that's not the way you're supposed to play zerg vs protoss
6 pools didn't change much. He didn't lose the game because of 6 pool, he lost it to how awesome JYC was with his prism play. And if JYC didn't scout him immediately in that game he would have straight up lost that game. 6 pool is a good choice on that map if you want to play the odds.
As for other game, DRG done that before and won. I am sure he would not do something like that in a really important clutch game unless he though this would get him ahead and not behind. Again, he lost because of poor scouting and not gold base. Do watch games before bashing a really good Toss player. I play Zerg, I follow Zerg pros and I love DRG most of all the Zergs in the world but game 2 when JYC done that prism play I could not but cheer for him.
I wasn't bashing him, just said that DRG didn't play the way he should have from what I've read, everyone's saying that those 2 games were pretty much the sloppiest games from DRG ever.
I do not agree. People are used to DRG dominating his opponents and winning easy. So when he loses Zergs are going to say he played sloppy and toss in their current whiny state of mind are going to say the same so it wouldn't look like Toss is not weak.
I was disappointed DRG didn't win because he was the last Code A player I cared about but I will not disrespect JYC play and claim it wasn't his great play that won him the games.
On August 12 2011 01:03 Brainiak wrote: Sorry that I didnt format this post correctly I am new here and I am not very familiar with the tools which are at my disposal.... read the whole thread, so i think i am allowed to post something. Honestly this thread made me rage, and i am quite biased, because i play protoss. However I will try to analyse the situation a bit. First of all, I think the game has evolved so much since beta, that previous results are not saying anything, only games of the recent metagame shift should be considered. To the point of terrans and zergs playing better than their protoss counterparts I say, why do you think most people play terran or zerg instead of protoss? Now I will talk about the situation of pvz, in my opinion its now heavily in favour of zerg. The only way I am winning now is 1 gate exe into 3 gate pressure with chronoboost to punish early thirds into 7 gate +2 blink stalker. Either I kill my opponent before he gets infestors or I will have to heavily outplay him. Infestors: have great granted dps counter blink the greatest strength in pvz for protoss render outmicroing baneling drops useless kill sentrys so quickly, another strength of protoss gone neural parasite high powering units, although you can try to kill the channeling infestor, but that leaves more effort on your part than on zergs infested terrans have great dps and can only be countered by splash who is needed to kill the zergs army blizzard designed one real counter to this unit: the high templar the problem is, feedback has the same range than neural or fungal so in order to kill the infestor before casting the templar has to stand right before your army leaving it vulnerable to pick offs. stargate play was strong but with the recent spore crawler buff it has become way easier to deal with, its no longer viable to stop a greedy zerg Now to the situation in pvt: There is not a great imbalance in pvt midgame, however ghost are super strong against anything protoss can throw at terran, thats a fact. But I feel that the new chargelot+ archon style is very good, until terrans learn to incorporate more marines and ghosts and less marauders into their play. the 1/1/1 push is undoubtedly imbalanced, it is so hard to hold, and btw i have held 1/1/1 pushes but just barely if my opponents had focus fired my immortals it would be gg. So on high level play it is near unstoppable, because high level player will focus fire These are my thoughts on that matter Feel free to comment or quote
On August 12 2011 01:22 ReaperX wrote: I think overlord drops are overpowered... You can drop your whole army onto another guys main... Not even Terran can do that and as fast.
Yeah man, motherships are imbalanced. You can recall your entire army into another guys main...
.............. This thread is a compilation of platinum players trying to use their ladder examples/experiences onto pro play.
On August 12 2011 01:14 Stratos_speAr wrote: Protoss has simply always been this way. If you look at SC2 and compare it to BW, you'll see a startling amount of similarities, and this is one you see in BW as well. Protoss simply doesn't have the options of the other two races. Harassment is significantly more costly and risky for Protoss, and Protoss really don't have the ability to split up their army effectively because Protoss units are extremely ineffective in small numbers - you need to combine various units or else your army will get rolled. Not only that, but in SC2 Protoss has the worst T1 hands down, meaning that early aggression is pretty much impossible. This makes it a lot harder for Protoss players to adapt to metagame shifts or spice up their play significantly, and it's why you'll probably never see a truly dominant Protoss. We never even got close to a Protoss bonjwa in BW, and I doubt we ever will in SC2.
It is really bad to talk this way about this since Zergs and Terrans both don't have a really dominating player and surely not more of them. Sc2 itself or metagame of sc2 so far makes this games really unpredictable and it is really hard for players to be consistent. Nestea does kind of look like the best player of SC2 at the moment but he is not nearly a dominating player.
Zerg has Nestea and Terran has a host of players that are consistently performing well, and the entirety of GSL is being dominated by Terrans. That speaks for itself. Just because we don't have any one dominant player doesn't mean we can't look at trends. Before domination you need consistency, and we're seeing that from Nestea and a large number of Terran players, as well as the Terran race in general. You don't see any consistency from any Protoss at all, which says something. I'm definitely not saying that we have a huge imbalance or anything like that. Who knows, maybe some Protoss revolution will come like Bisu did in BW. All I'm saying is that Protoss has a harder time, just like they did in BW, and there are good reasons for this.
On August 12 2011 01:14 Stratos_speAr wrote: Protoss has simply always been this way. If you look at SC2 and compare it to BW, you'll see a startling amount of similarities, and this is one you see in BW as well. Protoss simply doesn't have the options of the other two races. Harassment is significantly more costly and risky for Protoss, and Protoss really don't have the ability to split up their army effectively because Protoss units are extremely ineffective in small numbers - you need to combine various units or else your army will get rolled. Not only that, but in SC2 Protoss has the worst T1 hands down, meaning that early aggression is pretty much impossible. This makes it a lot harder for Protoss players to adapt to metagame shifts or spice up their play significantly, and it's why you'll probably never see a truly dominant Protoss. We never even got close to a Protoss bonjwa in BW, and I doubt we ever will in SC2.
It is really bad to talk this way about this since Zergs and Terrans both don't have a really dominating player and surely not more of them. Sc2 itself or metagame of sc2 so far makes this games really unpredictable and it is really hard for players to be consistent. Nestea does kind of look like the best player of SC2 at the moment but he is not nearly a dominating player.
Wait, so you don't consider a guy who's won 3 finals, them being a ZvT, ZvP and a ZvZ dominating? Or that he didn't lose a single game in the last season?
On August 12 2011 01:22 ReaperX wrote: I think overlord drops are overpowered... You can drop your whole army onto another guys main... Not even Terran can do that and as fast.
On August 12 2011 01:22 ReaperX wrote: I think overlord drops are overpowered... You can drop your whole army onto another guys main... Not even Terran can do that and as fast.
i loled.
Tyler agrees with him, and I'm inclined to agree too, mass drops just seem to do too much damage and are extremely difficult to stop even when you see them coming.
On August 12 2011 00:33 Techno wrote: This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply.
On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote: Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all.
Protoss win championships.
My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't.
You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me.
While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races.
Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases.
ZZZ people always complain cause of one bad season. Things will change guys, back then protoss didnt win anything, dominated for a time and now are having a bad run. Just wait for MC's return
Metagame Shifts and Playstyle. When infestors weren't as good in ZvP. PvZ was a breeze for the protoss player tbh. Their playstyle from the start was based around turtling up to 200/200 and now that zergs has figured it out it doesn't work as well anymore.
I think protoss is very vulnerable to early terran pushes though. I do not think it's because of the KA removal but instead because of the power and cost effictiveness of barrack units against gateway units. I then also believe than protoss players are the most liniear and almost never try new things. You might argue that zealot archon is a new style sure, but so is Ling/Infestor, Roach/Infestor, Muta/Ling in the ZvP matchup. I think also protosses underrate drops because warp prisms are so fast that they work perfectly as hit n run or for counter attacks, they also carry the most in the game considering that they can also warp in after they drop off their load.
Zergs just using tier 3 more. More infestors. Terrans using EMP more.
The same crap we told them to use when they were imba whining about protoss. But we get nerfed anyway?
Warp gate nerf didn't do anything for PvP. Just hurt the other matchups instead. -_- Protoss needs to explore more? What is there left to explore? Carriers? LOL
Or maybe this will be like MC's first run to GSL championship where he won despite low protoss representation and a general cynical attitude by protoss players. (Kind of like season 1 of GSL for zerg players). Though he did it with timing attacks.
On August 12 2011 01:39 -orb- wrote: Protoss has been underpowered for ages, just took this long for terrans and zergs to learn to play
On August 12 2011 01:16 RexFTW wrote: According to blizzard research protoss has an advantage against terran,
Have they published any new statistics in the last time? Just found a blog entry from october last year...
I haven't seen any new statistics, but Browder just recently did an interview where he said all regions have balance within 55% except for Korea where grandmaster Terran are winning more then others.
Metagame Shifts and Playstyle. When infestors weren't as good in ZvP. PvZ was a breeze for the protoss player tbh. Their playstyle from the start was based around turtling up to 200/200 and now that zergs has figured it out it doesn't work as well anymore.
I think protoss is very vulnerable to early terran pushes though. I do not think it's because of the KA removal but instead because of the power and cost effictiveness of barrack units against gateway units. I then also believe than protoss players are the most liniear and almost never try new things. You might argue that zealot archon is a new style sure, but so is Ling/Infestor, Roach/Infestor, Muta/Ling in the ZvP matchup. I think also protosses underrate drops because warp prisms are so fast that they work perfectly as hit n run or for counter attacks, they also carry the most in the game considering that they can also warp in after they drop off their load.
I don't agree that protoss players are not innovative, we are all humans and we use whatever tools are at our disposal. Saying that the players are the ones who are lacking in new ideas is just plain silly, it's simple the race, protoss is so linear. We can't open with high templar or dark templar or anything like that, it's just not effective. It's basically 3 options: Gateway units, Collosus tech or Stargate tech.
Warp gates are pathetic they die so so quick not even the best players can make use of them properly, let alone the general protoss player base.
On August 12 2011 01:22 ReaperX wrote: I think overlord drops are overpowered... You can drop your whole army onto another guys main... Not even Terran can do that and as fast.
i loled.
Tyler agrees with him, and I'm inclined to agree too, mass drops just seem to do too much damage and are extremely difficult to stop even when you see them coming.
Well Protoss deathball is extremely difficult to stop, but I dont see you complaining about that.
If you are having trouble with drops here are some things to do:
Dont block your ramp so much so that your units can move freely into your base. Position your buildings so there is a clear path from the ramp to where a drop zone will be. Get blink Place some cannons in the back of your base (HuK style) Spread out your tech across all of your bases. Build extra gateways so that you can save stalker warp ins to shoot down incoming overlords.
If you do all of these things and they do not work then you have room to complain!
Metagame Shifts and Playstyle. When infestors weren't as good in ZvP. PvZ was a breeze for the protoss player tbh. Their playstyle from the start was based around turtling up to 200/200 and now that zergs has figured it out it doesn't work as well anymore.
I think protoss is very vulnerable to early terran pushes though. I do not think it's because of the KA removal but instead because of the power and cost effictiveness of barrack units against gateway units. I then also believe than protoss players are the most liniear and almost never try new things. You might argue that zealot archon is a new style sure, but so is Ling/Infestor, Roach/Infestor, Muta/Ling in the ZvP matchup. I think also protosses underrate drops because warp prisms are so fast that they work perfectly as hit n run or for counter attacks, they also carry the most in the game considering that they can also warp in after they drop off their load.
I don't agree that protoss players are not innovative, we are all humans and we use whatever tools are at our disposal. Saying that the players are the ones who are lacking in new ideas is just plain silly, it's simple the race, protoss is so linear. We can't open with high templar or dark templar or anything like that, it's just not effective. It's basically 3 options: Gateway units, Collosus tech or Stargate tech.
Warp gates are pathetic they die so so quick not even the best players can make use of them properly, let alone the general protoss player base.
Not all humans are the same, and there is obviously similar traits between most protoss players. Just like similar traits between most terran players, hence terran players are so superior on the korean server(numbers help to)
On August 12 2011 01:16 RexFTW wrote: According to blizzard research protoss has an advantage against terran,
Have they published any new statistics in the last time? Just found a blog entry from october last year...
This is what a blizzard mod said on the forums a couple of days ago
I disagree. At MLG Anaheim just a few days ago, there were more Protoss players than the other two races, and across all matches, Protoss win percentages were very close to 50%.
On August 12 2011 00:33 Techno wrote: This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply.
On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote: Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it.
The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all.
Protoss win championships.
My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't.
You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me.
While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races.
Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases.
This discussion is going in a circle. We both have our opinions and we're not willing to change it. You think Terrans are successful only because they play terran, and I think terran players are successful because they are better than their protoss counterparts. That's fine, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Waiting a year is perfectly reasonable. It's not like protosses have 0% winrate in every matchup. If you look at the international statistics (the korean don't mean much because they only factor in GSL, which is not a big sample size), I think protoss still wins around 47% and 46% of the time in PvT and PvZ respectively. That's not great, but definitely not enough to warrant a balance change. Even if you look at the Korea, I don't think it's bad enough to warrant an immediate change. If protoss was winning 10-20% in every matchup for an extended period of time, then yes I think a change would be in order. I don't like this constant knee-jerk reaction everytime a race does bad for a short period of time that's prevalent in the SC2 community.
almost everything terran is too good, especially mules and marines.
inject larvae is too good
new one: infestors too good
most of this has been true since beta but instead of fixing these basic issues apparently the bunker is the source of all evil and will get changed every patch. also ultralisks should be immune to neural parasite so they won't get neuraled in zvz because hive zvz is the most standard thing ever and we liked metalopolis because its a macro map so we made slag pits which is even more macro!
tl;dr blizzard doesn't know what the shit they're doing
On August 12 2011 01:14 Stratos_speAr wrote: Protoss has simply always been this way. If you look at SC2 and compare it to BW, you'll see a startling amount of similarities, and this is one you see in BW as well. Protoss simply doesn't have the options of the other two races. Harassment is significantly more costly and risky for Protoss, and Protoss really don't have the ability to split up their army effectively because Protoss units are extremely ineffective in small numbers - you need to combine various units or else your army will get rolled. Not only that, but in SC2 Protoss has the worst T1 hands down, meaning that early aggression is pretty much impossible. This makes it a lot harder for Protoss players to adapt to metagame shifts or spice up their play significantly, and it's why you'll probably never see a truly dominant Protoss. We never even got close to a Protoss bonjwa in BW, and I doubt we ever will in SC2.
It is really bad to talk this way about this since Zergs and Terrans both don't have a really dominating player and surely not more of them. Sc2 itself or metagame of sc2 so far makes this games really unpredictable and it is really hard for players to be consistent. Nestea does kind of look like the best player of SC2 at the moment but he is not nearly a dominating player.
Zerg has Nestea and Terran has a host of players that are consistently performing well, and the entirety of GSL is being dominated by Terrans. That speaks for itself. Just because we don't have any one dominant player doesn't mean we can't look at trends. Before domination you need consistency, and we're seeing that from Nestea and a large number of Terran players, as well as the Terran race in general. You don't see any consistency from any Protoss at all, which says something. I'm definitely not saying that we have a huge imbalance or anything like that. Who knows, maybe some Protoss revolution will come like Bisu did in BW. All I'm saying is that Protoss has a harder time, just like they did in BW, and there are good reasons for this.
No they are not. Nestea is one Zerg that is winning anything and he is not consistent enough to be considered a dominating player. He won his 2nd GSL title and then lost both supertournament and world championships. He did win convincingly in last GSL but he didn't meet any strong terrans or toss in his run. And anyways one player does not make an argument for balance. And this is Losira's first good run in GSL. No other Zergs have done shit in GSL (no 1st open season is not a measurement for anything but to see how bad they all were back then).
Terrans arguably best player is IMMvP who dropped to Code A!! MMA couldn't get through Code A normally. Bomber that has hyped as hell didn't do shit so far. No terrans are consistently dominating (not to mention all the older "good" terrans are now code A or Code B including Jinro). Where is MKP?! In comparison Polt/Optimus was crap before. He got crushed by Jinro when he claimed he would beat him on camera. He learned to play.
And if we look beyond GSL toss are doing fine, actually better then Zergs if we go way back to look at many tournaments. You can say, but GSL is the best, others don't matter. Well tell that to many people here whining about balance at THEIR level or play. If their level of play matters for their argument then Tier 2 and Tier 3 tournaments (as opposed to GSL being Tier 1) matter as well. If we want to look all over Terrans done the best, then Toss and then Zerg.
This GSL only shows that Terran players have found an effective way to combat both Toss and Zerg. If anything it talks about Terran being OP, not toss being UP. But metagame for this game is not over. Things will change each month. Stop whining.
Protoss players need to have perfect macro and micro to win a game. Where Zerg and Terran really only need one of those aspects to be 100% perfect, and the others can float around 90-95%.
Look at Alicia's game, missed on FF by 1 square and its immediately GG. No other mechanic is like this in SC2.
On August 12 2011 01:14 Stratos_speAr wrote: Protoss has simply always been this way. If you look at SC2 and compare it to BW, you'll see a startling amount of similarities, and this is one you see in BW as well. Protoss simply doesn't have the options of the other two races. Harassment is significantly more costly and risky for Protoss, and Protoss really don't have the ability to split up their army effectively because Protoss units are extremely ineffective in small numbers - you need to combine various units or else your army will get rolled. Not only that, but in SC2 Protoss has the worst T1 hands down, meaning that early aggression is pretty much impossible. This makes it a lot harder for Protoss players to adapt to metagame shifts or spice up their play significantly, and it's why you'll probably never see a truly dominant Protoss. We never even got close to a Protoss bonjwa in BW, and I doubt we ever will in SC2.
It is really bad to talk this way about this since Zergs and Terrans both don't have a really dominating player and surely not more of them. Sc2 itself or metagame of sc2 so far makes this games really unpredictable and it is really hard for players to be consistent. Nestea does kind of look like the best player of SC2 at the moment but he is not nearly a dominating player.
Wait, so you don't consider a guy who's won 3 finals, them being a ZvT, ZvP and a ZvZ dominating? Or that he didn't lose a single game in the last season?
If he won them one after another then you could claim that. If he beat good players in each of them you could claim that. If it is false that he almost didn't get to Ro16 in current GSL then you could claim that.
In SCBW there were many dominating players. There are none such in SC2 at the moment. Nestea accomplishment make him the best player but not a dominating one. He is not Michael Jordan of Sc2 and he is not Federer of SC2. And even if he was it would only mean he is OP, not Zerg. One person does nothing to prove or disprove anything.
On August 12 2011 01:40 Dante08 wrote: ZZZ people always complain cause of one bad season. Things will change guys, back then protoss didnt win anything, dominated for a time and now are having a bad run. Just wait for MC's return
This GSL only shows that Terran players have found an effective way to combat both Toss and Zerg. If anything it talks about Terran being OP, not toss being UP. But metagame for this game is not over. Things will change each month. Stop whining.
You aren't doing yourself any favours here
Most Korean players are Terran, so most PvX games are PvT. If Terran is overpowered, then Protoss will lose a lot of their games and seem underpowered. People are complaining far more about 1-1-1 than any Zerg build, it should be noted, which seems to indicate a Terran imbalance more than a Protoss imbalance.
Of course, we had a ZvZ finals last season, but that way lies madness as you can then get stuck in arguments starting with things like: "That was before the BFH craze" or "Nestea is so much better than everyone else that he can overcome racial imbalances" and so on.
Not saying that's what I think - I believe it's too early to come to a confident conclusion, contrary to popular belief in this thread - but you could get mired in a bog of "balance discussion" here.
Fact : A month ago, suddenly protoss became the weakest race and only balance changes can solve that.
Let's not try to be a good TL member and let's keep whining that our dear GSL protoss players are in a slump. I mean come on, there is absolutely no way that the game is balanced when one race is doing very poorly compared to the other two. All these zergs players telling us to stfu just don't understand what it's like to lose like that. We have the best players and the best strategies because P is obviously the most discovered race, but we still can't do squat because of our shitty units.
TL agrees with that, otherwise they would not let all these bnet-like balance threads open. Whenever Z or T had troubles, a couple of days later it was fixed. It's now been several weeks for P players, and they're still doing poorly. I don't know what additionnal proof you guys need to understand that P needs help.
On August 12 2011 01:40 Dante08 wrote: ZZZ people always complain cause of one bad season. Things will change guys, back then protoss didnt win anything, dominated for a time and now are having a bad run. Just wait for MC's return
I think this is no coincidence, and I assume Protoss (in Korea that is) will keep dragging behind just like in Brood War.
However, for me as a spectator, this is good news simply because any PvX match up are the least fun games to watch IMO, so the more TvZ, TvT and ZvZ, the happier I get.
Edit: The skill ceiling for Protoss is faster to reach but also lower than f.e. Zerg, so when Zergs like Nestea and the beasts that will soon come forth in Korea starts to pass the P ceiling and beyond, Blizzard will have tough time balancing. This was visible in Brood war aswell, but it took so many years for the perfect Zerg and Terran to enter the scene, and with Sc2's overall lowered skill ceiling this will be seen much faster, and, the balancing will be nigh impossible.
Brood War just seemed balanced IMO just because no one could reach the ceiling. so it was possible for the better player to outplay his opponent, while I assume win ratios like those of Flash will not be possible in Sc2.
On August 12 2011 02:17 MandoRelease wrote: Fact : A month ago, suddenly protoss became the weakest race and only balance changes can solve that.
Let's not try to be a good TL member and let's keep whining that our dear GSL protoss players are in a slump. I mean come on, there is absolutely no way that the game is balanced when one race is doing very poorly compared to the other two. All these zergs players telling us to stfu just don't understand what it's like to lose like that. We have the best players and the best strategies because P is obviously the most discovered race, but we still can't do squat because of our shitty units.
TL agrees with that, otherwise they would not let all these bnet-like balance threads open. Whenever Z or T had troubles, a couple of days later it was fixed. It's now been several weeks for P players, and they're still doing poorly. I don't know what additionnal proof you guys need to understand that P needs help.
Sarcasm doesn't help anyone, and just makes you look smarmy. Grow up, please.
Zerg has definetely had their share of whining in the past, and Terran has had the majority of GSL competitors since it's beginning. I'm not surprised it's Protoss' turn to complain, justified or not.
the assumption that a protoss player will have perfect force fields in order for protoss to be balanced with the other races, esp. in the early mid game is shiite imho. ff's should be a supplement not a requirement in the balance equasion.
On August 12 2011 02:17 MandoRelease wrote: Fact : A month ago, suddenly protoss became the weakest race and only balance changes can solve that.
Let's not try to be a good TL member and let's keep whining that our dear GSL protoss players are in a slump. I mean come on, there is absolutely no way that the game is balanced when one race is doing very poorly compared to the other two. All these zergs players telling us to stfu just don't understand what it's like to lose like that. We have the best players and the best strategies because P is obviously the most discovered race, but we still can't do squat because of our shitty units.
TL agrees with that, otherwise they would not let all these bnet-like balance threads open. Whenever Z or T had troubles, a couple of days later it was fixed. It's now been several weeks for P players, and they're still doing poorly. I don't know what additionnal proof you guys need to understand that P needs help.
What are you smoking? The only thing that was fixed like that for Zerg was Reaper 5 rax opening. Terran got a fast fix against Ultra cleave.
There is no facts here that you claim, only your imagination at work.
Seems like protoss gameplay has almost become stagnant as of late. Rarely do you see any unique harass or strats come from protoss anymore. It's almost always still just the typical death-ball strat.
Where are the HT drops? I don't see why this hasn't made an appearance in SC2 yet. You could easily wipe out a whole mineral line or 2 if opponents don't react really quickly.
On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote: Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually. And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us After the MC match. Thats not happening without a reason
Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss.
is there another parallel universe where JYC crushed DRG....cuz to me it looked like he won by the skin of his teeth
On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote: We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp.
This is such a stupid argument. I remember a time when one base all ins vs Zerg were also explained as Zerg kills us late game. Then a couple of pros started to play a macro Terran late game style and it was so far from the truth just as all Zergs claimed at the time.
On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote: Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually. And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us After the MC match. Thats not happening without a reason
Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss.
is there another parallel universe where JYC crushed DRG....cuz to me it looked like he won by the skin of his teeth
2nd game he would have won easily if he continued to scout with ill phoenix like he did for most of the game. He should not have been so surprised by 10 broodlords. 3rd game he won easily, not sure what you are talking about.
And DRG is probably the most talented Zerg player in the world after Nestea, JYC winning like he did meant more then beating someone like Idra 5:0
On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote: We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp.
This is such a stupid argument. I remember a time when one base all ins vs Zerg were also explained as Zerg kills us late game. Then a couple of pros started to play a macro Terran late game style and it was so far from the truth just as all Zergs claimed at the time.
Also, if this is the case then Blizzard still needs to patch the game, as even if there is a 50% winrate in each match-up, if Terran has to win before the X minute mark, the game has deep design flaws.
EDIT: Just making sure that I AGREE with Archangel and DISAGREE with Wasteweiser (what a name, btw) before people get confused and think I am refuting Archangel's point.
On August 12 2011 02:24 Bouric wrote: Seems like protoss gameplay has almost become stagnant as of late. Rarely do you see any unique harass or strats come from protoss anymore. It's almost always still just the typical death-ball strat.
Where are the HT drops? I don't see why this hasn't made an appearance in SC2 yet. You could easily wipe out a whole mineral line or 2 if opponents don't react really quickly.
^^the cost effectiveness of protoss drop harassment is immense, esp if youre talking dropping with HT's. you need 3 bases and a standing army at your bases to pull this off. anything less you will simply die to a bum rush b/c u need those resources and time to defend correctly. another thing, robo's dont have reactors... the production time of a single robo is crucial esp when you splitting it between observers+ colos, and maybe immortals in the early game, and now you want a warp prism. it doesnt work in the mid game whatsoever, esp if your opponent is pressuring or dropping, or god forbid you lose an observer...
On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote: We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp.
This is such a stupid argument. I remember a time when one base all ins vs Zerg were also explained as Zerg kills us late game. Then a couple of pros started to play a macro Terran late game style and it was so far from the truth just as all Zergs claimed at the time.
Also, if this is the case then Blizzard still needs to patch the game, as even if there is a 50% winrate in each match-up, if Terran has to win before the X minute mark, the game has deep design flaws.
Maybe you want to reread my post?! I think the meaning of my sentence was pretty clear although I am not a native English speaker.
On August 12 2011 02:24 Bouric wrote: Seems like protoss gameplay has almost become stagnant as of late. Rarely do you see any unique harass or strats come from protoss anymore. It's almost always still just the typical death-ball strat.
Where are the HT drops? I don't see why this hasn't made an appearance in SC2 yet. You could easily wipe out a whole mineral line or 2 if opponents don't react really quickly.
^^the cost effectiveness of protoss drop harassment is immense, esp if youre talking dropping with HT's. you need 3 bases and a standing army at your bases to pull this off. anything less you will simply die to a bum rush b/c u need those resources and time to defend correctly. another thing, robo's dont have reactors... the production time of a single robo is crucial esp when you splitting it between observers+ colos, and maybe immortals in the early game, and now you want a warp prism. it doesnt work in the mid game whatsoever, esp if your opponent is pressuring or dropping, or god forbid you lose an observer...
Perhaps a better way of putting it would be: Protoss have trouble harassing in the early- to mid-game. If you are in PvZ, having options to harass AFTER you've reached 3 bases and the Zerg has already droned up to his/her satisfaction seems far less useful than BFH or whatever else you can use as an opening.
On August 12 2011 02:17 MandoRelease wrote: Fact : A month ago, suddenly protoss became the weakest race and only balance changes can solve that.
Let's not try to be a good TL member and let's keep whining that our dear GSL protoss players are in a slump. I mean come on, there is absolutely no way that the game is balanced when one race is doing very poorly compared to the other two. All these zergs players telling us to stfu just don't understand what it's like to lose like that. We have the best players and the best strategies because P is obviously the most discovered race, but we still can't do squat because of our shitty units.
TL agrees with that, otherwise they would not let all these bnet-like balance threads open. Whenever Z or T had troubles, a couple of days later it was fixed. It's now been several weeks for P players, and they're still doing poorly. I don't know what additionnal proof you guys need to understand that P needs help.
Why talk about "additional" proof when you've offered no proof at all yet?
On August 12 2011 02:17 MandoRelease wrote: ^^the cost effectiveness of protoss drop harassment is immense, esp if youre talking dropping with HT's. you need 3 bases and a standing army at your bases to pull this off. anything less you will simply die to a bum rush b/c u need those resources and time to defend correctly. another thing, robo's dont have reactors... the production time of a single robo is crucial esp when you splitting it between observers+ colos, and maybe immortals in the early game, and now you want a warp prism. it doesnt work in the mid game whatsoever, esp if your opponent is pressuring or dropping, or god forbid you lose an observer...
I suppose you meant "cost" rather than "cost-effectiveness".
Unfortunately, all of that is theorycrafting. You can not present an evidence in WORDS that the Protoss cannot utilize more harassment-oriented play. You can only keep exploring all the options in the game, or decide not to.
I am not gonna touch on 111, coz there are ways around it. Best way i've found is to not let him do it unharassed. Change it up, force the mistake (I found blink stalkers worked well)
Other than that I agree with 2 of the original points and would like the convo to come back to this Protoss has no innovators Protoss has no real options for innovation.
These are not the same points.
I've recently taken to playing as risky as anything against T just to give myself an edge coz they expect standard play from me. I have a 1 1 1 build of my own I use that exploits terran's playstyles atm but thats just it. Its exploiting a weakness in their play. It doesnt actually counter anything,, and insta loses to 1 1 1 ( )
Otherwise, I try to come up with counters to the common ladder buids as well, and the problem here is that they don't transition well. I mean, I am a diamond Protoss, and I have lost to a silver using roach infestor, and ALMOST lost to a gold who went infestor ling (which i hard countered) who repop'd into roach infestor off 2 bases (ONLY TWO. i scouted everywhere), and held my 200 pop push. All my zealots became useless with the repop into roaches. I mean useless. They were 3 3 1 vs 2(attack) 1 armor roach infestor with minor broodlord support
Basically, I have to prep to counter a half dozen builds before I am sure whats coming. Yes, our prep builds are fairly standard coz they need to be. If they aren't, we just die. Protoss get's rid of the scouting worker the latest of all races, unless we;'re lucky with a zealot.
Other than that, would love to chat to some guys who've been innovating as well to share builds, and chat about this, coz 2 brains better than one, but i've found without map control, which we can't keep without DT's in PvT and air units in PvZ, (both of which die to fairly large timing windows), we're in shit.
How to 'fix' Protoss though? I'm unsure if the race is definitively in need of a buff, at least for now but really what avenues have not yet been explored?
Warp Prisms are far, far too fragile and just not viable until you have speed on them. In addition the Protoss' drop options are weak. Make Prism's speed upgrade a bit slower, but give it to them from the start? Even if you get into a mineral line, they can just pull SCVs/Drones for little or no damage. DTs can't get more than a few hits off before a decent player scans and has his bio in range, chargelots targetting means they'll run off at a marine 20 miles away rather than kill SCVs!
Again the entire problem of the race is due to the Warpgate mechanic, our tier 1 units are weak as hell until upgraded to compensate for the ability to warp in anywhere. Due to their individual weaknesses they are also less useful in drops, in defending drops in small groups and in defending all-ins without perfect forcefields
Does this entire mechanic need a re-work for HoTS? It'll screw up a lot of our current openers but I'd much rather compete with equally good tier 1 units, plus it would finally make people shut up about our race require 'no macro ability'
Stalkers are only good because of blink micro, not the most taxing thing in the world but to rely on blinking everything well kind of shits on the fallacy that "Protoss is the A-move race". Sentries are pretty damn good I'm not going to lie, but it's not as if Protoss can do anything without them. Pre-Charge Zealots are next to useless without forcefields to prevent kiting from bio armies.
For me the only genuinely under-utilised units in the Protoss arsenal (in terms of being a significant part of an army composition rather than just a few for harass), are phoenixes and carriers. There's a multitude of good reasons as to why Carriers are rarely seen, namely their INSANE build time, but they are a strong unit when used correctly I guess.
Phoenix experimentation phase seems to already have started, with I think it was Sage using some interesting funky builds, so I'm interested to wait and see how that turns out
On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote: We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp.
What...?! Ghosts counter every protoss unit. Dead serious. How do you lose lategame to Protoss?
Maybe you should ask Hasuobs, who literally never loses PvT once he gets 3-4 bases and templar out, even if he is ridiculously far behind.
I dont see many PvT get to 3-4 bases....I think thats what is the majority of the argument here is that PvT is over by mid game and that its strongly favored towards terran
On August 11 2011 15:40 DarkRise wrote: I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression.
I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe).
But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies.
Maybe?
Or they can all just cannon rush.
From what I have been seeing, in reality, a 200/200 Zerg Ball always wins, Zergling, Infestor, Broods are pretty good.
I remember the CatZ interview of Dustin Browder, and he brought up one of the big problems of Protoss in which Blizzard is looking to rectify, the lack of a proper raiding unit.
Regarding PvZ, I think it's just a slump period where protoss will catch up soon enough. Or in any case, it's hard to point at something that's alarming.
Regarding PvT we've seen a huge step back in the metagame to kindergarden play in these past weeks on GSL. Everytime a terran feels he is in trouble he seems to retard into 1-base mode and frankly it's very hard to deal with for protoss. MC, Alicia and now Tassadar all fell to this.
Watch especially tassadar versus yoda on crossfire. Tassadar knows it's coming and doesn't want to expand. He just wants to crush the attack or at least come out even. Yoda even builds a CC but tassadar is still totally crushed. Sure, if he had had a colossus he would've been better off but he had no way of knowing if it was safe to get one. He thought he was commited to just making units off his current tech and preparing for the attack.
So why did he get so slaughtered? MC and Alicia didn't stand a chance either. Keep in mind that these are two of the very best PvT players and they have very good micro. Still, the skill it takes for a terran to have a decent win percentage chance against someone like MC while doing a 1-base attack is so good that terran players would be fools not to do it in a tournament like GSL where there's money involved.
Terran flexibility and the immense power of the marine make it tough. Flexibility is a problem because you have to count the banshees, you have to take cloak into account, you have to count the marines and the siege tanks and prepare perfectly. Terran just has to throw a dice and a-move.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
Terran does very all in builds vs Toss because toss is way better in the macro late game currently. Might as well realize your own strengths and take advantage of it like the koreans have been.
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
It's funny because MC is INCREDIBLY AMAZING, he just loses anyways.
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
He gets knocked out in the Ro32 in the hardest tourney in the world and he's slipping. You people are retarded. Hell oGs should probably just drop him, he has no chance anymore right?
This is just a period, things change. Do people have long term memory problems or something? I remember not long ago terrans were complaining about PvT, and zerg was considered the weakest race.
Now it's flipped and protoss are complaining? Just give it time. I can promise you, with 100% certainty, that in 2 months it'll all be different and then maybe terran is the weakest, or zerg. I'll just go ahead and say it, its the METAGAME, and it's ruining ESPORTS. No, but seriously the game just changes, just roll with it.
We dont need balance changes, more units would be nice just for variety and gameplay, but the game will fix itself.
It's like a pendulum of balance, but once we get to one side people somehow forget we were ever on the other side, it's incredible.
On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote: We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp.
What...?! Ghosts counter every protoss unit. Dead serious. How do you lose lategame to Protoss?
Maybe you should ask Hasuobs, who literally never loses PvT once he gets 3-4 bases and templar out, even if he is ridiculously far behind.
I dont see many PvT get to 3-4 bases....I think thats what is the majority of the argument here is that PvT is over by mid game and that its strongly favored towards terran
He's saying that you can't lose to protoss lategame as terran because of ghosts and i'm saying that's not the case......
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT
On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote: We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp.
What...?! Ghosts counter every protoss unit. Dead serious. How do you lose lategame to Protoss?
Maybe you should ask Hasuobs, who literally never loses PvT once he gets 3-4 bases and templar out, even if he is ridiculously far behind.
I dont see many PvT get to 3-4 bases....I think thats what is the majority of the argument here is that PvT is over by mid game and that its strongly favored towards terran
He's saying that you can't lose to protoss lategame as terran because of ghosts and i'm saying that's not the case......
I agree. I think late game protoss probably has an edge, when toss has teched up it's very tough for terran.
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
He gets knocked out in the Ro32 in the hardest tourney in the world and he's slipping. You people are retarded. Hell oGs should probably just drop him, he has no chance anymore right?
How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT
It takes a lot of control, macro and an inane strategic mind to make marines tank and banshees on 1 base and push across the map as a ball to siege the natural.
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
Stars don't matter when your average Terran/Zerg consistently beats average Protoss.
It has nothing to do with "stars." Nestea/MVP/Losira/Bomber/etc. are great players, but when I see mediocre players take out MC, who have much slower reaction time, macro that slip from time to time and sometimes make terrible decisions, something is definitely wrong.
On August 12 2011 00:33 Techno wrote: This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply.
On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote: Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it.
The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all.
Protoss win championships.
My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't.
You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me.
While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races.
Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases.
No Im not making the claim that Protoss players are worse than anyone. Where did I mention Terran? I'm saying we don't need Blizzards intervention. You should think that way, it would help you improve more. Noobs in this thread don't even fucking know. If you were all good Masters players and calmly said specific things without over exagerating than maybe I could take you seriously, but you all act like its so obvious that Protoss sucks fucking ass, but from my perspective Protoss is doing just fine. Terran is doing great in the GM leagues and in GSL, but not an evidently ridiculous amount of great. I strongly believe Protoss can be played MUCH better than anyone currently plays Protoss.
Until Terrans are defending each mineral line against warped in Zealots, Until Protoss are manually charging individual Zealots, Until Protoss are perpetually chronoboosting +3 armour every game (<18:30 bitches), protoss cant say shit
Toss late game IS powerful I don't think anybody who plays the race disputes that, but what difference does it make if you can't get there?
I am not racially biased either, I did sympathise with Zerg players back in the day, but I think if nothing groundbreaking is figured out in a month or two can you really argue that Protoss isn't in need of some kind of buff or, as I prefer a general reworking of our mechanics. I really don't care for the ability to warp in all that much, I play Terran too and it's really not that difficult to rally and queue units. What is wrong with the idea of removing warpgate for a tier 1 army buff for example?
Really the 'problems' with the race are to do with a weak tier 1 army, a lack of mobility and the difficulty in splitting your forces. The tech tree is also all over the place. I actually liked the idea of both DTs and HTs coming from the same tech building to somewhat streamline the tech tree, 250 gas and a ridiculous build time for the Dark Shrine makes your game likely to be won and lost on whether or not your opponent has sufficient (cheap) detection
Personally I don't see much changing until HoTS, so no major shifts will occur and I'm interested to see what Blizzard will do
Im surprised that GSL Protoss don't do this more honestly. Some of these ultra greedy builds I'm seeing from Terrans in the GSL could be punished reallly hard by a cannon rush. Watching Terrans do 1 rax expands or CC first builds and get away with it just seems like a bad strategy. Often they seem to skip scouting until 15ish supply too. If you did a cannon rush on a map like Terminus or Taldirm Alter I think alot of terrans in GSL would auto lose because they went for a greedy build.
1 Barrack Expand is a safe opening in the TvP match up if they are cross position, also you won't see some Terrans scouting until the Barracks is finished because that is roughly 100 minerals that they lose from early scouting. So if they do a fast Expand ( a safe one) you will see the CC being built around 21 supply, you will be able to usually scout Protoss before this point so if you do see some aggression coming towards you, you can adapt your build.
On August 12 2011 02:41 DooMDash wrote: Terran does very all in builds vs Toss because toss is way better in the macro late game currently. Might as well realize your own strengths and take advantage of it like the koreans have been.
The Koreans have been losing to 1/1/1 all-ins practically every game. Yoda plays a standard game against Tassadar, gets raped. Does a 1/1/1 all-in twice, against Tassadar doing the purported hard counter builds, messes up a ton, and wins overwhelmingly anyway. How are you supposed to take advantage of late game strength if you literally can't live past the 10 minute mark?
Furthermore, this "Protoss is imba in the lategame" is just a bullshit justification for wanting easy wins from the 1/1/1. Bomber and Polt have pretty insane TvP winrates, and they don't all-in a whole lot. Bomber destroys Protosses in long macro games. I dare you to show me a Protoss with a 80% PvT winrate. Terran had a positive winrate against Protoss even before the 1/1/1 became prominent ffs.
On August 12 2011 02:45 Deadlyfish wrote: This is just a period, things change. Do people have long term memory problems or something? I remember not long ago terrans were complaining about PvT, and zerg was considered the weakest race.
Now it's flipped and protoss are complaining? Just give it time. I can promise you, with 100% certainty, that in 2 months it'll all be different and then maybe terran is the weakest, or zerg. I'll just go ahead and say it, its the METAGAME, and it's ruining ESPORTS. No, but seriously the game just changes, just roll with it.
We dont need balance changes, more units would be nice just for variety and gameplay, but the game will fix itself.
It's like a pendulum of balance, but once we get to one side people somehow forget we were ever on the other side, it's incredible.
Yeah terran complained about TvP, and yet it stayed at 50 percent. Toss is in the 30 percent winrates and 3-19 vs korean terran since up/downs. This fucking all in is 5 rax reaper level of abuse. There is no reponse that doesn't get you outright killed or puts you way behind. This is an all in that can be scouted 5 mins ahead of time, be hardcountered, and still destroy the Protoss.
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT
I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters.
Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about.
So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision.
On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games.
On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote: How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while.
On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote: We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp.
What...?! Ghosts counter every protoss unit. Dead serious. How do you lose lategame to Protoss?
Maybe you should ask Hasuobs, who literally never loses PvT once he gets 3-4 bases and templar out, even if he is ridiculously far behind.
I find that I am struggling most earlier than that. Even Blizzard said back in Bliz-con 2010 that they were concerned with protoss was "lopsided" tech wise. That their endgame was amazing, but their early game has weaknesses compaired to the other two.
I really think Protoss needs to be leveled out a bit. The endgame may be amazing, but if we never get a third base, what does it matter?
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT
I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters.
Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about.
So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and requires more handspeed and precision.
On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games.
On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote: How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here.
What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while.
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT
I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters.
Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about.
So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and requires more handspeed and precision.
On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games.
On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote: How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here.
What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while.
MC vs puma MC vs sen.
Mhm yeah, I suppose that was fairly recent. Kind of slipped off my mind tbh.
Still, the games played by the others that were mentioned were comparable enough.
I'm a terran so i will only comment on the TvP MU.
I think we are asking the wrong questions...instead of assuming there is a problem with imbalance overall it seems that they have been having major trouble against early agression. Perhaps the current toss metagame is simply too greedy? I wouldnt expect to be able to hold a fast expansion against a 1base protoss player without significant static defence (on most maps) so maybe protoss need to delay their expansions against 1base play.
It seems to me that the issue is the current brand of 1-1-1 1base pushes which are currently very successful and I'm not sure why that is. The polt timing push went through its time and protoss figured it out, and now a slightly different version of that is completely wrecking toss again. Why? The only difference is subbing a couple tanks for a couple banshees.
In the late game, protoss is still in awesome shape, nothing in the game matches the raw power of HTs and when mixed with collosus its nearly impossible to deal with.
My suggestions: I think that warp prism play IS viable, if you suspect the 1-1-1 push from terran, why not sit up in your base with some sentries and do some zealot warp prism play, if you catch them right after they moved out this can be really devastating while only investing 600minerals. TO make up for the loss at home you simply need to keep the terran out for one or two production cycles, quite doable.
Alterntaively, one of the things I hate to face the most is stargate openings, early voidrays basically force a viking which will delay the push and you can easily snipe a banshee or even the raven possibly with a couple of phenoixes as he tries to push out across the map as they move faster then marines and can easily become separated.
The best counter however I still think is a quick +1 armor and mass zealot with sentries and a couple sentries for GA. FFs behind the marines so they cant escape, zealots engage...game over. I expect the metagame to move this way.
Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die.
MC got destroyed because he's only good at 1-2 base all-ins, and decided to pick the 2nd best player in the gsl IMMVP who is also insanely good. Mvp then picked the 1# player vs protoss. Of course he got destroyed.
Inca made it to the finals of a gsl by cheesing everyone he played. Inca has never won a single pvz in his life. Inca got eliminated by a zerg. Seeing as he has a 0% win rate.... no surprise there.
Anypro lost to a protoss.
Who the hell is vanvanth?
"Well respected foreigners" are garbage compared to koreans. Look at the mlgs. If a plat protoss lost to a master terran would you be qqing about balance?
Alicia tried a risky cheese and missed his forcefield. Then he tried to double expand behind it and just straight up died.
On August 12 2011 00:33 Techno wrote: This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply.
On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote: Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it.
The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all.
Protoss win championships.
My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't.
You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me.
While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races.
Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases.
No Im not making the claim that Protoss players are worse than anyone. Where did I mention Terran? I'm saying we don't need Blizzards intervention. You should think that way, it would help you improve more. Noobs in this thread don't even fucking know. If you were all good Masters players and calmly said specific things without over exagerating than maybe I could take you seriously, but you all act like its so obvious that Protoss sucks fucking ass, but from my perspective Protoss is doing just fine. Terran is doing great in the GM leagues and in GSL, but not an evidently ridiculous amount of great. I strongly believe Protoss can be played MUCH better than anyone currently plays Protoss.
Until Terrans are defending each mineral line against warped in Zealots, Until Protoss are manually charging individual Zealots, Until Protoss are perpetually chronoboosting +3 armour every game (<18:30 bitches), protoss cant say shit
Clearly someone who has never used Zealots or has a limited understanding of how they work. Woops, I cant stay anything until I gain the ability to control 30 zealots individually, my bad.
On August 12 2011 03:03 Talin wrote: I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters.
Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about.
So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and requires more handspeed and precision.
So first of all, how can we split without a spell that would let us outrun the banelings? Protoss still have to try to split stalkers when bane drops happen (although this is stopped most of the time due to fungal growth). Banshee vs marine kiting is comparable to early game stalker kiting of marines as well. And when has a T ever target fired units without overkill...that doesn't make sense at all. And yes I have seen huk and MC micro their blink stalkers pretty damn well, doing 1-3 stalkers at a time wen they have over 15. Protoss also are not all ranged units like Terran units are so the only thing we can really stutter step don't even have high attack speeds like marines/marauders (with and without stim) besides a stalker which is why pros like MC and huk do control them separately. You mentioned how FFs weren't something to be proud of, but if it was so easy why do so many P still not FF perfectly every time, the only ones I've seen are MC and huk, having consistent control over it.
[QUOTE]On August 12 2011 03:03 Talin wrote: [QUOTE]On August 12 2011 02:47 starbreaker10 wrote: [QUOTE]On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
[QUOTE]
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT[/QUOTE]
I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters.
Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about.
So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision.
On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games.[/QUOTE]
I don't really see where you are going with this, I'm afraid. Are you saying that Protoss players at the very top play worse than Terran players at the very top, and thus lose against a 1-1-1 build or variant which required next to no micro, and definetely none of the micro you mentioned?
"Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while."
NASL finals mean nothing to you? The Gigabyte 6 StarsWar tournament? Some of MC's there were of the finest quality Starcraft 2.
On August 12 2011 03:10 WesleyLok wrote: Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die.
It's actually perfectly possible to hold off the 1-1-1 with early 1G expo to 4 Gate / Robo build, especially on distant spawning positions.
On August 12 2011 03:13 SeaSwift wrote: I don't really see where you are going with this, I'm afraid. Are you saying that Protoss players at the very top play worse than Terran players at the very top, and thus lose against a 1-1-1 build or variant which required next to no micro, and definetely none of the micro you mentioned?
I don't even think there are any Protoss players at the very top right now, or at best there's only one who's out of form right now (MC). So yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying, and that scenario is actually pefrectly possible. BW is pretty much the same when it comes to Protoss, except in BW Protoss players have been underwhelming for years with some brief exceptions.
Oh and I wasn't really talking about 1-1-1 specifically (the post I replied to wasn't about that either). It's a prime example of flavor of the month super-strategy that will get solved like all the other 1/2 base timings did, so not really too worried about that at all.
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
He gets knocked out in the Ro32 in the hardest tourney in the world and he's slipping. You people are retarded. Hell oGs should probably just drop him, he has no chance anymore right?
How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Except MC's wins were eons ago. Losira got Code S Finalist last season (we're talking about current performance, not past performance). Also, Losira beat MC straight-up at Columbus. I'm not sure I'd put DRG on that level yet but Losira definitely is currently a bit better in my opinion.
In terms of "star"dom MC is definitely 2nd or 3rd, but in terms of current performance you can't say he's been exactly tearing it up, since his loss to Hongun he hasn't won any kind of boX. Never too late to turn it around but he relly has to push it to another level.
On August 12 2011 03:10 WesleyLok wrote: Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die.
MC got destroyed because he's only good at 1-2 base all-ins, and decided to pick the 2nd best player in the gsl IMMVP who is also insanely good. Mvp then picked the 1# player vs protoss. Of course he got destroyed.
Inca made it to the finals of a gsl by cheesing everyone he played. Inca has never won a single pvz in his life. Inca got eliminated by a zerg. Seeing as he has a 0% win rate.... no surprise there.
Anypro lost to a protoss.
Who the hell is vanvanth?
"Well respected foreigners" are garbage compared to koreans. Look at the mlgs. If a plat protoss lost to a master terran would you be qqing about balance?
Alicia tried a risky cheese and missed his forcefield. Then he tried to double expand behind it and just straight up died.
ROFL. None of the toss that lost to this even did 1 gate expands. Watch the freaking games. MC is the best PvT in the world, see MC vs Puma? yeah guy can only do 1 base all ins. You didn't watch any GSL or you just lack the ability of observation.
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT
I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters.
Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about.
So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and requires more handspeed and precision.
On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games.
On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote: How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here.
What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while.
Yeah man, stutter-stepping, boxing a few units to stim them forward, or picking stuff up with dropships are some really hardcore micro techniques. Seriously, what a joke.
You have a point about marine splits, since that's the only real interesting micro in sc2, along with ling/bling wars. But all of this other stuff is completely basic, any race can do it with almost all of their units. You'd think that 4gate vs 4gate is some amazing micro war, when it's just players pulling back hurt Stalkers and focus firing stuff. None of it is particularly difficult in the end.
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT
I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters.
Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about.
So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision.
On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games.
On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote: How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while.
Forgive me if I think blink micro is more impressive than stutter-step, but I do agree that good splits + target fire with tanks on banelings, and elevating out of forcefields are impressive. I'm not sure if it was intentional but you have pretty much captured part of the 'problem' with Protoss. Toss benefit from good, relatively easy to execute micro abilities up until a point and then hit an upper ceiling with what they can do with these abilities. MC's control is not in dispute as one of, if not the best out of any SC2 player and even he is struggling at the minute vs certain compositions
The deathball/storm abuse syndrome is also a sad necessity. Without AoE Protoss compositions simply cannot compete with the other two races when later tech comes into play. The only times they can are if you have an upgrade advantage with charge against a bio ball, or a zerg stubbornly sends roach after roach into a +2 blink stalker ball
On August 12 2011 03:10 WesleyLok wrote: Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die.
Firstly you don't know how to play pvt, it's very hard to win without expanding vs terran - and unless you die very shortly after expanding it's the best thing you can do.
Secondly, terran can safely 1rax expand vs 4gate if they are careful and defensive.
MC got destroyed because he's only good at 1-2 base all-ins
I'm no pro, and don't really have the experience (gold league nub) to make any type of suggestions, but wouldn't a cannon at the mineral line/ramp, some vrays and zealots not stop this??
On August 12 2011 03:15 Toadvine wrote: You'd think that 4gate vs 4gate is some amazing micro war, when it's just players pulling back hurt Stalkers and focus firing stuff. None of it is particularly difficult in the end.
wtf does that mean? wtf do you think micro is? turning into pure energy and flying inside your computer and becoming one of the units?
On August 12 2011 00:33 Techno wrote: This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply.
On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote: Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it.
The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all.
Protoss win championships.
My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't.
You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me.
While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races.
Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases.
No Im not making the claim that Protoss players are worse than anyone. Where did I mention Terran? I'm saying we don't need Blizzards intervention. You should think that way, it would help you improve more. Noobs in this thread don't even fucking know. If you were all good Masters players and calmly said specific things without over exagerating than maybe I could take you seriously, but you all act like its so obvious that Protoss sucks fucking ass, but from my perspective Protoss is doing just fine. Terran is doing great in the GM leagues and in GSL, but not an evidently ridiculous amount of great. I strongly believe Protoss can be played MUCH better than anyone currently plays Protoss.
Until Terrans are defending each mineral line against warped in Zealots, Until Protoss are manually charging individual Zealots, Until Protoss are perpetually chronoboosting +3 armour every game (<18:30 bitches), protoss cant say shit
Clearly someone who has never used Zealots or has a limited understanding of how they work. Woops, I cant stay anything until I gain the ability to control 30 zealots individually, my bad.
Clearly someone who thinks Protoss is at the peak of their evolution.
It's threads like these that really emphasize what a low level, in respect to play and understanding of the game, most people are on. No wonder these threads all get locked so quickly.
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT
I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters.
Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about.
So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision.
On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games.
On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote: How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while.
This guy is well known for bouncing around threads pouring hate on Protoss players.
Given his heavily biased list of Terran Micro practices in comparison to Protoss techniques, its clear where he comes from. (My favorite is Banshee - Marine kiting, this is a hilarious thing to beat your chest about and be proud about. Stalker - marine? Roach - Zealot? No!! Terran micro is more impressive!) He makes no mention of Phoenix either, which are among the most micro-intensive units in the game. Given how he talks about sentries and stalkers, I'm sure his blink-micro is pristine, and his forcefields have never over-lapped. I'm sure his splitting skills from Terran allow him to make sure each EMP hits no more than one single unit. Again, just ignore him.
Instead of opening a thread like this and allowing such a poster to bash Protoss players and tell them to "step up.", let's not bait flamers like this. (Again take a look at his post history, a good portion of his 200 or so posts a week are patrolling TL for Protoss whine.) Don't indulge him.
Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG)
Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
On August 12 2011 00:33 Techno wrote: This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply.
On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote: Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it.
The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all.
Protoss win championships.
My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't.
You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me.
While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races.
Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases.
No Im not making the claim that Protoss players are worse than anyone. Where did I mention Terran? I'm saying we don't need Blizzards intervention. You should think that way, it would help you improve more. Noobs in this thread don't even fucking know. If you were all good Masters players and calmly said specific things without over exagerating than maybe I could take you seriously, but you all act like its so obvious that Protoss sucks fucking ass, but from my perspective Protoss is doing just fine. Terran is doing great in the GM leagues and in GSL, but not an evidently ridiculous amount of great. I strongly believe Protoss can be played MUCH better than anyone currently plays Protoss.
Until Terrans are defending each mineral line against warped in Zealots, Until Protoss are manually charging individual Zealots, Until Protoss are perpetually chronoboosting +3 armour every game (<18:30 bitches), protoss cant say shit
Please don't use ladder as a means for balance discussion. Master league and GM league players are terrible relative to Korean pros.
Late game Zealots in mineral line is good, but I can't imagine mid game Zealots doing anything. You shouldn't lose a single SCV from Zealots because they can't kill the SCVs fast enough. So unless you're terrible, you will notice it right away. Terran loses some mining time and Protoss just lost a Warp Prism and a few Zealots. Terran can just push right away with a bigger army or take another base right away and still be on equal terms with Protoss.
I dunno how manually charging individual Zealots will be any different from automatically charging Zealots.
Some people do chrono upgrades every game, though I could see room for improvement.
On August 12 2011 03:18 QTIP. wrote: [Instead of opening a thread like this and allowing such a poster to bash Protoss players and tell them to "step up.", let's not bait flamers like this. (Again take a look at his post history, a good portion of his 200 or so posts a week are patrolling TL for Protoss whine.) Don't indulge him.
Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG)
Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
On August 12 2011 03:10 WesleyLok wrote: Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die.
Firstly you don't know how to play pvt, it's very hard to win without expanding vs terran - and unless you die very shortly after expanding it's the best thing you can do.
Secondly, terran can safely 1rax expand vs 4gate if they are careful and defensive.
MC got destroyed because he's only good at 1-2 base all-ins
WOOOOOOOW
*stops replying to the post*
^^ right on, this is the biggest issue for protoss players right now, other races have a standardized defense that can hold any protoss all in, and to be frank they can hold it with an expo, protoss however cannot hold all-ins from other races with a 2nd nexus
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT
I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters.
Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about.
So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision.
On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games.
On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote: How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while.
This guy is well known for bouncing around threads pouring hate on Protoss players.
Given his heavily biased list of Terran Micro practices in comparison to Protoss techniques, its clear where he comes from. (My favorite is Banshee - Marine kiting, this is a hilarious thing to beat your chest about and be proud about. Stalker - marine? Roach - Zealot? No!! Terran micro is more impressive!) He makes no mention of Phoenix either, which are among the most micro-intensive units in the game. Given how he talks about sentries and stalkers, I'm sure his blink-micro is pristine, and his forcefields have never over-lapped. I'm sure his splitting skills from Terran allow him to make sure each EMP hits no more than one single unit.
Instead of opening a thread like this and allowing such a poster to bash Protoss players and tell them to "step up.", let's not bait flamers like this. (Again take a look at his post history, a good portion of his 200 or so posts a week are patrolling TL for Protoss whine.) Don't indulge him.
Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG)
Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
I disagree. This is 5 rax reaper level of retardedness after the warpgate nerfs. There will be no rise, no innovation, this is not a complex style. It's an all in that a protoss can be completely aware of from the beginning of the game, try to hard counter it, and still fail/
On August 12 2011 00:33 Techno wrote: This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply.
On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote: Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it.
The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all.
Protoss win championships.
My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't.
You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me.
While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races.
Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases.
No Im not making the claim that Protoss players are worse than anyone. Where did I mention Terran? I'm saying we don't need Blizzards intervention. You should think that way, it would help you improve more. Noobs in this thread don't even fucking know. If you were all good Masters players and calmly said specific things without over exagerating than maybe I could take you seriously, but you all act like its so obvious that Protoss sucks fucking ass, but from my perspective Protoss is doing just fine. Terran is doing great in the GM leagues and in GSL, but not an evidently ridiculous amount of great. I strongly believe Protoss can be played MUCH better than anyone currently plays Protoss.
Until Terrans are defending each mineral line against warped in Zealots, Until Protoss are manually charging individual Zealots, Until Protoss are perpetually chronoboosting +3 armour every game (<18:30 bitches), protoss cant say shit
Clearly someone who has never used Zealots or has a limited understanding of how they work. Woops, I cant stay anything until I gain the ability to control 30 zealots individually, my bad.
Clearly someone who thinks Protoss is at the peak of their evolution.
No, protoss need to buckle down and come up with some new strats, for sure. Your "advice" on how Protoss should be winning games, however, is useless and adds nothing. Zerg players don't control individual zerglings in a battle. There is not reason for Protoss players to be expected to do so before they can discuss balance.
On August 12 2011 03:10 WesleyLok wrote: Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die.
You clearly don't play Protoss, and presumably don't play Terran had a very high level either. 1-1-1 hits at such a delayed timing after an expansion that it is actually BETTER against it to go for an absurdly greedy Nexus timing. 1 base Protoss just DIES to the 1-1-1, as Terran can just set up a contain and expand safely behind it. See: Naniwa vs Thorzain, TSL finals.
MC got destroyed because he's only good at 1-2 base all-ins, and decided to pick the 2nd best player in the gsl IMMVP who is also insanely good. Mvp then picked the 1# player vs protoss. Of course he got destroyed.
Some very obvious flaws here. MC won his first GSL victory off of some clever 1-2 base timings, but from then on has proved himself as a macro player, creating his own 1gate expand into Stargate vs Zerg and promoting clever macro play vs Zerg in general. I don't think I have seen a cheese from MC vs Zerg since his GSL runs.
Inca made it to the finals of a gsl by cheesing everyone he played. Inca has never won a single pvz in his life. Inca got eliminated by a zerg. Seeing as he has a 0% win rate.... no surprise there.
Nobody is arguing over Inca, he is a PvP sniper and is widely to be inferior to most GSL players. He is now in Group A, so I don't understand what you are arguing over here...
Anypro lost to a protoss.
Who the hell is vanvanth?
"Well respected foreigners" are garbage compared to koreans. Look at the mlgs. If a plat protoss lost to a master terran would you be qqing about balance?
Way to miss the point and carefully put together your own argument about completely irrelevant things. Most of the foreigners who come to GSL aren't Protoss, so your point is nil as far as Protoss is concerned, with only Naniwa/SaSe representing 'toss. Also, I don't know what you are getting at about the plat -> masters reference, the skill difference between the Code A Ro32 and Naniwa, who beat MC in a series and does consistently well even against some Koreans, is pretty hard to guage.
Nobody is really arguing about vanvanth or Anypro, it's mostly about Tassadar, MC and Alicia, as well as the 1-1-1 build in particular.
Alicia tried a risky cheese and missed his forcefield. Then he tried to double expand behind it and just straight up died.
Which game are you talking about? vs Keen, vs NaDa, vs who?
On August 12 2011 03:21 K3Nyy wrote: Please don't use ladder as a means for balance discussion. Master league and GM league players are terrible relative to Korean pros.
What are you responding to here?
On August 12 2011 03:21 K3Nyy wrote: Late game Zealots in mineral line is good, but I can't imagine mid game Zealots doing anything. You shouldn't lose a single SCV from Zealots because they can't kill the SCVs fast enough. So unless you're terrible, you will notice it right away. Terran loses some mining time and Protoss just lost a Warp Prism and a few Zealots.
I would be suprised if IMMVP managed to not lose a single SCV to 1 zealot in a warp prism. Let alone 4.
Terran can just push right away with a bigger army or take another base right away and still be on equal terms with Protoss.
You've probably been on the other end of this argument when QQing Terrans say you can't drop against Protoss because youll just lose the Medivac and Protoss will A Move you. So take what you said there, FLIP IT AROUND, and say it to yourself.
I dunno how manually charging individual Zealots will be any different from automatically charging Zealots.
Yea, YOU DONT! Thats my point.
Some people do chrono upgrades every game, though I could see room for improvement.
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT
I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters.
Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about.
So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision.
On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games.
On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote: How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while.
This guy is well known for bouncing around threads pouring hate on Protoss players.
Given his heavily biased list of Terran Micro practices in comparison to Protoss techniques, its clear where he comes from. (My favorite is Banshee - Marine kiting, this is a hilarious thing to beat your chest about and be proud about. Stalker - marine? Roach - Zealot? No!! Terran micro is more impressive!) He makes no mention of Phoenix either, which are among the most micro-intensive units in the game.
Instead of opening a thread like this and allowing such a poster to bash Protoss players and tell them to "step up.", let's not bait flamers like this. (Again take a look at his post history, a good portion of his 200 or so posts a week are patrolling TL for Protoss whine.) Don't indulge him.
Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG)
Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
Is the JYP series with DRG actually worth checking out? I mean it's hard to know when people are trolling or just plain idiotic on these forums but the posts I read about that made out like DRG was playing idiotically
Anyway, I've tried my best to actually discuss things and it seems to get overshadowed by trolls going "MC isn't a good macro player" etc etc, so back to the topic at hand
Phoenix heavy play as the next evolution of the Protoss metagame? I've seen them either be monstrously effective en masse or terrible, but I've been experimenting with phoenix heavy openers to try and blind counter the dreaded 1/1/1
I've yet to manage to tighten the times sufficiently that I feel I can win when somebody doesn't screw up massively. The strength thus far seems to be in delaying them moving out and allow you to buy time for either your one base army to reach solid numbers, or to have second base economy kicking in
On August 12 2011 03:15 Toadvine wrote: You'd think that 4gate vs 4gate is some amazing micro war, when it's just players pulling back hurt Stalkers and focus firing stuff. None of it is particularly difficult in the end.
wtf does that mean? wtf do you think micro is? turning into pure energy and flying inside your computer and becoming one of the units?
Ling/Baneling vs Ling/Baneling in ZvZ isn't any of the things I mentioned, and it makes for some of the most interesting micro in SC2 imo. Marine splits vs Banelings aren't this either. Look at BW Muta micro or Reaver+Shuttle control. These don't only require hand speed and accuracy, but also technique and experience. It's like Tyler said in a recent SotG episode - there was a whole science dedicated to what you could, and could not do with your Shuttle at various points in the game.
Pulling back hurt Stalkers is the most basic micro possible, you can do it with any ranged unit essentially. Some players just control their units really well in general, and that can be impressive, but SC2 really doesn't have a whole lot of interesting micro. Instead we have "amazing Storms/Fungals/EMPs!" in every battle. :/
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT
I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters.
Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about.
So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and requires more handspeed and precision.
On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games.
On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote: How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here.
What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while.
Yeah man, stutter-stepping, boxing a few units to stim them forward, or picking stuff up with dropships are some really hardcore micro techniques. Seriously, what a joke.
You have a point about marine splits, since that's the only real interesting micro in sc2, along with ling/bling wars. But all of this other stuff is completely basic, any race can do it with almost all of their units. You'd think that 4gate vs 4gate is some amazing micro war, when it's just players pulling back hurt Stalkers and focus firing stuff. None of it is particularly difficult in the end.
The whole point is that any race can do it with almost all their units. It's basic in nature (it's a mechanical challenge, not an intellectual one), but essentially that's what micro really is - it's high level when it's done near-perfectly while not slipping up in other areas of the game.
Pulling back and focus firing is a skill that's a lot more difficult to master and do well enough than spellcasting in SC2. 4G vs 4G is actually the finest example of Protoss micro, much more so than Blink or Forcefields (to compare it on a very basic level, just count the actions and precision you need for each).
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT
I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters.
Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about.
So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision.
On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games.
On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote: How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while.
This guy is well known for bouncing around threads pouring hate on Protoss players.
Given his heavily biased list of Terran Micro practices in comparison to Protoss techniques, its clear where he comes from. (My favorite is Banshee - Marine kiting, this is a hilarious thing to beat your chest about and be proud about. Stalker - marine? Roach - Zealot? No!! Terran micro is more impressive!) He makes no mention of Phoenix either, which are among the most micro-intensive units in the game. Given how he talks about sentries and stalkers, I'm sure his blink-micro is pristine, and his forcefields have never over-lapped. I'm sure his splitting skills from Terran allow him to make sure each EMP hits no more than one single unit.
Instead of opening a thread like this and allowing such a poster to bash Protoss players and tell them to "step up.", let's not bait flamers like this. (Again take a look at his post history, a good portion of his 200 or so posts a week are patrolling TL for Protoss whine.) Don't indulge him.
Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG)
Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
I disagree. This is 5 rax reaper level of retardedness after the warpgate nerfs. There will be no rise, no innovation, this is not a complex style. It's an all in that a protoss can be completely aware of from the beginning of the game, try to hard counter it, and still fail/
Maybe its insanely retarded like you say, but it's still too early to tell. (Don't get me wrong, I don't like seeing my favorite players lose to it either)
Trials and Tribulations are what make a player and spurs a race's metagame into rapid development. A patch may be the final and possibly only solution, but there is no doubt that Protoss players will come out stronger from this. It sucks to wait, but when it all turns around it'll make it that much better.
On August 12 2011 00:33 Techno wrote: This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply.
On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote: Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it.
The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all.
Protoss win championships.
My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't.
You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me.
While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races.
Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases.
No Im not making the claim that Protoss players are worse than anyone. Where did I mention Terran? I'm saying we don't need Blizzards intervention. You should think that way, it would help you improve more. Noobs in this thread don't even fucking know. If you were all good Masters players and calmly said specific things without over exagerating than maybe I could take you seriously, but you all act like its so obvious that Protoss sucks fucking ass, but from my perspective Protoss is doing just fine. Terran is doing great in the GM leagues and in GSL, but not an evidently ridiculous amount of great. I strongly believe Protoss can be played MUCH better than anyone currently plays Protoss.
Until Terrans are defending each mineral line against warped in Zealots, Until Protoss are manually charging individual Zealots, Until Protoss are perpetually chronoboosting +3 armour every game (<18:30 bitches), protoss cant say shit
Clearly someone who has never used Zealots or has a limited understanding of how they work. Woops, I cant stay anything until I gain the ability to control 30 zealots individually, my bad.
Clearly someone who thinks Protoss is at the peak of their evolution.
No, protoss need to buckle down and come up with some new strats, for sure. Your "advice" on how Protoss should be winning games, however, is useless and adds nothing. Zerg players don't control individual zerglings in a battle. There is not reason for Protoss players to be expected to do so before they can discuss balance.
Hmm. It appears we are in agreement. Sorry I must have misrepresented my point.
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT
I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters.
Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about.
So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision.
On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games.
On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote: How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while.
This guy is well known for bouncing around threads pouring hate on Protoss players.
Given his heavily biased list of Terran Micro practices in comparison to Protoss techniques, its clear where he comes from. (My favorite is Banshee - Marine kiting, this is a hilarious thing to beat your chest about and be proud about. Stalker - marine? Roach - Zealot? No!! Terran micro is more impressive!) He makes no mention of Phoenix either, which are among the most micro-intensive units in the game.
Instead of opening a thread like this and allowing such a poster to bash Protoss players and tell them to "step up.", let's not bait flamers like this. (Again take a look at his post history, a good portion of his 200 or so posts a week are patrolling TL for Protoss whine.) Don't indulge him.
Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG)
Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
Is the JYP series with DRG actually worth checking out? I mean it's hard to know when people are trolling or just plain idiotic on these forums but the posts I read about that made out like DRG was playing idiotically
Anyway, I've tried my best to actually discuss things and it seems to get overshadowed by trolls going "MC isn't a good macro player" etc etc, so back to the topic at hand
Phoenix heavy play as the next evolution of the Protoss metagame? I've seen them either be monstrously effective en masse or terrible, but I've been experimenting with phoenix heavy openers to try and blind counter the dreaded 1/1/1
I've yet to manage to tighten the times sufficiently that I feel I can win when somebody doesn't screw up massively. The strength thus far seems to be in delaying them moving out and allow you to buy time for either your one base army to reach solid numbers, or to have second base economy kicking in
Yes, it is most certainly a series worth checking out.
The only game where I thought DRG made a huge blunder was Game 3 by not scouting.
However, Games 1 / 2 show Protoss play that I guarantee you have not seen on a consistent basis. As a Protoss player, you have to appreciate JYP. He's one of the few players that actually has the balls to play like he did in a televised match and against a powerful opponent. It looked very impressive and extremely difficult to execute.
If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
everywhere the protoss players falling can anyone explain my why DRG did that shit 6pool and others things ? seems he WANTED to lose so no protoss buff incoming (kidding ^^)
On August 12 2011 03:36 koolaid1990 wrote: If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
no. Terran expand and then move out little later with even more tanks and stimmed marines. Colosus does not do well vs banshee and tank, colos are good vs marines but not when there's only a few colo and 6-7 tanks + 6-7+ banshees. It becomes FKN STUPID when terran gets 7+ banshee. I think the best way to stop it is get 1 gate expand and just mass units, and get +1 armor really quick... 1 Base play is not the answer.
On August 12 2011 03:36 koolaid1990 wrote: If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
On August 12 2011 03:10 WesleyLok wrote: Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die.
You clearly don't play Protoss, and presumably don't play Terran had a very high level either. 1-1-1 hits at such a delayed timing after an expansion that it is actually BETTER against it to go for an absurdly greedy Nexus timing. 1 base Protoss just DIES to the 1-1-1, as Terran can just set up a contain and expand safely behind it. See: Naniwa vs Thorzain, TSL finals.
EDIT: Can we please either close this thread or remove the shit from it/ban the players who just repeat the same nonsense and add in text at the top saying: "Do not mention Protoss greediness and recommend 1 base play" along with some general stuff about not writing crap?
Stop whining, just give it some time. Protoss will figure something out .
Remember when zergs were complaining about 5-rax reaper, then metagame shifted and they came up with new ideas and counters to that shit. Terrans barely use reapers nowadays.
Obviously, I'm trolling. But I hate those "l2p" guys. 1/1/1 was already strong in the beginning, after wg nerf it became even stronger. I can't think of any way beating this except gambling or cheesing.
On August 12 2011 03:36 koolaid1990 wrote: If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
On August 12 2011 03:10 WesleyLok wrote: Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die.
You clearly don't play Protoss, and presumably don't play Terran had a very high level either. 1-1-1 hits at such a delayed timing after an expansion that it is actually BETTER against it to go for an absurdly greedy Nexus timing. 1 base Protoss just DIES to the 1-1-1, as Terran can just set up a contain and expand safely behind it. See: Naniwa vs Thorzain, TSL finals.
EDIT: Can we please either close this thread or remove the shit from it/ban the players who just repeat the same nonsense and add in text at the top saying: "Do not mention Protoss greediness and recommend 1 base play" along with some general stuff about not writing crap?
Your just as bad with your responses, It would be a better solution if you had to plug your sc2 ranks profile into your profile and there was a masters only forum.
On August 12 2011 03:36 koolaid1990 wrote: If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
Idk if you play the same game but there's basically no way that P can know for sure if T is 1 basing until they get an ob. Terrans can build a CC in base (shit they can even make it an Orbital before lifting) so by the time you know, P has either: 1) expanded 2) not expanded
If 1), then it will most likely die to 1-1-1, but likely even with a T expo. If 2), then it will be behind a T expo and still does not guarantee victory vs 1-1-1 since you cannot go both Stargate and Robotics on one base.
I think this had a lot to do with the lack of scouting. When that first Marine gets built, then P has no way to scout until they get Robo or Hallucinate. For me personally I prefer Robo since Observers are needed for cloaked Banshees and it is an essential tech path to not dying when the bio ball has grown in number. Observers (even "safe" builds like 1gate robo) are slow as hell though so many times P cannot scout T until it is too late. Many times even the threat of banshees will cause me to make 2 Observers since you are dead unless you keep one at home if the T is at all competent with Banshee micro.
I love all these guys saying you need to use a warp prism. Its like those terrans saying zerg needs to use nydus worms back when 5rx reaper was still around.
I also love all the players who suggest you stay on 1 base when you suspect 1-1-1. You will be contained and with MULE's oversaturation ( if you dont know what it means dont reply ) Toss is in trouble. The warpgate and void ray nerfs made Protoss early game weaker than it was and terran can get away with going 1-1-1 in all of its forms without getting punished for it. They also have bunkers to defend against any incoming protoss crap. Protoss only has forcefields.. Standard MMMGV vs Toss is fine, although Protoss doesn't feel as dynamic as Terran and does not have as many harassment abilties. PvZ is even a bigger isue in high level play. The problem with toss in PvT is the warpgate/void ray nerf, the lack of harassment and the reliance on colossus/HT.
On August 12 2011 03:43 bokeevboke wrote: Stop whining, just give it some time. Protoss will figure something out .
Remember when zergs were complaining about 5-rax reaper, then metagame shifted and they came up with new ideas and counters to that shit. Terrans barely use reapers nowadays.
Obviously, I'm trolling. But I hate those "l2p" guys. 1/1/1 was already strong in the beginning, after wg nerf it became even stronger. I can't think of any way beating this except gambling or cheesing.
This is literally the single dumbest post i have ever read. I feel like I should frame it and put it up on my wall or something.
On August 12 2011 03:43 statikg wrote: Your just as bad with your responses, It would be a better solution if you had to plug your sc2 ranks profile into your profile and there was a masters only forum.
I'd rather not have the discussion here, but if you feel I'm being ignorant or aggressive or something please feel free to have a PM convo with me about it
I put up evidence to support my assertions (as I said, Naniwa vs Thorzain), and you can also look in the Strategy Forum for the Guide to defend the 1-1-1 in which numerous blue posters have written stuff about it. You'll find there some of the rubbish people write on how to defend it, and how you really defend it, and you HAVE to expand.
"If you were all good Masters players and calmly said specific things without over exagerating than maybe I could take you seriously, but you all act like its so obvious that Protoss sucks fucking ass, but from my perspective Protoss is doing just fine. Terran is doing great in the GM leagues and in GSL,"
I would be suprised if IMMVP managed to not lose a single SCV to 1 zealot in a warp prism. Let alone 4.
You give him way too little credit then. Even if they got 1 SCV kill, it still would not be worth the cost of the Warp Prism. And the opportunity cost of making a warp prism early in mid game instead of an immortal can be costly if Terran decides to push.
You've probably been on the other end of this argument when QQing Terrans say you can't drop against Protoss because youll just lose the Medivac and Protoss will A Move you. So take what you said there, FLIP IT AROUND, and say it to yourself.
Zealots need to be melee range to hit anything and their DPS is way less than stimmed MM. Also, if Protoss warps in a small group to try to take care of the drop, the MMM will still win because of how ineffective gateway units are vs MMM, especially with the Medivac healing. You can't flip it around and say that 4 zealots will beat a small group of MM.
Also, MMM can take out buildings, Zealots can't. All they can do is harass your mineral line.
On August 12 2011 03:36 koolaid1990 wrote: If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
I agree that gate-FE is very greed and I wondered why people did it for some time. However, the issue is that with a solid wall in, the terran can deny the protoss any scouting. Which means he could be going for a 1 rax-FE or 1-1-1(or any other build). The only way to get sight up into the main is with an obs, SG or some other sort of flying unit. There is a huge differance between a 1 gate FE and 3 gate robo. If you guess wrong, the protoss could be really behind and be forced to all-in.
I want to make it clear, I do mean deny scouting. The terran can actively deny the Protoss from getting information with reasonable building placement and unit control. This is the one big weakness of Protoss early game, the ability to get really solid information without getting locked into a tech path that may lose them the game. This is highlighted in PvP, which is a match up with a lot of mindgames.
On August 12 2011 03:38 CoR wrote: everywhere the protoss players falling can anyone explain my why DRG did that shit 6pool and others things ? seems he WANTED to lose so no protoss buff incoming (kidding ^^)
6pool is a pretty good gamble on Taldarim, he got unlucky that he was scouted first (otherwise he could have quite likely instantly won), and it forces so much defense to hold without a choke that economically he wasn't behind.
He lost that game more from being really haphazard with his units and not being ready for the VR tech switch imo.
The expo to gold was a fine move, but blindly going hydra was a gamble to bust the P natural. P can't punish that gold expo after a forge expand so, while greedy, it's not all that unsafe - when P's timing push arrived, it would have killed DRG even if he had taken standard bases because his unit comp was terrible (and he would have had less money).
So I'm guessing DRG is just mixing it up with really calculated risks.
On August 12 2011 03:36 koolaid1990 wrote: If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
This post is so wrong I can feel my brain cells actually dying... even if you know for sure its a 1-1-1 all in, you still only have maybe a 70/30(60/40 at best) chance of holding it off. with a 3 gate robo. not due to lack of units, merely the unit composition of the 1-1-1 basically hard counters all toss early tech options. Rush to collosi leaves you with to little gateway units, straight gateway units will never hold it, and if you make immortals that's taking away from stalkers and then banshees will just lol all over your base.
All this being said, it may not be OP, maybe toss needs to try stargate openings against Terran? but its a heavy investment and I'm not sure if you can have enough pheonix/VR's out in time to hold it... we will have to wait and see...
But to say "Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy" and claim that's why we lose is fucking ignorant and shows your complete lack of knowledge... so kindly GTFO
I love how basicly everyone says MC was just doing old stuff better than other toss' were and won becouse of that. How many openings/builds there are that he actually didn't make popular? He was the first one to crush terrans with 1 base VR all-ins and 6 gates ages ago. VR expand in PvZ? Yea, that too. Even SG expands vs terran lately that no-one else does (Actually that might be pretty decent vs 1/1/1 with some tweaking). In PvP robo into blink without colossus came from OGS house aswell.
If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
3 gate robo before expo? VS terran who can do what ever the fuck he wants becouse he can? Yea, you might win all-ins but lose every other game becouse you get natural when his getting his 5th... All-in that comes 5 mins after you throw down nexus and ~1.5mins after fully saturating the base should never be even close to killing someone. It's like doing 1 base colossus vs 1 rax expo, except that it works.
On August 12 2011 03:36 koolaid1990 wrote: If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
This post is so wrong I can feel my brain cells actually dying... even if you know for sure its a 1-1-1 all in, you still only have maybe a 70/30(60/40 at best) chance of holding it off. with a 3 gate robo. not due to lack of units, merely the unit composition of the 1-1-1 basically hard counters all toss early tech options. Rush to collosi leaves you with to little gateway units, straight gateway units will never hold it, and if you make immortals that's taking away from stalkers and then banshees will just lol all over your base.
All this being said, it may not be OP, maybe toss needs to try stargate openings against Terran? but its a heavy investment and I'm not sure if you can have enough pheonix/VR's out in time to hold it... we will have to wait and see...
But to say "Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy" and claim that's why we lose is fucking ignorant and shows your complete lack of knowledge... so kindly GTFO
I've been messing around the Stargate options but it just doesn't feel as robust as Robo options. 1) If you go Stargate you can't go Robo off one base therefore you have to use Phoenix to scout. 2) If you reveal Phoenix before critical mass it's hard to do any damage to econ. 3) I can't do shit vs Terrans who say "well fuck it im just going to kill him" since no gas for sentries.
Obviously I don't have MC's macro or multitask but I feel Stargate relies a lot on the Terran never seeing it before or making a lot of mistakes.
Edit: I missed something so obvious, not going Robo means 1-2 cloaked Banshees rapes your probe line so hard that it's like a free loss.
On August 12 2011 03:39 Techno wrote: I made a picture for u guys
haha that's bullshit if you have enough chargelots to surround his bio with them you will win one way or another sadly that's not the case. instead it's terran that always has more stuff at any point in the game and also a up to 100 dmg instant dmg aoe spell. 'bu.. but it DOES NOT KILL!!' that's the dumbest thing i ever heard. guess what your drugged psychopaths with machine guns do. and they get healed also. imagine what if you just hit one storm on your opponents army - actually scratch that, imagine all you had to do was hit ONE RANDOMLY PLACED FORCE FIELD in the opponents army. ONE. and now you have instantly won the game? does that sound fair to you?
HM???
not even talking about 1-1-1 here that shit is a whole other level of retardation. best build to try and beat this is quick nexus 4 gate robo immortal zealot sentry while cutting probes around 35 and even then it's fucking hard to do.
and even if you do hold it off you still haven't won the game yet cause blizzard thought it would be a good idea to give complete invulnerability to terrans that are somewhat close to one of their bases. (pf, bunkers, repair, scvs, close to 50 units at once production)
Oh goody another thread for protoss the vent off in. I know you may mean good intentions OP, but this thread will just be balance whine until it gets closed.
you think we don't have the need to vent? just look at all the shit that protoss has to endure. and there are STILL people who honestly believe that protoss is op.
the amount of retarded shit written is this thread is fucking unbearable. 'terrans win more games because theyre better look at protoss they dont have anyone who wins any games' MAYBE THATS THE WHOLE POINT YOU FUCKING RETARD. THEY DO THE RIGHT SHIT AND STILL LOSE. if i do a 1v1 against nestea and start with 200 supply while he spawns with a hatch and some drones as usual and then i beat him that doesnt mean that FUCK, NESTEA NEEDS TO GET HIS SHIT TOGETHER I TOTALLY OUTPLAYED HIM. you know why? because the game was imbalanced to begin with.
BOY OH BOY, THAT CONCEPT SURE IS HARD TO WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND RIGHT ???
I remember that zerg were complaining about 3 base protoss and 200/200 armies and protoss players were telling them to "figure stuff out" themselves. Then infestor got a buff and protoss was nerfed.
Now protoss is in the same position and other races tell them to "figure it out" and move on already.
The difference and main problem is that the games are like 10 minutes long, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out a counter. Your decision tree is not very wide or deep, you can only do so much on 1 base, unlike zerg who had literally all the map available, infinite resources and expand, and all tech unlocked. Everybody knows that expanding and heavy teching is very dangerous and leads to a very low unit count anyway.
So it's either fast expand and mass up units to overwhelm the push or some kind of smart magical tech off one base. We have seen robo, stargate + Twilight tech, stargate with gateway all in, colossus after expand, DTs (haha). It's time to admit that we're kind of screwed. To what extreme are we supposed to go? One base carrier rush? 4 gate + Robo colossus + Stargate phoenix? Storm and chargelots +1 armor off one base?
I'm not whining for a "nerf" or a "buff" of my race, but people just need to admit that there are fundamental design flaws in protoss, for it to be called the easiest race yet lose to the same dumb all in over and over again.
And I'm talking about PvZ, which is more watchable, but a bit one sided as of late (stats-wise). Don't try to 6 pool or gold rush and a zerg has a very good chance to just own a protoss straight up.
Where did this sudden "protoss cannot win against 1/1/1 builds" come from?
The build is really old, and I was under the impression protoss had it figured out by now. The different components of the push (tank/raven/banshee/marine)haven't been buffed.
And protoss didn't get any nerfs towards the things that can counter this (immortal/voidray/etc, because afaik voidray speed nerf happened a really long time ago).
I don't really see how the WG nerf can affect this in terms of defence, since the push hits around 8/9mins, and by then, after the WG change you should have warpgates.
The only thing I can think off is that agressive WG timings got worse, so terrans are more likely to do this, but that doesn't change the speed/power of the push (since it was "standard" to get a bunker before that).
So anyone that can explain to me why this has become such a big problem in the last couple of days/weeks? (haven't been watching a lot of gsl).
(this isn't a "lolol nothing has changed l2p post, I'm just really wondering what has changed and how it affected this)
On August 12 2011 04:28 hi im new wrote: you think we don't have the need to vent? just look at all the shit that protoss has to endure. and there are STILL people who honestly believe that protoss is op.
the amount of retarded shit written is this thread is fucking unbearable. 'terrans win more games because theyre better look at protoss they dont have anyone who wins any games' MAYBE THATS THE WHOLE POINT YOU FUCKING RETARD. THEY DO THE RIGHT SHIT AND STILL LOSE. if i do a 1v1 against nestea and start with 200 supply while he spawns with a hatch and some drones as usual and then i beat him that doesnt mean that FUCK, NESTEA NEEDS TO GET HIS SHIT TOGETHER I TOTALLY OUTPLAYED HIM. you know why? because the game was imbalanced to begin with.
BOY OH BOY, THAT CONCEPT SURE IS HARD TO WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND RIGHT ???
On August 12 2011 04:29 Icx wrote:So anyone that can explain to me why this has become such a big problem in the last couple of days/weeks? (haven't been watching a lot of gsl).
(this isn't a "lolol nothing has changed l2p post, I'm just really wondering what has changed and how it affected this)
WG research speed got nerfed twice and just because you get the WG up, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt us. Faster WG research means more units on the field and not only that, it would mean faster aggression from our side, which would otherwise delay the push.
On August 12 2011 04:34 purecarnagge wrote: what if zealots cost 75 minerals and gateways increased by 25 minerals?
quick on the fly theory
I say this because protoss doesn't have a harassment unit really early in the game, and they lack numbers to push out effectively.
This wouldn't make Zealot an harass unit ( they still have low dps, low mobility). It would just make them overpowered.
Honestly i think the easiest solution is just to nerf all terran early pushes by making marine hp 40 before shields. That would make Stalker and Immortal a lot better early game without changing anything for mid-game and after.
On August 12 2011 04:29 Icx wrote: I'm still wondering about this.
Where did this sudden "protoss cannot win against 1/1/1 builds" come from?
The build is really old, and I was under the impression protoss had it figured out by now. The different components of the push (tank/raven/banshee/marine)haven't been buffed.
And protoss didn't get any nerfs towards the things that can counter this (immortal/voidray/etc, because afaik voidray speed nerf happened a really long time ago).
I don't really see how the WG nerf can affect this in terms of defence, since the push hits around 8/9mins, and by then, after the WG change you should have warpgates.
The only thing I can think off is that agressive WG timings got worse, so terrans are more likely to do this, but that doesn't change the speed/power of the push (since it was "standard" to get a bunker before that).
So anyone that can explain to me why this has become such a big problem in the last couple of days/weeks? (haven't been watching a lot of gsl).
(this isn't a "lolol nothing has changed l2p post, I'm just really wondering what has changed and how it affected this)
It has always been strong, except its now popularized by usage in the GSL, and its not like there is no solution, its just that the solution relies on imperfect information. That information being whether or not he has a marnie shooting at you as you bump into his ramp, or barracks count etc.
Nevermind the fact that terran can be expanding after you confirm its a tech build. It doesn't even need to be a 1-1-1 either, and instead this marauder expand/ghost/viking 12 minute push.
Problems result from how flexible terran is and what they can do pre 10 minutes-where misreads result in a disadvantage or outright death.
On August 12 2011 03:39 Techno wrote: I made a picture for u guys
I'm pretty sure that would actually be 100 times worse than just letting them automatically charge in because the zealots charging for the backunits would be killed before they even reach them to hit them once.
On August 12 2011 03:39 Techno wrote: I made a picture for u guys
It is virtually physically impossible for a human to individually charge a large number zealots in a battle. Each zealot requires 3 actions to do a manual charge with. Say you have 300 effective apm, then with a group of 10 zealots, it takes 30 actions, requiring 6 seconds to perform. Bump the number of zealots to a reasonable number late game - even 30, now it takes you 18 seconds to do it. What'll happen is your zealots will basically charge to their deaths one at a time in a battle. Consider that during those 18 seconds, you can't do other actions such as macro or cast spells.
Players obviously prioritize on how to spend their limited apm, so charging individual zealots is not a reasonable option.
On August 12 2011 04:29 Icx wrote:So anyone that can explain to me why this has become such a big problem in the last couple of days/weeks? (haven't been watching a lot of gsl).
(this isn't a "lolol nothing has changed l2p post, I'm just really wondering what has changed and how it affected this)
WG research speed got nerfed twice and just because you get the WG up, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt us. Faster WG research means more units on the field and not only that, it would mean faster aggression from our side, which would otherwise delay the push.
Okay so where are the numbers for that, either I'm just a complete dumbass, but let's say you chronoboost as much on the nexus as before the patch.
For example by the 8min mark you have mined 2000 minerals in total, and spent 1500mins on units,500mins on tech that hasn't changed right? I mean as long as when the push hits there aren't any more units in production in normal warpgates, and your warpgates are up you should have the exact same amount of units by that point giving "perfect" macro.
The only thing I can think off here is that after the patch you have to chronoboost gateways more to get out key units, so less chrono's on the nexus, but if you scout a 1/1/1, you don't have to worry about early marauder pressure anyway, but that is a whole other point (scouting issues).
So in my reasoning, it still only affects agressive WG timings.
(just really curious in general how the 1/1/1 build just flared up like this, not trying to argue wether or not it's to strong)
On August 12 2011 04:29 Icx wrote: I'm still wondering about this.
Where did this sudden "protoss cannot win against 1/1/1 builds" come from?
The build is really old, and I was under the impression protoss had it figured out by now. The different components of the push (tank/raven/banshee/marine)haven't been buffed.
And protoss didn't get any nerfs towards the things that can counter this (immortal/voidray/etc, because afaik voidray speed nerf happened a really long time ago).
I don't really see how the WG nerf can affect this in terms of defence, since the push hits around 8/9mins, and by then, after the WG change you should have warpgates.
The only thing I can think off is that agressive WG timings got worse, so terrans are more likely to do this, but that doesn't change the speed/power of the push (since it was "standard" to get a bunker before that).
So anyone that can explain to me why this has become such a big problem in the last couple of days/weeks? (haven't been watching a lot of gsl).
(this isn't a "lolol nothing has changed l2p post, I'm just really wondering what has changed and how it affected this)
For one, you're right, protoss' offensive power has been nerfed heavily with the WG nerf so terran can do almost every build he wants, not like we can do anything. (Remember MC vs Puma last game, Puma CC first, MC korean 4gate, but the warp in didn't come in time, whereas it would have with the old WG timing, and Puma had a bunker after that.)
Then I've always seen Protoss get completely crushed by this all in: Thorzain used it his fair share in the TSL3 Finals. Tester (at that time the best protoss) was kept from the GSL Open two seasons in a row because he encountered that build in the qualifiers.
Now Terran seem to have noticed that protoss players generally have trouble holding this and cannot possibly punish heavy teching (and I say trouble I mean a 90% winrate) and start spamming it to get free wins: see all the SlayerS players, Yoda, etc.. Is it imbalanced? I don't know, but it sure seems one sided as of late.
On August 12 2011 04:29 Icx wrote: I'm still wondering about this.
Where did this sudden "protoss cannot win against 1/1/1 builds" come from?
The build is really old, and I was under the impression protoss had it figured out by now. The different components of the push (tank/raven/banshee/marine)haven't been buffed.
And protoss didn't get any nerfs towards the things that can counter this (immortal/voidray/etc, because afaik voidray speed nerf happened a really long time ago).
I don't really see how the WG nerf can affect this in terms of defence, since the push hits around 8/9mins, and by then, after the WG change you should have warpgates.
The only thing I can think off is that agressive WG timings got worse, so terrans are more likely to do this, but that doesn't change the speed/power of the push (since it was "standard" to get a bunker before that).
So anyone that can explain to me why this has become such a big problem in the last couple of days/weeks? (haven't been watching a lot of gsl).
(this isn't a "lolol nothing has changed l2p post, I'm just really wondering what has changed and how it affected this)
It has always been strong, except its now popularized by usage in the GSL, and its not like there is no solution, its just that the solution relies on imperfect information. That information being whether or not he has a marnie shooting at you as you bump into his ramp, or barracks count etc.
Nevermind the fact that terran can be expanding after you confirm its a tech build. It doesn't even need to be a 1-1-1 either, and instead this marauder expand/ghost/viking 12 minute push.
Problems result from how flexible terran is and what they can do pre 10 minutes-where misreads result in a disadvantage or outright death.
I don't think it has to do with misreads, I think it has to do with terran making a unit composition that protoss cannot counter within the given timeframe.
On August 12 2011 04:29 ZenithM wrote: I remember that zerg were complaining about 3 base protoss and 200/200 armies and protoss players were telling them to "figure stuff out" themselves. Then infestor got a buff and protoss was nerfed.
Now protoss is in the same position and other races tell them to "figure it out" and move on already.
The difference and main problem is that the games are like 10 minutes long, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out a counter. Your decision tree is not very wide or deep, you can only do so much on 1 base, unlike zerg who had literally all the map available, infinite resources and expand, and all tech unlocked. Everybody knows that expanding and heavy teching is very dangerous and leads to a very low unit count anyway.
So it's either fast expand and mass up units to overwhelm the push or some kind of smart magical tech off one base. We have seen robo, stargate + Twilight tech, stargate with gateway all in, colossus after expand, DTs (haha). It's time to admit that we're kind of screwed. To what extreme are we supposed to go? One base carrier rush? 4 gate + Robo colossus + Stargate phoenix? Storm and chargelots +1 armor off one base?
I'm not whining for a "nerf" or a "buff" of my race, but people just need to admit that there are fundamental design flaws in protoss, for it to be called the easiest race yet lose to the same dumb all in over and over again.
And I'm talking about PvZ, which is more watchable, but a bit one sided as of late (stats-wise). Don't try to 6 pool or gold rush and a zerg has a very good chance to just own a protoss straight up.
PvZ didn't really change because of the infestor fungal buff. It added new depth to zerg, and an incredible powerful lategame broodlord / infestor combo. But it changed because zergs realized roach hydra corrupter is terrible, and that they can micro their units. Other compositions are indefinitely more powerful than roach hydra corrupter. The only thing the fungal buff did was to remind zergs that the infestor is powerful, and neural parasite and infested terrans are actually really really good spells.
On August 12 2011 04:34 purecarnagge wrote: what if zealots cost 75 minerals and gateways increased by 25 minerals?
quick on the fly theory
I say this because protoss doesn't have a harassment unit really early in the game, and they lack numbers to push out effectively.
This wouldn't make Zealot an harass unit ( they still have low dps, low mobility). It would just make them overpowered.
Honestly i think the easiest solution is just to nerf all terran early pushes by making marine hp 40 before shields. That would make Stalker and Immortal a lot better early game without changing anything for mid-game and after.
On August 12 2011 04:43 Icx wrote: (just really curious in general how the 1/1/1 build just flared up like this, not trying to argue wether or not it's to strong)
plenty of players(including me) have always been saying 1/1/1 is ridiculous and borderline impossible to stop if done well. I don't think pro players like to complain about such things because they are pros and it's their responsibility to be finding ways to deal with stuff, not complaining about it.
I think some protoss don't realize how strong it is because they weren't playing at a high enough level to have it done very well against them, or they watched a protoss pro streaming and the pro stopped it - but they don't realize how extremely badly the pro outplayed their terran competition.
Okay, thanks for the responses so far,was just trying to wrap my head around what changes could have had any effect on this, but it seems like this is just a case of a strong build getting more popular, similar how certain units aren't used that much untill people realize their potential.
I remember that zerg were complaining about 3 base protoss and 200/200 armies and protoss players were telling them to "figure stuff out" themselves. Then infestor got a buff and protoss was nerfed
.
Yeah it was not my intention to say that the buff was a logical consequence of the whining. Just a simple fact as it surely must have helped a bit in the PvZ balance.
I think the solution for protoss harass is to give the warp prism more shields and maybe take away some health.At the moment, warp prisms have 100 health and 40 Shields. I think giving it 150 Shields and 50 Health would be a proper choice.
Things like storm drops or sentry drops + warping in zealots are really effective but the warp prism itself is just sooo fragile.
Hmm, ive given this some thought and how viable is a 1gate stargate expo opening with a fast voidray for harassment? wouldnt this counter the 1/1/1 allin pretty well? voidray does well against non stimmed marines and you could harass the edges of the terran base a bit using some stalkers and a void ray for vision, or am i just talking nonsense here?
On August 12 2011 04:34 purecarnagge wrote: what if zealots cost 75 minerals and gateways increased by 25 minerals?
quick on the fly theory
I say this because protoss doesn't have a harassment unit really early in the game, and they lack numbers to push out effectively.
This wouldn't make Zealot an harass unit ( they still have low dps, low mobility). It would just make them overpowered.
Honestly i think the easiest solution is just to nerf all terran early pushes by making marine hp 40 before shields. That would make Stalker and Immortal a lot better early game without changing anything for mid-game and after.
and your zerg solution is? its not just PvT.
PvZ is still pretty volatile, i wouldn't change it right now. PvT on the other hand has seen Terran always on top for 6 month (since the nerf on KA) and is now a downright bad matchup with so many games ending early on with timing pushes.
On August 12 2011 04:57 RealQ wrote: Hmm, ive given this some thought and how viable is a 1gate stargate expo opening with a fast voidray for harassment? wouldnt this counter the 1/1/1 allin pretty well? voidray does well against non stimmed marines and you could harass the edges of the terran base a bit using some stalkers and a void ray for vision, or am i just talking nonsense here?
Actually I've thought about that too, 1 gate stargate as a macro opening.
I go gas first, core, stargate right after that, 1 phoenix to scout all the terran base and 1 void ray after that to be safe. Based on scouting I choose to expand, or stay on one base.
Problem is I don't play against GSL-caliber players obviously, and I can actually defend their 1-1-1 with a 1 gate FE pretty easily so it's not very relevant :D
MC losing in GSL had nothing to do with protoss being suddenly weak, he could have punished Mvp for taking a really early expo into 1-1-1, I think Mvp even made his CC on lowground with only 1 bunker. When he lost against Noblesse his stalkers were in a bad position, Noblesse's factory baiting around soaking stalker hits and 1 base timing with medivac, MC didn't have enough units to hold his expo. That's the way I see it at least.
On August 12 2011 04:57 RealQ wrote: Hmm, ive given this some thought and how viable is a 1gate stargate expo opening with a fast voidray for harassment? wouldnt this counter the 1/1/1 allin pretty well? voidray does well against non stimmed marines and you could harass the edges of the terran base a bit using some stalkers and a void ray for vision, or am i just talking nonsense here?
Its an option, but consider the same situation where you have the 1-1-1 all-in coming. The Terran has a Starport up, so he can make a Viking and your pressure has issues straight away. That would push the VR far enough back to allow the marines/siege tanks down, and the push continues, albeit delayed because of making 1 Viking
Continuing the theorycrafting, what about the same build, but change VRs to phoenix? Yes they die pretty badly to marines, but if you can get lifts off on the tanks, would it not give your gateway army enough time to get into the fight without dying to tank fire?
On August 12 2011 03:18 QTIP. wrote: Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG)
Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
Well said, mate. We'll get there in the end. Btw, I didn't watch any of the GSL matches, can anyone tell me what was so special about JYP vs DRG?
On August 12 2011 03:18 QTIP. wrote: Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG)
Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
Well said, mate. We'll get there in the end. Btw, I didn't watch any of the GSL matches, can anyone tell me what was so special about JYP vs DRG?
Hold fast, sons of Aiur.
What's so special is that DRG 6pooled in game 2 and JYP defended it and DRG cheesed the gold base on metalopolis and didn't scout at all JYP's tech.
J/k, JYP played well in all 3 games (but that's really what happened though, not sure if DRG needed to do that)
The warpgate nerf really hurt Protoss more in PvT and PvZ in my opinion.
There is no way to put pressure on a zerg early game except some canon cheese. The only build that I find viable is forge fast expand into +2 blink stalker and hope your opponent don't see it coming. The stargate play and DT play against zerg is not working, people have figured how to defend it.
I would agree with a buff to Robo units, boosting the warp prism hp and shield, so we would have some harass options. Right now you have to do 2 base blink stalker timing or try weird strategy like 4-sentry drop.
I don't have the same problem with PvT, except the early push with stim and ghost. I would still nerf marauder early game it's op with CC. Put this upgrade somewhere else or it need more time to research.
On August 12 2011 05:20 Grapesludge wrote: MC losing in GSL had nothing to do with protoss being suddenly weak, he could have punished Mvp for taking a really early expo into 1-1-1, I think Mvp even made his CC on lowground with only 1 bunker. When he lost against Noblesse his stalkers were in a bad position, Noblesse's factory baiting around soaking stalker hits and 1 base timing with medivac, MC didn't have enough units to hold his expo. That's the way I see it at least.
Yes but how would MC know MVP took a fast expo with only 4 marines and a bunker? If the standard response to seeing a fast expansion from your opponent is to allin then we wouldn't ever have any macro games.
The second game MC knew a 1base push was coming, went 3 gate expo, and still got owned. It was his fault for not positioning his stalkers well, but if Noblesse was actually elevatoring his units into MC's main like MC suspected, then having stalkers on the low ground would have been a huge mistake for MC, so what was he to do?
On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote: People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry
Exactly- as so many other people have said in this thread and countless others int he past- protoss only has TWO tech trees- warpgate or robo- both which are extremely easily countered. However against terran it does not even matter as the 1-1-1 all in is extremely powerful and protoss simply does not have the number of units necessary to defend against this. Part of this i believe has to do with the warp gate tech research time nerf. Part of it is that protoss units are extremely week in small numbers and it is impossible to have the necessary tech so early in the game for protoss. MC was literally crushed by noblesse simply because of how powerful the 1-1-1 timing is. as we can learn from the JYP game- the only real way for toss to win at the extremely high competitive level is for the opponent to make some stupid mistake or do something risky.
EDIT: sorry guys i forgot( its been like 3 days) it was a 2 rax MMM all in as someone else pointed out. But the point is - protoss simply does not have the unit count in the early game.
Huh, Noblesse's build vs MC was not a 1-1-1 (at least in the now common sense of the term: marine banshee tank), it was a one base MMM all in, still very difficult to hold (GuMiHo did that one time in the GSTL and the build was the bane of all protosses in the beta). And MC obviously expected a 1-1-1 so yeah he got kinda screwed.
For this build, I would indeed think that a shorter WG timing (or better normal gateway timings) can help.
On August 12 2011 05:52 ZenithM wrote: Huh, Noblesse's build vs MC was not a 1-1-1 (at least in the now common sense of the term: marine banshee tank), it was a one base MMM all in, still very difficult to hold (GuMiHo did that one time in the GSTL and the build was the bane of all protosses in the beta). And MC obviously expected a 1-1-1 so yeah he got kinda screwed.
For this build, I would indeed think that a shorter WG timing (or better normal gateway timings) can help.
Actually MC scouted the second rax and the reactor on the first (not sure if he had time to click on the reactor, but he definitely had enough to click on the second rax). That's why he 3gate expanded. A 3gate expo usually dies to a 1-1-1 because against 1-1-1 you either have to expo really fast to let it kick in or not expo at all and tech a bit.
On August 12 2011 05:52 ZenithM wrote: Huh, Noblesse's build vs MC was not a 1-1-1 (at least in the now common sense of the term: marine banshee tank), it was a one base MMM all in, still very difficult to hold (GuMiHo did that one time in the GSTL and the build was the bane of all protosses in the beta). And MC obviously expected a 1-1-1 so yeah he got kinda screwed.
For this build, I would indeed think that a shorter WG timing (or better normal gateway timings) can help.
Actually MC scouted the second rax and the reactor on the first (not sure if he had time to click on the reactor, but he definitely had enough to click on the second rax). That's why he 3gate expanded. A 3gate expo usually dies to a 1-1-1 because against 1-1-1 you either have to expo really fast to let it kick in or not expo at all and tech a bit.
Okay my bad, maybe MC did read that well. But in the CSL SaSe vs MKP game 2, MKP showed the second rax and the reactor to SaSe (as Noblesse did to MC), went ahead and canceled the reactor and threw down the factory and 1-1-1 baby party party party all over SaSe who was "naively" 3 gate expanding.
So you basically can't scout what all-in terran is doing with your first probe.
Sadly its too simple.. Terran has the option to make cloak banshee so you have to go obs otherwise you die and robo is just worthless tech path if blizz just removes cloak for 1 month or makes it available after ebay toss would have no reason to get robo and the matchup will become interesting and also this ridicolous 1a rush will become stoppable
I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote: I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote: I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
Interesting.......
Haha that would make PvT so much easier. It would be too good to be true. And Terran would finally understand the price and risk of expanding. But I don't think that will ever be done. It's Terran's wanted design to be able to fly buildings during base trades, take islands and all that kind of bullshit :D
More seriously though, that would probably be kind of overpowered for the other 2 races.
On August 12 2011 05:20 Grapesludge wrote: MC losing in GSL had nothing to do with protoss being suddenly weak, he could have punished Mvp for taking a really early expo into 1-1-1, I think Mvp even made his CC on lowground with only 1 bunker. When he lost against Noblesse his stalkers were in a bad position, Noblesse's factory baiting around soaking stalker hits and 1 base timing with medivac, MC didn't have enough units to hold his expo. That's the way I see it at least.
Yes but how would MC know MVP took a fast expo with only 4 marines and a bunker? If the standard response to seeing a fast expansion from your opponent is to allin then we wouldn't ever have any macro games.
The second game MC knew a 1base push was coming, went 3 gate expo, and still got owned. It was his fault for not positioning his stalkers well, but if Noblesse was actually elevatoring his units into MC's main like MC suspected, then having stalkers on the low ground would have been a huge mistake for MC, so what was he to do?
Mvp played risky and he didn't get punished for it, I mean MC does have ways to find out that there is a CC being built on lowground, one bunker in that position usually indicates an expo or tech so if MC just runs a unit by the one bunker he's gonna find out. There is also a difference between having 1 bunker with 4 marines to defend your 1 rax lowground CC than a normal timed expo with more defense. I didn't say it's reasonable to all in if you see your opponent FE, but if he is being too greedy about it, maybe it's a good decision.
In the case of the Noblesse game, it sounds like you're saying it's impossible to hold a 1 base terran all in with marine marauder medivac. Noblesse baited the stalkers out of position and engaged when MC was in a bad position to defend. I don't think there's much else to it.
On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote: I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
You got to understand that for terran, securing an expansion is more difficult than for toss/zerg. You don't have forcefields so you would have to make the bunkers before the CC, which would delay the the CC considerably.
On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote: I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
Interesting.......
Haha that would make PvT so much easier. It would be too good to be true. And Terran would finally understand the price and risk of expanding. But I don't think that will ever be done. It's Terran's wanted design to be able to fly buildings during base trades, take islands and all that kind of bullshit :D
More seriously though, that would probably be kind of overpowered for the other 2 races.
You mean by requiring they can defend an expansion before they build it? I just think it would put the risk of building that CC on par with the risk of the other races taking expansions, protoss especially though. They still benefit from that second orbital even if it sits in their base while they build up enough stuff to move down the ramp. 2 rax expand is probably the safest expansion in the game for any race. Why should the protoss have to take more risks than terran to use a fast expand that comes later than the 2 rax expand, can apply LESS pressure than a 2 rax expand, receives no benefit from the expand until much later, and is completely exposed and scoutable to a simple SCV run by.
I dunno it was just a suggestion its just the worst feeling in the world when you probe scout, then do a poke with a zealot/stalker, still don't get enough information to ascertain if they're all-inning or not, prepare for that possibility, then finally get some type of reliable scouting into their base to see a completed orbital churning out double SCVs, all the while you've been using your chronoboost on units you can't even use yet. Your alternative is to do the first steps, assume expansion, finally get your reliable scout in to see what theyre up to, and seeing NO orbital and a bigass push coming to mollywhop you.
Edit: The third scenario would be that you guessed correctly and enter the mid-game on even footing
i believe i have a build that is good at countering the 1/1/1 and have been using it the last 2weeks , and any protoss out there that thinks they are good enough at executing a terran 1/1/1 may feel free to PM me and you can battle me and see if your 1/1/1 can beat me
or if any tosses out there have a good terran friend to fight me, you can tell him to pm me and i can create a replay with us fighting
the build is a zero sentry build that gets 1 very fast voidray, 3-4 stalkers, and a fast robo (at about 5:30) because it cut sentrys it has enough gas to do all of this. the build ONLY gets 1 voidray, to scout, since marines without stim cannot catch a voidray. and i bring my stalkers with the voidray during the scouting mission so if he has a viking i can save the vray and know he got a super fast starport and is going 1/1/1
the thing about voidrays is the first one is very good, but the second and third ones suck because marines tend to build up fast and without collossi voidrays suck against marine compositions. even pheonix suck vs marine composition. but once you have out a collossi, voidrays become good again, and stalker/immortal is good against those timing pushes that come at 7-8 minutes. so the build gets 1fast voidray to scout, then it gets a 5:30 robo to pump out 2 immortals and a collossi before 9 minutes
heres the build
9pylon (scout with probe) 2 chronoboosts on nexus 14gate 15gas 16pylon 17gas chronoboost on nexus 19cyber
make stargate+stalker immediately after cyber is done. this allows the terran to scout the stargate, but guess what, who cares. i dont give a damn. let him scout it, he can stop doing a 1/1/1 if he scouts it and i feel at this point i can react properly to whatever he does
i poke his ramp with my first stalkers to see if he is fast expanding. if he is fast expanding i get a expansion too. because im not getting sentrys i go for a fast collossi if i scout plenty barracks. i get ONLY 1 voidray out of the stargate for nothing other than scouting purposes. the voidray in total costs 400/300, however since marines without stim cannot catch it i normally can kill 1 marine or scv or a depot at the 6 minute mark then run away and recharge shields which if you reduce that from the cost of the voidray that means the real cost of the voidray is like 300/300, and for its cost it has some power in combat but most importantly the voidray provides a full complete scout at the 6 minute mark (it reaches the terran base at 6 minutes) because you get it so fast
in order for the terran to stop my full scout he needs to get out a viking at 6 minutes. that alone already lets me know he went 1-1-1 so i know how to prepare. the viking cannot kill my voidray because i bring my stalkers along to support the scouting
the voidray comes out at around 5:30 because i use 2 chronoboosts on it and i scout with it before the terran can have stim
the voidray+stalkers beats any fast rush the terran could do, and normally after 4-5 stalkers i stop and make mostly immortal+zealot and go for a fast collossi. the fast 2 gasses and no sentries gives lots of gas for a fast tech
i told this to someone in another thread and he said this
""""When you show up to their base for your follow-up scouting to realize they are 2/3 rax expanding with stim half complete do you just leave? """
my answer to that is i always get a robo at around 5:30 no matter what since its needed in almost all situations. the scouts good to see if the enemy is going super marine heavy, super marauder heavy, mix, 1/1/1, or possibly cloaked banshees or thors
if i scout tons and tons of marines and barracks (with no addons and no stim, just tons of marines and a expansion) i get out that faster bay for 1-2 collossi then i switch back into making immortals
if i scout your situation (3rax with add-ons stim almost done and expansion coming) i stop getting stalkers (get zealots instead) giving me enough gas to get a bay+immortal right there. i chronoboost out 2 immortals at around the time the bay completes (i drop the bay slightly after the first immortal, giving time for 2 chronoboosted immortals during the bays buildtime). then when bay is done i make a collossi and i use the gateway for zealots. after 1 collossi i usually stop production if i think the enemy is being aggressive and switch into making zealots+immortal+voidray from the 1/1/1 i have already. i start making voidrays again only after i have one collossi to help handle marines. with micro its more than do-able
i think this build works against 3rax or 2rax expands, the most powerful counter to this build is the fact that i build the stargate at 3:55 gametime immediately after my cybercore is done, and right as i start building my stalker. this means this build is completely 100% scoutable by my enemy, i let him scout my stargate.
because of this, i have found the most powerful thing a terran can do against this build is start building a command center the moment he scouts my stargate going up at 3:59 gametime. this allows him to go pure marine off a fast expand which beats any toss army without guardian shields or collossi, and he can get tanks out before i get my collossi so the terran can easily defend his fast expand from any of my aggression.
this is the most powerful response i believe the terran can do if he scouts my build
people think certain strats are overpowered but they aren't
1) reapers were OP so they were nerfed because EVERY terran was doing that same opening vs zerg
2) 4 gate was nerfed because every protoss was just doing that same strat vs all races
3) scv health was nerfed because of scv worker rush which everybody did
if a particular strat is overpowered then everybody will begin to use it and it will result in 100% win for the person using it if skill levels are equal.
now that's how you can tell if something is OP or not. i don't see 1/1/1 all ins constantly so i question whether it's as OP as you think.
when every single terran uses it in every single vs toss then blizzard will change it.
I like people saying protoss is op. Carriers are soo good yet unexplored. Why do they suck? Interceptors tank like boss, scales well with upgrades, outranged all flying air units. Their deathball is the best in the game and is simply a-movable. Zero drops are used by protoss dont whine over warp prism being fragile, it can transport most units in the game along with warp in and with speed upgrade it's the second fastest in the game.
On August 12 2011 06:41 Xercen wrote: people think certain strats are overpowered but they aren't
1) reapers were OP so they were nerfed because EVERY terran was doing that same opening vs zerg
2) 4 gate was nerfed because every protoss was just doing that same strat vs all races
3) scv health was nerfed because of scv worker rush which everybody did
if a particular strat is overpowered then everybody will begin to use it and it will result in 100% win for the person using it if skill levels are equal.
now that's how you can tell if something is OP or not. i don't see 1/1/1 all ins constantly so i question whether it's as OP as you think.
when every single terran uses it in every single vs toss then blizzard will change it.
On some maps, it's not suitable for usage, so there's that. It's being used to a VERY high degree, with literally a 100% success rate since the Up/Downs of the last GSL. You see Yoda vs. Tassadar yesterday? He loses game 1, then proceeds to do two 1-1-1 all-ins in a row to win the series. Tassadar was laughing to himself afterwards, probably because he knows it's ridiculous. I challenge you to name me a GSL match since last season's Up/Downs in which the 1-1-1 all-in was successfully stopped. A single match. Go.
Protoss: MC does a build, all protosses does it until it stops working. Example Stargate, 3gate or DT expand. Now that zerg in high levels are used to them because you used them alot they know how to counter it and then you say it's imbalanced and just sit on your ass. ROFL
On August 12 2011 06:41 Xercen wrote: people think certain strats are overpowered but they aren't
1) reapers were OP so they were nerfed because EVERY terran was doing that same opening vs zerg
2) 4 gate was nerfed because every protoss was just doing that same strat vs all races
3) scv health was nerfed because of scv worker rush which everybody did
if a particular strat is overpowered then everybody will begin to use it and it will result in 100% win for the person using it if skill levels are equal.
now that's how you can tell if something is OP or not. i don't see 1/1/1 all ins constantly so i question whether it's as OP as you think.
when every single terran uses it in every single vs toss then blizzard will change it.
What have you been watching in the last two weeks? What do you think happens on the ladder 2 games on 3 in pvt right now?
On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote: I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
You got to understand that for terran, securing an expansion is more difficult than for toss/zerg. You don't have forcefields so you would have to make the bunkers before the CC, which would delay the the CC considerably.
I like people saying protoss is op. Carriers are soo good yet unexplored. Why do they suck? Interceptors tank like boss, scales well with upgrades, outranged all flying air units. Their deathball is the best in the game and is simply a-movable. Zero drops are used by protoss dont whine over warp prism being fragile, it can transport most units in the game along with warp in and with speed upgrade it's the second fastest in the game.
they suck because 1) they have a very long build time. 2) they are at the end of a tech tree that uses a lot of gas therefore you're ground army is severely weakened meaning you have to turtle until they come out. ( 3) (sort of) the same things counter collosus meaning only HT's to tech switch to which a competent opponent will predict)
Warp prisms need a buff because most of our units cost 2 food so can only transport 4 things at a time and takes a time to change to 'warp mode' and back again
On August 12 2011 06:41 Xercen wrote: people think certain strats are overpowered but they aren't
1) reapers were OP so they were nerfed because EVERY terran was doing that same opening vs zerg
2) 4 gate was nerfed because every protoss was just doing that same strat vs all races
3) scv health was nerfed because of scv worker rush which everybody did
if a particular strat is overpowered then everybody will begin to use it and it will result in 100% win for the person using it if skill levels are equal.
now that's how you can tell if something is OP or not. i don't see 1/1/1 all ins constantly so i question whether it's as OP as you think.
when every single terran uses it in every single vs toss then blizzard will change it.
I don't know if you watch the same game as we do, but so far, the 1/1/1 has been used in every TvP BoX at the GSL this season. It's not used in every single set because certain maps are not very good for it (where "not very good" = only 70% winrate I would assume).
Other examples: SlayerS terrans 1/1/1'd their way through the code A qualifiers. IMYoda chooses to play macro against Tassadar and gets crushed, then 1/1/1 two times in a row (doesn't seem strange to you?) and "comes back".
the only one who hasn't been 1/1/1'd is MC. He has had the privilege of being 1/1/1'd off 2 bases by MVP (maybe the most enjoyable TvP so far, and that was an unbreakable contain) and MMM one base all inned by Noblesse.
I'm okay with you being pissed of all these whiny protoss newbies, but at least try to understand that we are not able to love watching the PvT as it's played this season.
On August 12 2011 06:47 Olsson wrote: Protoss: MC does a build, all protosses does it until it stops working. Example Stargate, 3gate or DT expand. Now that zerg in high levels are used to them because you used them alot they know how to counter it and then you say it's imbalanced and just sit on your ass. ROFL
Stargate got heavily nerfed by the spore burrow change. Zerg didn't learn to deal with it, a crucial component of defending it got buffed. 3gate expo is almost 100% scoutable, but it's our goto staple in PvZ because it doesn't die to anything in particular, and can pressure. DT expands are extremely gimmicky because a good zerg counts sentries, realizes that you had to have spent gas on something else and will just evo+1 spore and be safe from both stargate and DT(1base robo against zerg is just bad.)
We aren't sitting on our asses. P's are fairly even with T and Z in the late game, and especially since that build takes 10 minutes to run, wouldn't you think that with the popularity, P's get plenty of practice against it? If it was so easy to find a solution, wouldn't terran not have 100% winrate with the build?
On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote: I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
You got to understand that for terran, securing an expansion is more difficult than for toss/zerg. You don't have forcefields so you would have to make the bunkers before the CC, which would delay the the CC considerably.
what?
I'd have to echo this statement. Terran has only a slightly harder time than zerg securing bases beyond nat, and absolutely does NOT have a harder time than protoss securing a 3rd. Against active MM drop play, unless bases are close together, toss needs to have blink before securing a 3rd. You have fucking planetaries, and you complain about hard to secure bases?
On August 12 2011 04:57 RealQ wrote: Hmm, ive given this some thought and how viable is a 1gate stargate expo opening with a fast voidray for harassment? wouldnt this counter the 1/1/1 allin pretty well? voidray does well against non stimmed marines and you could harass the edges of the terran base a bit using some stalkers and a void ray for vision, or am i just talking nonsense here?
Its an option, but consider the same situation where you have the 1-1-1 all-in coming. The Terran has a Starport up, so he can make a Viking and your pressure has issues straight away. That would push the VR far enough back to allow the marines/siege tanks down, and the push continues, albeit delayed because of making 1 Viking
Continuing the theorycrafting, what about the same build, but change VRs to phoenix? Yes they die pretty badly to marines, but if you can get lifts off on the tanks, would it not give your gateway army enough time to get into the fight without dying to tank fire?
Obviously you go for pheonix after the first voidray for lifting siege tanks, but the Voidray was ment to just get a early harass in at the very start and make pheonix after that.
Forcing the terran to make a viking will set him back in banshee for a number of seconds which can really help.
On August 12 2011 06:43 Olsson wrote: I like people saying protoss is op. Carriers are soo good yet unexplored. Why do they suck? Interceptors tank like boss, scales well with upgrades, outranged all flying air units. Their deathball is the best in the game and is simply a-movable. Zero drops are used by protoss dont whine over warp prism being fragile, it can transport most units in the game along with warp in and with speed upgrade it's the second fastest in the game.
You seem to know your shit. You even seem to play above gold level. Please, oh great zerg player, please show me the way. Show me how I can get even one carrier off 2 bases that will help me roflstomp my way to top 1 Korean GM. Enlighten me on how I can tech to most expensive tech path possible, in time AND resources (especially in time), without dying to a timing attack before i can get more than 1 carrier and a half. Educate me and give me the ultimate build order you would suggest us, poor protoss players, to get enough carriers in order to. and I quote, "a move" my way to victory, when interceptors can only tank damage if the opponent suffers from brain damage and decides not to target the carriers with his anti-air. Please, oh great one, grace me with you infinite wisdom.
On August 12 2011 06:43 Olsson wrote: I like people saying protoss is op. Carriers are soo good yet unexplored. Why do they suck? Interceptors tank like boss, scales well with upgrades, outranged all flying air units. Their deathball is the best in the game and is simply a-movable. Zero drops are used by protoss dont whine over warp prism being fragile, it can transport most units in the game along with warp in and with speed upgrade it's the second fastest in the game.
You seem to know your shit. You even seem to play above gold level. Please, oh great zerg player, please show me the way. Show me how I can get even one carrier off 2 bases that will help me roflstomp my way to top 1 Korean GM. Enlighten me on how I can tech to most expensive tech path possible, in time AND resources (especially in time), without dying to a timing attack before i can get more than 1 carrier and a half. Educate me and give me the ultimate build order you would suggest us, poor protoss players, to get enough carriers in order to. and I quote, "a move" my way to victory, when interceptors can only tank damage if the opponent suffers from brain damage and decides not to target the carriers with his anti-air. Please, oh great one, grace me with you infinite wisdom.
Sorry but you're pretty arrogant. I think against Z you can easily do carriers from a forge fast because generally you'll already have a stargate. Dunno man. Carriers in numbers are pretty devastating.
On August 12 2011 06:43 Olsson wrote: I like people saying protoss is op. Carriers are soo good yet unexplored. Why do they suck? Interceptors tank like boss, scales well with upgrades, outranged all flying air units. Their deathball is the best in the game and is simply a-movable. Zero drops are used by protoss dont whine over warp prism being fragile, it can transport most units in the game along with warp in and with speed upgrade it's the second fastest in the game.
You seem to know your shit. You even seem to play above gold level. Please, oh great zerg player, please show me the way. Show me how I can get even one carrier off 2 bases that will help me roflstomp my way to top 1 Korean GM. Enlighten me on how I can tech to most expensive tech path possible, in time AND resources (especially in time), without dying to a timing attack before i can get more than 1 carrier and a half. Educate me and give me the ultimate build order you would suggest us, poor protoss players, to get enough carriers in order to. and I quote, "a move" my way to victory, when interceptors can only tank damage if the opponent suffers from brain damage and decides not to target the carriers with his anti-air. Please, oh great one, grace me with you infinite wisdom.
Sorry but you're pretty arrogant. I think against Z you can easily do carriers from a forge fast because generally you'll already have a stargate. Dunno man. Carriers in numbers are pretty devastating.
You can but if Zerg scouts it, he can just drop you with mass units off or take a few extra bases and mass corrupters or infestors. Going Carriers after FFE is just praying that your opponent is bad or doesn't know how to respond.
Carriers are pretty good IF you can get them, but you certainly can't do it off 2 bases vs a competent opponent.
On August 12 2011 03:18 QTIP. wrote: Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG)
Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
Well said, mate. We'll get there in the end. Btw, I didn't watch any of the GSL matches, can anyone tell me what was so special about JYP vs DRG?
Hold fast, sons of Aiur.
What's so special is that DRG 6pooled in game 2 and JYP defended it and DRG cheesed the gold base on metalopolis and didn't scout at all JYP's tech.
J/k, JYP played well in all 3 games (but that's really what happened though, not sure if DRG needed to do that)
Oh, so he just played a good game and won against a Zerg?
On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote: I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
You got to understand that for terran, securing an expansion is more difficult than for toss/zerg. You don't have forcefields so you would have to make the bunkers before the CC, which would delay the the CC considerably.
I don't agree with that assessment at all... it takes a while to build up the gas and energy for a sentry force to defend an early expo. They also need a pylon before they can even warp in defensive structures. Zerg can't even make defensive structures until the hatch is complete and spreads creep. Terran on the otherhand can just build bunkers cheaply anytime with no requirements and can eventually salvage those bunkers for 75% of the cost. You could easily make the case it is still easier for Terran to expand even if you couldn't float the CC/OC.
I think disabling CC/OC-floating is a great idea and is very heavily tied into why current 1-base all-ins from Terran is so successful. It's not unstoppable per se, but the margin of error on protoss' side is so small unless you specifically were blind countering it. There is little you can react to since scouting information is sparse early game for protoss. You never want to devolve the early game into a roll of the dice.
PvZ is still very much in flux. Should let the dust settle a bit more.
One change I think would make protoss early game more interesting is evening out the balance of power between pre- and post-warpgate tech armies by reducing zealot/stalker buildtime by 5 secs but leaving their warp-in times unchanged (similar to what they did w/ sentries recently). It opens more aggressive options by protoss early on and will hopefully make it less rigid, while leaving the mid- to long- game completely unchanged.
On August 12 2011 06:43 Olsson wrote: I like people saying protoss is op. Carriers are soo good yet unexplored. Why do they suck? Interceptors tank like boss, scales well with upgrades, outranged all flying air units. Their deathball is the best in the game and is simply a-movable. Zero drops are used by protoss dont whine over warp prism being fragile, it can transport most units in the game along with warp in and with speed upgrade it's the second fastest in the game.
You seem to know your shit. You even seem to play above gold level. Please, oh great zerg player, please show me the way. Show me how I can get even one carrier off 2 bases that will help me roflstomp my way to top 1 Korean GM. Enlighten me on how I can tech to most expensive tech path possible, in time AND resources (especially in time), without dying to a timing attack before i can get more than 1 carrier and a half. Educate me and give me the ultimate build order you would suggest us, poor protoss players, to get enough carriers in order to. and I quote, "a move" my way to victory, when interceptors can only tank damage if the opponent suffers from brain damage and decides not to target the carriers with his anti-air. Please, oh great one, grace me with you infinite wisdom.
Sorry but you're pretty arrogant. I think against Z you can easily do carriers from a forge fast because generally you'll already have a stargate. Dunno man. Carriers in numbers are pretty devastating.
No, it's not viable. I know you are trying to offer some ideas and be helpful but it is clear you do not play protoss. A zerg will macro his way so far ahead of you you will have no chance even if you do manage to get a carrier army out.
On August 12 2011 03:18 QTIP. wrote: Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG)
Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
Well said, mate. We'll get there in the end. Btw, I didn't watch any of the GSL matches, can anyone tell me what was so special about JYP vs DRG?
Hold fast, sons of Aiur.
What's so special is that DRG 6pooled in game 2 and JYP defended it and DRG cheesed the gold base on metalopolis and didn't scout at all JYP's tech.
J/k, JYP played well in all 3 games (but that's really what happened though, not sure if DRG needed to do that)
Oh, so he just played a good game and won against a Zerg?
Yep, pretty much. Those were good games. He even tried fancy stuff with sentry drops and HT drops, not too effective but cool to see.
If you were to make it such that Orbital commands couldn't lift off, and only CC's I think it would be an interesting balance change. Make the orbital an investment like the PF, only instead of having built-in defenses it provides scan/economy/supply drop. It would definitely be an interesting change.
That being said, I think as it's been mentioned before, Protoss gateway units (except for HT storm) do no cost effectively trade with the other races tier 1-1.5 units, and as the game continues to develop and more and more timings discovered, Protoss players will be continually pressured in a way such that they have to delay getting their high tech units out to survive, which will end up in T/Z players getting a huge advantage from which they can defeat their opponents.
On August 12 2011 06:43 Olsson wrote: I like people saying protoss is op. Carriers are soo good yet unexplored. Why do they suck? Interceptors tank like boss, scales well with upgrades, outranged all flying air units. Their deathball is the best in the game and is simply a-movable. Zero drops are used by protoss dont whine over warp prism being fragile, it can transport most units in the game along with warp in and with speed upgrade it's the second fastest in the game.
You seem to know your shit. You even seem to play above gold level. Please, oh great zerg player, please show me the way. Show me how I can get even one carrier off 2 bases that will help me roflstomp my way to top 1 Korean GM. Enlighten me on how I can tech to most expensive tech path possible, in time AND resources (especially in time), without dying to a timing attack before i can get more than 1 carrier and a half. Educate me and give me the ultimate build order you would suggest us, poor protoss players, to get enough carriers in order to. and I quote, "a move" my way to victory, when interceptors can only tank damage if the opponent suffers from brain damage and decides not to target the carriers with his anti-air. Please, oh great one, grace me with you infinite wisdom.
Sorry but you're pretty arrogant. I think against Z you can easily do carriers from a forge fast because generally you'll already have a stargate. Dunno man. Carriers in numbers are pretty devastating.
neural parasite. and you cant afford HT+Carriers until very late game
On August 12 2011 06:41 Xercen wrote: people think certain strats are overpowered but they aren't
1) reapers were OP so they were nerfed because EVERY terran was doing that same opening vs zerg
2) 4 gate was nerfed because every protoss was just doing that same strat vs all races
3) scv health was nerfed because of scv worker rush which everybody did
if a particular strat is overpowered then everybody will begin to use it and it will result in 100% win for the person using it if skill levels are equal.
now that's how you can tell if something is OP or not. i don't see 1/1/1 all ins constantly so i question whether it's as OP as you think.
when every single terran uses it in every single vs toss then blizzard will change it.
On some maps, it's not suitable for usage, so there's that. It's being used to a VERY high degree, with literally a 100% success rate since the Up/Downs of the last GSL. You see Yoda vs. Tassadar yesterday? He loses game 1, then proceeds to do two 1-1-1 all-ins in a row to win the series. Tassadar was laughing to himself afterwards, probably because he knows it's ridiculous. I challenge you to name me a GSL match since last season's Up/Downs in which the 1-1-1 all-in was successfully stopped. A single match. Go.
if 1-1-1's are used with that much frequency then i don't see why we would debating in this thread because it WILL be nerfed. Every strat that was blatantly OP and constantly used like reapers and 4 gate will be nerfed.
this thread has turned into a balance debate, I hope this thread gets closed. Yes in this GSL Protoss players are getting dominated (...so far). Just last GSL the Code A finals was a PvP. All this shows is how amazing the sc2 scene is, able to adapt so quickly. Metagame turnaround is so fast, just wait for Protoss players to adapt!
On August 12 2011 07:46 sethr0 wrote: this thread has turned into a balance debate, I hope this thread gets closed. Yes in this GSL Protoss players are getting dominated (...so far). Just last GSL the Code A finals was a PvP. All this shows is how amazing the sc2 scene is, able to adapt so quickly. Metagame turnaround is so fast, just wait for Protoss players to adapt!
The problem with people saying that we need to "wait for Protoss players to adapt" is that the 1-1-1 all-in has been around for a long time - first time I saw it was Rain vs. Genius in GSL Open Season 3 - well over half a year ago. I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the ability of Toss players to adapt if the build was something new, but it isn't.
On August 11 2011 17:23 Demonaz wrote: Protoss are basically where Zerg were two months ago when everyone was complaining that z are too weak and underpowered. Seems that most of the 'abusive' p strats have been figured out and along with the 4-gate nerf its made it harder for the moment. However I'm sure something will be figured out soon, c'mon protoss players, get to work!
They didnt figure shit out. After 6 months of throwing thier hands up toss and terran got nerfed and zerg got buffed.
SD before rax, massive VR nerf, KA removal, WG nerf and so on. Infestor now do damage at twice the rate as before and even more to armored which most protoss is.
Blizzard "figured it out" and they will "figure out" how toss can have parity again.
And it's pretty insulting to tell these pros who put in hundreds of hours to "get to work".
Time for me to go pro and bust out my revolutionary one base carrier + warp prism 4 gate to the world. The revolution protoss has been waiting for, according to most people.
On August 12 2011 07:46 sethr0 wrote: this thread has turned into a balance debate, I hope this thread gets closed. Yes in this GSL Protoss players are getting dominated (...so far). Just last GSL the Code A finals was a PvP. All this shows is how amazing the sc2 scene is, able to adapt so quickly. Metagame turnaround is so fast, just wait for Protoss players to adapt!
The problem with people saying that we need to "wait for Protoss players to adapt" is that the 1-1-1 all-in has been around for a long time - first time I saw it was Rain vs. Genius in GSL Open Season 3 - well over half a year ago. I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the ability of Toss players to adapt if the build was something new, but it isn't.
It's been around since beta and easily stopped before with 3 gate stargate or 4 gate all ins which is why it diappeared.
Problem now is VR only does 26 to that bunker instead of 41 on the 3 gate stargate. With 4 gate now bunker(s) have 6 rines and tank and it's defensible, where before you'd have no tank by then and less marines in bunker(s).
Troops just don't come fast enough or hit hard enough to punish this tech greed and thus it's back.
There are multiple guides in the strategy forums for how to hold this successfully right now, IMO protoss just need to go very heavy zealot/sentry and maybe even pull some probes if they expect to hold it. Why should you be able to hold a 10-15scv push without pulling some of your workers esp when you are on 2 base to 1. Chrono out +1 armor and you will be golden.
Protoss newbies dont expect that you will get buffed because you whine alot, the 4gate "nerf" so many ppl are citing wasnt even a nerf to the PvT version of 4gate so I don't know what you are smoking (the most powerful PvT varients did not hit the second wgs finished).
All the terran whining about TvP lategame with bio somehow resulted in a thor nerf so watch out, you might just get the carrier nerfed or somthing.
On August 12 2011 07:46 sethr0 wrote: this thread has turned into a balance debate, I hope this thread gets closed. Yes in this GSL Protoss players are getting dominated (...so far). Just last GSL the Code A finals was a PvP. All this shows is how amazing the sc2 scene is, able to adapt so quickly. Metagame turnaround is so fast, just wait for Protoss players to adapt!
The problem with people saying that we need to "wait for Protoss players to adapt" is that the 1-1-1 all-in has been around for a long time - first time I saw it was Rain vs. Genius in GSL Open Season 3 - well over half a year ago. I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the ability of Toss players to adapt if the build was something new, but it isn't.
It's been around since beta and easily stopped before with 3 gate stargate or 4 gate all ins which is why it diappeared.
Problem now is VR only does 26 to that bunker instead of 41 on the 3 gate stargate. With 4 gate now bunker(s) have 6 rines and tank and it's defensible, where before you'd have no tank by then and less marines in bunker(s).
Troops just don't come fast enough or hit hard enough to punish this tech greed and thus it's back.
Also the game is fundamentally broken if the only way to beat a build is to allin it before it happens. There should ALWAYS be a defensive solution to a build.
On August 12 2011 08:38 statikg wrote: There are multiple guides in the strategy forums for how to hold this successfully right now, IMO protoss just need to go very heavy zealot/sentry and maybe even pull some probes if they expect to hold it. Why should you be able to hold a 10-15scv push without pulling some of your workers esp when you are on 2 base to 1. Chrono out +1 armor and you will be golden.
first you say theres many guides on how to hold it in the strat forum
then your "advice" on how to hold it is straight up wrong
zealot/sentry will not hold this. the sieged tanks take out the sentries quickly ending guardian shield quickly
so, now that your advice is completely wrong... what is the point of your post??
On August 12 2011 08:35 Heavenly wrote: Time for me to go pro and bust out my revolutionary one base carrier + warp prism 4 gate to the world. The revolution protoss has been waiting for, according to most people.
All the terran whining about TvP lategame with bio somehow resulted in a thor nerf so watch out, you might just get the carrier nerfed or somthing.
Agee. Now, where is my Khayderian amulet again?
seriously, your post is one of the most daft things i have read in a while. Thors were nerfed because thorzains thor rush was equally hard to hold as the 1/1/1. not because terrans whined about Bio. what has that got to do with anything?
thor rush was nerfed because it was next to impossible to hold. same reason why blizzard will/should also nerf the 1/1/1. your post is fucking stupid
On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote: I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
You got to understand that for terran, securing an expansion is more difficult than for toss/zerg. You don't have forcefields so you would have to make the bunkers before the CC, which would delay the the CC considerably.
I don't agree with that assessment at all... it takes a while to build up the gas and energy for a sentry force to defend an early expo. They also need a pylon before they can even warp in defensive structures. Zerg can't even make defensive structures until the hatch is complete and spreads creep. Terran on the otherhand can just build bunkers cheaply anytime with no requirements and can eventually salvage those bunkers for 75% of the cost. You could easily make the case it is still easier for Terran to expand even if you couldn't float the CC/OC.
I think disabling CC/OC-floating is a great idea and is very heavily tied into why current 1-base all-ins from Terran is so successful. It's not unstoppable per se, but the margin of error on protoss' side is so small unless you specifically were blind countering it. There is little you can react to since scouting information is sparse early game for protoss. You never want to devolve the early game into a roll of the dice.
PvZ is still very much in flux. Should let the dust settle a bit more.
One change I think would make protoss early game more interesting is evening out the balance of power between pre- and post-warpgate tech armies by reducing zealot/stalker buildtime by 5 secs but leaving their warp-in times unchanged (similar to what they did w/ sentries recently). It opens more aggressive options by protoss early on and will hopefully make it less rigid, while leaving the mid- to long- game completely unchanged.
How about make CC/OC floating an upgrade? Then in early game it isn't so hard to tell if there is a FE or not but mid-late game the terran can still float away into the corner and try to force a draw.
On August 12 2011 08:38 statikg wrote: There are multiple guides in the strategy forums for how to hold this successfully right now, IMO protoss just need to go very heavy zealot/sentry and maybe even pull some probes if they expect to hold it. Why should you be able to hold a 10-15scv push without pulling some of your workers esp when you are on 2 base to 1. Chrono out +1 armor and you will be golden.
Protoss newbies dont expect that you will get buffed because you whine alot, the 4gate "nerf" so many ppl are citing wasnt even a nerf to the PvT version of 4gate so I don't know what you are smoking (the most powerful PvT varients did not hit the second wgs finished).
All the terran whining about TvP lategame with bio somehow resulted in a thor nerf so watch out, you might just get the carrier nerfed or somthing.
Lol. Ignorance.
The multiple guides in the strategy forum work for around masters level 1-1-1s, and even then it's the "kind of works sometimes, but at least you don't die 100% of the time". The creators of those threads are not on the same level as all the Korean protoss dying from this. If Bomber did it against the creators of those threads, they would die every single game.
Protoss newbies whining about 1-1-1 = Sangho, Puzzle, SlayersAlicia, etc.
You apparently have no idea how this game works. Just because that variation has two gas doesn't mean you won''t have more units out much faster.
The thor was nerfed because Thorzain's unstoppable Thor strat he used against MC, and one base thor pushes pretty much being a slightly easier-to-hold 1-1-1.
Anyway I'm sure 1-1-1 will be nerfed next patch somehow, Blizzard has nerfed for less.
Anyone who thinks JYP vs DRG was a good series for toss is mentally challenged. Game 1 DRG stomps the living shit out of JYP in the only straight up game. DRG decides to go for a 6 pool, has it scouted instantly and still manages to almost win. Then game 3 he cheeses again, takes a gold, and just decides he doesn't care what units JYP is building and gets stomped by Colossus. Absolutely nothing in this series says JYP has a PvZ that actually wins. DRG just decided he didn't like winning.
As for the balance issues, PvT is a problem solely because of the 1-1-1 all in. Whether its possible to hold with a build doesn't make it fair. As Protoss you are forced to play in a very specific manner in order to ensure that you don't die to the 1-1-1 which limits your options to the extent that you end up behind coming out of the early game if they don't go 1-1-1 and you prepare for it. Think cliff drops ZvT on Lost Temple, but every single fucking map.
PvZ, I'm not entirely sold yet that there's an issue but I'm beginning to think so. Even with really refined openings (delicate 1 gate expos and forge FEs) it feels like it might be too hard to get pressure back on the zerg after it. Your 3 basic options are Blink aggression, straight to Robo play, often with a 3rd, and Stargate play. At first Toss were doing the first 2, then the Stargate got popular. Especially when the Stargate play was first happening, it looked like toss was in a fine place but now that zergs have adapted, I'm much less sure. It seems like no matter what you do off 2 base as toss, with some scouting and proper preparation, the zerg will just flat out be ahead. It always feels like you're playing from behind as you're taking a 3rd as toss, so you end up trying gimmicks like DT base sniping and hiding tech paths. Could be we just need to figure something out, but I'm more than a little frustrated.
I didn't feel like the Toss players including MC really played their best in general. It's like the GSL Toss players had a collective brain fart this season. I look forward to what HuK will do. I'm rooting for him to carry the Brotoss banner.
As far as 1-1-1 goes . . . I simply think a decent number of Toss players are behind in the meta game at this point. New strats develop and it takes a while for the other player/races to catch up. That's not imba as much as the pendulum swinging one way for a time.
Although it was aggravating how inane the QQ about Colo was during the era where they demolished . . . before opponents figured out how AA tears them apart.
On August 12 2011 09:07 iky43210 wrote: protoss is still not used to their full potential.
warp prison is rarely used, or multiple point attacks.
their builds are extremely one dimensional, and instead they should look for new innovative plays such as earlier HT tech etc
Yeah, but you can say the same about the other races as well. Ghosts only just recently seem to be seeing decent use and Ravens are still underused as it is. Heck, it was just MLG where we truly saw widespread use of Blue flame Hellions.
On August 12 2011 09:06 synkronized wrote: I didn't feel like the Toss players including MC really played their best in general. It's like the GSL Toss players had a collective brain fart this season. I look forward to what HuK will do. I'm rooting for him to carry the Brotoss banner.
As far as 1-1-1 goes . . . I simply think a decent number of Toss players are behind in the meta game at this point. New strats develop and it takes a while for the other player/races to catch up. That's not imba as much as the pendulum swinging one way for a time.
Although it was aggravating how inane the QQ about Colo was during the era where they demolished . . . before opponents figured out how AA tears them apart.
1-1-1 isn't new. This seems to be the biggest misconception for many people around here.
On August 12 2011 09:01 Keren wrote: Anyone who thinks JYP vs DRG was a good series for toss is mentally challenged. Game 1 DRG stomps the living shit out of JYP in the only straight up game. DRG decides to go for a 6 pool, has it scouted instantly and still manages to almost win. Then game 3 he cheeses again, takes a gold, and just decides he doesn't care what units JYP is building and gets stomped by Colossus. Absolutely nothing in this series says JYP has a PvZ that actually wins. DRG just decided he didn't like winning.
As for the balance issues, PvT is a problem solely because of the 1-1-1 all in. Whether its possible to hold with a build doesn't make it fair. As Protoss you are forced to play in a very specific manner in order to ensure that you don't die to the 1-1-1 which limits your options to the extent that you end up behind coming out of the early game if they don't go 1-1-1 and you prepare for it. Think cliff drops ZvT on Lost Temple, but every single fucking map.
PvZ, I'm not entirely sold yet that there's an issue but I'm beginning to think so. Even with really refined openings (delicate 1 gate expos and forge FEs) it feels like it might be too hard to get pressure back on the zerg after it. Your 3 basic options are Blink aggression, straight to Robo play, often with a 3rd, and Stargate play. At first Toss were doing the first 2, then the Stargate got popular. Especially when the Stargate play was first happening, it looked like toss was in a fine place but now that zergs have adapted, I'm much less sure. It seems like no matter what you do off 2 base as toss, with some scouting and proper preparation, the zerg will just flat out be ahead. It always feels like you're playing from behind as you're taking a 3rd as toss, so you end up trying gimmicks like DT base sniping and hiding tech paths. Could be we just need to figure something out, but I'm more than a little frustrated.
I think the problem with zerg is protoss just can't delay them anymore. That matchup was always gimmicky. where you'd have to pylon block ramps (removed), blow up expos with VRs (nerfed) or 4 gate them (nerfed) to slow them down because once mid game hit and they have 180 supply to 90 they just roll you with anything. Protoss try to FFE to keep up but then zergs learned you just take a 3rd upon seeing forge so same supply separation takes place 180 to 90. Protoss trys to take 3rd but it's too late with 40 larva they can summon 40 roach or 80 lings at drop of nexus.
Watch this vod if you want to see what happens to a macro & turtle toss who applies no pressure...it's ugly.
If you notice, successful terrans always apply massive pressure to zerg to stave off swarm.
Starting with 2 rax and 2 rax bunker pushes. Hellions. Drops all game. etc.
My contention is with various nerfs Protoss no longer that ability to pressure and force troops instead of economy except on a all in level. The pressure they can apply DTs/Air etc is all poor risk reward and usually puts them far behind.
Honestly I think the reason Protoss is doing so poorly is because ZvP is finally turning in favor of Zerg. The only person I hear arguing now that ZvP being P favored is Idra...but I think that's mostly because that's his weakest matchup personally, and he's got to complain about Zerg somehow.
Korea has a ton of really good Terrans due to a strong Terran tradition from a BW. Slayers in particular is really good at growing fantastic Terrans.
So it really comes down to ZvP for second place. Until recently, PvZ has been in the P's favor. Which is a big reason why there weren't many Zergs doing well in all the previous GSLs (except Nestea and Losira, who are exceptional).
Try naming a top-tier P. You've got MC and thats pretty much it. Killer/Genius flamed out after the beta as being mediocre players. HongUn is a lot like Anypro, flashes of genius but still mostly a bad player. Huk has done awesome internationally, but he hasn't accomplished much in the GSL. I don't think Alicia can be compared to heavyweights like MVP MKP Bomber MMA Nestea Losira. He's really good at PvT but that's pretty much it. He's a fantastic one-matchup specialist, much like Polt and Inca. Puzzle and Sage are promising future candidates, but its too early to tell.
I'm sure as the metagame shifts we'll see Protoss make a comeback.
On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote: I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
You got to understand that for terran, securing an expansion is more difficult than for toss/zerg. You don't have forcefields so you would have to make the bunkers before the CC, which would delay the the CC considerably.
I don't agree with that assessment at all... it takes a while to build up the gas and energy for a sentry force to defend an early expo. They also need a pylon before they can even warp in defensive structures. Zerg can't even make defensive structures until the hatch is complete and spreads creep. Terran on the otherhand can just build bunkers cheaply anytime with no requirements and can eventually salvage those bunkers for 75% of the cost. You could easily make the case it is still easier for Terran to expand even if you couldn't float the CC/OC.
I think disabling CC/OC-floating is a great idea and is very heavily tied into why current 1-base all-ins from Terran is so successful. It's not unstoppable per se, but the margin of error on protoss' side is so small unless you specifically were blind countering it. There is little you can react to since scouting information is sparse early game for protoss. You never want to devolve the early game into a roll of the dice.
PvZ is still very much in flux. Should let the dust settle a bit more.
One change I think would make protoss early game more interesting is evening out the balance of power between pre- and post-warpgate tech armies by reducing zealot/stalker buildtime by 5 secs but leaving their warp-in times unchanged (similar to what they did w/ sentries recently). It opens more aggressive options by protoss early on and will hopefully make it less rigid, while leaving the mid- to long- game completely unchanged.
How about make CC/OC floating an upgrade? Then in early game it isn't so hard to tell if there is a FE or not but mid-late game the terran can still float away into the corner and try to force a draw.
Sure it could be an upgrade, but I guess my question to you then is why would you want a mechanic whose function would mainly be to used to cause a draw. Nobody like playing/watching a game of "hide the CC." That aspect should of it be removed from the game entirely (i.e. all your buildings are still revealed if you have no CCs that are on the ground or something).
On August 12 2011 09:07 iky43210 wrote: protoss is still not used to their full potential.
warp prison is rarely used, or multiple point attacks.
their builds are extremely one dimensional, and instead they should look for new innovative plays such as earlier HT tech etc
multiple attack point is not the strength of a toss. A toss player should and always want to keep their main army together. It is up to the zerg and terran to split the toss apart. That is why anyone who understand the "races" would almost never suggest multiple point attacks. Warp prism is mehish at best. People have experimented with them(White ra and more recently JYP). They are very fragile and small amount of toss units can't do damage. We don't have reavers from BW. Or BFH which means our drops have to be extremely high tech(high temps) or usually just don't do any damage at all(zealot drops)
What JYP did to DRG in that game on Tal'Darim is the kind of strat that only works once. A warp prism loaded with HTs with storm fairly early in the game where you hope to warp in DTs without being seen and assume a probe transfer to the natural where you storm them all?
That's a really brilliant strategy but it's not something that is really repeatable with any regularity. Furthermore, even with how effective it was JYP barely scraped out a win that game which was opened with a fucking 6 pool of all things and he happened to scout DRG's base first. If that game isn't a shining example of what people have been bringing up in this thread then I don't know what is.
On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote: I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
You got to understand that for terran, securing an expansion is more difficult than for toss/zerg. You don't have forcefields so you would have to make the bunkers before the CC, which would delay the the CC considerably.
I don't agree with that assessment at all... it takes a while to build up the gas and energy for a sentry force to defend an early expo. They also need a pylon before they can even warp in defensive structures. Zerg can't even make defensive structures until the hatch is complete and spreads creep. Terran on the otherhand can just build bunkers cheaply anytime with no requirements and can eventually salvage those bunkers for 75% of the cost. You could easily make the case it is still easier for Terran to expand even if you couldn't float the CC/OC.
I think disabling CC/OC-floating is a great idea and is very heavily tied into why current 1-base all-ins from Terran is so successful. It's not unstoppable per se, but the margin of error on protoss' side is so small unless you specifically were blind countering it. There is little you can react to since scouting information is sparse early game for protoss. You never want to devolve the early game into a roll of the dice.
PvZ is still very much in flux. Should let the dust settle a bit more.
One change I think would make protoss early game more interesting is evening out the balance of power between pre- and post-warpgate tech armies by reducing zealot/stalker buildtime by 5 secs but leaving their warp-in times unchanged (similar to what they did w/ sentries recently). It opens more aggressive options by protoss early on and will hopefully make it less rigid, while leaving the mid- to long- game completely unchanged.
How about make CC/OC floating an upgrade? Then in early game it isn't so hard to tell if there is a FE or not but mid-late game the terran can still float away into the corner and try to force a draw.
Sure it could be an upgrade, but I guess my question to you then is why would you want a mechanic whose function would mainly be to used to cause a draw. Nobody like playing/watching a game of "hide the CC." That aspect should of it be removed from the game entirely (i.e. all your buildings are still revealed if you have no CCs that are on the ground or something).
Haha the draw thing was mainly a joke, although it does sometimes make some pretty exciting games with terran running around. There are other reasons for lifting, eg islands and avoiding tanks/banelings/roaches etc. Being revealed in the air would be pretty funny, especially if the time until revealed stayed so terrans were flying around trying to safely land their CC then lift again to reset the timer.
On August 12 2011 09:01 Keren wrote: Anyone who thinks JYP vs DRG was a good series for toss is mentally challenged. Game 1 DRG stomps the living shit out of JYP in the only straight up game. DRG decides to go for a 6 pool, has it scouted instantly and still manages to almost win. Then game 3 he cheeses again, takes a gold, and just decides he doesn't care what units JYP is building and gets stomped by Colossus. Absolutely nothing in this series says JYP has a PvZ that actually wins. DRG just decided he didn't like winning.
As for the balance issues, PvT is a problem solely because of the 1-1-1 all in. Whether its possible to hold with a build doesn't make it fair. As Protoss you are forced to play in a very specific manner in order to ensure that you don't die to the 1-1-1 which limits your options to the extent that you end up behind coming out of the early game if they don't go 1-1-1 and you prepare for it. Think cliff drops ZvT on Lost Temple, but every single fucking map.
PvZ, I'm not entirely sold yet that there's an issue but I'm beginning to think so. Even with really refined openings (delicate 1 gate expos and forge FEs) it feels like it might be too hard to get pressure back on the zerg after it. Your 3 basic options are Blink aggression, straight to Robo play, often with a 3rd, and Stargate play. At first Toss were doing the first 2, then the Stargate got popular. Especially when the Stargate play was first happening, it looked like toss was in a fine place but now that zergs have adapted, I'm much less sure. It seems like no matter what you do off 2 base as toss, with some scouting and proper preparation, the zerg will just flat out be ahead. It always feels like you're playing from behind as you're taking a 3rd as toss, so you end up trying gimmicks like DT base sniping and hiding tech paths. Could be we just need to figure something out, but I'm more than a little frustrated.
I think the problem with zerg is protoss just can't delay them anymore. That matchup was always gimmicky. where you'd have to pylon block ramps (removed), blow up expos with VRs (nerfed) or 4 gate them (nerfed) to slow them down because once mid game hit and they have 180 supply to 90 they just roll you with anything. Protoss try to FFE to keep up but then zergs learned you just take a 3rd upon seeing forge so same supply separation takes place 180 to 90. Protoss trys to take 3rd but it's too late with 40 larva they can summon 40 roach or 80 lings at drop of nexus.
If you notice, successful terrans always apply massive pressure to zerg to stave off swarm.
Starting with 2 rax and 2 rax bunker pushes. Hellions. Drops all game. etc.
My contention is with various nerfs Protoss no longer that ability to pressure and force troops instead of economy except on a all in level. The pressure they can apply DTs/Air etc is all poor risk reward and usually puts them far behind.
Wow that video really showed how good roaches are lol ^^.
On August 12 2011 09:07 iky43210 wrote: protoss is still not used to their full potential.
warp prison is rarely used, or multiple point attacks.
their builds are extremely one dimensional, and instead they should look for new innovative plays such as earlier HT tech etc
multiple attack point is not the strength of a toss. A toss player should and always want to keep their main army together. It is up to the zerg and terran to split the toss apart. That is why anyone who understand the "races" would almost never suggest multiple point attacks. Warp prism is mehish at best. People have experimented with them(White ra and more recently JYP). They are very fragile and small amount of toss units can't do damage. We don't have reavers from BW. Or BFH which means our drops have to be extremely high tech(high temps) or usually just don't do any damage at all(zealot drops)
It works in lategame where you have a scary deathball. Early to mid game it's too much of an invest. However, in the lategame you can force him to acknowledge that you might run in and attack him. During these pokes, the protoss can warp in zealots into another base. Also, while the deathball might not survive, you can continue warping everywhere.
Since YOU attacked, he HAS to defend. You can warp in 10 zealots there, 10 zealots there (remember, lategame), and during all this you can rebuild another army of death. You get an economy while he doesn't because chargelots destroy SCV lines.
On August 12 2011 09:07 iky43210 wrote: protoss is still not used to their full potential.
warp prison is rarely used, or multiple point attacks.
their builds are extremely one dimensional, and instead they should look for new innovative plays such as earlier HT tech etc
multiple attack point is not the strength of a toss. A toss player should and always want to keep their main army together. It is up to the zerg and terran to split the toss apart. That is why anyone who understand the "races" would almost never suggest multiple point attacks. Warp prism is mehish at best. People have experimented with them(White ra and more recently JYP). They are very fragile and small amount of toss units can't do damage. We don't have reavers from BW. Or BFH which means our drops have to be extremely high tech(high temps) or usually just don't do any damage at all(zealot drops)
It works in lategame where you have a scary deathball. Early to mid game it's too much of an invest. However, in the lategame you can force him to acknowledge that you might run in and attack him. During these pokes, the protoss can warp in zealots into another base. Also, while the deathball might not survive, you can continue warping everywhere.
Since YOU attacked, he HAS to defend. You can warp in 10 zealots there, 10 zealots there (remember, lategame), and during all this you can rebuild another army of death. You get an economy while he doesn't because chargelots destroy SCV lines.
If you have a scary deathball, the Terran is unlikely to just be chilling in the middle of the map and will be easily in position to split a few marauders/marines and a medivac to clean up your chargelots. Not to mention that if the SCVs get pulled quickly the damage will be further negated. Also as previously mentioned warp prisms are complete glass cannons, really all it takes is a viking or a few marines on a ledge and it's toast. I've been trying my best to utilise them more but I find the chargelots don't do enough damage to justify it, and if unexpected marines are anywhere nearby your warp prism is toast.
The actual interesting use I've seen is immortal drops to snipe add-ons, you can delay their tech and timings significantly. This is with speed naturally but if you warp in zealots with the prism's field and send them to the ramp, you can buy enough time to snipe a few add-ons
On August 12 2011 09:07 iky43210 wrote: protoss is still not used to their full potential.
warp prison is rarely used, or multiple point attacks.
their builds are extremely one dimensional, and instead they should look for new innovative plays such as earlier HT tech etc
It's been pretty well shown and explained that Warp Prism harass is cost ineffective, as are multi-pronged attacks. Any earlier HT tech is almost definitely more of a detriment because of the immense gas sink that HT are.
I didn't feel like the Toss players including MC really played their best in general. It's like the GSL Toss players had a collective brain fart this season. I look forward to what HuK will do. I'm rooting for him to carry the Brotoss banner.
As far as 1-1-1 goes . . . I simply think a decent number of Toss players are behind in the meta game at this point. New strats develop and it takes a while for the other player/races to catch up. That's not imba as much as the pendulum swinging one way for a time.
Although it was aggravating how inane the QQ about Colo was during the era where they demolished . . . before opponents figured out how AA tears them apart.
The problem with PvT is that the pendulum hasn't swung in P's favor. Ever. It's either been even or in T's favor.
Part of the problem seems to be that lots of people, including casters and Zerg/terran players overrate the protoss units and think that just because they are so expensive and look flashy, they most also be powerful.
the High templar is a good example. if you look closely youd notice that it is pretty much the weakest high tech caster in the game but also the most expensive to tech to. And people are too blinded by hype/brood war memories of HT to see this.
I feel we have to look at the Zerg Metagame slump and apply what the Zerg did to reverse this slump on the Protoss.
1. Zerg figured out the DT and Stargate timings.
2. Zerg incorporated large use of Drops to abuse both Terran Mech and Protoss Death Ball immobility.
3. Zerg found the power of roach-ling aggresion to punish greedy Protoss.
4. Blizzard buffed the Infestor to allow Zerg a fighting chance against Protoss Mid-Late game armies. (Remember when fungal didn't stop blink)
The question is, can Protoss make similar changes or will a Step 4 be nessesary?
Here are a few unexplored, theoretical options:
1. Abuse Chronoboost. The great Korean Terrans Mule every 50 energy, and Zerg spit every 25. Why shouldn't Protoss do it, even on 3 bases. Zerg and Terran do it on 3 bases.
2. Abuse Warp Gate "Map Hacks." Actively place pylons in strategic places around the map. Imagine a pylon placed behind the 1-1-1 Contain which allowed you to cut off reinforcements and then crush it by attacking from two sides?
3. React to the opponents aggression. Is he constantly dropping and poking at my army? Ok I'll do the same with pylons/Warp Prisms OR Is he passively macroing? Ok, I build to my Death-ball while expanding.
4. Figure out the 1-1-1 Timing. Be prepared.
5. Go back to old school 3 Gate 1 Robo Busts to mix it up and punish greedy low rax Bio expands.
All these are theoretical and only involve cleaning up or refining your gameplay.
On August 12 2011 11:35 Kajarn wrote: I feel we have to look at the Zerg Metagame slump and apply what the Zerg did to reverse this slump on the Protoss.
1. Zerg figured out the DT and Stargate timings.
2. Zerg incorporated large use of Drops to abuse both Terran Mech and Protoss Death Ball immobility.
3. Zerg found the power of roach-ling aggresion to punish greedy Protoss.
4. Blizzard buffed the Infestor to allow Zerg a fighting chance against Protoss Mid-Late game armies. (Remember when fungal didn't stop blink)
The question is, can Protoss make similar changes or will a Step 4 be nessesary?
Here are a few unexplored, theoretical options:
1. Abuse Chronoboost. The great Korean Terrans Mule every 50 energy, and Zerg spit every 25. Why shouldn't Protoss do it, even on 3 bases. Zerg and Terran do it on 3 bases.
2. Abuse Warp Gate "Map Hacks." Actively place pylons in strategic places around the map. Imagine a pylon placed behind the 1-1-1 Contain which allowed you to cut off reinforcements and then crush it by attacking from two sides?
3. React to the opponents aggression. Is he constantly dropping and poking at my army? Ok I'll do the same with pylons/Warp Prisms OR Is he passively macroing? Ok, I build to my Death-ball while expanding.
4. Figure out the 1-1-1 Timing. Be prepared.
5. Go back to old school 3 Gate 1 Robo Busts to mix it up and punish greedy low rax Bio expands.
All these are theoretical and only involve cleaning up or refining your gameplay.
1. Comparing Chrono Boost to MULEs and Larva Inject is ridiculous. The advantage Chrono Boost provides is extremely small compared to the MULEs and Larva Inject -- even more so during mid and late game (Not that I'm complaining).
2. Players do this already.
3. The Warp Prism has been discussed a great deal, and while it is used less than it should be, it is nowhere near a potent as a Medivac and its contents.
4. Everyone knows the 'timing' of it.
5. This is very map dependant and Terran can see it coming quite easily.
1. Abuse Chronoboost. The great Korean Terrans Mule every 50 energy, and Zerg spit every 25. Why shouldn't Protoss do it, even on 3 bases. Zerg and Terran do it on 3 bases.
2. Abuse Warp Gate "Map Hacks." Actively place pylons in strategic places around the map. Imagine a pylon placed behind the 1-1-1 Contain which allowed you to cut off reinforcements and then crush it by attacking from two sides?
3. React to the opponents aggression. Is he constantly dropping and poking at my army? Ok I'll do the same with pylons/Warp Prisms OR Is he passively macroing? Ok, I build to my Death-ball while expanding.
4. Figure out the 1-1-1 Timing. Be prepared.
5. Go back to old school 3 Gate 1 Robo Busts to mix it up and punish greedy low rax Bio expands.
All these are theoretical and only involve cleaning up or refining your gameplay.
1. top protoss players use chronoboost to the full potential. lol
2. protoss doesnt have zerglings. gateway units are slow and weak in low numbers, and therefor suck at taking out terran reinforcements. just because something works out for one race doesnt mean every race can do it. different units, different strategies.
3. protoss units are terrible for drop purpose. you can compare it to terran medievac drops
4. people know the timing very well. people are prepared. people tried every possible build and unit composition but everything dies to the tank banshee raven marine combo. if you are smart, you'd figure out why.
5. Terran learned how to prepare and deal with it.
i find it funny that you think that the protoss players who play this game 8-10 hours a day didnt try this stuff already. people have experimented with the warp prism for months but came to the conclusion that its just not effective in most situations because protoss dont have good harass units.
On August 12 2011 11:46 Omegastorm wrote: P Protoss is lacking good players since everybody thinks its easy race
Almost all players picked their race in the beta long before idra gave birth to the "protoss ez" myth. thats a retarded argument sine everyone knows protoss has many extremely good players.
its true though that few good players pick protoss nowdays, but thats because the race is rigid and one dimensional.
I have figured out the roach ling timing. But there is no way to scout as lings have map control. If the Zerg don't go for roach ling all in, and I prepare for it, I am behind. Hallucination is always out too late. The only problem lies w Protoss ability to scout early game. Zealot use to give protoss map control in BW. Is not we don't want to scout, is we can't scout. If u don't play protoss, don't pretend you know what is happening. We don't wish to play risky, we can't play too safe too. Cause we have problem scouting the map.
alot of posters here says protoss aren't meant for multi-point attack, and I got to ask why.
warp prism drop HT can destroy an entire mineral line in faster than hellions ever could. or drop a couple of zealot while pushing will decimate his mineral line as well at almost no cost. And since most zerg don't go muta against toss, you are almost sure to get those zealots or HT out of the harassments.
just because protoss didn't have to harass and multi attack in the past doesn't excuse them for not needing to do them now. If zerg doesn't go mutas, terran would be abusing drop left and right. I don't know why protoss doesn't feel the need to exploit such. They could even use warp prison to protect HT from EMP or use them to land perfect storms/feedback.
There are also mothership, though gimmicky, can be gamebreaking if timed right.
Most pro protoss players have just been playing incredibly stale right now, even their build order are static. It is no wonder that terran and zerg, which both are constantly changing, are ahead of the curve
On August 12 2011 11:59 iky43210 wrote: alot of posters here says protoss aren't meant for multi-point attack, and I got to ask why.
warp prism drop HT can destroy an entire mineral line in faster than hellions ever could. or drop a couple of zealot while pushing will decimate his mineral line as well at almost no cost. And since most zerg don't go muta against toss, you are almost sure to get those zealots or HT out of the harassments.
just because protoss didn't have to harass and multi attack in the past doesn't excuse them for not needing to do them now.
There are also mothership, though gimmicky, can be gamebreaking if timed right.
Most pro protoss players have just been playing incredibly stale right now, even their build order are static. It is no wonder that terran and zerg, which both are constantly changing, are ahead of the curve
1. neither HT or zealots are good for cleaning up mineral lines, because all the opponent has to do is pull away their workers until troops arrive. zealots are too slow (even with speed upgrade)to effectively chase down probes and workers easily survive 1 storm if you pull them out in time. Also, you cant compare HT to banelings or hellions because both of them are cheap and acessible while HTs are expensive and require the highest tech investment in the entire toss tech tree.
2. its not the players that are stale, its the race itself. when will people ever learn that?
On August 12 2011 11:59 iky43210 wrote: alot of posters here says protoss aren't meant for multi-point attack, and I got to ask why.
warp prism drop HT can destroy an entire mineral line in faster than hellions ever could. or drop a couple of zealot while pushing will decimate his mineral line as well at almost no cost. And since most zerg don't go muta against toss, you are almost sure to get those zealots or HT out of the harassments.
just because protoss didn't have to harass and multi attack in the past doesn't excuse them for not needing to do them now. If zerg doesn't go mutas, terran would be abusing drop left and right. I don't know why protoss doesn't feel the need to exploit such. They could even use warp prison to protect HT from EMP or use them to land perfect storms/feedback.
There are also mothership, though gimmicky, can be gamebreaking if timed right.
Most pro protoss players have just been playing incredibly stale right now, even their build order are static. It is no wonder that terran and zerg, which both are constantly changing, are ahead of the curve
Hey man, can we just assume that the people we're playing against are good?
Storming drones is awesome, if the drones sit there and don't run away. The reason hellion drops are a MILLION times better than any other drop, is because they can catch the workers even if the player tries to run them.
Zealots in a mineral line........ are not going to kill anything - they run slower than workers, charge gaurentee's 16 damage - this is not going to kill a worker. Zealots will auto attack the queen first as well.
When your units are designed to have great synergy together - splitting them apart doesn't make sense.
On August 12 2011 11:59 iky43210 wrote: alot of posters here says protoss aren't meant for multi-point attack, and I got to ask why.
warp prism drop HT can destroy an entire mineral line in faster than hellions ever could. or drop a couple of zealot while pushing will decimate his mineral line as well at almost no cost. And since most zerg don't go muta against toss, you are almost sure to get those zealots or HT out of the harassments.
just because protoss didn't have to harass and multi attack in the past doesn't excuse them for not needing to do them now. If zerg doesn't go mutas, terran would be abusing drop left and right. I don't know why protoss doesn't feel the need to exploit such. They could even use warp prison to protect HT from EMP or use them to land perfect storms/feedback.
DT -> the moment zerg sees DT 2 spines and a spore go up at each base. Suddenly he is safe from multi-pronged DT harass.
Warpprism HT. Unlike bane, mm drops, the HT is slower than workers, and you can run from storm with good reaction time.
Dropping both stalkers and zealots is a horrible idea. Until charge, a fast pull will result in ZERO losses, and even with charge, maybe 1-2? Stalkers don't clear mineral lines in small numbers period.
You know why we don't see templar in a warpprism? Terrans blindly get 1-2 vikings normally the moment they see a robo. Warpprism's are just too soft to realistically carry templar around when the terran army has vikings.
they need the reaver! need a specialist shuttle unit, that is for harrassing. protoss harrass isnt seen often enough
i enjoy watching white ras usage of warp prism. reminds me of brood war, saw him ferrying high temps in it earlier. but for example vs T it's sooooo vulnerable to stimmed marines that it seems too weak.
in bw PvT terran would virtually always go mech, no marines making shuttles actually useful
edit:i totally forgot about vikings lol. yeah sc2 protoss harassment is only ever good because it's so ineffective nobody expects it and it has the element of surprise!
it's all about cost effectiveness. the resources required to tech to and support even one drop as protoss is ridiculous compared to for example terran where medivacs and marines have to be produced anyway.
sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
What do you guys think about making hallucinate an innate ability of sentry? Or like 50/50 and even quicker research than it already is. Or making hallucinated observers detect??
I think these could help solve a lot of protoss scouting problems early and give some more options.
I also think that this may help against the 1-1-1 all in because you can hallucinate units to tank some damage?
On August 12 2011 11:59 iky43210 wrote: alot of posters here says protoss aren't meant for multi-point attack, and I got to ask why.
warp prism drop HT can destroy an entire mineral line in faster than hellions ever could. or drop a couple of zealot while pushing will decimate his mineral line as well at almost no cost. And since most zerg don't go muta against toss, you are almost sure to get those zealots or HT out of the harassments.
just because protoss didn't have to harass and multi attack in the past doesn't excuse them for not needing to do them now. If zerg doesn't go mutas, terran would be abusing drop left and right. I don't know why protoss doesn't feel the need to exploit such. They could even use warp prison to protect HT from EMP or use them to land perfect storms/feedback.
There are also mothership, though gimmicky, can be gamebreaking if timed right.
Most pro protoss players have just been playing incredibly stale right now, even their build order are static. It is no wonder that terran and zerg, which both are constantly changing, are ahead of the curve
Have you considered that protoss play is "stale" right now because there are NO viable alternatives?
One simple thing that is making PvZ on a higher level hard for Protoss is the fact that early game, you CANNOT do anything to zerg to the point where they dont stop droning very very early. This is what can cripple the protoss because if you try to compete with zerg on bases/drones, they will have their WAY before you and just overrun you with a higher unit timing with upgrades. Day9 has stated that Protoss just simply can't do anything other than cannon rush but even then you might come out even. In PvT, the warpgate research time is what fucked that much up all over the place. Because of this, as stated, the terran can freely do a CC first or a 1 rax into CC and have no fear of anything because all it takes is 1-2 bunkers and then their tech to ghost with a fast +1 armor and weapons just overruns the Protoss's gateway units. Not to mention the ghost can null atleast 3 key units for Protoss against Terran (Immortals, HTs and Archons). Something has to happen either in the meta game or in game otherwise people are always going to be one step ahead of protoss.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
but it costs so many resources for protoss to support any kind of drop play that if it doesn't deal significant damage the army ball will be noticeably smaller and in danger of being run over. compared to terran or zerg if their drop play doesn't work their army isn't significantly weakened because of it.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
but it costs so many resources for protoss to support any kind of drop play that if it doesn't deal significant damage the army ball will be noticeably smaller and in danger of being run over. compared to terran or zerg if their drop play doesn't work their army isn't significantly weakened because of it.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism. It isn't an significant damage, especially when gas is most likely your limiting resources.
Warp Prism becomes the fastest moving unit with upgrade, so if you have good micro you will have minimal loses when doing drop/pickup with it.
consider the alternative of being able to land great storms and protecting HT from EMP and snipe, in addition to being able to drop and pressure their econ, i'll say its worth it.
I don't personally play protoss, nor do i care about that race, but I see the potential in warp prism play that can change how protoss approaches the game. It took terran months to realize how great hellion is, and there's much many more pros that play the race. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if someone eventually pick up WP and uses it to its full potential in the future.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
Banelings, Roaches, and every single Terran unit are ranged and/or can catch workers. Not only that, Banelings fucking explode. You only need two to fuck up a mineral line. Zealots, HT's, and DT's are all slower than workers and aren't ranged.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism. It isn't an significant damage, especially when gas is most likely your limiting resources.
Warp Prism becomes the fastest moving unit with upgrade, so if you have good micro you will have minimal loses when doing drop/pickup with it.
consider the alternative of being able to land great storms and protecting HT from EMP and snipe, in addition to being able to drop and pressure their econ, i'll say its worth it.
Yes, you would say it's worth it. Now weigh your word against all of the professional players + the host of normal players that are probably better than you. The fact is that the Warp Prism is just entirely too squishy and takes too much valuable time from Robo production until rather late in the game.
I think it would be cool if they made CB more effective late-game. Maybe decreasing its energy requirement once the game passes a certain time, or increasing its longevity by a few seconds. I don't even know if that would even help that much at all, but its something.
I don't like resorting to balance changes though, there just needs to be more creative protoss players out there. Players like Sage or even MC could come out with some brilliant new army comp or strat that finally breaks toss' out of their slump.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
but it costs so many resources for protoss to support any kind of drop play that if it doesn't deal significant damage the army ball will be noticeably smaller and in danger of being run over. compared to terran or zerg if their drop play doesn't work their army isn't significantly weakened because of it.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism. It isn't an significant damage, especially when gas is most likely your limiting resources.
Warp Prism becomes the fastest moving unit with upgrade, so if you have good micro you will have minimal loses when doing drop/pickup with it.
consider the alternative of being able to land great storms and protecting HT from EMP and snipe, in addition to being able to drop and pressure their econ, i'll say its worth it.
Warp Prism is great late game, but I think it's risky mid game.
You're investing into the Robo tech route just to get the Warp Prism which makes your army ridiculously small and Zealots in the mineral line is not even close to being as effective as MM.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
Banelings, Roaches, and every single Terran unit are ranged and/or can catch workers. Not only that, Banelings fucking explode. You only need two to fuck up a mineral line. Zealots, HT's, and DT's are all slower than workers and aren't ranged.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism. It isn't an significant damage, especially when gas is most likely your limiting resources.
Warp Prism becomes the fastest moving unit with upgrade, so if you have good micro you will have minimal loses when doing drop/pickup with it.
consider the alternative of being able to land great storms and protecting HT from EMP and snipe, in addition to being able to drop and pressure their econ, i'll say its worth it.
Yes, you would say it's worth it. Now weigh your word against all of the professional players + the host of normal players that are probably better than you. The fact is that the Warp Prism is just entirely too squishy and takes too much valuable time from Robo production until rather late in the game.
are you one of the top protoss in the world?
just because the unit is underused, doesn't mean its not amazing. Hellion is such a gamebreaking unit yet it only RECENTLY been utilize for all matchup (less for protoss).
Let me rephrase it again. Warp prism, fastest unit. Drones will not be able to outrun HT, assuming player even spotted it first and reacted it in time.
Speed bling are faster than workers, but assuming if that slow ass overlord even reach them in the first place. WP can zoom in from afar and drop at the edge of the mineral line and storm before you realize. Its about the same except you have no risk of doing such drop
I still think observers should just come out of the nexus but require a cybercore to make. You could even increase the build time for them as well. Now if you want to scout you have to build an observer and therefore cut down on the amount of probes you will have out. If you don't care to scout, keep pumping probes. Hell, I'd be happy with an observer taking 60 seconds, as long as I'm not forced into robo every game I want to scout.
On August 12 2011 12:37 Tezzick wrote: I think it would be cool if they made CB more effective late-game. Maybe decreasing its energy requirement once the game passes a certain time, or increasing its longevity by a few seconds. I don't even know if that would even help that much at all, but its something.
I don't like resorting to balance changes though, there just needs to be more creative protoss players out there. Players like Sage or even MC could come out with some brilliant new army comp or strat that finally breaks toss' out of their slump.
Either way, thats my 2 cents lol.
Can you and everyone else shut up about toss needs to be more creative? What do you want toss players to do? Create a magical new unit that makes us safe in the early game, holds off the 1-1-1 all in and allows us to do something other than tech to collo or HT to stay alive in the mid to late game?
If you don't play toss, and you don't understand how rigid the race is, then shut up. Seriously - anyone who says that toss are just not being creative and should come up with a "brilliant unit comp" to break the slump is just a moron. There are X amount of units, and X amount of compositions. It's not like there are infinite combinations and toss are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs instead of finding the best solutions.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
but it costs so many resources for protoss to support any kind of drop play that if it doesn't deal significant damage the army ball will be noticeably smaller and in danger of being run over. compared to terran or zerg if their drop play doesn't work their army isn't significantly weakened because of it.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism.
Well, for a fast prism: Robotics Facility: 200/100 Warp Prism: 200 Robotics Bay: 200/200 Gravitic Drives: 100/100
And then for the expensive harass options: Twilight Council: 150/100 Templar Archives: 150/200 and/or Dark Shrine: 100/250
Its just way too expensive and takes too long. And if you can somehow survive in getting speedprism, HT, DT, and gates you HAVE to do damage. You invest too much. It might work but eventually Z will throw pre-emptive spores and spines at all their bases. Harass shuts down. They'll figure out timings where we're teching too fast. We're back to square one.
I'm all for thinking of different ways of playing but you make it sound like protoss tech is so readily available and accessible.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
Banelings, Roaches, and every single Terran unit are ranged and/or can catch workers. Not only that, Banelings fucking explode. You only need two to fuck up a mineral line. Zealots, HT's, and DT's are all slower than workers and aren't ranged.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism. It isn't an significant damage, especially when gas is most likely your limiting resources.
Warp Prism becomes the fastest moving unit with upgrade, so if you have good micro you will have minimal loses when doing drop/pickup with it.
consider the alternative of being able to land great storms and protecting HT from EMP and snipe, in addition to being able to drop and pressure their econ, i'll say its worth it.
Yes, you would say it's worth it. Now weigh your word against all of the professional players + the host of normal players that are probably better than you. The fact is that the Warp Prism is just entirely too squishy and takes too much valuable time from Robo production until rather late in the game.
are you one of the top protoss in the world?
just because the unit is underused, doesn't mean its not amazing. Hellion is such a gamebreaking unit yet it only RECENTLY been utilize for all matchup (less for protoss).
Let me rephrase it again. Warp prism, fastest unit. Drones will not be able to outrun HT, assuming player even spotted it first and reacted it in time.
Speed bling are faster than workers, but assuming if that slow ass overlord even reach them in the first place. WP can zoom in from afar and drop at the edge of the mineral line and storm before you realize. Its about the same except you have no risk of doing such drop
Late game warp prism play is nothing new. People have been doing it. Especially high temp drops/dt warpin.The problem is early game and mid game toss play and warp prism just isn't that great no matter how you think about it.
Mid game toss is extremely weak in straight up fight already. The most common tactic of a terran player is to spread toss out using drops then crush toss's smaller main army and win. Warp prism does not help. In fact if you go warp prism not only will you have wasted precious robo time(less obs, colossus or immortal), but also you are spreading yourself thin trying to use units to snipe workers/buildings"none dt/ht gateway units are actually terrible at both".
You have to understand the what the each race is trying to accomplish before making a suggestion. Tossing out a unit that toss don't usually work with and say be creative with that does not help.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
Banelings, Roaches, and every single Terran unit are ranged and/or can catch workers. Not only that, Banelings fucking explode. You only need two to fuck up a mineral line. Zealots, HT's, and DT's are all slower than workers and aren't ranged.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism. It isn't an significant damage, especially when gas is most likely your limiting resources.
Warp Prism becomes the fastest moving unit with upgrade, so if you have good micro you will have minimal loses when doing drop/pickup with it.
consider the alternative of being able to land great storms and protecting HT from EMP and snipe, in addition to being able to drop and pressure their econ, i'll say its worth it.
Yes, you would say it's worth it. Now weigh your word against all of the professional players + the host of normal players that are probably better than you. The fact is that the Warp Prism is just entirely too squishy and takes too much valuable time from Robo production until rather late in the game.
are you one of the top protoss in the world?
just because the unit is underused, doesn't mean its not amazing. Hellion is such a gamebreaking unit yet it only RECENTLY been utilize for all matchup (less for protoss).
Let me rephrase it again. Warp prism, fastest unit. Drones will not be able to outrun HT, assuming player even spotted it first and reacted it in time.
Speed bling are faster than workers, but assuming if that slow ass overlord even reach them in the first place. WP can zoom in from afar and drop at the edge of the mineral line and storm before you realize. Its about the same except you have no risk of doing such drop
There have been numerous builds using blue flame helions. The recent "change" was the timing and the addition of the elevator+marine support. In TvT its just the general shifting to mech is leading to higher uses of helions as mineral dump. Even in TvT wasn't there a build completely built around the use of BFH and banshees?
Warp Prism has been used and attempted. Even when successfully executed most protoss pros agree its weak and the risk far far outweighs the reward. The higher the risk, the higher the reward should be. In the case of warp prisms this simply isn't true. Not to mention lack of synergy. T use medivacs for healing in addition to drops. Z use OL which is their supply (double edged sword but again for the risk there is a large reward e.g. using 10 OL is a huge risk but the reward of getting that many roaches or lings into a toss main when army out in natural = huge). Warp Prism only acts as a pylon for warping in. This is pretty good but again the lack of synergy basically leads to the use of 1 Warp Prism instead of multiple as it'll just eat into your army for little gain.
Warp Prism needs to be changed and/or toss need to be tweaked to have a harass unit and reduce the power of 200/200 Toss deathball. I'm sure most toss would gladly give up some "OP"ness to have the flexibility of harassing effectively somehow.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
but it costs so many resources for protoss to support any kind of drop play that if it doesn't deal significant damage the army ball will be noticeably smaller and in danger of being run over. compared to terran or zerg if their drop play doesn't work their army isn't significantly weakened because of it.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism.
Well, for a fast prism: Robotics Facility: 200/100 Warp Prism: 200 Robotics Bay: 200/200 Gravitic Drives: 100/100
And then for the expensive harass options: Twilight Council: 150/100 Templar Archives: 150/200 and/or Dark Shrine: 100/250
Its just way too expensive and takes too long. And if you can somehow survive in getting speedprism, HT, DT, and gates you HAVE to do damage. You invest too much. It might work but eventually Z will throw pre-emptive spores and spines at all their bases. Harass shuts down. They'll figure out timings where we're teching too fast. We're back to square one.
I'm all for thinking of different ways of playing but you make it sound like protoss tech is so readily available and accessible.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
but it costs so many resources for protoss to support any kind of drop play that if it doesn't deal significant damage the army ball will be noticeably smaller and in danger of being run over. compared to terran or zerg if their drop play doesn't work their army isn't significantly weakened because of it.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism.
Well, for a fast prism: Robotics Facility: 200/100 Warp Prism: 200 Robotics Bay: 200/200 Gravitic Drives: 100/100
And then for the expensive harass options: Twilight Council: 150/100 Templar Archives: 150/200 and/or Dark Shrine: 100/250
Its just way too expensive and takes too long. And if you can somehow survive in getting speedprism, HT, DT, and gates you HAVE to do damage. You invest too much. It might work but eventually Z will throw pre-emptive spores and spines at all their bases. Harass shuts down. They'll figure out timings where we're teching too fast. We're back to square one.
I'm all for thinking of different ways of playing but you make it sound like protoss tech is so readily available and accessible.
this. im done discussing the issue with icky.
he's not even smart enough to suggest storm drops would be efficient with sentry in the mix to forcefield the workers in, as any decent player will react fast enough for minuscule losses from storm drops.
storm drop in bw was literally about 10,000x more effective
its not just a balance thing as well. drops make for fun viewing, therefore hopefully in next expansion we'll see a reaver style unit specifically for cost effective dropping for protoss.
just because the unit is underused, doesn't mean its not amazing. Hellion is such a gamebreaking unit yet it only RECENTLY been utilize for all matchup (less for protoss).
Let me rephrase it again. Warp prism, fastest unit. Drones will not be able to outrun HT, assuming player even spotted it first and reacted it in time.
Speed bling are faster than workers, but assuming if that slow ass overlord even reach them in the first place. WP can zoom in from afar and drop at the edge of the mineral line and storm before you realize. Its about the same except you have no risk of doing such drop
Honestly, I think Terran players have explored their race the least of any group of players. Ghosts were obviously good before their cost buff. Terrans won with simple mmm play and ghosts were just too expensive/hard to use. Toss adapted and Terrans had to use it.
BFH have been so obviously good since they were first released. It wasn't unknown to other races, we all complained a little about it. Terrans started having problems with zergs and they found a way to incorporate such an obviously good skill.
Ravens will eventually join this crowd of discovered units for Terran.
The terran experience is no way analgous to the toss and zerg experience. Terran has faced less developmental pressure and is less fleshed out than Toss. Hell They don't need to be with their bundle of timings. I appreciate the sentiment but it is an incorrect way to understand the current toss predicament.
I still belive protoss players are _NOT_ playing the game properly. Recently i've discovered the power of Mech in TvP playing it similar to BW and beat a few masters players now with it so its made it legit in my mind that its a viable style.
Lets look at BW its an extremely difficult RTS and its increibly figured out to the smallest details of BO, so you can actually win games by a BO very easily.
SC2 is increibly random still and most people have it in their head the game is lets make blob X and fight blob Y and see what happens so basically every game is a coin flip. The game is drastically starting to change in my opinion with the meta-game shift for mech in TvT and its because i guess there is a larger % of terran players figuring out the game in more detail.
There has yet to be one protoss player who wins games in a fair passive macro style. If you look at OGS MC's play even from GSL open season 3 he was just winning by abusing void sentry timming all in's. And really no one had a good answer for what he was doing for a very long time and this continued for a protoss dominance abusing FF against blob armies. And the silly collosus timmings.
And i think the answer lies that protoss players dont tech properly nor do they expand enough. Think about modern ladder style PvT vs the usualy bio play. Most protoss players with 2 gate robo expand or 1 gate robo expand into 3 or 4 gate robo collosus and attack. So think about this.
Gateways units zealot sentry stalker Teir 1. going stright to collosus teir 3. So when they loose this army they loose the game because their pretty much all in because of the sheer investment into that tech which they cant replace. So they try for their 3rd base and try for HT for a magical defense using Psi storm and they snowball out of the game.
Why dont protoss players play passivly. All of protoss units are natually very cost efficent against anything. So why not try for more bases. go for a 1 or 2 gate FE into twilight and HT build, for archons, they really really havent been explored enough about how amazing they are, then you can secure a 3rd easily and replace losses easily and upgrade properly and you can tech properly instead of these awkward jumps in play which most protoss do and no one seems to try for a style like that. They all are so excited about warp gate timmings and proxying their pylon in the sneakiest of places.
The reason everyone rages at protoss players on ladder is because of all thse cute'sy moves they use and abuse to win game
The only protoss players inovating in this area in my opinion are Tyler or Artosis.
This brings me to my last point players like Idra, Tyler, Ret, White-RA, Sen really won't begin to dominate sc2 in my opinion untill this game becomes less random. IF you look at their BW games they were extremely talented so many sc2 players havent played BW but its stupidly difficult to be good at BW. And those were some of the top foreigners.
And if you look at TSL3 idra vs cruncher so many people dont understand the rage idra had its because idra really really is that much better than him the only reason people like naniwa, Huk or cruncher are even well known in my opinion is because this game is so random. In a few years time they might keep up but i really dont think they will be on top what so ever..
If no one understands this post its because they havent played BW, and understood the finer details of a 1 rax expand or siege expand etc... and how detailed they really are as builds into the mid game etc and what timmings you need to hit and why and when to spot them.
There is absolutly nothing like this in sc2 yet and untill it is sc2 is going to remain very much about random blop vs blop. But mech TvT is finally begining to look like a game about execution and macro as well as just raw ability at RTS. rather than cheesy timmings which for the most part is all protoss players have been doing for ages.
I think a few changes made by blizz in the beta if reverted would help a lot.
1: Immortal build time increased (implemented as 3 immo timing was unstoppable on steppes) 2. Forge build time increase (cannon rushes in lower leagues?) 3. Sentry attack reduced from 8 to 6 (players building lots of sentries, small maps and chokes) 4. Void ray attack range decreases from 7 to 6 (Could siege terran natural on steppes and rines couldn't hit back) 5. Zealot build time increase (Zealot rushes on small/2player maps hard for zerg to hold)
Many balance changes were made cause of the small maps which for the most part is no longer the case with our map pool (not taking the new shitty maps into consideration). I think if these changes were reverted toss would have an easier time in the early game and against 1-1-1. Maybe its too simple of a fix but I for one have never liked these changes from the get go and their reasons for implementing them. Discuss?
On August 12 2011 12:56 redbrain wrote: I still belive protoss players are _NOT_ playing the game properly. Recently i've discovered the power of Mech in TvP playing it similar to BW and beat a few masters players now with it so its made it legit in my mind that its a viable style.
Lets look at BW its an extremely difficult RTS and its increibly figured out to the smallest details of BO, so you can actually win games by a BO very easily.
SC2 is increibly random still and most people have it in their head the game is lets make blob X and fight blob Y and see what happens so basically every game is a coin flip. The game is drastically starting to change in my opinion with the meta-game shift for mech in TvT and its because i guess there is a larger % of terran players figuring out the game in more detail.
There has yet to be one protoss player who wins games in a fair passive macro style. If you look at OGS MC's play even from GSL open season 3 he was just winning by abusing void sentry timming all in's. And really no one had a good answer for what he was doing for a very long time and this continued for a protoss dominance abusing FF against blob armies. And the silly collosus timmings.
And i think the answer lies that protoss players dont tech properly nor do they expand enough. Think about modern ladder style PvT vs the usualy bio play. Most protoss players with 2 gate robo expand or 1 gate robo expand into 3 or 4 gate robo collosus and attack. So think about this.
Gateways units zealot sentry stalker Teir 1. going stright to collosus teir 3. So when they loose this army they loose the game because their pretty much all in because of the sheer investment into that tech which they cant replace. So they try for their 3rd base and try for HT for a magical defense using Psi storm and they snowball out of the game.
Why dont protoss players play passivly. All of protoss units are natually very cost efficent against anything. So why not try for more bases. go for a 1 or 2 gate FE into twilight and HT build.
The only protoss players inovating in this area in my opinion are Tyler or Artosis.
This brings me to my last point players like Idra, Tyler, Ret, White-RA, Sen really won't begin to dominate sc2 in my opinion untill this game becomes less random. IF you look at their BW games they were extremely talented so many sc2 players havent played BW but its stupidly difficult to be good at BW. And those were some of the top foreigners.
And if you look at TSL3 idra vs cruncher so many people dont understand the rage idra had its because idra really really is that much better than him the only reason people like naniwa, Huk or cruncher are even well known in my opinion is because this game is so random. In a few years time they might keep up but i really dont think they will be on top what so ever..
If no one understands this post its because they havent played BW, and understood the finer details of a 1 rax expand or siege expand etc... and how detailed they really are as builds into the mid game etc and what timmings you need to hit and why and when to spot them.
There is absolutly nothing like this in sc2 yet and untill it is sc2 is going to remain very much about random blop vs blop. But mech TvT is finally begining to look like a game about execution and macro as well as just raw ability at RTS. rather than cheesy timmings which for the most part is all protoss players have been doing for ages.
Passive play for PvT is already standard.
Passive play for PvZ is impossible. The problem is if you don't pressure zerg. Zerg will max when you are at 120 supply which means as supply effective as you can be you will still die.
Also you must realize other than colossus and temps. Toss units are the least cost effective. They are very supply effective which are two completely different things.
Also don't bring idra adn how he is "really really" better than "x" toss player. It is not smart in a toss dominated thread.
protoss player's need to expand their range of styles jyp's warp prisms gave me nerd chills. ~ Protoss players have mostly been doing the same thing for longer than any other race because it was working just look at zerg we explored soo many different styles because we were struggling now we have variety i think protoss players need to explore more styles like that sentry drop from JYP was amazing protoss players need to start evolving just like the other races did and they'll start winning again
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
For everyone who just says "everything is balanced, just play more creative", how do you reconcile your view with the fact that Blizzard is actively patching balance and that actually does affect the game. If everything was so balanced how come WG research time was nerfed twice since launch to the point where a 4 gate comes a full minute later. Zergs would not be taking quick thirds if the old WG research time was still around.
On August 12 2011 12:56 redbrain wrote: I still belive protoss players are _NOT_ playing the game properly. Recently i've discovered the power of Mech in TvP playing it similar to BW and beat a few masters players now with it so its made it legit in my mind that its a viable style.
Lets look at BW its an extremely difficult RTS and its increibly figured out to the smallest details of BO, so you can actually win games by a BO very easily.
SC2 is increibly random still and most people have it in their head the game is lets make blob X and fight blob Y and see what happens so basically every game is a coin flip. The game is drastically starting to change in my opinion with the meta-game shift for mech in TvT and its because i guess there is a larger % of terran players figuring out the game in more detail.
There has yet to be one protoss player who wins games in a fair passive macro style. If you look at OGS MC's play even from GSL open season 3 he was just winning by abusing void sentry timming all in's. And really no one had a good answer for what he was doing for a very long time and this continued for a protoss dominance abusing FF against blob armies. And the silly collosus timmings.
And i think the answer lies that protoss players dont tech properly nor do they expand enough. Think about modern ladder style PvT vs the usualy bio play. Most protoss players with 2 gate robo expand or 1 gate robo expand into 3 or 4 gate robo collosus and attack. So think about this.
Gateways units zealot sentry stalker Teir 1. going stright to collosus teir 3. So when they loose this army they loose the game because their pretty much all in because of the sheer investment into that tech which they cant replace. So they try for their 3rd base and try for HT for a magical defense using Psi storm and they snowball out of the game.
Why dont protoss players play passivly. All of protoss units are natually very cost efficent against anything. So why not try for more bases. go for a 1 or 2 gate FE into twilight and HT build, for archons, they really really havent been explored enough about how amazing they are, then you can secure a 3rd easily and replace losses easily and upgrade properly and you can tech properly instead of these awkward jumps in play which most protoss do and no one seems to try for a style like that. They all are so excited about warp gate timmings and proxying their pylon in the sneakiest of places.
The reason everyone rages at protoss players on ladder is because of all thse cute'sy moves they use and abuse to win game
The only protoss players inovating in this area in my opinion are Tyler or Artosis.
This brings me to my last point players like Idra, Tyler, Ret, White-RA, Sen really won't begin to dominate sc2 in my opinion untill this game becomes less random. IF you look at their BW games they were extremely talented so many sc2 players havent played BW but its stupidly difficult to be good at BW. And those were some of the top foreigners.
And if you look at TSL3 idra vs cruncher so many people dont understand the rage idra had its because idra really really is that much better than him the only reason people like naniwa, Huk or cruncher are even well known in my opinion is because this game is so random. In a few years time they might keep up but i really dont think they will be on top what so ever..
If no one understands this post its because they havent played BW, and understood the finer details of a 1 rax expand or siege expand etc... and how detailed they really are as builds into the mid game etc and what timmings you need to hit and why and when to spot them.
There is absolutly nothing like this in sc2 yet and untill it is sc2 is going to remain very much about random blop vs blop. But mech TvT is finally begining to look like a game about execution and macro as well as just raw ability at RTS. rather than cheesy timmings which for the most part is all protoss players have been doing for ages.
facepalm. Did you just say Artosis and Tyler are our hopes for innovative protoss? Oh man. They basically do cute stuff that works in some ladder games, try it in a tournament, and just lose.
Please explain how we are going to expand faster than we already do. A quick third against zerg can't be defended, it's too spread out for how few units you have and they'll just mass roach/ling you and crush you because your army is significantly weaker after building the expo + additional probes. Taking a quick third against a terran is just begging for a two base timing push to steamroll you. There are reasons that pro players take their expos at certain timings, it's not "oh, well, guess I should probably expand now or something".
Also lol at cheesy timings. Protoss gets crushed by 1-1-1, what kind of "cheesy timing" makes us lose to that? Protoss gets outmacro'd by zerg easily being able to play greedy, defend any pressure we can put against them, and take an extremely fast third. What kind of "cheesy timing" makes us lose to that/
multiprong drop by protoss is not viable b/c once Zerg and Terran scout colossus, they'll have vikings and corruptors anyway, and warprism is like paper plane. Too expensive and fragile. I lost my warprism to easily many times compare to hellions and marines drops while playing Terran.
On August 12 2011 12:37 Tezzick wrote: I think it would be cool if they made CB more effective late-game. Maybe decreasing its energy requirement once the game passes a certain time, or increasing its longevity by a few seconds. I don't even know if that would even help that much at all, but its something.
I don't like resorting to balance changes though, there just needs to be more creative protoss players out there. Players like Sage or even MC could come out with some brilliant new army comp or strat that finally breaks toss' out of their slump.
Either way, thats my 2 cents lol.
the problem is, we already have to throw everything and the kitchen sink at terrrans and zergs to win. You really cant innovate if your already using everything. What could we possibly use more of? at end game we already pretty much have all of our gate way units in our unit comp and most of our robo units countered. That leaves what? voids are already spammed reactionary against brood lords, the only thing you dont see every is carrier/mothership. even then thats near impossible to transistion into and stop ling run byes with slow units... White-ra has had some success by forge expanding straight into 2 base carrier but nothing revolutionary...
alot of the problems could be fixed by giving us attack upgrades and stuff on our cannons for defense. that way putting 2 cannons behind your mineral line will actually deter mutas, and overlords from dropping. same with terran. as the old way to easily stop terran drops was to warp in HT with the amulet. which cant be done anymore. or something else that would be cool is to allow us to chrono boost cannons so they shoot faster...
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
but it costs so many resources for protoss to support any kind of drop play that if it doesn't deal significant damage the army ball will be noticeably smaller and in danger of being run over. compared to terran or zerg if their drop play doesn't work their army isn't significantly weakened because of it.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism.
Well, for a fast prism: Robotics Facility: 200/100 Warp Prism: 200 Robotics Bay: 200/200 Gravitic Drives: 100/100
And then for the expensive harass options: Twilight Council: 150/100 Templar Archives: 150/200 and/or Dark Shrine: 100/250
Its just way too expensive and takes too long. And if you can somehow survive in getting speedprism, HT, DT, and gates you HAVE to do damage. You invest too much. It might work but eventually Z will throw pre-emptive spores and spines at all their bases. Harass shuts down. They'll figure out timings where we're teching too fast. We're back to square one.
I'm all for thinking of different ways of playing but you make it sound like protoss tech is so readily available and accessible.
I dunno why you even bothered replying to him, aside from making a stupid arguement he didn't even get his figures right; Warp prism costs 400/100 (Robo 200/100, Warp Prism 200min). It is pretty clear that a lot of people in here have never actually played protoss at all, and their useless banter is quite frustrating to read.
On August 12 2011 13:02 Mutality wrote: protoss player's need to expand their range of styles jyp's warp prisms gave me nerd chills. ~ Protoss players have mostly been doing the same thing for longer than any other race because it was working just look at zerg we explored soo many different styles because we were struggling now we have variety i think protoss players need to explore more styles like that sentry drop from JYP was amazing protoss players need to start evolving just like the other races did and they'll start winning again
Dude everyone in this thread said a billion times. The reason why zergs started to incorporate infestors was due to a huge buff that decimate both armored/unarmored units. Toss have been exploring new tactics.
2 base double robo colossus against zergs colossus+mass stalker colossus+stalker+void rays 2 base high gateway pressure(6-7 gate) mass blink stalker Forge opening into mass gateway(remember this was at one time thought to be impossible due to roach rushes). Dt openings Stargate opening 3 gate expo forge or 1 gate Fe into stargate to deny 3rd+roach pressure templar zealot archon templar zealot immortal 1 base 3 gate/stargate void ray to attack walled front 1 base void rays+3 gate warpin
All of those were builds/opening that waas developed as the game progressed. Protoss have been innovating builds timings and more.
You cannot factor in already necessary tech and call it part of the costs for Warp prism.
You WILL get storm, you WILL get a robo, this is nothing new. If anything you are paying 100/100 for the tech and 200 for each warp prison.
And no, the way hellions are used today are drastically different from how it was used just few months ago. Even players are experimenting new builds, with the most recent thorzain showcase his viking/banshees/hellion/raven style against mech play.
There is no point of argue with people thats so set on calling the race stale and weak without wanting to try new style of play. Actually alot of people here reminds me of early zerg, just crying and repel any new ideas.
WP is not useful early and mid game, but I believe it to be a potent unit for late game uses where either clutch storms or harassing their 4th/5th base will win you the game
1. Abuse Chronoboost. The great Korean Terrans Mule every 50 energy, and Zerg spit every 25. Why shouldn't Protoss do it, even on 3 bases. Zerg and Terran do it on 3 bases.
2. Abuse Warp Gate "Map Hacks." Actively place pylons in strategic places around the map. Imagine a pylon placed behind the 1-1-1 Contain which allowed you to cut off reinforcements and then crush it by attacking from two sides?
3. React to the opponents aggression. Is he constantly dropping and poking at my army? Ok I'll do the same with pylons/Warp Prisms OR Is he passively macroing? Ok, I build to my Death-ball while expanding.
4. Figure out the 1-1-1 Timing. Be prepared.
5. Go back to old school 3 Gate 1 Robo Busts to mix it up and punish greedy low rax Bio expands.
All these are theoretical and only involve cleaning up or refining your gameplay.
1. top protoss players use chronoboost to the full potential. lol
2. protoss doesnt have zerglings. gateway units are slow and weak in low numbers, and therefor suck at taking out terran reinforcements. just because something works out for one race doesnt mean every race can do it. different units, different strategies.
3. protoss units are terrible for drop purpose. you can compare it to terran medievac drops
4. people know the timing very well. people are prepared. people tried every possible build and unit composition but everything dies to the tank banshee raven marine combo. if you are smart, you'd figure out why.
5. Terran learned how to prepare and deal with it.
i find it funny that you think that the protoss players who play this game 8-10 hours a day didnt try this stuff already. people have experimented with the warp prism for months but came to the conclusion that its just not effective in most situations because protoss dont have good harass units.
2. Stalkers might not be lings, but they can still slow the trickle of marines, tanks and bashees to support the 1-1-1. Or atleast force the terran to wait for a full cycle to reinforce.
3. Who said they had to be as good as medivacs? What you want a warp prism to do heal shields? 4 Zealots are far scarier than 8 lings when droped. They still force Zerg to make/have units and Terran to respond.
4. If everything dies to Marine, Tank and Bashee, why isn't that Terrans Core unit comp? Clearly Bio > Marine, Tank, Banshee. Its just Tanks and Banshees get around Force Field early game. Make less sentries and Tech to Immortal in the 9 minutes before the 1-1-1 hits.
The 1-1-1 and marine, tank, banshee is apparently God. I feel it just crushes the protoss with 6 sentries, 2 stalkers and 1 zealot who laughs at Bio pressure with Force Fields/Gaurdian Shield.
Blink Stalkers are a pretty good mid-game army vs Zerg. Archon/Zealot/Templar against Terran.
1. Abuse Chronoboost. The great Korean Terrans Mule every 50 energy, and Zerg spit every 25. Why shouldn't Protoss do it, even on 3 bases. Zerg and Terran do it on 3 bases.
2. Abuse Warp Gate "Map Hacks." Actively place pylons in strategic places around the map. Imagine a pylon placed behind the 1-1-1 Contain which allowed you to cut off reinforcements and then crush it by attacking from two sides?
3. React to the opponents aggression. Is he constantly dropping and poking at my army? Ok I'll do the same with pylons/Warp Prisms OR Is he passively macroing? Ok, I build to my Death-ball while expanding.
4. Figure out the 1-1-1 Timing. Be prepared.
5. Go back to old school 3 Gate 1 Robo Busts to mix it up and punish greedy low rax Bio expands.
All these are theoretical and only involve cleaning up or refining your gameplay.
1. top protoss players use chronoboost to the full potential. lol
2. protoss doesnt have zerglings. gateway units are slow and weak in low numbers, and therefor suck at taking out terran reinforcements. just because something works out for one race doesnt mean every race can do it. different units, different strategies.
3. protoss units are terrible for drop purpose. you can compare it to terran medievac drops
4. people know the timing very well. people are prepared. people tried every possible build and unit composition but everything dies to the tank banshee raven marine combo. if you are smart, you'd figure out why.
5. Terran learned how to prepare and deal with it.
i find it funny that you think that the protoss players who play this game 8-10 hours a day didnt try this stuff already. people have experimented with the warp prism for months but came to the conclusion that its just not effective in most situations because protoss dont have good harass units.
2. Stalkers might not be lings, but they can still slow the trickle of marines, tanks and bashees to support the 1-1-1. Or atleast force the terran to wait for a full cycle to reinforce.
3. Who said they had to be as good as medivacs? What you want a warp prism to do heal shields? 4 Zealots are far scarier than 8 lings when droped. They still force Zerg to make/have units and Terran to respond.
4. If everything dies to Marine, Tank and Bashee, why isn't that Terrans Core unit comp? Clearly Bio > Marine, Tank, Banshee. Its just Tanks and Banshees get around Force Field early game. Make less sentries and Tech to Immortal in the 9 minutes before the 1-1-1 hits.
The 1-1-1 and marine, tank, banshee is apparently God. I feel it just crushes the protoss with 6 sentries, 2 stalkers and 1 zealot who laughs at Bio pressure with Force Fields/Gaurdian Shield.
Blink Stalkers are a pretty good mid-game army vs Zerg. Archon/Zealot/Templar against Terran.
Note: I do feel Ghosts should go back to 150/150.
2. tanks outrange stalkers and outdps stalkers, banshees RAPE stalkers. If it was pure marine it'd be fairly easy to deal with with pure stalker, but unfortunately, if you get more than 4 stalkers or so, you'll just die because stalkers melt.
3. Without charge a zealot drop will kill exactly zero workers. With charge you might kill 2-3. 8 lings will still kill more workers more consistently than 4 zealots.
4. You don't play protoss, because people do make immortals. In fact, they make whatever the hell they can because even cutting workers a minute in advance for units they don't hold.
On August 12 2011 13:08 BuddhaMonk wrote: The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
For everyone who just says "everything is balanced, just play more creative", how do you reconcile your view with the fact that Blizzard is actively patching balance and that actually does affect the game. If everything was so balanced how come WG research time was nerfed twice since launch to the point where a 4 gate comes a full minute later. Zergs would not be taking quick thirds if the old WG research time was still around.
Exactly. Fungel now does DOUBLE the DPS to unarmored and 260% more DPS to amorded. I don't think people understand how little tweaks can DRASTICALLY shift this game. Make storm 1 sec, i.e. double DPS and protoss would never lose late game.
Protoss has had a series of "small nerfs" since MC was on top and 50/50 win rates with Terran and was crushing zerg. They went too far though.
Nerfs to WG so you're a whole round of units late to defend all ins or pressure FEs. Nerfs to VR so VR is largely ineffective at early pressure.
1. Abuse Chronoboost. The great Korean Terrans Mule every 50 energy, and Zerg spit every 25. Why shouldn't Protoss do it, even on 3 bases. Zerg and Terran do it on 3 bases.
2. Abuse Warp Gate "Map Hacks." Actively place pylons in strategic places around the map. Imagine a pylon placed behind the 1-1-1 Contain which allowed you to cut off reinforcements and then crush it by attacking from two sides?
3. React to the opponents aggression. Is he constantly dropping and poking at my army? Ok I'll do the same with pylons/Warp Prisms OR Is he passively macroing? Ok, I build to my Death-ball while expanding.
4. Figure out the 1-1-1 Timing. Be prepared.
5. Go back to old school 3 Gate 1 Robo Busts to mix it up and punish greedy low rax Bio expands.
All these are theoretical and only involve cleaning up or refining your gameplay.
1. top protoss players use chronoboost to the full potential. lol
2. protoss doesnt have zerglings. gateway units are slow and weak in low numbers, and therefor suck at taking out terran reinforcements. just because something works out for one race doesnt mean every race can do it. different units, different strategies.
3. protoss units are terrible for drop purpose. you can compare it to terran medievac drops
4. people know the timing very well. people are prepared. people tried every possible build and unit composition but everything dies to the tank banshee raven marine combo. if you are smart, you'd figure out why.
5. Terran learned how to prepare and deal with it.
i find it funny that you think that the protoss players who play this game 8-10 hours a day didnt try this stuff already. people have experimented with the warp prism for months but came to the conclusion that its just not effective in most situations because protoss dont have good harass units.
2. Stalkers might not be lings, but they can still slow the trickle of marines, tanks and bashees to support the 1-1-1. Or atleast force the terran to wait for a full cycle to reinforce.
3. Who said they had to be as good as medivacs? What you want a warp prism to do heal shields? 4 Zealots are far scarier than 8 lings when droped. They still force Zerg to make/have units and Terran to respond.
4. If everything dies to Marine, Tank and Bashee, why isn't that Terrans Core unit comp? Clearly Bio > Marine, Tank, Banshee. Its just Tanks and Banshees get around Force Field early game. Make less sentries and Tech to Immortal in the 9 minutes before the 1-1-1 hits.
The 1-1-1 and marine, tank, banshee is apparently God. I feel it just crushes the protoss with 6 sentries, 2 stalkers and 1 zealot who laughs at Bio pressure with Force Fields/Gaurdian Shield.
Blink Stalkers are a pretty good mid-game army vs Zerg. Archon/Zealot/Templar against Terran.
Note: I do feel Ghosts should go back to 150/150.
2. tanks outrange stalkers and outdps stalkers, banshees RAPE stalkers. If it was pure marine it'd be fairly easy to deal with with pure stalker, but unfortunately, if you get more than 4 stalkers or so, you'll just die because stalkers melt.
3. Without charge a zealot drop will kill exactly zero workers. With charge you might kill 2-3. 8 lings will still kill more workers more consistently than 4 zealots.
4. You don't play protoss, because people do make immortals. In fact, they make whatever the hell they can because even cutting workers a minute in advance for units they don't hold.
2. Where does it say make pure stalker? Using the mobile stalker to cut off reincforcements was my point.
3. I guess dropping anything other than templar is useless.
4. How about trying something other than immortals to hold it off? Like Pheonix or Zealot Charge?
You want to know what the main problem with. 1-1-1 allin is?
It's too versatile of a build. Let's say MC plays Puma 10 times and Puma is told "every game go 1-1-1" and MC gets told "Puma is going 1-1-1 every game"
Even in this scenario MC would still lose a few games. There is no direct blind counter, build order win against 1-1-1. So please stop with all this talk of innovation. 1-1-1 is too good against every current Protoss build order.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
I will agree that late game, warp prism is more viable than early/mid game and its possible. However, due to the fact that its basically made of glass and 2 marines could kill it in 5 seconds as well as queens killing it quickly makes it less cost efficient, especially if there are templar inside it.
JYP did show a good use of the warp prism against dongraegu, however its not like he could have done that consistently each game. A single spore would be enough to kill the warp prism quickly, basically abandoning the templar.
You also speak of how the warp prism is faster than workers, so basically you're saying to storm 2 times inside the mineral line, load them up again and then storm another time or 2 to kill the workers? Ya...3-4 storms is totally worth it compared to 8 marines right? This also means that you have less storms with your main army which if it is engaging their army are pretty necessary.
Also for PvZ drops, like others have said if they even see any type of DT tech, they drop a spine or 2 as well as a spore, both of which would defend from a zealot drop and the warp prism itself. The auto-targetting onto the queen also would affect it compared to marine drops where the range allows for them to just attack the workers. Another thing about HT drops against Z are that by the time we tech that high, they would have enough drones and econ to re-saturate immediately and that isn't the problem with PvZ, its pressuring early on to stop the quick droning, not killing the drones later on in the game when the Zerg has a massive economy.
Also what others have said is that the cost effectiveness of the drops aren't the same as Terran drops or Zerg drops, where you can damage both tech and the econ due to high attack speed and movement speed. Terran drops with marines can also just auto unload, not paying attention to the drop while microing a battle and do a good amount of damage even if its lost for what it cost whereas a Protoss drop of HT would require us to move our attention away from the battle front to cast storms and load up again to not lose the drop when Protoss micro is already so necessary and important.
I'm not necessarily saying that we as a race can't use warp prisms at all, but its just completely different from the type of harassment that is available to the other races. People have definitely tried to use warp prisms, even moreso now, however like many of the other Protoss users have said they are definitely not as cost efficient as the drops of other races as well as making them less viable.
People will still try to use them, however the degree of success is generally much lower than drops from Terran and bane drops which can occur across multiple bases at the same time to divide attention, shift queuing the drops onto the mineral line.
1. Abuse Chronoboost. The great Korean Terrans Mule every 50 energy, and Zerg spit every 25. Why shouldn't Protoss do it, even on 3 bases. Zerg and Terran do it on 3 bases.
2. Abuse Warp Gate "Map Hacks." Actively place pylons in strategic places around the map. Imagine a pylon placed behind the 1-1-1 Contain which allowed you to cut off reinforcements and then crush it by attacking from two sides?
3. React to the opponents aggression. Is he constantly dropping and poking at my army? Ok I'll do the same with pylons/Warp Prisms OR Is he passively macroing? Ok, I build to my Death-ball while expanding.
4. Figure out the 1-1-1 Timing. Be prepared.
5. Go back to old school 3 Gate 1 Robo Busts to mix it up and punish greedy low rax Bio expands.
All these are theoretical and only involve cleaning up or refining your gameplay.
1. top protoss players use chronoboost to the full potential. lol
2. protoss doesnt have zerglings. gateway units are slow and weak in low numbers, and therefor suck at taking out terran reinforcements. just because something works out for one race doesnt mean every race can do it. different units, different strategies.
3. protoss units are terrible for drop purpose. you can compare it to terran medievac drops
4. people know the timing very well. people are prepared. people tried every possible build and unit composition but everything dies to the tank banshee raven marine combo. if you are smart, you'd figure out why.
5. Terran learned how to prepare and deal with it.
i find it funny that you think that the protoss players who play this game 8-10 hours a day didnt try this stuff already. people have experimented with the warp prism for months but came to the conclusion that its just not effective in most situations because protoss dont have good harass units.
2. Stalkers might not be lings, but they can still slow the trickle of marines, tanks and bashees to support the 1-1-1. Or atleast force the terran to wait for a full cycle to reinforce.
3. Who said they had to be as good as medivacs? What you want a warp prism to do heal shields? 4 Zealots are far scarier than 8 lings when droped. They still force Zerg to make/have units and Terran to respond.
4. If everything dies to Marine, Tank and Bashee, why isn't that Terrans Core unit comp? Clearly Bio > Marine, Tank, Banshee. Its just Tanks and Banshees get around Force Field early game. Make less sentries and Tech to Immortal in the 9 minutes before the 1-1-1 hits.
The 1-1-1 and marine, tank, banshee is apparently God. I feel it just crushes the protoss with 6 sentries, 2 stalkers and 1 zealot who laughs at Bio pressure with Force Fields/Gaurdian Shield.
Blink Stalkers are a pretty good mid-game army vs Zerg. Archon/Zealot/Templar against Terran.
Note: I do feel Ghosts should go back to 150/150.
2. tanks outrange stalkers and outdps stalkers, banshees RAPE stalkers. If it was pure marine it'd be fairly easy to deal with with pure stalker, but unfortunately, if you get more than 4 stalkers or so, you'll just die because stalkers melt.
3. Without charge a zealot drop will kill exactly zero workers. With charge you might kill 2-3. 8 lings will still kill more workers more consistently than 4 zealots.
4. You don't play protoss, because people do make immortals. In fact, they make whatever the hell they can because even cutting workers a minute in advance for units they don't hold.
2. Where does it say make pure stalker? Using the mobile stalker to cut off reincforcements was my point.
3. I guess dropping anything other than templar is useless.
4. How about trying something other than immortals to hold it off? Like Pheonix or Zealot Charge?
Using a few lings to cut off reinforcements is great. Using stalkers to do it is idiotic because stalkers cost 125/50 whereas 1 ling costs 25 minerals. If you're investing in stalkers, you need serious return for them given their cost, which is why if you look at all the most successful responses to the 1-1-1 build the recommendation is to build as few stalkers as possible depending on how man banshees are around.
On August 12 2011 14:17 CellTech wrote: You want to know what the main problem with. 1-1-1 allin is?
It's too versatile of a build. Let's say MC plays Puma 10 times and Puma is told "every game go 1-1-1" and MC gets told "Puma is going 1-1-1 every game"
Even in this scenario MC would still lose a few games. There is no direct blind counter, build order win against 1-1-1. So please stop with all this talk of innovation. 1-1-1 is too good against every current Protoss build order.
That's why it's a good build? Anything usable shouldn't have a "counter", all solid play should have the chance to work against other solid play given the better player wins.
On August 12 2011 14:20 kenkaze291 wrote: JYP did show a good use of the warp prism against dongraegu, however its not like he could have done that consistently each game. A single spore would be enough to kill the warp prism quickly, basically abandoning the templar.
Storm drops are supposed to be a suicide mission, in a sense. More often then not in BW you'd lose the shuttle, and that's why you'd storm drop rather than reaver drop. Besides, you know what percent of banelings zerg can recover from a drop? I'll give you 3 guesses...
Whitera tries WP. It;s hilarious. They usually get killed before dropping expensive cargo. Not to mention most things protoss can afford to drop are not worth dropping. Also protoss has DTs and warp in which are far more effective hence they are used. I find it funny so many poster think these pros who practice 12 hours a day are so clueless as opposed to them.
On August 12 2011 14:20 kenkaze291 wrote: JYP did show a good use of the warp prism against dongraegu, however its not like he could have done that consistently each game. A single spore would be enough to kill the warp prism quickly, basically abandoning the templar.
Storm drops are supposed to be a suicide mission, in a sense. More often then not in BW you'd lose the shuttle, and that's why you'd storm drop rather than reaver drop. Besides, you know what percent of banelings zerg can recover from a drop? I'll give you 3 guesses...
I'd highly disagree that the cost of 4 banelings is equal to the cost of 3 templar...also he was talking about using the speed of the warp prism to micro, meaning he meant that they should be able to survive.
On August 12 2011 14:31 kenkaze291 wrote: I'd highly disagree that the cost of 4 banelings is equal to the cost of 3 templar
Okay, how about this: races are different for a reason, if you don't like it then switch.
I'd still disagree agree with the notion that protoss have tried everything. Remember around GSL season one? Zergs basically sounded like this: "IMBA IMBA terran mech! Will the mighty gods please save us!?!?!?... oh... I guess mutas are pretty good" Back then thors looked like the most broken thing in the world, no one would have listened to you if you told them that mutalisks were the solution to a unit that clearly was made to counter them. Turns out that a strategy game has more depth, you can't theory craft your way out of a pit.
On August 12 2011 14:31 kenkaze291 wrote: I'd highly disagree that the cost of 4 banelings is equal to the cost of 3 templar
Okay, how about this: races are different for a reason, if you don't like it then switch.
I'd still disagree agree with the notion that protoss have tried everything. Remember around GSL season one? Zergs basically sounded like this: "IMBA IMBA terran mech! Will the mighty gods please save us!?!?!?... oh... I guess mutas are pretty good" Back then thors looked like the most broken thing in the world, no one would have listened to you if you told them that mutalisks were the solution to a unit that clearly was made to counter them. Turns out that a strategy game has more depth, you can't theory craft your way out of a pit.
What u got wrong was magic box was not discovered 1 thor can litterally kill 7-8 mutas. So thors do hard counter mass mutas but now days that is no longer the case.
On August 12 2011 14:31 kenkaze291 wrote: I'd highly disagree that the cost of 4 banelings is equal to the cost of 3 templar
Okay, how about this: races are different for a reason, if you don't like it then switch.
I'd still disagree agree with the notion that protoss have tried everything. Remember around GSL season one? Zergs basically sounded like this: "IMBA IMBA terran mech! Will the mighty gods please save us!?!?!?... oh... I guess mutas are pretty good" Back then thors looked like the most broken thing in the world, no one would have listened to you if you told them that mutalisks were the solution to a unit that clearly was made to counter them. Turns out that a strategy game has more depth, you can't theory craft your way out of a pit.
Except that was almost a year ago, and the metagame has been evolved a lot more since then. However, I agree that there's still room for innovation - it's just that your example involving the state of the metagame over a year ago irked me due to the sheer difference in time since then.
I also have trouble taking you seriously when you actually used "You don't recover banelings from a drop" as an argument for why a different drop is supposed to be a suicide mission. Seriously? Banelings are the only suicide unit in the game. You are using a unit that is by nature supposed to be a suicide unit as an argument for it being okay for non-Baneling units to also be used suicidally in drops. That makes my head hurt.
On August 12 2011 14:25 tdt wrote: Whitera tries WP. It;s hilarious. They usually get killed before dropping expensive cargo. Not to mention most things protoss can afford to drop are not worth dropping. Also protoss has DTs and warp in which are far more effective hence they are used. I find it funny so many poster think these pros who practice 12 hours a day are so clueless as opposed to them.
Whitera mostly use WP in some sort of gimmicky all in builds. I have yet to see him actually use it strategically.
Just because pros don't use it, doesn't mean the unit is not viable. It just means it has yet to be proficiently used or practiced. Pros don't use hellions like their life depends on it too just a month or so ago, and hellions were thought as mediocre and used solely for early games, and we see this notion has drastically changed. Same can be said for ravens.
Alot of times protoss loses big battle because their high templar gets EMPed, we've seen it or been there. Could you not see the value of protecting your HT from EMP and capable of landing valuable and precise storm due to the fast speed of those warp prism??
When not in decisive battles. 2 consecutive storms on a mineral line will kill everything if the opponents don't pull away the workers the very second storm lands. Do you think every player is perfect and can react that quickly? Even if they do, the worker will escape with about 5% hp and a second storm will finish the escaping workers assuming you can micro your warp prism effectively.
Also alot of people complains about losing their warp prism dying to marines or turrents. If you have the speed upgrade, which is only 100/100, then very unlikely your prism will die unless you mess up your micro
I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units.
KA is not the reason for protoss lossing
I don't think KA should be re-added. I'm masters toss, and from my point of view, toss has *insane* staying power in the late game. You can lose huge battles and lose an expansion and still come back because of how toss macro works and the fact that 3/3 affects toss units so much. The problem is making it past the 13 minute mark without being at a 40+ supply defecit with one fewer mining base than your opponent.
On August 12 2011 15:33 freetgy wrote: imho voidrays need a buff, they suck hard and are no where a real threat anymore their dps compared to the cost is just terrible
I don't know, void ray expand is pretty weak now that zergs are pretty much blind countering it, but the 1 base vr allin is still quite strong against many terran openings and buffing them might have implications.
I feel protoss is fine vs zerg, and everyone is pretty okay with that, with the better player typically coming out on top. But I also feel PvT is ridiculously Terran favored, with the 1-1-1, and similar things, it's become really...strange to say the least. The protoss have switched from safe builds to more macro oriented builds, and they have to go to safer builds like 3-gate expand in order to be totally safe vs the 1-1-1, but then Terran can just do a macro build. So, overall, it's a strange matchupt hat I find to be Terran favored.
I don't think protoss need KA back tbh. HTs in PvZ is not very helpful. In PvT most of the game Protoss can't survive past 10 mins mark. So what is the point of KA anywaylol. Protoss is doing fine with Colossus, Archons, Zealots, stalkers and sentries and a few HTs in late game.
Also, the only reason the 1-1-1 hasnt been around for a while isn't because Protoss figured it out. People just saw Rain 1 basing and associated it with cheese, and then you looked at MVP and Jinro playing macro style and decimating their opponents. Obviously the general player base will mimic what the pros are doing and what they are successful with.
My "theorycraft" tells me that a super early double gas into chargelot/HT(solely for feedback) into archons works wonder against 1-1-1. However, put into practice I haven't done as well :/
It's like I'm allin-ing to Defend by blind countering. And if they early expo'd I usually fell behind in macro at this point, or if their banshees have cloak I'm also toast because I don't have much money to spare for detection.
On August 12 2011 14:25 tdt wrote: Whitera tries WP. It;s hilarious. They usually get killed before dropping expensive cargo. Not to mention most things protoss can afford to drop are not worth dropping. Also protoss has DTs and warp in which are far more effective hence they are used. I find it funny so many poster think these pros who practice 12 hours a day are so clueless as opposed to them.
Whitera mostly use WP in some sort of gimmicky all in builds. I have yet to see him actually use it strategically.
Just because pros don't use it, doesn't mean the unit is not viable. It just means it has yet to be proficiently used or practiced. Pros don't use hellions like their life depends on it too just a month or so ago, and hellions were thought as mediocre and used solely for early games, and we see this notion has drastically changed. Same can be said for ravens.
Alot of times protoss loses big battle because their high templar gets EMPed, we've seen it or been there. Could you not see the value of protecting your HT from EMP and capable of landing valuable and precise storm due to the fast speed of those warp prism??
When not in decisive battles. 2 consecutive storms on a mineral line will kill everything if the opponents don't pull away the workers the very second storm lands. Do you think every player is perfect and can react that quickly? Even if they do, the worker will escape with about 5% hp and a second storm will finish the escaping workers assuming you can micro your warp prism effectively.
Also alot of people complains about losing their warp prism dying to marines or turrents. If you have the speed upgrade, which is only 100/100, then very unlikely your prism will die unless you mess up your micro
Wow are you a troll? Have you even seen White-ra's games at MLG?
You obviously haven't played protoss if you really think that way about warp prism "harass" with HTs
On August 12 2011 14:20 kenkaze291 wrote: JYP did show a good use of the warp prism against dongraegu, however its not like he could have done that consistently each game. A single spore would be enough to kill the warp prism quickly, basically abandoning the templar.
Storm drops are supposed to be a suicide mission, in a sense. More often then not in BW you'd lose the shuttle, and that's why you'd storm drop rather than reaver drop. Besides, you know what percent of banelings zerg can recover from a drop? I'll give you 3 guesses...
4 Banelings - 100 gas 2 templar? - 300 gas 4 templar - 600 gas
Which is more important to the main force in the game?
Yeah. Also templar act just like banelings... you run them into a clump of marines...
If this is how you think we think there's a reason why your vP winrates aren't as high as they should be.
The game is still young so there's no need to panic but I think PvT is broken right now. Most terrans do timing semi-allin stuff and have great success with it. The conterpart is that it's almost impossible to win a real macro game against a protoss if he doesn't make any major mistakes. Their late game composition of chargelots, archons, HT, stalkers and collossii is simply too powerful and multi pronged attacks and dropship harass only compensate that to a small extent. See Fenix vs MVPwOn for illustration.
To sum it up, early mid game is too terran favoured and late game is too protoss favored. Right now the metagame in korea favors terrans because their sense of timing is very refined but we could very well see a shift just like we saw in PvZ.
On August 12 2011 14:25 tdt wrote: Wow are you a troll? Have you even seen White-ra's games at MLG?
You obviously haven't played protoss if you really think that way about warp prism "harass" with HTs
I don't follow him, so of course there might be games I missed where he did otherwise.
the games I watch him play he usually don't use it at all or use it in an all in fashion.
As for your second comment, why don't you be more specific and tell me exactly which part I was wrong at or offer your own opinion on how warp prism is used. Then we might have an actual discussion instead of your worthless post
On August 12 2011 16:38 ChApFoU wrote: The game is still young so there's no need to panic but I think PvT is broken right now. Most terrans do timing semi-allin stuff and have great success with it. The conterpart is that it's almost impossible to win a real macro game against a protoss if he doesn't make any major mistakes. Their late game composition of chargelots, archons, HT, stalkers and collossii is simply too powerful and multi pronged attacks and dropship harass only compensate that to a small extent. See Fenix vs MVPwOn for illustration.
To sum it up, early mid game is too terran favoured and late game is too protoss favored. Right now the metagame in korea favors terrans because their sense of timing is very refined but we could very well see a shift just like we saw in PvZ.
The only problem I have with the 1/1/1 allin is that it has ZERO known counters. There are P builds that are decent against it, and all of them are done blindly. It's strong against VR allins because you can get a viking asap along with siege tanks, can survive a WG rush because of the bunker, and you open up the entire tech tree, and if you see protoss hasn't expanded, you can throw down a CC yourself knowing you are in excellent shape for a macro game. It's the equivalent of a late siege expand, except you have 1/1/1, a reactor and 2 techlabs, with the ability to go into anything.
Terran can in fact win a macro game against protoss. I would agree that it's harder for terran in the late game, but I would argue it's about 60-40 assuming T and P hit late game approximately even. Early game right now for terran is 90-10 looking at how GSL is going. One could arguably be called balanced, the other no.
On August 12 2011 16:38 ChApFoU wrote: The game is still young so there's no need to panic but I think PvT is broken right now. Most terrans do timing semi-allin stuff and have great success with it. The conterpart is that it's almost impossible to win a real macro game against a protoss if he doesn't make any major mistakes. Their late game composition of chargelots, archons, HT, stalkers and collossii is simply too powerful and multi pronged attacks and dropship harass only compensate that to a small extent. See Fenix vs MVPwOn for illustration.
To sum it up, early mid game is too terran favoured and late game is too protoss favored. Right now the metagame in korea favors terrans because their sense of timing is very refined but we could very well see a shift just like we saw in PvZ.
The only problem I have with the 1/1/1 allin is that it has ZERO known counters. There are P builds that are decent against it, and all of them are done blindly. It's strong against VR allins because you can get a viking asap along with siege tanks, can survive a WG rush because of the bunker, and you open up the entire tech tree, and if you see protoss hasn't expanded, you can throw down a CC yourself knowing you are in excellent shape for a macro game. It's the equivalent of a late siege expand, except you have 1/1/1, a reactor and 2 techlabs, with the ability to go into anything.
Terran can in fact win a macro game against protoss. I would agree that it's harder for terran in the late game, but I would argue it's about 60-40 assuming T and P hit late game approximately even. Early game right now for terran is 90-10 looking at how GSL is going. One could arguably be called balanced, the other no.
Ya but in the case your stating where toss has a 10% chance to beat 1-1-1 from a very very small pool of play maybe 10 games if your lucky I think its more like 5-8 while you can take hundreds of macro games to get any type of stats. Just because something is new and people are winning with it does not mean you need to nerf it. How long have these allins been popularized? about a week give people time to find the best way to deal with it instead of crying IMBA IMBA WORLD and NERF NERF NERF BLIZZ PLZ! It is not the correct way to balance a game.
On August 12 2011 16:38 ChApFoU wrote: The game is still young so there's no need to panic but I think PvT is broken right now. Most terrans do timing semi-allin stuff and have great success with it. The conterpart is that it's almost impossible to win a real macro game against a protoss if he doesn't make any major mistakes. Their late game composition of chargelots, archons, HT, stalkers and collossii is simply too powerful and multi pronged attacks and dropship harass only compensate that to a small extent. See Fenix vs MVPwOn for illustration.
To sum it up, early mid game is too terran favoured and late game is too protoss favored. Right now the metagame in korea favors terrans because their sense of timing is very refined but we could very well see a shift just like we saw in PvZ.
The only problem I have with the 1/1/1 allin is that it has ZERO known counters. There are P builds that are decent against it, and all of them are done blindly. It's strong against VR allins because you can get a viking asap along with siege tanks, can survive a WG rush because of the bunker, and you open up the entire tech tree, and if you see protoss hasn't expanded, you can throw down a CC yourself knowing you are in excellent shape for a macro game. It's the equivalent of a late siege expand, except you have 1/1/1, a reactor and 2 techlabs, with the ability to go into anything.
Terran can in fact win a macro game against protoss. I would agree that it's harder for terran in the late game, but I would argue it's about 60-40 assuming T and P hit late game approximately even. Early game right now for terran is 90-10 looking at how GSL is going. One could arguably be called balanced, the other no.
Ya but in the case your stating where toss has a 10% chance to beat 1-1-1 from a very very small pool of play maybe 10 games if your lucky I think its more like 5-8 while you can take hundreds of macro games to get any type of stats. Just because something is new and people are winning with it does not mean you need to nerf it. How long have these allins been popularized? about a week give people time to find the best way to deal with it instead of crying IMBA IMBA WORLD and NERF NERF NERF BLIZZ PLZ! It is not the correct way to balance a game.
You along with a whole bunch of other people seem to think that this build and it's variations only started this GSL season. This build has been around since beta, and even unrefined versions were hard to deal with.
Im honestly so sick of playing zerg. Feel like after the warpgate nerf, there is no way you can put decent presesure on them, cause you cant just run back an forward an pick a little bit on the zerg, cause then you just get smashed by lings.
And in no time they have 4 exp. Have no problem with terran, smash most terran i meet but zerg make my ranking fall DOWN.
When you go 4 gate they defend cause of the fast units they can get, when you go macro game they just out produce you.
If you stay passive you lose if you are agressive you lose, how do you win?
On August 12 2011 16:38 ChApFoU wrote: The game is still young so there's no need to panic but I think PvT is broken right now. Most terrans do timing semi-allin stuff and have great success with it. The conterpart is that it's almost impossible to win a real macro game against a protoss if he doesn't make any major mistakes. Their late game composition of chargelots, archons, HT, stalkers and collossii is simply too powerful and multi pronged attacks and dropship harass only compensate that to a small extent. See Fenix vs MVPwOn for illustration.
To sum it up, early mid game is too terran favoured and late game is too protoss favored. Right now the metagame in korea favors terrans because their sense of timing is very refined but we could very well see a shift just like we saw in PvZ.
The only problem I have with the 1/1/1 allin is that it has ZERO known counters. There are P builds that are decent against it, and all of them are done blindly. It's strong against VR allins because you can get a viking asap along with siege tanks, can survive a WG rush because of the bunker, and you open up the entire tech tree, and if you see protoss hasn't expanded, you can throw down a CC yourself knowing you are in excellent shape for a macro game. It's the equivalent of a late siege expand, except you have 1/1/1, a reactor and 2 techlabs, with the ability to go into anything.
Terran can in fact win a macro game against protoss. I would agree that it's harder for terran in the late game, but I would argue it's about 60-40 assuming T and P hit late game approximately even. Early game right now for terran is 90-10 looking at how GSL is going. One could arguably be called balanced, the other no.
Ya but in the case your stating where toss has a 10% chance to beat 1-1-1 from a very very small pool of play maybe 10 games if your lucky I think its more like 5-8 while you can take hundreds of macro games to get any type of stats. Just because something is new and people are winning with it does not mean you need to nerf it. How long have these allins been popularized? about a week give people time to find the best way to deal with it instead of crying IMBA IMBA WORLD and NERF NERF NERF BLIZZ PLZ! It is not the correct way to balance a game.
This build has been around forever, and it was hard to hold then, and even harder to hold now after all the protoss nerfs. The only difference now is that we're seeing more refined versions of the build.
On August 12 2011 17:15 Dusen wrote: Im honestly so sick of playing zerg. Feel like after the warpgate nerf, there is no way you can put decent presesure on them, cause you cant just run back an forward an pick a little bit on the zerg, cause then you just get smashed by lings.
And in no time they have 4 exp. Have no problem with terran, smash most terran i meet but zerg make my ranking fall DOWN.
When you go 4 gate they defend cause of the fast units they can get, when you go macro game they just out produce you.
If you stay passive you lose if you are agressive you lose, how do you win?
..is this a troll? Zergs were saying the exact same thing about Protoss when every zerg was losing to the late game Collossus/Voidray ball or to 4 gates or to 6 gates or to whatever.
Regarding the 1-1-1 build. This is what the coach of SlayerS (Cella) have to say about it. You know the team with the most top Terran players in the world:
I'm not talking about imbalance but when the coach of the team with the best Terran players in the world says that this push is really bloody damn hard I do believe him.
The reason I feel protoss are loosing is because they're constantly trying to do gateway timings...6 gates, every game..Even in pro games. On ladder I get it every game, and I hold it every game, it's jsut become too predictable... I see people like HongUn, doing a differant all-in, every game, I don't see any protoss just playing the standard macro game right now.
Lately I feel like Protoss is a gamble race. Especially players like MC, HongUn or Inca, who employ very risky strategies and by far the most succesful protoss players in GSL.
On August 12 2011 17:15 Dusen wrote: Im honestly so sick of playing zerg. Feel like after the warpgate nerf, there is no way you can put decent presesure on them, cause you cant just run back an forward an pick a little bit on the zerg, cause then you just get smashed by lings.
And in no time they have 4 exp. Have no problem with terran, smash most terran i meet but zerg make my ranking fall DOWN.
When you go 4 gate they defend cause of the fast units they can get, when you go macro game they just out produce you.
If you stay passive you lose if you are agressive you lose, how do you win?
..is this a troll? Zergs were saying the exact same thing about Protoss when every zerg was losing to the late game Collossus/Voidray ball or to 4 gates or to 6 gates or to whatever.
No.
Yeah the difference is that toss got nerft and zerg got buffed. Protoss have no harrash units, you don't have to commit a ton of ressources to. The DT and the phoenix can both be countert by the evo champer.
Thats one building that cost 75 minerals 1 crawler in eatch base and thats 225 minerlas thats not even the cost for 1 DT :S
We got nothing else, so we have to sit back an build up, but because of the good macro zerg have, they can just get so far ahead cause they ain't getting attackt or anything.
On August 12 2011 17:48 TheSilverfox wrote: Regarding the 1-1-1 build. This is what the coach of SlayerS (Cella) have to say about it. You know the team with the most top Terran players in the world:
I'm not talking about imbalance but when the coach of the team with the best Terran players in the world says that this push is really bloody damn hard I do believe him.
yeh and even with that post and the proof of the coach of Slayers posting that you will still have Terran players saying he doesnt know what hes talking about, learn to play, nothign wrong with 111 and stop whining lol
On August 12 2011 17:15 Dusen wrote: Im honestly so sick of playing zerg. Feel like after the warpgate nerf, there is no way you can put decent presesure on them, cause you cant just run back an forward an pick a little bit on the zerg, cause then you just get smashed by lings.
And in no time they have 4 exp. Have no problem with terran, smash most terran i meet but zerg make my ranking fall DOWN.
When you go 4 gate they defend cause of the fast units they can get, when you go macro game they just out produce you.
If you stay passive you lose if you are agressive you lose, how do you win?
..is this a troll? Zergs were saying the exact same thing about Protoss when every zerg was losing to the late game Collossus/Voidray ball or to 4 gates or to 6 gates or to whatever.
4 gate was nerfed, Infestor was buffed primarily to due with the ball you were discussing...
The difference is, with the threat of a 4gate gone outside of PvP, other races exploit the passivity and general lack of scouting from toss until robo or halluc
On August 11 2011 17:07 Let it Raine wrote: besides terran all ins, which are ridiculously strong in every matchup
protoss is fine
jyp messed up a ton in those games and i couldnt believe drg managed to lose
that said jyp had a few cool ideas, with the dts in main and hts at natural being one of them
Protoss can hardly beat Zerg at high levels anymore and it is being mirrored in ladder at lower levels - I dropped out of masters this week after losing pretty much all my games vs zerg.
I can beat masters terrans/toss but struggle vs even diamond zergs...
... same thing on the casual level....
I used to be high diamond and dropped to plat, because I couldn't ever figure out a way to safely get to midgame/lategame on even terms vs Zerg. I pretty much watched only PvZ pro matches for a while and got the feeling that as P you have to somehow surprise or all-in Z, or hope he takes a big risk, because straight up you will just lose, even with better micro. It has come to the point where I usually gift ladder games to z instantly, because I dont enjoy playing this matchup anymore.
Now In plat, a lot of T and P are a walkover for me, so I basically almost never get the interesting late game battles I had before. The upside is that plat terrans usually cannot do a proper marine banshee tank all-in. Its such BS that you can scout early, have the correct read on what your opponent will do and still get completely smashed everytime.
I don't care about any P buffs, because its clear that interracial balance is a pretty subjective thing overall , but personally I'd appreciate the addition of a mirror matchup ladder for casuals like me. PvP is the matchup I've been (exclusively) enjoying a lot since the WG nerf and I'd really appreciate not having to waste any more time with the unbalanced parts of the game to find opponents of similar skill..
On August 12 2011 17:15 Dusen wrote: Im honestly so sick of playing zerg. Feel like after the warpgate nerf, there is no way you can put decent presesure on them, cause you cant just run back an forward an pick a little bit on the zerg, cause then you just get smashed by lings.
And in no time they have 4 exp. Have no problem with terran, smash most terran i meet but zerg make my ranking fall DOWN.
When you go 4 gate they defend cause of the fast units they can get, when you go macro game they just out produce you.
If you stay passive you lose if you are agressive you lose, how do you win?
..is this a troll? Zergs were saying the exact same thing about Protoss when every zerg was losing to the late game Collossus/Voidray ball or to 4 gates or to 6 gates or to whatever.
4 gate was nerfed, Infestor was buffed primarily to due with the ball you were discussing...
Difference is Infestors were already strong before the buff while now 4gate is crap against both terran and zerg. And ofc Infestor/Broodlord is a much better ball than anything else in the game anyway.
On August 12 2011 17:48 TheSilverfox wrote: Regarding the 1-1-1 build. This is what the coach of SlayerS (Cella) have to say about it. You know the team with the most top Terran players in the world:
I'm not talking about imbalance but when the coach of the team with the best Terran players in the world says that this push is really bloody damn hard I do believe him.
Well I suppose this is the proof that will quiet the lower level terrans that are telling us "we're doing it wrong"
When the coach of the most terran heavy team puts a statement out like that, it really makes me lose hope. As for IMMVP, whether it's serious or not, coming from arguably the world's best terran, is pretty disheartening.
On August 12 2011 17:50 enecateReAP wrote: The reason I feel protoss are loosing is because they're constantly trying to do gateway timings...6 gates, every game..Even in pro games. On ladder I get it every game, and I hold it every game, it's jsut become too predictable... I see people like HongUn, doing a differant all-in, every game, I don't see any protoss just playing the standard macro game right now.
6 gates and 7 gates ARE BAD x.X;
You clearly didn't watch the GSL, then. Neither MC nor Alicia tried Gateway timing pushes, and both got knocked out early.
If anything, people are calling out to MC to go for Gateway pushes again, as that is pretty much all that has a good chance of beating 1-1-1.
Unless a new unit is added ( not gonna happen ) or some buffs/nerfs are done, situation wont evolve I believe. Terrans and Zergs were not using the whole potential of their race by leaving some units aside ( talking abt Ghosts,Mechs and Infestors ) in addition to some new strats/units compositions rearrangement.
Protoss players already use all the units they can ( no point in talking abt Carriers/Mothership ) and there is very little room for improvement other than units compositions and new BOs.
Well we'll see what will happen in the next few months
I hope the top protoss find a way to overcome this downfall. But i think they will need some help from blizzard
The 1-1-1 is so boring to see and in every pro matchup it is an easy BO win for the terran. With offcourse the exception of a poorly excecuted 1-1-1 build. I am not sure if there is an way to punish this allin because most builds will just scout it to late. It is possible to define a build specific to couter this(quick robo?). But this will cause protoss to be locked in to one BO with one techpath.
For zerg part is offcourse somewat due to the infestor change(it counters so much, air and ground, cloacked etc). But also zerg just are getting better. They learned how to stop the timing pushes and are using this to their advantage
Overall i think the biggest problem of protoss is not that other races are imbalanced. The problem is more that protoss is (to?) delicate. If you miss a force field in early stages you die, if you don't have detection and a cloack banshee arrives you die, if you lose you collosies you die, if you lose your HT's you die etc. If you play perfect you maybe win. But how to 'fix' this i have no idea. Overall i think they still need to buff the warprism a bit or give it an upgrade in the form of health/shields. It would be nice to see more warpprism play,
I've watched pro BW for years, where P are also the historical weak race but people cite the 'lack of P heroes' as the problem rather than balance. It's funny to see the same line of argument in SC2. It's a statistical implausibility that all the players of a race happen to be worse than their counterparts. Apply that argument to years of results and it's simply absurd.
The only thing that would make it plausible is if there were flaws in the race that caused good players to avoid it, either way the problem lies with game design.
Wow asd tried to do the 1-1-1 to puzzle in the GSTL.. and he made phoenixes? I don't know if this is a breakthrough because asd lost 3 banshees for free and then puzzle still only just held it with probes and what not. Puzzle had expanded though.
It's ridiculous how much the 1-1-1 is being used in the GSL..
On August 12 2011 17:48 TheSilverfox wrote: Regarding the 1-1-1 build. This is what the coach of SlayerS (Cella) have to say about it. You know the team with the most top Terran players in the world:
I'm not talking about imbalance but when the coach of the team with the best Terran players in the world says that this push is really bloody damn hard I do believe him.
Uh huh, that's why SlayerS got 3-killed by TWO protosses (SangHo and HongUn). I love Cella but people need to stop taking everything he says so seriously. Last time he jokingly tweeted he was no longer coach and there was an entire thread popping out blaming and slandering SlayerS_Jessica. That was bad.
And Puzzle just held a variation of 1-1-1 a few minutes ago.
On August 12 2011 20:05 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Wow asd tried to do the 1-1-1 to puzzle in the GSTL.. and he made phoenixes? I don't know if this is a breakthrough because asd lost 3 banshees for free and then puzzle still only just held it with probes and what not. Puzzle had expanded though.
It's ridiculous how much the 1-1-1 is being used in the GSL..
If asd wouldn't have harassed with his banshees and lose them to phx, asd would have crushed puzzle...Harassment isnt needed in a 111 push, doing it is taking the risk to lose ur banshees...
Basically asd made a huge mistake, that why puzzle held...
But yeah i always thought that stargate tech is the best choice against 111...MAYBE Void ray (or phx if no raven) plus chargelots could hold this...It will take practice tho
I've read this thread from the first post to the last since it was created and come to the following conclusion:
What the fuck are we doing here? Do we really need to convince Gold Terrans that 1-1-1 is too strong? Do we need to explain to an off-racing Diamond Terran why Carriers and Warp Prisms are not the solution? Do we change anything by stating facts, getting trolled and start raging?
On August 12 2011 17:48 TheSilverfox wrote: Regarding the 1-1-1 build. This is what the coach of SlayerS (Cella) have to say about it. You know the team with the most top Terran players in the world:
I'm not talking about imbalance but when the coach of the team with the best Terran players in the world says that this push is really bloody damn hard I do believe him.
Uh huh, that's why SlayerS got 3-killed by TWO protosses (SangHo and HongUn). I love Cella but people need to stop taking everything he says so seriously. Last time he jokingly tweeted he was no longer coach and there was an entire thread popping out blaming and slandering SlayerS_Jessica. That was bad.
And Puzzle just held a variation of 1-1-1 a few minutes ago.
It's entirely map dependent. On some maps it's the best build if the protoss expands at all. There's no way to safely expand against it without just dying convincingly. It forces you to stay on one base for a long time. Then if they just make a command center and keep on massing up, they win.
I'm not saying it's unstoppable, but it's insanely good. Also, if you are referencing the recent game puzzle just won - he got 3 free banshees, a free tank, and he bought 1 and a half minutes of time. He also immediately stopped probe production, had more supply, AND had to use probes. This doesn't happen 90 percent of the time in pro games when this build is used.
IMO, it's simply the players. Alicia and MC are meant to be the great Protoss hope, but they are slumping. I think Puzzle doesn't get as much credit as he deserves, he is a very good Protoss. IIRC there are the same amount of Protoss and Zerg in GSL Code S, both with 8. I just think that the Zergs are better than their Protoss opponents.
I also think that you will see a contrast if you look at the foreigner scene. Most of the best foreign players are Protoss (Naniwa, Huk, Socke, SaSe, White-Ra Kiwikaki and with ToD coming up). Seems to me it is just a case of the Korean Protoss not being as 'figured out' as the other races.
On August 12 2011 20:20 MrSweetNess wrote: IMO, it's simply the players. Alicia and MC are meant to be the great Protoss hope, but they are slumping. I think Puzzle doesn't get as much credit as he deserves, he is a very good Protoss. IIRC there are the same amount of Protoss and Zerg in GSL Code S, both with 8. I just think that the Zergs are better than their Protoss opponents.
I also think that you will see a contrast if you look at the foreigner scene. Most of the best foreign players are Protoss (Naniwa, Huk, Socke, SaSe, White-Ra Kiwikaki and with ToD coming up). Seems to me it is just a case of the Korean Protoss not being as 'figured out' as the other races.
I respect your opinion, and I don't know if I agree or not honestly. I think the Korean zergs are fantastic players, but I think MC and Alicia are also fantastic players. The reason you see the difference in foreigners is because the foreign scene doesn't have as many good zergs. This is not really debatable. I think MC and Alicia are both as good as any zerg on the planet, maybe other than Nestea. They are losing to terrans mostly and not zergs.
The argument that the protoss top level players aren't as good just doesn't really hold ground in my opinion. I don't know if there is an imbalance, but right now protoss is definitely weak in non-mirror matchups. I think the protoss players will eventually figure out how to deal with some of the problems in their play, just as zerg players did (even though they also got a lot of help with buffs). I think there might be a buff or some sort of change to encourage more experimentation with a variety of units, however - in case losing everything isn't motivation enough lol.
I just wish this logic applied to back when zergs complained about everything (even though I guess they still do).
I feel the accesibility of Templars compared to Infestors and Ghosts could be a problem, and is also one of the reasons P's seem to have problems holding off fast mass marine-like attacks. Templars would be great against the marines and banshees, but they just take very long to get, and don't come with their signature damage spells like Infestors and Ghosts (to a different degree since EMP is a bit different). A lot of the trouble in P holding off T's all-in's seem to be not having any AoE effect available early on.
well tbh MC is the only korean protoss player who i see as reliable and great in all match-ups. however when you take the risk of picking mvp into your group..
but meh, code A last season was a pvp final. last time people were saying protoss suck etc strategies shifted, naniwa won MLG and suddenly it seemed like protoss dominance.
people draw conclusions from too little. with the element of random and strategic shifts, most of the balance calls people make are pretty baseless.
JYP's play vs DRG, I liked what I saw and I hope to see more from him
But I think protoss needs to figure out some things. Especially now when the game is evolving around counter attacks and harassment and Toss needs to figure out how they can harass. + Show Spoiler +
Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work.
I think that Protoss is currently just going back to what it always was, a race with thinnest margins for error. We have very strong but also very expensive units, so you can NEVER lose a fight (of course unless you happen to be very far ahead economically). We live or die by our force fields, cannot 1a even with our t1 units (stupid zealots, stay in front!) and almost always need aoe to survive mid-game. I always remember a quote from Idra back in the beta/early release, when he thought pvz was balanced (hard to imagine him saying that today ). Paraphrasing, "Protoss is easy to pick up, but the hardest race to master." If you can't handle being fragile and depending on smallest things for the whole game, you shouldn't play toss.
Now onto matchups:
PvZ. I feel the matchup started to swing in Z favor even before the infestor buff, with the (re)discovery of the power of lings. In the beta, TLO showed the strength of ling/infestor/ultra compositions against both T and P. His dismantling of Whitera with run-bys on desert oasis basically made blizzard change the map. However, for some reason, Idras macro roach/hydra won over the ling strats and dominated Z play for a long time. It was the Spanishiwa Ice Fisher build that put lings and harass back on the map, foreshadowing a similar switch in the metagame in Korea as well.
Now, I reference Spanishiwa because I think that the discussion of how to defeat his build is very informative of how to play in the current PvZ metagame. The key is not to think of how to 'pressure' the zerg early, but how to take your third and fourth bases safely and stay on par economically through the midgame. This means playing defensively for a much longer time than a protoss is used to. For me, I base my PvZ on Huks play: expand of 1-3 gates, go up to 6-7 gates and start sharking around a bit, add blink and robo for immortals and take a third, then tech to HT. With this approach, you have a high unit count early on that you usually use for defending, but can also use to all in if you see the zerg being too greedy. The key is to stay safe until you reach HT + storm tech, which is probably the best unit you can have vs Z. HTs are good vs everything but roach, which you can kill with blink stalker/immortal combo. Using the most popular alternative , the stargate pressure, is a much bigger gamble. If you don't do significant damage with voids, you leave yourself unable to defend any of the many counterattacks that the zerg can throw back at you due to a big lack of basic units. Heck, even if you manage to stop that third base from going up you may still easily die to mass ling drop ala DRG/Morrow. The downside of the defensive mass gateway style is that you set yourself up to win in the late game, as that is when your tech+economy starts giving you an edge. This necessarily means having to learn how to deal with broodlord/infestor compositions and mass bling drops, so no ragequits as soon as you scout a greater spire
PvZ TLDR: I agree with Idras statements from the last inside the game - if toss plays defensively, using mass blink stalkers and HTs fueled by a strong multibase economy, he can beat zerg on even ground.
PvT. The classic way that the matchup is played is very fairly balanced. It may be harder for toss through the midgame as it is easier to do drops than to defend them, but it is a skill issue, not a balance one. The 1-1-1 thing that cropped up again recently is the big problem atm, but also its not a new strat, it is as old as the GSL at least - I think it was Polt who showed it first at GSL OS1. I believe that the reason for its strong resurgence in the last month or so is the delayed scouting that the standard 1gate expand suffers from. In this build, the robo usually comes after 3-4 gates and a nexus with only stalker pokes used for scouting which cannot tell you anything more than how many marines are there. By the time the observer reaches the terran base, the 1-1-1 is pretty much ready to push.
I suggest two options. First, go back to a safer gate robo gate opening. As I write this, ZENEXPuzzle demonstrated that going back to this old favorite gives you enough time after scout to prepare for the 1-1-1 push in any way you want (he went phoenixes). This does make your nexus slower, but we can live with that. Second, hallucination scouting with gate only expands. Instead of building a robo after gates and nexus, just chrono out hallucination right after warpgate and scout with phoenix. Hallucination is cheaper than robo+obs, but more importantly comes out much faster. This works well for me because I rarely use the robo for anything other than observers in pvt and I like to open with a bunch of sentries anyway (the 2gas 1gate FE, MC style). Once you scout with the phoenix, you should still have enough time to add a robo or forge if you see cloak banshee at normal times.
Scouting I think is the issue with 1base 1-1-1 allins. However, I am not sure about non-all in 1-1-1s like the one MVP featured against MC. He did not go for the kill but for a hard contain after a 1rax cc and it looked really scary. This variant is still pretty new so a solution is far from obvious, but after watching that game I thought that 1) MC's contain bust was very bad and 2) there was a lot of room for exploiting mobility i.e. warprisms... We'll have to wait for more information here...
PvT TLDR. 1-1-1 1base allin is an old build that requires a toss to scout early to prepare properly. The current 1gate fe standard pvt build does not produce the observer early enough to scout it properly. One should either go earlier robo (1gate 1robo) or try to scout with hallucination.
TLDR for the post. Recent changes in the metagame remind us that protoss is a fragile race, probably the least forgiving of mistakes of all races. This is nothing new, its just the way the race is designed. Current troubles will, as before, be overcome by practice and adaptation of builds. I think this has already happened in PvZ where toss QQ already seems somewhat outdated. In PvT, 1-1-1 looks very strong but it is defendable with proper preparation, meaning earlier scouting is probably required.
Finally, thank you to anyone who read this way too long post . I am as frustrated with current state of toss as anyone else, so I just felt like consolidating my thoughts in written words
On August 12 2011 20:20 MrSweetNess wrote: IMO, it's simply the players. Alicia and MC are meant to be the great Protoss hope, but they are slumping. I think Puzzle doesn't get as much credit as he deserves, he is a very good Protoss. IIRC there are the same amount of Protoss and Zerg in GSL Code S, both with 8. I just think that the Zergs are better than their Protoss opponents.
I also think that you will see a contrast if you look at the foreigner scene. Most of the best foreign players are Protoss (Naniwa, Huk, Socke, SaSe, White-Ra Kiwikaki and with ToD coming up). Seems to me it is just a case of the Korean Protoss not being as 'figured out' as the other races.
I respect your opinion, and I don't know if I agree or not honestly. I think the Korean zergs are fantastic players, but I think MC and Alicia are also fantastic players. The reason you see the difference in foreigners is because the foreign scene doesn't have as many good zergs. This is not really debatable. I think MC and Alicia are both as good as any zerg on the planet, maybe other than Nestea. They are losing to terrans mostly and not zergs.
The argument that the protoss top level players aren't as good just doesn't really hold ground in my opinion. I don't know if there is an imbalance, but right now protoss is definitely weak in non-mirror matchups. I think the protoss players will eventually figure out how to deal with some of the problems in their play, just as zerg players did (even though they also got a lot of help with buffs). I think there might be a buff or some sort of change to encourage more experimentation with a variety of units, however - in case losing everything isn't motivation enough lol.
I just wish this logic applied to back when zergs complained about everything (even though I guess they still do).
I totally agree that MC and Alicia are as good as (probably even better than) most Zergs, but my main point is the other Protosses around. Like in this GSL where MC had to play Mvp who is a god, and got cheesed out by Noblesse, and Alicia got allined twice and got kicked out. What other Protosses are good enough to match with the rest? I'm not saying there is a complete lack of Protoss talent, I'm just saying that in my opinion, there are only about 4 capable of making it deep into a GSL, and if upsets like MC and Alicia going to the up/downs happen, you get a skewed number of Protoss advancing
If you take into consideration that probably only one of Huk or Killer will get through cause they have Bomber in that group and Puzzle is pretty favoured to get through. So that is 2 through, the others are Hongun, Trickster and Genius, who are good, but not great. Whereas look at Terran. If Mvp and Bomber lose, there is still MMA, Polt, Byun, Top and Nada. Zerg would look very similar to Protoss at the moment if say, NesTea and Losira both unexpectedly fell to up/downs, there is July and CoCa that might be able to go deep, but not a great deal of players there
I guess what I am trying to say (and kind of failing at saying) is that the pool of Protosses isn't deep enough that if the 2 best get allined out of GSL, it looks very bad for Protoss, and hence why he have this thread.
I don't know though, I could be completely wrong, just my opinion
On August 12 2011 16:28 CellTech wrote: Also, the only reason the 1-1-1 hasnt been around for a while isn't because Protoss figured it out. People just saw Rain 1 basing and associated it with cheese, and then you looked at MVP and Jinro playing macro style and decimating their opponents. Obviously the general player base will mimic what the pros are doing and what they are successful with.
My "theorycraft" tells me that a super early double gas into chargelot/HT(solely for feedback) into archons works wonder against 1-1-1. However, put into practice I haven't done as well :/
It's like I'm allin-ing to Defend by blind countering. And if they early expo'd I usually fell behind in macro at this point, or if their banshees have cloak I'm also toast because I don't have much money to spare for detection.
I have been blindly doing this every PvT for the past few months. Its works if the terran is passive or a worse play then yourself..... If everyone starts doing this to hold the 1-1-1 push terrans will revert to getting cloak with their banshee poke and you will die. Whenever I go twilight council I cross my fingers that there is no cloak or your dead since forge comes out late.... The thing about terran allins is they are so versatile with the PDD, banshee, mass marine, tanks and ghost that there is no way to prepare for everything and terran is hard to scout without going robo. One thing unexplored I believe is hallucinate against it. What sucks is with so much gas in sentries is your overall DPS sucks.......
I've found in most PvT if the terran is passive or his harass does little damage that once the game goes 20+ mins the toss in pretty hard to beat. Terran units are not the best late game but there is no doubt that Toss is UP in the early game with its predictable tech paths and how GW units suck without their respective upgrades......
On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote: Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work.
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
Read the damn thread. It's been discussed to death how harassment simply isn't cost effective for Protoss. And no, you are just straight up wrong in saying that the Shuttle was as weak as the Warp Prism.
The thing I don't get is how 4gate was considered too strong, but 1-1-1 isn't. Even if there is a theoretical way to hold 1-1-1, it seems that the build is disproportionately effective for the skill and apm required, which makes it imbalanced.
On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote: Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work.
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
Read the damn thread. It's been discussed to death how harassment simply isn't cost effective for Protoss. And no, you are just straight up wrong in saying that the Shuttle was as weak as the Warp Prism.
I think the warp prism makes up for that by not having to hold onto any units when in transit unless you want to collosus or immortal drop. If you lose it, it's just a warp prism, if it makes it to the base you have the potential of however many warpgates worth of units in your base.
I don't think the problem is the warp prism, toss just doesn't have a unit that can move/attack and just generally deal damage effectively in a harassing role.
On August 12 2011 17:48 TheSilverfox wrote: Regarding the 1-1-1 build. This is what the coach of SlayerS (Cella) have to say about it. You know the team with the most top Terran players in the world:
I'm not talking about imbalance but when the coach of the team with the best Terran players in the world says that this push is really bloody damn hard I do believe him.
Uh huh, that's why SlayerS got 3-killed by TWO protosses (SangHo and HongUn). I love Cella but people need to stop taking everything he says so seriously. Last time he jokingly tweeted he was no longer coach and there was an entire thread popping out blaming and slandering SlayerS_Jessica. That was bad.
And Puzzle just held a variation of 1-1-1 a few minutes ago.
You're a moron if you don't think protoss is weak right now.
Protoss is doing horribly overall and it's blatantly obvious. Anyone who refuses to believe so is just ignorant.
Pointing out rare cases where protoss has done well in the past month isn't a very strong argument by the way. Either protosses will figure something out soon or they will get buffed, so i'd quit your complaining and prepare.
Hei guys, i just read most part of that topic and i play protoss too. I don't have the impunity to say that i might have a solution, or that p is actually fair against terran. 111 is still one of the madest build ever against a protoss. But i would like to know what you guys think about a 1 gate, Stargate, Robotic, 2 gate expand then gate again ?
Getting phenixes to lift tanks, (4 at least, no need for void ray) zealots and sentries. You JUST have to lift of tanks and immobilize marines with FF. It went pretty well for me but i'm only a diamond player and it could pretty much be a lot worse on master or pro level.
I think the discussion has shifted from "how protoss are doing in GSL" to a "generic and personal whining involving Protoss".
I mean everyone have opinions on what aspects of the game aren't balanced (me too) but no one here play in the GSL, so if really protoss is so bad, and, if really protoss players will go out of code S in a couple of months we could safely assume that there's something really wrong. Even if your personal experience with protoss is different.
btw is a bit early to jump to this conclusion; and i think that, if this edition of GSL will really show that protoss have no future, they (the koreans) will do something to balance the game even without any Blizzard intervention.
They are smart and they can't afford to lose a 30% of viewers, so they will do something. There's no reason to worry imho.
Scouting I think is the issue with 1base 1-1-1 allins. However, I am not sure about non-all in 1-1-1s like the one MVP featured against MC. He did not go for the kill but for a hard contain after a 1rax cc and it looked really scary. This variant is still pretty new so a solution is far from obvious, but after watching that game I thought that 1) MC's contain bust was very bad and 2) there was a lot of room for exploiting mobility i.e. warprisms... We'll have to wait for more information here...
i'm not sure what MC could've done to break that. he was contained to 2 bases while MVP macroed the crap out of himself in the background. MVP had like 6 bunkers full of marines, a crapload of tanks and banshees and raven too. He was also constantly scouting with his group of banshees. He had all those tanks for coloxen and stalkers, like 30 marines in bunkers, making immortals pretty much obsolete, and a banshee sniping squad sniping and scouting stuff left and right. meanwhile having better economy to support anything that came to mvp's mind
You could literally see that MC is confused in that match, he doesn't have a clue how to handle it, and he is arguably the best protoss on the planet.
The only thing i could think of is not letting him to set up the siege line with that many bunkers. But that's pretty much a very little window of opportunity to handle the situation
Scouting I think is the issue with 1base 1-1-1 allins. However, I am not sure about non-all in 1-1-1s like the one MVP featured against MC. He did not go for the kill but for a hard contain after a 1rax cc and it looked really scary. This variant is still pretty new so a solution is far from obvious, but after watching that game I thought that 1) MC's contain bust was very bad and 2) there was a lot of room for exploiting mobility i.e. warprisms... We'll have to wait for more information here...
i'm not sure what MC could've done to break that. he was contained to 2 bases while MVP macroed the crap out of himself in the background. MVP had like 6 bunkers full of marines, a crapload of tanks and banshees and raven too. He was also constantly scouting with his group of banshees. He had all those tanks for coloxen and stalkers, like 30 marines in bunkers, making immortals pretty much obsolete, and a banshee sniping squad sniping and scouting stuff left and right. meanwhile having better economy to support anything that came to mvp's mind
You could literally see that MC is confused in that match, he doesn't have a clue how to handle it, and he is arguably the best protoss on the planet.
The only thing i could think of is not letting him to set up the siege line with that many bunkers. But that's pretty much a very little window of opportunity to handle the situation
Even if MC did try to kill him before the bunkers went up, MVP could have taken a leaf from TvZ's book, and leapfrogged tanks and set up the contain more slowly. It would have made very little difference, as MC had 200/200 when he went to bust out anyway, so MVP could afford to be slower.
On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote: Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work.
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
Read the damn thread. It's been discussed to death how harassment simply isn't cost effective for Protoss. And no, you are just straight up wrong in saying that the Shuttle was as weak as the Warp Prism.
I think the warp prism makes up for that by not having to hold onto any units when in transit unless you want to collosus or immortal drop. If you lose it, it's just a warp prism, if it makes it to the base you have the potential of however many warpgates worth of units in your base.
I don't think the problem is the warp prism, toss just doesn't have a unit that can move/attack and just generally deal damage effectively in a harassing role.
Edit: Except DTs if they aren't spotted.
It's no where near as simple as this, when you're talking about Protoss, the whole is very much better than the sum of it's parts. Gateway units are expensive, with 4 gates unloading from a Prism, that's at least 400 mins for pure Zealot, 500 for Stalkers. Not only is that money pooled to dump into a drop which WILL be cleaned up easily (Z'lings or MnM), those resources are deducted from your total army size and the T or Z just rolls you.
Using Zealots and Stalkers will never be an effective harassment method (relative to Z or T counterparts). This leaves HT's which cannot be warped in (due to lack of KA) and again take away from the army.
DT's are out of the equation because they're a piss poor replacement to their BW counterparts due to the readiness of available detection and the increased detection range static defences and scan have received.
Colo pointless, one per Prism to do essentially bugger all and Immos might kill what? A Depot? You obviously wouldn't use them vs a Z.
TL:DR Prism's are good for Storm drops and that alone and even then, their utilisation takes away from the P army as a whole.
On August 13 2011 00:00 Cosmos wrote: There was a PvP final last season, no more protoss in code A makes the GSL better ! ZvT FTW !
i dont see whats so good about marines chasing birds most of the time in most games tho. as much variety as possible would be ideal ofc and if any race is underrepresented it's less awesome - still awesome tho
Scouting I think is the issue with 1base 1-1-1 allins. However, I am not sure about non-all in 1-1-1s like the one MVP featured against MC. He did not go for the kill but for a hard contain after a 1rax cc and it looked really scary. This variant is still pretty new so a solution is far from obvious, but after watching that game I thought that 1) MC's contain bust was very bad and 2) there was a lot of room for exploiting mobility i.e. warprisms... We'll have to wait for more information here...
i'm not sure what MC could've done to break that. he was contained to 2 bases while MVP macroed the crap out of himself in the background. MVP had like 6 bunkers full of marines, a crapload of tanks and banshees and raven too. He was also constantly scouting with his group of banshees. He had all those tanks for coloxen and stalkers, like 30 marines in bunkers, making immortals pretty much obsolete, and a banshee sniping squad sniping and scouting stuff left and right. meanwhile having better economy to support anything that came to mvp's mind
You could literally see that MC is confused in that match, he doesn't have a clue how to handle it, and he is arguably the best protoss on the planet.
The only thing i could think of is not letting him to set up the siege line with that many bunkers. But that's pretty much a very little window of opportunity to handle the situation
Even if MC did try to kill him before the bunkers went up, MVP could have taken a leaf from TvZ's book, and leapfrogged tanks and set up the contain more slowly. It would have made very little difference, as MC had 200/200 when he went to bust out anyway, so MVP could afford to be slower.
you're right, i was just thinking, when did MC have even the slightest possibility to prevent being utterly fucked. because after the bunkers went up i can't think anything he could do. this seemed like a slower but even more effective variant of 1-1-1. maybe the only possibility is to attack the terran before he macros up to that point and catch the tanks unsieged, but that seems too unstable to me for a reliant solution
the situation comes to mind when zerg was struggling against the protoss deathball and the protosses kept replying "don't let the protoss get to that point" (not exactly the best answer). and then fungal got buffed to arguably overpovered status
On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote: Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work.
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
Read the damn thread. It's been discussed to death how harassment simply isn't cost effective for Protoss. And no, you are just straight up wrong in saying that the Shuttle was as weak as the Warp Prism.
I think the warp prism makes up for that by not having to hold onto any units when in transit unless you want to collosus or immortal drop. If you lose it, it's just a warp prism, if it makes it to the base you have the potential of however many warpgates worth of units in your base.
I don't think the problem is the warp prism, toss just doesn't have a unit that can move/attack and just generally deal damage effectively in a harassing role.
Edit: Except DTs if they aren't spotted.
It's no where near as simple as this, when you're talking about Protoss, the whole is very much better than the sum of it's parts. Gateway units are expensive, with 4 gates unloading from a Prism, that's at least 400 mins for pure Zealot, 500 for Stalkers. Not only is that money pooled to dump into a drop which WILL be cleaned up easily (Z'lings or MnM), those resources are deducted from your total army size and the T or Z just rolls you.
that's true for terran too, a medivac full of marines is 400 minerals for pure marines. the problem is that a bio army can afford the supply deficiency for medivacs because of better dps and stim and heal, so they're kinda always there. the problem is the nature of combat units for protoss, they're just not efficient if not in a ball. i agree with everything else you said
On August 11 2011 14:41 spawnzero wrote: Note: I don't want this to turn into a balance/imbalance thread, just discussion purely on top tier play(ers) right now. Also, if there is already a thread like this feel free to close this one.
So I've been watching as many matches I can over the past few days of GSL, specifically those of my race, protoss, and I can't help but begin to wonder a few things after watching the games and looking at results across the board. (Yes I realize we're only 1 round into the season and I know it's early)
There are a few statistics I find somewhat alarming as far as trends between races go. The first of which probably stands out to many of you already which is that already, MC and Alicia, widely considered two of the top 3 protoss in the world, are into U/D matches. Out of the six remaining toss (Huk, Killer, Trickster, HongUn, Genius, and Puzzle) I see maybe three or four of them making it out if we're lucky, and the odds of all five or six being slim to none due to Huk and Killer sharing a group with Bomber. Assuming two of them make it out that still leaves a fairly disproportionate number of protoss in the round of 16.
Now moving on to Code A... This scene could even be considered more grim than the one in Code S currently with only two protoss making it out of the round of 32, one of which was mandatory because they played another protoss (JYP/anypro). After tonight, I could very well see Tassadar being the only one left alive as JYP plays DRG soon. It's also again worth noting again that like the two mentioned earlier in Code S, many of these protoss players are not even unknowns by any means with former Code S players like Inca, vanvanth, and anypro. Not to mention well respected foreigners in Naniwa and Sase.
All in all, what do you guys think of these stats on protoss? Purely coincidence? Or has the race noticeably fallen behind?
Update: JYP is the toss savior of Code A beating DRG!! xD Although like posted further down in this thread, both his wins were due largely because of massive risks taken by DRG (6pool game 2 and gold base game 3)
Update #2: Tassadar down to Yoda.. Only JYP remains in Code A
Group stages are fun to watch, but are fucking terrible to the great players.
As far as being worried about toss dropping, there are a ton of terrans in Code S, the best zergs are in Code S consistently, that mixture with just a few really good Protoss in Code S will lead to there probably only being one protoss in top 8. It happens I'm sure there was a season where there was only one zerg in that spot as well.
Scouting I think is the issue with 1base 1-1-1 allins. However, I am not sure about non-all in 1-1-1s like the one MVP featured against MC. He did not go for the kill but for a hard contain after a 1rax cc and it looked really scary. This variant is still pretty new so a solution is far from obvious, but after watching that game I thought that 1) MC's contain bust was very bad and 2) there was a lot of room for exploiting mobility i.e. warprisms... We'll have to wait for more information here...
i'm not sure what MC could've done to break that. he was contained to 2 bases while MVP macroed the crap out of himself in the background. MVP had like 6 bunkers full of marines, a crapload of tanks and banshees and raven too. He was also constantly scouting with his group of banshees. He had all those tanks for coloxen and stalkers, like 30 marines in bunkers, making immortals pretty much obsolete, and a banshee sniping squad sniping and scouting stuff left and right. meanwhile having better economy to support anything that came to mvp's mind
You could literally see that MC is confused in that match, he doesn't have a clue how to handle it, and he is arguably the best protoss on the planet.
The only thing i could think of is not letting him to set up the siege line with that many bunkers. But that's pretty much a very little window of opportunity to handle the situation
MVP did a 1 rax expand and got double gas and fast tech immediately after the command center went down. He had just 1 bunker with very few marines until the first tank came out. MVP did a ultra greedy build and would have even died to light pressure.
On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote: Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work.
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
PvT in bw was a mainly mech based terran. marines were virtually non existent, and there were no vikings. goliaths provided only mobile aa.
therefore harrassment was alot harder to prevent from terrans perspective, and to stop it completely they had to invest heavily in missile turrets.
whereas sc2 they just make a couple of vikings which tear the warp prisms to shreds....or they can just stim some marines and take it out quickly.
not to mention storm drops in bw did waaaay more damage, and there is no reaver in sc2. therefore bw harassment was much more successful in general and cost effective.
i would like to see more attempts at warp prism use against zerg but it still doesn't take away from the fact the units dropped rarely deal large damage
Scouting I think is the issue with 1base 1-1-1 allins. However, I am not sure about non-all in 1-1-1s like the one MVP featured against MC. He did not go for the kill but for a hard contain after a 1rax cc and it looked really scary. This variant is still pretty new so a solution is far from obvious, but after watching that game I thought that 1) MC's contain bust was very bad and 2) there was a lot of room for exploiting mobility i.e. warprisms... We'll have to wait for more information here...
i'm not sure what MC could've done to break that. he was contained to 2 bases while MVP macroed the crap out of himself in the background. MVP had like 6 bunkers full of marines, a crapload of tanks and banshees and raven too. He was also constantly scouting with his group of banshees. He had all those tanks for coloxen and stalkers, like 30 marines in bunkers, making immortals pretty much obsolete, and a banshee sniping squad sniping and scouting stuff left and right. meanwhile having better economy to support anything that came to mvp's mind
You could literally see that MC is confused in that match, he doesn't have a clue how to handle it, and he is arguably the best protoss on the planet.
The only thing i could think of is not letting him to set up the siege line with that many bunkers. But that's pretty much a very little window of opportunity to handle the situation
MVP did a 1 rax expand and got double gas and fast tech immediately after the command center went down. He had just 1 bunker with very few marines until the first tank came out. MVP did a ultra greedy build and would have even died to light pressure.
MC played (too) passive and got punished for it.
Bullshit. MVP got a full scout of MC's base and there was nothing MC could have done about it. If MVP had scouted a 4gate or similar pressure build, he obviously would have not teched up and taken the gases and would have put down bunkers and protected himself and won. MC playing greedily was the best decision he could have made. In fact, the earlier the Nexus the more chances of victory against most 1-1-1 builds or variants.
Besides, I would contend that MVP played at least as passive until the 1-1-1 push as MC, if not more so. Why, then, should his push be strong enough to beat MC?
On August 11 2011 19:25 ZenithM wrote: It's nice to compare "Protoss whine" to "Zerg whine" some months ago. I'm not complaining about how bad Protoss seems to be lately (well it does bring boring 1:1:1 stompfest and more TvTs ;D). But there is a key difference:
Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA.
That's what bothers me. I've never considered Zerg the easiest race when I was seeing them losing a lot, and that all their players were retarded. It's still strange that despite Protoss being beaten by arguably very easily executable builds like 1/1/1 (way harder to defend, let's face it), we always get labeled as cheesy, dumb, slow, bad, and all that.
There must be something wrong design-wise there, right?
Yep. The thing is, Greg is obviously to biased/narrow minded to see that its not the players that are cheesy/gimicky/in favor of doing coinflip builds, its just that protoss is designed to play out that way. we dont have a viable harass unit for taking out mineral lines fast (like banelings or hellions) and we cant really do multi pronged attacks because our units are weak in low numbers.
what protoss need is:
1. a viable unit for harassment, to utilize the warp prism 2. better access to some of our tech units, like high templars for example. it just doesnt make sense that its soo expensive to get and yet we are absolutley dependant on having it to counter Infestors. I think blizzard should have lowered the tech requirements/costs when they took out KA
DTs, HTs, Sentries, or just zealots, are all completely viable harass units, maybe not as cost effective as hellions or infestors etc. but protoss units cost more in general anyway, what do you expect... Saying protoss doesn't have a unit for taking out mineral lines fast is just ridiculous. They do, it's just you never see protoss players using them because they are obsessed with massing a ball of doom and splitting off units is an alien concept to most protoss, except for defending drops
Do you really want something that can harass quickly, long build time, plenty of gas and dies quickly? Have reapers if you want them, majority of Terran players wouldn't notice they were gone
What to do I expect? What do I expect? I expect more expensive units to do more damage, last longer, and/or be able to kill more stuff. Otherwise, how in the hell is the Protoss race supposed to compete? In BW the theory was the expensive tier 3 stuff made up for other things, plus gateway armies were decent anyway. Now, gateway armies are the weakest by far, and tier 3 protoss is often weaker then tier 3 the other guys?! And costs more and takes longer to get to???? It doesn't make any sense.
Did you say "maybe not as cost effective" as hellions or infestors? Yeah, no kidding they aren't as cost effective. That's the problem. Protoss harassment is a joke, even Blizzard finally decided it was so bad they'd do something about it.
On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote: Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work.
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
PvT in bw was a mainly mech based terran. marines were virtually non existent, and there were no vikings. goliaths provided only mobile aa.
therefore harrassment was alot harder to prevent from terrans perspective, and to stop it completely they had to invest heavily in missile turrets.
whereas sc2 they just make a couple of vikings which tear the warp prisms to shreds....or they can just stim some marines and take it out quickly.
not to mention storm drops in bw did waaaay more damage, and there is no reaver in sc2. therefore bw harassment was much more successful in general and cost effective.
i would like to see more attempts at warp prism use against zerg but it still doesn't take away from the fact the units dropped rarely deal large damage
Even worse, Terran harass got even better... reapers, hellions, BFH, banshees, cloaked banshees, medivac drops and probably more. All of those are potentially game ending harassments.
Zerg also got better... baneling drops, faster speedling runbys, infestors, and auto-magic boxing mutas. All can kill workers or nexuses quick.
Protoss? Lost reaver. Storm got weaker. Dark templars cost another expensive building. Zerg and Terran anti-air is better so warp prisms die instantly if spotted. Protoss did gain warp-in... but that's it.
This is why I hate discussing things on TL. There's so many people here and the threads become so large that both sides keep repeating themselves over and over and over again. You can't make any headway into the discussion because we're never allowed to get more than 5 feet beyond the starting line before being sent back to the beginning. It's like an argument taking place between two people with a memory span of 3 minutes.
On August 13 2011 04:05 The Doctor wrote: This is why I hate discussing things on TL. There's so many people here and the threads become so large that both sides keep repeating themselves over and over and over again. You can't make any headway into the discussion because we're never allowed to get more than 5 feet beyond the starting line before being sent back to the beginning. It's like an argument taking place between two people with a memory span of 3 minutes.
This is partially because there are already 30+ pages of discussion. There are bound to be repeats of the same topics because people aren't going to go through 30 pages worth of ideas.
On August 12 2011 20:20 MrSweetNess wrote: IMO, it's simply the players. Alicia and MC are meant to be the great Protoss hope, but they are slumping. I think Puzzle doesn't get as much credit as he deserves, he is a very good Protoss. IIRC there are the same amount of Protoss and Zerg in GSL Code S, both with 8. I just think that the Zergs are better than their Protoss opponents.
I also think that you will see a contrast if you look at the foreigner scene. Most of the best foreign players are Protoss (Naniwa, Huk, Socke, SaSe, White-Ra Kiwikaki and with ToD coming up). Seems to me it is just a case of the Korean Protoss not being as 'figured out' as the other races.
Naniwa and SaSe got 2-0d out of the Code A ro32 by mediocre zergs, Kiwikaki does nothing, ToD does nothing besides beat Alicia in PvP (one game being a four gate defense and another being a hidden nexus), Socke couldn't compete in Korea, White-Ra could not compete in Korea. So no, it's not "Korean" protoss, it's just protoss.
On August 13 2011 04:05 The Doctor wrote: This is why I hate discussing things on TL. There's so many people here and the threads become so large that both sides keep repeating themselves over and over and over again. You can't make any headway into the discussion because we're never allowed to get more than 5 feet beyond the starting line before being sent back to the beginning. It's like an argument taking place between two people with a memory span of 3 minutes.
This is partially because there are already 30+ pages of discussion. There are bound to be repeats of the same topics because people aren't going to go through 30 pages worth of ideas.
On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote: Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work.
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
PvT in bw was a mainly mech based terran. marines were virtually non existent, and there were no vikings. goliaths provided only mobile aa.
therefore harrassment was alot harder to prevent from terrans perspective, and to stop it completely they had to invest heavily in missile turrets.
whereas sc2 they just make a couple of vikings which tear the warp prisms to shreds....or they can just stim some marines and take it out quickly.
not to mention storm drops in bw did waaaay more damage, and there is no reaver in sc2. therefore bw harassment was much more successful in general and cost effective.
i would like to see more attempts at warp prism use against zerg but it still doesn't take away from the fact the units dropped rarely deal large damage
Even worse, Terran harass got even better... reapers, hellions, BFH, banshees, cloaked banshees, medivac drops and probably more. All of those are potentially game ending harassments.
Zerg also got better... baneling drops, faster speedling runbys, infestors, and auto-magic boxing mutas. All can kill workers or nexuses quick.
Protoss? Lost reaver. Storm got weaker. Dark templars cost another expensive building. Zerg and Terran anti-air is better so warp prisms die instantly if spotted. Protoss did gain warp-in... but that's it.
So I guess much more mobile siege units in collosi instead of the slow more difficult to use reaver is nothing also VRs can be pretty effective and are much better than LOL Scouts
On August 13 2011 04:05 The Doctor wrote: This is why I hate discussing things on TL. There's so many people here and the threads become so large that both sides keep repeating themselves over and over and over again. You can't make any headway into the discussion because we're never allowed to get more than 5 feet beyond the starting line before being sent back to the beginning. It's like an argument taking place between two people with a memory span of 3 minutes.
This is partially because there are already 30+ pages of discussion. There are bound to be repeats of the same topics because people aren't going to go through 30 pages worth of ideas.
I believe that's exactly what I just said, yes.
ok...then what was the point of stating the obvious?
On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote: Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work.
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
PvT in bw was a mainly mech based terran. marines were virtually non existent, and there were no vikings. goliaths provided only mobile aa.
therefore harrassment was alot harder to prevent from terrans perspective, and to stop it completely they had to invest heavily in missile turrets.
whereas sc2 they just make a couple of vikings which tear the warp prisms to shreds....or they can just stim some marines and take it out quickly.
not to mention storm drops in bw did waaaay more damage, and there is no reaver in sc2. therefore bw harassment was much more successful in general and cost effective.
i would like to see more attempts at warp prism use against zerg but it still doesn't take away from the fact the units dropped rarely deal large damage
get warp prism speed, then if it dies it becomes your fault.
if you make terran invest heavy missile turrents in every location and bases, you're getting your WP worth back.
sure, storm drop isn't anything like reaver drop, but it is still massive dmg. Transporting your HT to storm their entire army before you engage or use ti to chase an escaping army. Protect important units from EMP or FG and faster reinforce your army right no the spot.
the harassment option is an additional benefits. Alot of people are talking about the cost inefficient and other silly talks are missing the part where successful drops can kill an entire mineral line in few seconds or force your opponent response to defend an expansion. With how fast WP moves, it'll be your fault for losing those units in the first place.
Now I know I've stated these before, but all I was getting are circular argument back as to why WP is a bad unit. Not yet I have got a poster that specifically tell me the flaws in my scenarios or the major drawback you would get for using WP. Remember this is for late mid/late game play, which I believe WP will be a tremendous powerful tool to use that can win you games if you have the APM to support it.
that's true for terran too, a medivac full of marines is 400 minerals for pure marines. the problem is that a bio army can afford the supply deficiency for medivacs because of better dps and stim and heal, so they're kinda always there. the problem is the nature of combat units for protoss, they're just not efficient if not in a ball. i agree with everything else you said
Toss units from a Warp Prism have the problem of not doing great burst damage and cost/payoff ratios like a medivac drops.
That being said. I don't think Warp Prisms have been used to their full potential. Even White-ra only uses them as drop harass. Their power potential I see comes from exploiting Colo/Stalker cliff walking abilities with the Prism ferrying Sentry/Temps and warping in Zealots /reinforcements straight into an opponent's base and circumventing defenses.
I haven't tried applying it myself but the potential of it does exist . . . Though how practical that strat actually is hasn't been tested.
I actually like such ideas, but they are difficult to execute without sick mechanics and risky as hell. I mean you can actually pull this off theoretically but I'm just worried that what will happen will be a base race vs Terrans, they'll go "oh he's in my base and I'm forcefielded at the ramp, I'll just go and kill his main"
Will try this later. I'm not some QQing Protoss, I am willing to throw even the kitchen sink into my ladder games
I actually love abusing cliffwalked collosi to snipe mineral lines, pull them back at the first sign of vikings, and blink the stalkers into the oncoming viking counter. It's a nice way to harass and also keep the anti-collosi unit numbers down
On August 13 2011 07:38 Drowsy wrote: Regarding stargate phoenixes vs 1/1/1:
Can't terran simply put up an armory, stop banshee/tank production, mass marine+thor 1 base allin and crush any stargate opener?
Or they could just make Vikings instead of Banshees.
The other problem is that Stargate doesn't lead up to any kind of area of effect damage. So the Terran can just expand and get Stim/CS, and then kill you before you can get enough Colossi or Storm out.
On August 13 2011 04:05 The Doctor wrote: This is why I hate discussing things on TL. There's so many people here and the threads become so large that both sides keep repeating themselves over and over and over again. You can't make any headway into the discussion because we're never allowed to get more than 5 feet beyond the starting line before being sent back to the beginning. It's like an argument taking place between two people with a memory span of 3 minutes.
This is partially because there are already 30+ pages of discussion. There are bound to be repeats of the same topics because people aren't going to go through 30 pages worth of ideas.
I believe that's exactly what I just said, yes.
ok...then what was the point of stating the obvious?
Totally agree.
But that reminds me of a problem with TL.net. So many people post, leading to 30 page threads, so people end up repeating the same discussions over and over again. It's like two people with the memory capacities of TI12s arguing.
On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote: Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work.
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
PvT in bw was a mainly mech based terran. marines were virtually non existent, and there were no vikings. goliaths provided only mobile aa.
therefore harrassment was alot harder to prevent from terrans perspective, and to stop it completely they had to invest heavily in missile turrets.
whereas sc2 they just make a couple of vikings which tear the warp prisms to shreds....or they can just stim some marines and take it out quickly.
not to mention storm drops in bw did waaaay more damage, and there is no reaver in sc2. therefore bw harassment was much more successful in general and cost effective.
i would like to see more attempts at warp prism use against zerg but it still doesn't take away from the fact the units dropped rarely deal large damage
get warp prism speed, then if it dies it becomes your fault.
if you make terran invest heavy missile turrents in every location and bases, you're getting your WP worth back.
sure, storm drop isn't anything like reaver drop, but it is still massive dmg. Transporting your HT to storm their entire army before you engage or use ti to chase an escaping army. Protect important units from EMP or FG and faster reinforce your army right no the spot.
the harassment option is an additional benefits. Alot of people are talking about the cost inefficient and other silly talks are missing the part where successful drops can kill an entire mineral line in few seconds or force your opponent response to defend an expansion. With how fast WP moves, it'll be your fault for losing those units in the first place.
Now I know I've stated these before, but all I was getting are circular argument back as to why WP is a bad unit. Not yet I have got a poster that specifically tell me the flaws in my scenarios or the major drawback you would get for using WP. Remember this is for late mid/late game play, which I believe WP will be a tremendous powerful tool to use that can win you games if you have the APM to support it.
You are talking about getting a robotics bay, storm and warp prism upgrade. Do you know how late-game we are talking for this to happen? How you even can mention this as mid-game is mind boggling. Do you know how high amount of Vikings Terran usually has at this stage? Losing a prism with 4 HTs just isn't worth it.
Better keep them in the main army and try to win a straight up fight.
I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it. I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?'
The amulet is broken due to the warp-in mechanic. I still don't see why they can't find some kind of halfway solution, for example an upgrade that allows high temps to regenerate energy more quickly over time, but starting from the same initial value
On August 13 2011 08:16 Ubertron wrote: The amulet is broken due to the warp-in mechanic. I still don't see why they can't find some kind of halfway solution, for example an upgrade that allows high temps to regenerate energy more quickly over time, but starting from the same initial value
warp still got a delay and ... when u Spawn 15 infestor from larva ... and u got 15 FG ready to use it is the same thing as the HT problem ... Even with the ghost ... I dont even see the difference oO
On August 13 2011 08:16 Ubertron wrote: The amulet is broken due to the warp-in mechanic. I still don't see why they can't find some kind of halfway solution, for example an upgrade that allows high temps to regenerate energy more quickly over time, but starting from the same initial value
warp still got a delay and ... when u Spawn 15 infestor from larva ... and u got 15 FG ready to use it is the same thing as the HT problem ... Even with the ghost ... I dont even see the difference oO
Look, you can warp in to hidden pylons, ANYWHERE in the map and storm instantly with amulet. I'm a Protoss player but even I know that is ridiculous. I figured my suggestion was a neat, easily implementable way to buff HT effectiveness by increasing the amount of energy they will be going into fights with. This is especially critical now as you HAVE to spam feedback on infestors and ghosts, but still have enough left over for at least a few storms
I think one solution to the underused Warp Prism problem is to make Warp Prism have a separate queue compared to all other units (like a Barracks with a "reactor" EXCEPT one queue slot is for warp prism only, the rest is for all other units but not the warp prism. It's exclusive to each other).
In BW you only needed a few Reavers (massive Reavers wasn't common. Not as common as massing colossus and/or immortals in SC2) which is why Shuttles were seen often especially even with only one Robotics. So a solution could be to make Warp Prism have a separate queue slot for just itself that allows it to be built at the same time as a colossus, observer, or immortal.
KA solution would just have it be that warped in templars wouldn't get the benefit of KA but if you built them out of a Gateway they would.
Yeah that can definitely work.
Honestly though I think Warp Gates need some overhaul (or at least Gateways too).
I think once Warp Gates have been researched, all builds times should be the same as Warp Gates.
For example Zealot with 38 second build time will have only 28 with Warp Gate researched.
That way players can "practically" choose between Warp Gates or regular Gateways (currently why even bother using regular gateways when it has a higher production time, can't reinforce in Pylon radius, and can't reinforce as fast as gateways?).
On August 11 2011 17:53 Elwar wrote: I want to sidestep the 1/1/1 or zergs almost certain ability to get a great economic lead and focus on base defence.
This is where I see most protoss struggling badly. Drops.
Drops are killing protoss in the midgame. Protoss has the slowest reactionary units in the game (stimmed units + zerg units, much faster obviously), gateway units in small numbers are terrible against either zerg or terran (sidenote: which is why protoss' harassment ability sucks and/or relies on the opponent making mistakes), and protoss have no magic bullet response like the planetary fortress. Cannons are not the answer, they're expensive, can't cover much area, and are torn down so fast by marauders or roaches to the point where they don't matter unless you build a prohibitive amount. DTs are good at base defence...unless they bring detection and/or scan, in which case they're huuuuuge resource sinks.
Obviously protoss' shitty ability to defend themselves is countered by the army being quite strong when it is actually together and properly utilised, but its becoming harder and harder to get to that point as terrans and zergs learn to harass more effectively. I have no ideal solution, but this is a major problem as I see it.
We saw I believe some protoss (Tails? IIRC) have a bunch of zealots, like 5-6, and an archon at his main base and the terran (Taeja?) simply chose to drop right on top of them and the warpins he knew would happen. Thats 20+ supply of units at ONE base for defence, and they didn't do dick.
Umm, I'd say protoss have plenty to deal with drops. With warp-ins, charge zealots, blink stalkers, feedback, protoss actually have a much better answer to drops than either terran or zerg imo.
tails got doom dropped and that was his own fault for not having anything spotting it. Any race can lose to something like that if you don't expect it. If he had just gotten 2 observers and kept them in good places that would never have happened.
Not really, warp ins are kind of terrible response against T drops. The problem is Terran drops are WAYYY too cost efficient vs Protoss. It takes SO much to deal with a single Terran drop, so we put a ton of resources into stopping the drop that means that we're vulnerable somewhere else. I think you should have to either upgrade medivac heal or drop ability ^_^
As for the 1/1/1 thing, the reason it's so powerful is because of cloak. Not necessarily the spell itself but the threat of it. We HAVE to get detection no matter what, so we have to put the resources into the robo and observers, usually 2. So, what kind of army can we get in time while building a robo and 2 observers ( you get 2 because if you only have one and they do go cloak they can easily pick one off with raven/marine ) ? I think it CAN be stopped but it's incredibly hard to do, and even if we have enough to stop it, Terran can just expand behind it and set up a huge contain with 10 bunkers and turrets outside of our natural.
Cloak isnt the issue in the 1-1-1 build of terran. The issue is that the main ground force of protoss is zealots and stalkers. Using a 1-1-1 build means a raven and PDD prevents most of the damage from the stalkers rendering us powerless in front of them.
I think some of the fixes for the early agression could be easily fixed by removing the PDD start ability of the ravens and lowering their costs a cost thus making them comparable to the observers and adding PDD as a researchable ability. Ghosts are hard counters to protoss' army because the area shield drain is more damage than anything any other units can deal instantly. Therefore, changing the mechanics of EMP to affect a set number of shield (in example, it takes a total of 450 shields or something) starting with the less costly unit might undo the hard counter of our deathballs.
The main issue of protss is that we MUST go gateways no matter what. Unlike a terran that can opt for mech or bio or certain units in their tree, any missing unit in the composition of protss is a hit to its effectiveness.
I think KA nerf was over the top. It could have given less starting energy or remained the same and increasing the cost of a storm.
Protoss air units are good harass very early on but they become useless end game. Carriers are too vulnerable to corruptors and unless theres only a few marines out to kill the interceptors, their damage in nill. Void rays are decent units but theyre costly and the low base damage means you have to overprotect them to dish out decent damage. Pheonixes are nice but they cannot hit ground and lift makes them stationnary and very vulnerable to just about anything that shoots up.
Then we have the Robotics units. Immortals and warp prism, probably the most underrated units. People complain about the immortals because they suck vs mass lings/marines. However, these are the same people who dont get shield upgrades. With shield upgrades and guardian shield, the issue of marines is inexistant and zerglings are easily handled by a few zealots.
Warp prism are nice to move around with your main army as a n alternative to pylons. If you get their speed upgrade, they allow you to instantly reinforce your army anywhere on the map. I do think they need to be more durable however. Colossus are nice when your opponents have not made a tech switch but they become targeted down so fast late game they barely get a few blows in.
I think the next step in protss gameplay is incorporating more shield upgrades and field immortals more often in a protss army composition along with more common abuse of hallucinations
I like the idea of Goldfish, like having 1 production spot in the robotics facility exclusively for the Warp-prism! That way we poor protoss wouldn't be forced to wait another minute for our Colossus! Nice thoughts, though!
I've personally felt for a long time that early game protoss units are really quite weak once past the initial stages, partially because their upgrades are so hard to get. Getting stim, shield and concussive shell for Terran is pretty easy, roach speed and ling speed for zerg is also fairly easy compared to getting charge for protoss, though blink isn't completely out of reach.
That period of time between "tier 1" and "tier 1.5" (or whatever you want to call it) just feels really rough, especially with expansions going down around then and all that fun stuff.
When warpgates got nerfed without much of a buff to gateway units, that timing just got harder to defend.
Eh. Dunno how it'll pan out, I don't see any real innovation possible personally (because of warpgate research) but there might be something the protoss players can do. All the things protoss used to be considered "imba" for seem to mostly be gone--warp in storms no longer exist, so high templar are just useful, not great lategame, deathball is not as effective since zerg started using more infestors, collosus are not really able to be snuck in without anti-air being constructed because of how long they take to build.
Honestly, I hope Blizzard does something about it, but there might be some solution w/o a buff/nerf.
On August 13 2011 09:08 DeckOneBell wrote: I've personally felt for a long time that early game protoss units are really quite weak once past the initial stages, partially because their upgrades are so hard to get. Getting stim, shield and concussive shell for Terran is pretty easy, roach speed and ling speed for zerg is also fairly easy compared to getting charge for protoss, though blink isn't completely out of reach.
That period of time between "tier 1" and "tier 1.5" (or whatever you want to call it) just feels really rough, especially with expansions going down around then and all that fun stuff.
When warpgates got nerfed without much of a buff to gateway units, that timing just got harder to defend.
Eh. Dunno how it'll pan out, I don't see any real innovation possible personally (because of warpgate research) but there might be something the protoss players can do. All the things protoss used to be considered "imba" for seem to mostly be gone--warp in storms no longer exist, so high templar are just useful, not great lategame, deathball is not as effective since zerg started using more infestors, collosus are not really able to be snuck in without anti-air being constructed because of how long they take to build.
Honestly, I hope Blizzard does something about it, but there might be some solution w/o a buff/nerf.
I am not sure sure what you mean by charge being out of reach. If you can get blink you can get charge and the building for it is part of our higher tech tree. If you meant the cost of these upgrades, you are correct but getting isn't much of an issue especially if you chronoboost them.
On August 13 2011 08:16 Grapesludge wrote: I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it. I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?'
I find it insulting to top Protoss players that you think they can't play a macro game. I think someone should close this thread already please..
On August 13 2011 09:08 DeckOneBell wrote: I've personally felt for a long time that early game protoss units are really quite weak once past the initial stages, partially because their upgrades are so hard to get. Getting stim, shield and concussive shell for Terran is pretty easy, roach speed and ling speed for zerg is also fairly easy compared to getting charge for protoss, though blink isn't completely out of reach.
That period of time between "tier 1" and "tier 1.5" (or whatever you want to call it) just feels really rough, especially with expansions going down around then and all that fun stuff.
When warpgates got nerfed without much of a buff to gateway units, that timing just got harder to defend.
Eh. Dunno how it'll pan out, I don't see any real innovation possible personally (because of warpgate research) but there might be something the protoss players can do. All the things protoss used to be considered "imba" for seem to mostly be gone--warp in storms no longer exist, so high templar are just useful, not great lategame, deathball is not as effective since zerg started using more infestors, collosus are not really able to be snuck in without anti-air being constructed because of how long they take to build.
Honestly, I hope Blizzard does something about it, but there might be some solution w/o a buff/nerf.
I am not sure sure what you mean by charge being out of reach. If you can get blink you can get charge and the building for it is part of our higher tech tree. If you meant the cost of these upgrades, you are correct but getting isn't much of an issue especially if you chronoboost them.
sure, but going twilight first always is a big risk of a build order loss Gateway Units plainly suck when Zerg gets LingSpeed/Roach Speed or Terran gets Stim/CS i guess it would be a good solution to delay warpgates (into Twilight for example) and instead putting blink/charge into core?
i would rather have Blink/Charge then Warpgate anyday...
On August 13 2011 08:16 Grapesludge wrote: I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it. I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?'
Thing is, Protoss isn't like Terran. You can't really macro AND do a timing attack that isn't all-in. At the very least, we don't really know how to do it at the moment. Up until now, the basic PvZ paradigm was to expand into heavy/all-in warpgate pressure, or expand while harassing and delaying the third with Stargate or DTs. None of these really work at the moment.
The other problem is that passive macro just doesn't work at the highest level of play. A Zerg freely droning without any pressure gets a huge economic advantage that is really hard to overcome. Used to be that Protoss maxed armies were really strong, so turtling to 200 on 3 bases was viable. But with the advent of Infestors, Banelings drops, and faster Hive tech, the Zerg can have an equally strong maxed army. Look at Ret vs Naniwa on Shakuras during the EU Blizzard Invitational - Ret was doubling Naniwa's supply at the 9:30 mark, with 60+ drones on 3 bases. Or the recent GSTL, MC vs Revival, where Revival throws tons of units away pointlessly throughout the game, and ends up rolling MC anyway because of the advantage he got in the early game.
The problem is really just having an opening that lets you break even with the Zerg at the very least, and Protoss just don't have it at the moment.
On August 13 2011 09:08 DeckOneBell wrote: I've personally felt for a long time that early game protoss units are really quite weak once past the initial stages, partially because their upgrades are so hard to get. Getting stim, shield and concussive shell for Terran is pretty easy, roach speed and ling speed for zerg is also fairly easy compared to getting charge for protoss, though blink isn't completely out of reach.
That period of time between "tier 1" and "tier 1.5" (or whatever you want to call it) just feels really rough, especially with expansions going down around then and all that fun stuff.
When warpgates got nerfed without much of a buff to gateway units, that timing just got harder to defend.
Eh. Dunno how it'll pan out, I don't see any real innovation possible personally (because of warpgate research) but there might be something the protoss players can do. All the things protoss used to be considered "imba" for seem to mostly be gone--warp in storms no longer exist, so high templar are just useful, not great lategame, deathball is not as effective since zerg started using more infestors, collosus are not really able to be snuck in without anti-air being constructed because of how long they take to build.
Honestly, I hope Blizzard does something about it, but there might be some solution w/o a buff/nerf.
I am not sure sure what you mean by charge being out of reach. If you can get blink you can get charge and the building for it is part of our higher tech tree. If you meant the cost of these upgrades, you are correct but getting isn't much of an issue especially if you chronoboost them.
sure, but going twilight first always is a big risk of a build order loss Gateway Units plainly suck when Zerg gets LingSpeed/Roach Speed or Terran gets Stim/CS i guess it would be a good solution to delay warpgates (into Twilight for example) and instead putting blink/charge into core?
i would rather have Blink/Charge then Warpgate anyday...
The solution is to delay the chronoboost to 12 probes instead of 10 and bring out an earlier gateway at 11 which makes your WG and timing that much sooner. Also, when groing vs Terrans, a fast +1 armor along with charge will allow you to easily undo any early push from marines and marauders. If youre scared for your base, have a cannon for sigh by mineral line and use a stalker or 2 itll stop any and all harass.
Ok I'm a protoss player I have a question does anyone know when any of this will be fixed like right now TvP feels ok I guess, but PvZ feels so imbalanced it's such as hard match up for me and pros I watch a lot of the pro scene. Protoss is so powerless in mid game and ya I wish we had drops like terran or something KA would be nice but blizzard won't introduce them back because it's their way of saying they were wrong and they won't admit they were wrong. I usually play 3 gate expo and poke at watch towers to harrass and turtle on 3 base and make a deathball if I can though my "deathball" gets owned by broodlord, infestor, roach. Zerg know how to deal with the "deathball" so how much longer is protoss going to have to wait and suffer until HotS? I can't wait 2 years until the next expansion, I'm sorry or is there a balance patch before that? just my 2 cents.
PvZ isn't that bad to be honest. Theres more micro involved and just like a bad infestor micro can wipe an etire zerg army, so can bad micro of our units and thats where the matchup stands.
Most p[layers that get pushed to death in PvZ is either because of lack of scouting or lack of agression. Being too passive when zergs are nkow for gredy hatches all over will usually demolish you. If you say PvZ is hard for you, put up some replays and open a thread asking what you could have done to better your play and possibly win the game!
For PvT, something I've been doing that works pretty well is a 1Gate Expand with 2Z 1S pressure. At the very least, it forces a bunker and gives you a good read on the opponent, and it works very well against non-bio openings. I'm pretty sure the main reason it works so well is because it's unheard of and because I'm playing at a really low level (Diamond), but it's at least worth a shot. The only thing that absolutely crushes it is a bio-SCV all-in.
On August 13 2011 08:16 Grapesludge wrote: I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it. I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?'
So the approach to the 1-1-1 build is to not attack, sit in your base and try to defend? REVOLUTIONARY! It isn't like that's the standard response to it which fails nearly every time...
In PvZ, Protoss has to pressure the Zerg, otherwise Zerg can get up to 3 bases plus unchallenged and then just stream units at the Protoss and/or get Infestor/Broodlord which destroys almost every Protoss unit combination, for the first example see + Show Spoiler +
MC's PvZ in the GSTL
, for the second see... well, there are a lot of examples in lower leagues but in higher leagues Protoss players aren't normally stupid enough to let that happen.
On August 13 2011 09:08 DeckOneBell wrote: I've personally felt for a long time that early game protoss units are really quite weak once past the initial stages, partially because their upgrades are so hard to get. Getting stim, shield and concussive shell for Terran is pretty easy, roach speed and ling speed for zerg is also fairly easy compared to getting charge for protoss, though blink isn't completely out of reach.
That period of time between "tier 1" and "tier 1.5" (or whatever you want to call it) just feels really rough, especially with expansions going down around then and all that fun stuff.
When warpgates got nerfed without much of a buff to gateway units, that timing just got harder to defend.
Eh. Dunno how it'll pan out, I don't see any real innovation possible personally (because of warpgate research) but there might be something the protoss players can do. All the things protoss used to be considered "imba" for seem to mostly be gone--warp in storms no longer exist, so high templar are just useful, not great lategame, deathball is not as effective since zerg started using more infestors, collosus are not really able to be snuck in without anti-air being constructed because of how long they take to build.
Honestly, I hope Blizzard does something about it, but there might be some solution w/o a buff/nerf.
I am not sure sure what you mean by charge being out of reach. If you can get blink you can get charge and the building for it is part of our higher tech tree. If you meant the cost of these upgrades, you are correct but getting isn't much of an issue especially if you chronoboost them.
sure, but going twilight first always is a big risk of a build order loss Gateway Units plainly suck when Zerg gets LingSpeed/Roach Speed or Terran gets Stim/CS i guess it would be a good solution to delay warpgates (into Twilight for example) and instead putting blink/charge into core?
i would rather have Blink/Charge then Warpgate anyday...
The solution is to delay the chronoboost to 12 probes instead of 10 and bring out an earlier gateway at 11 which makes your WG and timing that much sooner. Also, when groing vs Terrans, a fast +1 armor along with charge will allow you to easily undo any early push from marines and marauders. If youre scared for your base, have a cannon for sigh by mineral line and use a stalker or 2 itll stop any and all harass.
Can I ask what league you're in that these kind of strategies work? I can't imagine ever having charge and +1 armor out before an early marine + marauder push.
On August 13 2011 08:16 Grapesludge wrote: I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it. I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?'
So the approach to the 1-1-1 build is to not attack, sit in your base and try to defend? REVOLUTIONARY! It isn't like that's the standard response to it which fails nearly every time...
In PvZ, Protoss has to pressure the Zerg, otherwise Zerg can get up to 3 bases plus unchallenged and then just stream units at the Protoss and/or get Infestor/Broodlord which destroys almost every Protoss unit combination, for the first example see + Show Spoiler +
MC's PvZ in the GSTL
, for the second see... well, there are a lot of examples in lower leagues but in higher leagues Protoss players aren't normally stupid enough to let that happen.
there's not much "solid" play for protoss players in pvz right now. I have thought 2 base all ins were gimmicky for a long time and have approached the macro game instead. Obviously you can't do this without any pressure on zerg or the races mechanics will easily outmacro you.
I suggest 5 gate pressure (expo behind it) and try and match them in a macro game. However, the problem with this is that zergs are understanding the difference between light pressure and all ins now and react enough to stay alive, but they don't actually get behind, so they still outmacro you in the long run. Toss can't fall back on deathballs, because infestors deal with them (rightfully so).
The problem is there's no way to deny expos without moving your whole army or going with risky dt play or risky ht play... which is just huge investment in harassment. I think protosses need to struggle for awhile and try and come up with something, but there's actually no solid way to play, all harrass and expo denial is either through all ins or heavy invested tech.
Toss will benefit for awhile on things like ht drops, but the problem is zergs can spend time and resource to stop things like that if they were popular builds, because it's such a huge investment for a protoss to make.
so as of right now i'm either winning because i'm much better than the player i'm playing, i do something really risky they don't expect, or they over react to my initial 5 gate pressure. I always try to go with the most solid and safe styles, but if i was doing that against zerg right now i would be in mid diamond easy.
as for terran, 1/1/1 is their reason for domination. So if they aren't doing that, and you're the better player, you'll probably beat them. I just hope that blizzard looks at protoss and instead of deciding to make our tech better, they give us some sort of harass options or something. like baneling bombs in min line, or blue flame hellions in mineral line. neither of those cost near as much as ht or dt drops and they keep the player in their base. (lot drops are decent, but if the player has good reaction and doesn't pull a fat chunk of their army, they're waaaay too easy to deal with)
Edit: super long post, but have to add this. I kinda look at pvz as zvt. Think about how hard it is for zerg to pressure a terran midgame. They can threaten it sorta, but there's no way of doing any serious damage without doing something cheesy or all in, like a baneling bust or a gold expo, roach timing. now imagine that in the matchup zerg couldn't counter attack or harass with mutas.
I really like zvt because there's this indirect way that zergs deal with not being able to break the terran, and that's kind of my inspiration for how i play against zerg as protoss now, the only problem is that "mutas" in zvt are a much more solid style then "Ht drops/Dt harass" in pvz. just some thoughts. ty so much if u actually read this, and feel free to pm me
On August 13 2011 08:16 Grapesludge wrote: I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it. I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?'
Gimme a break. Zerg players love to claim they figured it out when truth is Blizzard figured it out for Zerg after incessant complaints. They never learned how to deal with reapers, reapers were nerfed. They never learned how to deal with bunker rushes, bunkers were nerfed. 2-rax a problem? Depot before rax nerf. 2-gating zealot pressure too hard to defend? Nerf zealot build times. Stim pushes to powerful? Nerf stim. Warp-gate pushes to effective? Delay warp-gate research. Air openers to much of a hassle to deal with? First nerf the Void Ray. That didnt work? Buff spore-root time so they don't have to pay as much a cost for poor building placement. Death-ball? Here you go zergs, your all-in-one counter, Infestors, 100% more DPS and 130% more DPS to armored.
So before you claim these protoss pros are idiots and just can't think outside the box perhaps you need to refect on the past wrt zerg pros who had no answers.
The reason why Terran and Protoss MUST do timing pushes, if they like winning, is because you leave a Zerg alone and it will be 200 vs 100 before you know it. Go watch nani vs ret in that tounament last week (i forgot what it was called) if you want to see what happens when a Protoss puts zero pressure on Zerg, it's laughably one sided due to zerg macro mechanics.
The meta game basically works like this. Terran and Protoss puts enough pressure/harass on Zerg to be on equal footing come mid game. Or kills them outright with an all in. If not they die.
On August 13 2011 08:16 Grapesludge wrote: I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it. I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?'
Gimme a break. Zerg players love to claim they figured it out when truth is Blizzard figured it out for Zerg after incessant complaints. They never learned how to deal with reapers, reapers were nerfed. They never learned how to deal with bunker rushes, bunkers were nerfed. 2-rax a problem? Depot before rax nerf. 2-gating zealot pressure too hard to defend? Nerf zealot build times. Stim pushes to powerful? Nerf stim. Warp-gate pushes to effective? Delay warp-gate research. Air openers to much of a hassle to deal with? First nerf the Void Ray. That didnt work? Buff spore-root time so they don't have to pay as much a cost for poor building placement. Death-ball? Here you go zergs, your all-in-one counter, Infestors, 100% more DPS and 130% more DPS to armored.
So before you claim these protoss pros are idiots and just can't think outside the box perhaps you need to refect on the past wrt zerg pros who had no answers.
The reason why Terran and Protoss MUST do timing pushes, if they like winning, is because you leave a Zerg alone and it will be 200 vs 100 before you know it. Go watch nani vs ret in that tounament last week (i forgot what it was called) if you want to see what happens when a Protoss puts zero pressure on Zerg, it's laughably one sided due to zerg macro mechanics.
The meta game basically works like this. Terran and Protoss puts enough pressure/harass on Zerg to be on equal footing come mid game. Or kills them outright with an all in. If not they die.
This pretty much sums it up. Almost all PvZ build orders are aimed at two things:
1. Secure your natural without straight up dying to an early push or being crippled by losing your sentries or having your Nexus cancelled.
2. Somehow denying or delaying Zerg's third which, if taken early enough, will mean death for you later due to their economic advantage.
DTs and SG openers have been more or less solved and aren't able to perform this function anymore. Zergs simply put a spore and a queen at their third and both of those builds are basically nullified. Any Zerg at a masters or higher level of play is going to be able to 'sense' these openers due to the sentry count, so it's rare for these builds to be effective.
3 gate robo is a great way to be safe and to lose to a 160 food push by the time you hit the 100 mark since you have no units. This build is completely unable to apply pressure unless the zerg is a total moron.
Thus we come to the 6/7/8 gate pressure builds and stuff like the +2 blink timings. These builds rely on praying that the Zerg overdrones or allows you to get some positional advantage on them. Gateway units aren't cost effective vs roach/ling and zerg gets a defenders advantage plus creep speed so these pushes (add in the fact that gateway units also are not cost effective vs roach/ling) will fail if the zerg is prepared.
The basic point here is that the ZvP metagame has evolved to a point where Zergs can basically get a free third while having enough units out to beat whatever Protoss can put in the field at that point and furthermore, due to this, they can deny a Protoss third. This isn't brood war where a 2 base protoss can push a 4 base zerg. Protoss and zerg are pretty much equal on even bases until high tech units come out and there are a lot of upgrades.
Map control, stronger army, more mobility, higher economy. All that's left is to somehow secure a third, turtle your ass off and pray that the guy will sit there maxed out while you do the same -- that's what happened in Idra vs. Huk on shakuras.
As long as dumb and abusive mechanics like warpgate and forcefield exist it will be incredibly hard for this situation to be resolved in a way that doesn't make protoss completely broken one way or the other.
On August 13 2011 09:08 DeckOneBell wrote: I've personally felt for a long time that early game protoss units are really quite weak once past the initial stages, partially because their upgrades are so hard to get. Getting stim, shield and concussive shell for Terran is pretty easy, roach speed and ling speed for zerg is also fairly easy compared to getting charge for protoss, though blink isn't completely out of reach.
That period of time between "tier 1" and "tier 1.5" (or whatever you want to call it) just feels really rough, especially with expansions going down around then and all that fun stuff.
When warpgates got nerfed without much of a buff to gateway units, that timing just got harder to defend.
Eh. Dunno how it'll pan out, I don't see any real innovation possible personally (because of warpgate research) but there might be something the protoss players can do. All the things protoss used to be considered "imba" for seem to mostly be gone--warp in storms no longer exist, so high templar are just useful, not great lategame, deathball is not as effective since zerg started using more infestors, collosus are not really able to be snuck in without anti-air being constructed because of how long they take to build.
Honestly, I hope Blizzard does something about it, but there might be some solution w/o a buff/nerf.
I am not sure sure what you mean by charge being out of reach. If you can get blink you can get charge and the building for it is part of our higher tech tree. If you meant the cost of these upgrades, you are correct but getting isn't much of an issue especially if you chronoboost them.
sure, but going twilight first always is a big risk of a build order loss Gateway Units plainly suck when Zerg gets LingSpeed/Roach Speed or Terran gets Stim/CS i guess it would be a good solution to delay warpgates (into Twilight for example) and instead putting blink/charge into core?
i would rather have Blink/Charge then Warpgate anyday...
this seriously would be such a good move by blizzard. I would hope to have this in HOTS at least
I understand the sentiment and Protoss players cannot properly pressure the Zerg in the mid game without being somewhat all in, and this the reason why there seems to be just 2 base all INS or heavy turtling. There seems to be no tempo based play of any sorts, and light pressure is dealt with easily as it is quite easy to tell when Protoss is pressuring or doing a timing (sentries on creep, proxy pylon at edge of creep).
However, I feel that not everything is explored properly. If you don't expose your sentries in the mid game, you are not going to be forced all in by moving out on the map. You also need some map presence that doesn't result in your army being surrounded by zerglings as another thing which forces Protoss players all in is because their army cannot retreat.
I feel that the future of PvZ is Phoenix charge lot harass. It doesn't expose sentries, it poses enough threat as pressure that the Zerg has to respect it, and removes map control from the Zerg.
On August 13 2011 07:38 Drowsy wrote: Regarding stargate phoenixes vs 1/1/1:
Can't terran simply put up an armory, stop banshee/tank production, mass marine+thor 1 base allin and crush any stargate opener?
Problem with phoenixes vs 1/1/1 is that by the time you scout with your obs it will be too late the 1/1/ will hit your base before you have time to put down the stargate and get out phoenixes.
PvT is ok, the pros lost to Terran just b/c of 1/1/1 build. But PvZ is having a huge problem with infestors and Zerglings, infestors is just too good vs anything from protoss, and lings are the cheapest units in the game, so all Zerg need is make a wall of spinecrawler to stop Protoss early aggression, turtle on 2 bases to get infestors/lings cuz they are cheaps and you just need a macro hatch to produce. Then destroy protoss gateways or taking map control while expanding and tech to hive, eitherway lings/banelings is just too good for harassing.
I wish Protoss has a good harassing units like banelings or hellions, so cheap and cost effective. One shot from 2 hellions/ or 2 banelings could kill the entire workers line while Dts got shut down by 1 single spore and spine crawlers. HTs drop is so expensive that when you fail, you're so far behind already.
While it is quite disparaging right now, i'm not going to start worrying until a month or two from now. Just like zerg was able to adapt and pick up their win rates, so shall protoss. And to be honest, while inca, vanvanth, and anypro were in code S for quite awhile, they are definitely not code S material.
Regarding PvT and the 1/1/1, i will give terran credit for not overly abusing this strategy up until now and getting it to last this long, but now that an uproar has commenced i see that strat's days as numbered.
If there is anything to learn from previous zerg QQ, we should know to have faith that things will turn around soon enough. If not from strats or patches, then atleast from the upcoming expansions.
On August 15 2011 03:40 Micket wrote: I understand the sentiment and Protoss players cannot properly pressure the Zerg in the mid game without being somewhat all in, and this the reason why there seems to be just 2 base all INS or heavy turtling. There seems to be no tempo based play of any sorts, and light pressure is dealt with easily as it is quite easy to tell when Protoss is pressuring or doing a timing (sentries on creep, proxy pylon at edge of creep).
However, I feel that not everything is explored properly. If you don't expose your sentries in the mid game, you are not going to be forced all in by moving out on the map. You also need some map presence that doesn't result in your army being surrounded by zerglings as another thing which forces Protoss players all in is because their army cannot retreat.
I feel that the future of PvZ is Phoenix charge lot harass. It doesn't expose sentries, it poses enough threat as pressure that the Zerg has to respect it, and removes map control from the Zerg.
How does it pose a threat? It loses brutally to ling/roach. You are able to attain map control briefly with it but you can't actually stop them from just taking more bases and droning like a maniac.
On August 15 2011 03:53 Spacekyod wrote: While it is quite disparaging right now, i'm not going to start worrying until a month or two from now. Just like zerg was able to adapt and pick up their win rates, so shall protoss. And to be honest, while inca, vanvanth, and anypro were in code S for quite awhile, they are definitely not code S material.
Regarding PvT and the 1/1/1, i will give terran credit for not overly abusing this strategy up until now and getting it to last this long, but now that an uproar has commenced i see that strat's days as numbered.
If there is anything to learn from previous zerg QQ, we should know to have faith that things will turn around soon enough. If not from strats or patches, then atleast from the upcoming expansions.
Zerg did not adapt. They were buffed and others nerfed. It's not a coincidence win rates picked up big time after march patch.
There has been very few metagame changes since beta other than hellions, most things people call metagame changes are simply game changes. Game changes that make x strategy viable or no longer viable.
The 1/1/1 is nothing new either, it's been around since beta as well. But was shut down hard with 3 gate stargate or soft counter w/4 gate both of which were nerfed so you see a resurgence as of late.
On August 11 2011 15:40 DarkRise wrote: I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression.
I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe).
But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies.
Maybe?
Or they can all just cannon rush.
It hasn't really changed; Protoss lategame is still very strong vs Zerg and will generally win in a ball vs ball engagement. ZvP for Zerg is won or lost in the midgame, and as Zergs get better with their mechanics and drone timings, they tilt the midgame more to their favor. I've always felt Protoss was weak in the midgame without blink stalkers, and fungal provides a decent solution to those.
Well, to be fair, tdt, I believe that the WG nerf wasn't motivated by Protoss WG timings being to strong vZ, but rather, it was an attempt to fix PvP. Still, many of your other examples hold. I too am tired of Zerg players going "Well, Zerg players figured stuff out, now Protoss players need to do that too!" when they completely ignore patch history. It also seems like whenever we bring up that point, the players who tell us that "Zerg figured stuff out, now Protoss needs to as well" conveniently fail to respond to us -_-;;
Still, I have faith in PvZ that Protoss can innovate more. It's the 1-1-1 all-in in PvT that I'm personally worried about. I hope to see some progress made on it soon, and to see that reflected in the upcoming GSL matches.
On August 15 2011 03:53 Spacekyod wrote: While it is quite disparaging right now, i'm not going to start worrying until a month or two from now. Just like zerg was able to adapt and pick up their win rates, so shall protoss. And to be honest, while inca, vanvanth, and anypro were in code S for quite awhile, they are definitely not code S material.
Regarding PvT and the 1/1/1, i will give terran credit for not overly abusing this strategy up until now and getting it to last this long, but now that an uproar has commenced i see that strat's days as numbered.
If there is anything to learn from previous zerg QQ, we should know to have faith that things will turn around soon enough. If not from strats or patches, then atleast from the upcoming expansions.
Zerg did not adapt. They were buffed and others nerfed. It's not a coincidence win rates picked up big time after march patch.
There has been very few metagame changes since beta other than hellions, most things people call metagame changes are simply game changes. Game changes that make x strategy viable or no longer viable.
The 1/1/1 is nothing new either, it's been around since beta as well. But was shut down hard with 3 gate stargate or soft counter w/4 gate both of which were nerfed so you see a resurgence as of late.
The roach/ling attack came out just before they were buffed (wave "hi" to the adaptation). And the only buff they received was to the infestor, which still wasn't used initially afterwards, when their win rates were already starting to rise. Protoss had WG research time increased and zealot build time decreased, not huge deals considering you can still 4gate at roughly the same exact time.
I thought it was common knowledge that the 1/1/1 has been around since beta, hence why i said it has lasted this long. And to further back my point, we now have 2 threads going in the strat section providing guides and discussion on how to stop it. Once again, i am not worried yet, it's days are numbered.
Over the last two pages, something big has emerged for a call to change PvZ.
Protoss feels that you cannot pressure a Zerg without going all-in or investing too much into it or whatever, and that you have to pressure a Zerg to stay in the economic game.
Surely this all calls for a harass unit for the Protoss? read: Reaver?
People have been asking for a Reaver since beta, and with HotS coming out I think we can hope for it. It would have the same mechanics as the BW one but would have different stats to compensate for unit clumping etc, and would solve the role of harassing, and could also make the Warp Prism a better unit again as you'd finally have something to put in it. Reaver is a midgame harass unit, when all Protoss other choices for harassment are either lategame or mediocre.
On August 15 2011 03:53 Spacekyod wrote: While it is quite disparaging right now, i'm not going to start worrying until a month or two from now. Just like zerg was able to adapt and pick up their win rates, so shall protoss. And to be honest, while inca, vanvanth, and anypro were in code S for quite awhile, they are definitely not code S material.
Regarding PvT and the 1/1/1, i will give terran credit for not overly abusing this strategy up until now and getting it to last this long, but now that an uproar has commenced i see that strat's days as numbered.
If there is anything to learn from previous zerg QQ, we should know to have faith that things will turn around soon enough. If not from strats or patches, then atleast from the upcoming expansions.
Zerg did not adapt. They were buffed and others nerfed. It's not a coincidence win rates picked up big time after march patch.
There has been very few metagame changes since beta other than hellions, most things people call metagame changes are simply game changes. Game changes that make x strategy viable or no longer viable.
The 1/1/1 is nothing new either, it's been around since beta as well. But was shut down hard with 3 gate stargate or soft counter w/4 gate both of which were nerfed so you see a resurgence as of late.
The roach/ling attack came out just before they were buffed (wave "hi" to the adaptation). And the only buff they received was to the infestor, which still wasn't used initially afterwards, when their win rates were already starting to rise. Protoss had WG research time increased and zealot build time decreased, not huge deals considering you can still 4gate at roughly the same exact time. IdrA is pretty much the only person who does it now anyway, why bother when the protoss can hold it off if he's smart when you can just dominate with superior economy and mass roach in the mid game?
I thought it was common knowledge that the 1/1/1 has been around since beta, hence why i said it has lasted this long. And to further back my point, we now have 2 threads going in the strat section providing guides and discussion on how to stop it. Once again, i am not worried yet, it's days are numbered.
The roach/ling attack came after the warpgate nerf, which stopped warpgate by 20 seconds hence you have less units during your expo, so it is more vulnerable. Protoss did not have zealot build time decreased and you don't four gate at roughly the exact same time. 20 more seconds makes a 1-1-1 terran have a tank and several more marines to hold off your push. Zergs barely struggled with four gate before as long as they didn't play greedy which they do now because they know how big of a deal that 20 seconds is.
The 1-1-1 is also in response to the warpgate nerf because, again, you have less units at that time to be able to hold off any push. It has also been refined a lot more since then and Thorzain has used it in over half of his wins against Naniwa and MC back when no one else really did it that often. Then when protoss were starting to do well versus terran instead of working on their mid and late games, the Koreans rediscovered the build, refined it, and now use it every game. The threads in the strategy section do not provide replays of any high level korean terran doing it to them, but rather high masters NA server players who barely know how to focus fire and micro their marines. The people posting those threads in the strategy section are not better protoss than Tassadar who dies to it every time despite being an amazing protoss who has no doubt invested countless hours into his defense against it. Tassadar wiped the floor with Yoda in a macro game showing how superior of a player is, then got 1-1-1'd twice in a row to lose. That's a complete joke.
On August 15 2011 04:35 Spacekyod wrote: The roach/ling attack came out just before they were buffed (wave "hi" to the adaptation). And the only buff they received was to the infestor, which still wasn't used initially afterwards, when their win rates were already starting to rise. Protoss had WG research time increased and zealot build time decreased, not huge deals considering you can still 4gate at roughly the same exact time.
Zealot build time remained the same actually, and 4gate does now hit at a far later timing and is much more all-in. It is only sentry build time that was decreased, and that is only decreased from Gateways, not Warp Gates, AFAIK, to help Protoss defend early MM pressure in PvT. The roach/ling attack was a minor deal and is now used very little in the match-up: it forced Protoss to either go early Stargate or be honest with their build and put Forge etc at the front, but those are generally useful things to do anyway so it just punishes greedy play. It would be ignorant to say that Zerg's sudden rise in win percentages was due in that Roach/ling attack.
On August 15 2011 04:35 Spacekyod wrote:I thought it was common knowledge that the 1/1/1 has been around since beta, hence why i said it has lasted this long. And to further back my point, we now have 2 threads going in the strat section providing guides and discussion on how to stop it. Once again, i am not worried yet, it's days are numbered.
And yet it takes far more skill to beat it than it does to pull it off. In the GSL, the only times it has failed has been when the player completely screws it up and even then the win rate is phenomonal. The reason there is so much discussion about how to stop it is BECAUSE IT IS HARD. Otherwise it wouldn't be a big deal. There are only a couple of openings which Protoss can make that have a fair (read: estimated above 10%ish, although this is me just pulling numbers from thin air so dont take that seriously) chance, and those are early expand builds which seem very vulnerable to certain MM timings. Basically, it seems that PvT is becoming a coin-flip matchup, which is definetely NOT what Blizzard want.
All of this doesn't take into consideration MVP's build, which IMO looks even scarier and harder to punish at all, as if Terran's SCV scouts no early expansion from Protoss bunkers can just go up and any push is easily head off with Terran in front.
On August 11 2011 15:40 DarkRise wrote: I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression.
I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe).
But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies.
Maybe?
Or they can all just cannon rush.
It hasn't really changed; Protoss lategame is still very strong vs Zerg and will generally win in a ball vs ball engagement. ZvP for Zerg is won or lost in the midgame, and as Zergs get better with their mechanics and drone timings, they tilt the midgame more to their favor. I've always felt Protoss was weak in the midgame without blink stalkers, and fungal provides a decent solution to those.
Zerg now does completely fine in the late game. I've seen very high level (GSL Code S roughly) games where a Zerg doesn't even have a significant economic advantage, and cleans up a deathball very easily anyway. In particular, the combination of Baneling drops and Fungal pretty much smashes any Protoss ground army that isn't composed solely of Archons. Even without Fungal, there's no way to save Sentries or HTs from Baneling drops, it's just not physically possible.
I guess if Protoss could achieve an army composed of 10+ Archons, and all the assorted tech, then that would be pretty difficult to handle. But that really doesn't happen very often, and can be easily prevented anyway.
They should give a the warp prism more speed with out the upgrade, then add hit points (like three hundred) this could pave the way for collosus drops which could be a way for protoss to clean out workers similarly to hellions and banes.
On August 15 2011 05:25 Lore-Fighting wrote: They should give a the warp prism more speed with out the upgrade, then add hit points (like three hundred) this could pave the way for collosus drops which could be a way for protoss to clean out workers similarly to hellions and banes.
The biggest problem with the warp prism imo is that you cant mass produce (you can but at the cost of collusus >_>). Whats 4 zealots going to do? most people just pull their scv/drones and kill off your 400mineral worth of zealots. 4 stalkers cant kill workers fast enough. A buff increasing the load of the warp prism would be sick.
On August 13 2011 08:16 Grapesludge wrote: I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it. I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?'
Gimme a break. Zerg players love to claim they figured it out when truth is Blizzard figured it out for Zerg after incessant complaints. They never learned how to deal with reapers, reapers were nerfed. They never learned how to deal with bunker rushes, bunkers were nerfed. 2-rax a problem? Depot before rax nerf. 2-gating zealot pressure too hard to defend? Nerf zealot build times. Stim pushes to powerful? Nerf stim. Warp-gate pushes to effective? Delay warp-gate research. Air openers to much of a hassle to deal with? First nerf the Void Ray. That didnt work? Buff spore-root time so they don't have to pay as much a cost for poor building placement. Death-ball? Here you go zergs, your all-in-one counter, Infestors, 100% more DPS and 130% more DPS to armored.
So before you claim these protoss pros are idiots and just can't think outside the box perhaps you need to refect on the past wrt zerg pros who had no answers.
The reason why Terran and Protoss MUST do timing pushes, if they like winning, is because you leave a Zerg alone and it will be 200 vs 100 before you know it. Go watch nani vs ret in that tounament last week (i forgot what it was called) if you want to see what happens when a Protoss puts zero pressure on Zerg, it's laughably one sided due to zerg macro mechanics.
The meta game basically works like this. Terran and Protoss puts enough pressure/harass on Zerg to be on equal footing come mid game. Or kills them outright with an all in. If not they die.
All the things you mention are not what I was referring to, when I say gateway heavy timing pushes I am referring to builds such as blink stalker +2 weapon timing, 6-7 gate timing etc.
People are getting better at dealing with these attacks since it is possible to study when exactly the push will come and when to stop making drones, so as good as the timing push is, there is also the possability that a zerg has seen it many times before and know how to deal with it.
I am not calling anyone idiots, I was trying to find out what the problem might be, I don't have a solution to it, all I can do is point towards players that have an alternative style working well for them.
On August 15 2011 05:25 Lore-Fighting wrote: They should give a the warp prism more speed with out the upgrade, then add hit points (like three hundred) this could pave the way for collosus drops which could be a way for protoss to clean out workers similarly to hellions and banes.
The biggest problem with the warp prism imo is that you cant mass produce (you can but at the cost of collusus >_>). Whats 4 zealots going to do? most people just pull their scv/drones and kill off your 400mineral worth of zealots. 4 stalkers cant kill workers fast enough. A buff increasing the load of the warp prism would be sick.
You load up the worlds most expensive warp prison. 1 misclick when it gets shot down loses a quarter of your food and all your money.
It needs something else. Would be nice if it had a energy biased re-call from units within pylon radius, really small aoe. But, no more into this, since its not the forum to discuss balance really :/
It just feels like the other 2 races are so much deeper and have so many more options. Protoss has become so cookie cutter, and that is by design.
There are less abilities / upgrades for protoss units than the other races, and this leads to a more limited tech path with less for the other races to worry about.
This in conjunction with no viable harass unit has really lead to the other 2 races easily being able to hard-counter anything a toss can do.
I am, obviously, talking about at the very highest levels where people's skill ceiling is closer to being topped out. With us casual gamers there is still much for us to improve on. But this doesn't take away from the fact that toss is "broken". Not necessarily UP, in my eyes, but just "broken" in that there are very few avenues left to explore.
On August 15 2011 04:23 HolyArrow wrote: Well, to be fair, tdt, I believe that the WG nerf wasn't motivated by Protoss WG timings being to strong vZ, but rather, it was an attempt to fix PvP. Still, many of your other examples hold. I too am tired of Zerg players going "Well, Zerg players figured stuff out, now Protoss players need to do that too!" when they completely ignore patch history. It also seems like whenever we bring up that point, the players who tell us that "Zerg figured stuff out, now Protoss needs to as well" conveniently fail to respond to us -_-;;
Still, I have faith in PvZ that Protoss can innovate more. It's the 1-1-1 all-in in PvT that I'm personally worried about. I hope to see some progress made on it soon, and to see that reflected in the upcoming GSL matches.
Regardless of motivation it changed the game vs Z and T. You get one round of units later. (What's funny it did little for PvP tough. Last GSL was 100% 4gating. Inca mc, MC huk, and MC hongun.)
Anyway thats one less round makes breaking front door of 1/1/1 teching Terran impossible. Since before he had a bunker with 4 marines. And now has a bunker 8 marines and a tank. Similarly, while 4 gate wasnt all that powerful vs a compitant zerg, it still won sometimes and they delayed a bit, now it's basically a loss 100% of the time on a FE zerg.
On August 15 2011 05:25 Lore-Fighting wrote: They should give a the warp prism more speed with out the upgrade, then add hit points (like three hundred) this could pave the way for collosus drops which could be a way for protoss to clean out workers similarly to hellions and banes.
The biggest problem with the warp prism imo is that you cant mass produce (you can but at the cost of collusus >_>). Whats 4 zealots going to do? most people just pull their scv/drones and kill off your 400mineral worth of zealots. 4 stalkers cant kill workers fast enough. A buff increasing the load of the warp prism would be sick.
You load up the worlds most expensive warp prison. 1 misclick when it gets shot down loses a quarter of your food and all your money.
It needs something else. Would be nice if it had a energy biased re-call from units within pylon radius, really small aoe. But, no more into this, since its not the forum to discuss balance really :/
agree, while Zerg can load the entire army with just nydus worm and ovie is already there. Terran can mass drops MM much more effective. Protoss can't use mass recall mothership cuz they're just stupidly slow and hard to get
Problem is with P harass, the Warp Prism is so flimsy, an SCV with a gun could shoot it down. It takes 50 seconds in your Robo Facility, and the only real harassment type units P have are Dark Temps and Pheonix. Before KA removal, sometimes it would be super cost efficient just to morph a high temp in and blast the entire mineral line but that's removed... P just has to wage until HotS where DB says they will introduce a P harass unit (Reaver plzzzzzzzz)
On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote: Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work.
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
Shuttles were good in BW because in TvP you usually are able to get zealot bombs off before gols come out, and in general the unit AI makes it hard to chase shuttles effectively. In ZvP the only way to kill them is w/ scourge which the shuttle still can outrun, and shuttle play revolves around having air dominance with corsairs anyways.
Warp prisms are definitely underused but really need a hp buff and a cheaper/faster speed upgrade.
PvZ has always been very volatile so far in SC2 so a little bit more time will help. Terrans 1-1-1 all in is utter crap though. Next month or so will be interesting to see if blizzard will do anything.
Something that I take issue with that's frequently brought up is the idea that Protoss will always beat Zerg in a 200 vs 200 fight.
The main thing that most players don't factor in when they say stuff like this is the army value of the two armies. It's not uncommon for a maxed Protoss army to cost 25-40% more than the Zerg counterparts. Even "expensive" Zerg units like Hydralisks cost less than a Stalker does let alone Roaches and Zerglings.
A Zerg maxed on Infestor/Ultra/Broodlord/Corrupter which are pretty much the only units that have cost:food ratios similar to Protoss units can easily stand toe to toe with a well-composed late game Protoss "death ball."
If neither Huk nor Puzzle advance I think I might just off myself. Not to mention that I personally have won I think 3 out of my last 15 or so games.
On August 15 2011 06:30 Cyrak wrote: Something that I take issue with that's frequently brought up is the idea that Protoss will always beat Zerg in a 200 vs 200 fight.
The main thing that most players don't factor in when they say stuff like this is the army value of the two armies. It's not uncommon for a maxed Protoss army to cost 25-40% more than the Zerg counterparts. Even "expensive" Zerg units like Hydralisks cost less than a Stalker does let alone Roaches and Zerglings.
A Zerg maxed on Infestor/Ultra/Broodlord/Corrupter which are pretty much the only units that have cost:food ratios similar to Protoss units can easily stand toe to toe with a well-composed late game Protoss "death ball."
The idea that P is always better than Z in a 200 v 200 fight is simply not true anymore, as long as there are a decent number of infestors. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, it's just not true anymore. I really want to see Protosses, including both myself and progamers in tournaments, to actually win games without a balance patch. I just don't know how long it's going to take.
On August 15 2011 05:25 Lore-Fighting wrote: They should give a the warp prism more speed with out the upgrade, then add hit points (like three hundred) this could pave the way for collosus drops which could be a way for protoss to clean out workers similarly to hellions and banes.
The biggest problem with the warp prism imo is that you cant mass produce (you can but at the cost of collusus >_>). Whats 4 zealots going to do? most people just pull their scv/drones and kill off your 400mineral worth of zealots. 4 stalkers cant kill workers fast enough. A buff increasing the load of the warp prism would be sick.
Lategame warp prism = ownage (at least at mid masters mmr). Attack, warp in a lot of zealots to his main base, take out tech while scaring the shit out of him.
In the early-to mid game, warp prism+4 zealots can barely do anything. You don't have charge and it's too much of an investment (I'd rather expo or get more gateways).
Regarding the whole "If you used shuttles in BW, why can't you use warp prisms in SC2":
1. They're different games, each race has different units, there are different maps, different pathing, so I don't even see why this is an argument 2. Shuttles were a bit more resilient than warp prisms are, especially considering the higher dps of sc2 units. 3. The robo in BW had nothing better to do. You didn't use it to produce essential combat units (colossi). It was the support tree that provided shuttles for drops, reavers very often for drops, and observers for detection. In sc2 you sacrifice production time you could be spending on colossi, or in some situations immortals, 4. BW Protoss had units worth dropping. Zealots could keep up with workers a bit more, reavers were amazing, high templar had storms that covered a greater area and did more total damage, etc. In SC2, sentries are decent but are too costly to put in the glass house. Zealots are too slow, stalkers have too little dps, immortals are too expensive and only good against buildings, colossi don't work and are too expensive, dts are decent but expensive and most players would have detection at every base, and high templar can't be warped because Khaydarin is gone so they are costly to fly over and good players will pull workers pretty quickly. 5. SC2 Protoss is too ball oriented and it needs to be unfortunately. The strong units in large numbers have good synergy, but alone they don't work well. You're better off just throwing more into your ball. 6. It is easier to gain map awareness in SC2. You need to make sure the warp prism doesn't pass through any Xel'Naga towers and dodge through overlords and around buildings that can spot you. 7. The AI in BW made it hard to catch speed shuttles. A few stimmed marines, a queen, a spore crawler, a photon cannon, a missile turret, a viking, an infestor, and a muta are all likely to kill you in SC2 and you have little chance of escaping.
On August 15 2011 03:53 Spacekyod wrote: While it is quite disparaging right now, i'm not going to start worrying until a month or two from now. Just like zerg was able to adapt and pick up their win rates, so shall protoss. And to be honest, while inca, vanvanth, and anypro were in code S for quite awhile, they are definitely not code S material.
Regarding PvT and the 1/1/1, i will give terran credit for not overly abusing this strategy up until now and getting it to last this long, but now that an uproar has commenced i see that strat's days as numbered.
If there is anything to learn from previous zerg QQ, we should know to have faith that things will turn around soon enough. If not from strats or patches, then atleast from the upcoming expansions.
Zergs only started getting better lately because infestors were buffed and made easier to micro somewhat. I don't believe there will be a 'genius' protoss player out there to show us how its done. Most of the top Toss players are out, and I hoped that MC could teach us something new but he has lost early the last two GSL.
I feel that Protoss was the most nerfed race, if you will. Whenever there was a balance issue, we got nerfed. I mean, we have no KA amulet, yet Z can keep the Pathogen Glands, AND get a 20% armor buff. But I understannd the difference between having to wait for an infestor to hatch, and waiting 4 seconds to get an insta warping psy storm. I'm not QQing, I am just saying that in a large majority of patches, there were Protoss nerfs. Just my $0.02.
Zerg players said Protoss should innovate, the only unit I didn;t use in pvz is the carrier so I'm trying a sick FFE into 2 base carrier, but they roach bust me everytime
On August 15 2011 11:52 Kammalleri wrote: Zerg players said Protoss should innovate, the only unit I didn;t use in pvz is the carrier so I'm trying a sick FFE into 2 base carrier, but they roach bust me everytime
Try only using one stargate for carriers and adding in a mothership when you get the gas, adding more gates for the rest of the army, then push when momma pops out or use it to cloak your third coming up =). Mana tried it for fun a few times against zerg on his stream and surprisingly destroyed people. It seems pretty gimmicky but if the zerg is doing their crazy drone up to a million, that they usually begin when they see a void ray, then you should be safe. Just need to scout with the void ray and show it to them.
Sick of the PvZ whining bullshit. The 2 tier 3 units Zerg has have multiple counters. Brood Lords are countered by Blink Stalkers, Void Rays, etc. Ultralisks are countered by Void Rays, Archons, Immortals and more. What is the counter to these units? Infestors. What counters Infestors? Feedback. For 50 minerals cheaper you can warp in a unit that will instantly kill any Infestor on the battle. Then what are you left with? An army that melts instantly to everything Protoss has.
Individual GSL seasons have had a lot of volatility; I don't want to read too much into this. But, as someone said a few months ago, Terran and Zerg both have their clear top-tier players, and a whole lot of pretty-good players as a next tier. For Protoss you have MC, Alicia, maybe HongUn, and then it really goes downhill. (Although this was before Puzzle emerged as a strong player. Personally, I've never thought of Killer or Trickster as being particularly good.)
I never see warp prism play from protoss but I don't think the warp prism itself is to blame. The only unit protoss has that can kill workers fast enough is HT with storm and that's an investment only available late game. A few zelots are much cheaper but they don't kill workers as much as they just delay mining time. IMO toss needs a good harass unit that can kill workers so a warp prism in your base actually requires quick response. For now toss may have to just play like traditional zerg where you defend until you have 80 workers and abuse the full force of your late game.
Btw you can put warp prisms on tanks and start warping in zealots. You get a refund if the unit dies during warp in so it's pretty much free zeal bombing
On August 15 2011 12:25 Soulish wrote: Btw you can put warp prisms on tanks and start warping in zealots. You get a refund if the unit dies during warp in so it's pretty much free zeal bombing
I'm pretty sure you don't get refunded...and also marines would just shoot down the warp prism anyways.
On August 15 2011 12:16 ComTrav wrote: Individual GSL seasons have had a lot of volatility; I don't want to read too much into this. But, as someone said a few months ago, Terran and Zerg both have their clear top-tier players, and a whole lot of pretty-good players as a next tier. For Protoss you have MC, Alicia, maybe HongUn, and then it really goes downhill. (Although this was before Puzzle emerged as a strong player. Personally, I've never thought of Killer or Trickster as being particularly good.)
The problem is that this early into the game, saying a player is top-tier does not tell us anything. For example, protosses may be having problems because they have a deficiency somewhere (let's say harassing for instance) that other races are able to abuse (like zerg heavily droning up despite void rays and phoenixes encroaching). Therefore when you see a zerg get far ahead, they look better than the protoss, a good example is that people often say the zerg has much better macro even though the toss hasn't halted probe production at all the entire game.
Therefore it looks like protosses aren't as solid as players of the other races, and that if the players had chosen the opposite races when they began SC2, these roles may very well be reversed. This is just an example of how something in game design could cause players of a certain race to look worse, despite having the same exact skills. It is impossible to prove one way or the other that the Toss players not considered "top-tier" would be part of this tier if they were playing another race.
PvZ may feel imbalanced, but I think experimentation with timing and positioning will make it better. PvT, when its NOT a 1-1-1 also feels manageable. The only clear issue for P right now is the 1-1-1.
On August 15 2011 12:12 Joey Wheeler wrote: Sick of the PvZ whining bullshit. The 2 tier 3 units Zerg has have multiple counters. Brood Lords are countered by Blink Stalkers, Void Rays, etc. Ultralisks are countered by Void Rays, Archons, Immortals and more. What is the counter to these units? Infestors. What counters Infestors? Feedback. For 50 minerals cheaper you can warp in a unit that will instantly kill any Infestor on the battle. Then what are you left with? An army that melts instantly to everything Protoss has.
Actually zerglings kill HTs before you can fb, so you either storm a bunch of cheap lings or fb 1v1 infestor. You can never afford a big amount of hts like infestor cuz protoss armies are too expensive, leave you with a few 4-5 HTs only. And with the KA removed, ht is more useless than ever, too risky to invest. So What if Blizz remove energies upgrade from both infestor and ghost then
On August 15 2011 12:25 Soulish wrote: Btw you can put warp prisms on tanks and start warping in zealots. You get a refund if the unit dies during warp in so it's pretty much free zeal bombing
I'm pretty sure you don't get refunded...and also marines would just shoot down the warp prism anyways.
You do. Marines might shoot down warp prisms ( notice the plural, this idea calls for 4 to 5 prisms late game), but proper positioning you get the chance to unload an epic zeal bomb. Obviously this strat works best vs mech
On August 15 2011 12:25 Soulish wrote: Btw you can put warp prisms on tanks and start warping in zealots. You get a refund if the unit dies during warp in so it's pretty much free zeal bombing
Both Terran and protoss need to put pressure on Zerg or they will pull ahead in drone production once the queen is out. However, Protoss unit and not as cost efficient as Zerg unlike Terran. We have to resort to what people call cheesy tactics such as SG or DT. Attacking str8 on with roaches or lings defending is not just not cost efficient. Zerg will eventually pull ahead economically. Zerg are Often slightly ahead in economy not because they have good macro, most Zerg I play don't, they have huge minerals bank. But they abuse their economy advantage by massing roach and using infestor in which there are simply no way for a Toss to defend with units that are less cost efficient. Toss need superior positioning using sentry forcefield to hold it Off. If toss does not have easy access to the third base, we will eventually die cause the Zerg will take the whole map.
On August 15 2011 07:42 Darclite wrote: Regarding the whole "If you used shuttles in BW, why can't you use warp prisms in SC2":
1. They're different games, each race has different units, there are different maps, different pathing, so I don't even see why this is an argument 2. Shuttles were a bit more resilient than warp prisms are, especially considering the higher dps of sc2 units. 3. The robo in BW had nothing better to do. You didn't use it to produce essential combat units (colossi). It was the support tree that provided shuttles for drops, reavers very often for drops, and observers for detection. In sc2 you sacrifice production time you could be spending on colossi, or in some situations immortals, 4. BW Protoss had units worth dropping. Zealots could keep up with workers a bit more, reavers were amazing, high templar had storms that covered a greater area and did more total damage, etc. In SC2, sentries are decent but are too costly to put in the glass house. Zealots are too slow, stalkers have too little dps, immortals are too expensive and only good against buildings, colossi don't work and are too expensive, dts are decent but expensive and most players would have detection at every base, and high templar can't be warped because Khaydarin is gone so they are costly to fly over and good players will pull workers pretty quickly. 5. SC2 Protoss is too ball oriented and it needs to be unfortunately. The strong units in large numbers have good synergy, but alone they don't work well. You're better off just throwing more into your ball. 6. It is easier to gain map awareness in SC2. You need to make sure the warp prism doesn't pass through any Xel'Naga towers and dodge through overlords and around buildings that can spot you. 7. The AI in BW made it hard to catch speed shuttles. A few stimmed marines, a queen, a spore crawler, a photon cannon, a missile turret, a viking, an infestor, and a muta are all likely to kill you in SC2 and you have little chance of escaping.
AI hard to catch the speed shuttles seriously who relies on AI to help you in microing or picking off enemy speedshuttles tell that to stork or stats they will seriously make you change your mind in a single game try dropping a speedshuttle in his base . Than lets see if the AI has got to do anything with the game at all.
Blizzard keeps saying they want to wait until they nerf things, but they didn't wait to nerf Protoss- they just swung the bat. And now it's becoming clear that the game wasn't developed enough yet to warrant nerfs on really any of the races.
I think they should just take back all of the nerfs.
On August 11 2011 15:55 TheLOLas wrote: I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play. I personally dont think that Protoss players are changing up their game so they are being figured out. EGIncontrol actually stated this in a recent SOTG. When he said that his strategies were already solved. I think that when Protoss players start experimenting more we will see more victories for Aiur.
That's because Protoss is the most inflexible race.
On August 15 2011 12:12 Joey Wheeler wrote: Sick of the PvZ whining bullshit. The 2 tier 3 units Zerg has have multiple counters. Brood Lords are countered by Blink Stalkers, Void Rays, etc. Ultralisks are countered by Void Rays, Archons, Immortals and more. What is the counter to these units? Infestors. What counters Infestors? Feedback. For 50 minerals cheaper you can warp in a unit that will instantly kill any Infestor on the battle. Then what are you left with? An army that melts instantly to everything Protoss has.
brood lords aren't countered by blink stalkers... ever tried blink into a ball of roaches/lings/infestors underneath the brood lords to try kill them? yeah... and void rays are near useless in a big fight after (if) they do manage to kill off the broodlords quickly enough... zerg remaxes with roach ling, what are your six void rays going to do about it?
sure, in your gold league or whatever, your opponent may have his broodlords in the open waiting to be blink sniped. your opponent may have ultras and nothing else running into archon/immortal. truth is, broodlords with support are near impossible to deal with their stupid broodlings. also, roaches eat blink stalkers alive.
oh and, do you know how fucking slow high templar are? infestors usually get many fungals off before they get feedbacked, which is usually enough.
I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf"
I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play. I personally dont think that Protoss players are changing up their game so they are being figured out.
You're right, but I don't think it's the fault of Protoss players. I mean, how can they change their game in a major way? 2 months ago, it was obvious that Zergs and Terrans had lots of unexplored options open to them, and now that they've explored some of them they're at an advantage. What is there left to explore for Protoss players?
On August 15 2011 12:25 Soulish wrote: Btw you can put warp prisms on tanks and start warping in zealots. You get a refund if the unit dies during warp in so it's pretty much free zeal bombing
I'm pretty sure you don't get refunded...and also marines would just shoot down the warp prism anyways.
You do. Marines might shoot down warp prisms ( notice the plural, this idea calls for 4 to 5 prisms late game), but proper positioning you get the chance to unload an epic zeal bomb. Obviously this strat works best vs mech
Actually you don't get the money back if the units are killed while warping in. You do get the money back though if the pylon/warp prism is killed while warping in.
And about Shuttles/Warp Prism, Reavers did damage similar to Baneling drops and was reusable as long as you could multitask. Nothing in SC2 is similar to the harassment the Reaver provides. Zealot drops midgame really shouldn't get anyone in a decent level, and are only really viable if they move out or are out of position. Even so, the MM reinforcements should clean them up easily. Storm drops/DT drops/Zealot drops late game are great though but I don't think Protoss has good options mid game.
I think one of the major flaws of Protoss is that the race doesn't really allow you to outplay your opponent. Terran and to a lesser extent Zerg both have viable harassment options that allow them to outplay the opponent despite a disadvantage, such as MMM drops, hellions drops/runbys, ling runbys, etc. all of which they naturally gets. Protoss' harass options such as DTs and Phoenixes are a commitment and usually your army is relatively small after. You hardly ever see a Protoss come back from behind and take a win.
I think this is really shown in our PvZ matchup. Nowadays, the only way to pressure Zerg seems to be all-ining them with a heavy warpgate timing attack or else they'd explode in units with their 3 base economy. I believe this was the same issue PvZ had in BW... dunno for sure though, as I started watching during the era of Bisu. =x I guess we gotta wait for Bisu to show us how it's done!
in BW standard play was FE into corsair and speed zealots. the equivalent in SC2 just doesn't work because roaches are far, far more cost efficient than speed zealots.
On August 15 2011 13:11 Borkbokbork wrote: Blizzard keeps saying they want to wait until they nerf things, but they didn't wait to nerf Protoss- they just swung the bat. And now it's becoming clear that the game wasn't developed enough yet to warrant nerfs on really any of the races.
I think they should just take back all of the nerfs.
On August 15 2011 12:25 Soulish wrote: Btw you can put warp prisms on tanks and start warping in zealots. You get a refund if the unit dies during warp in so it's pretty much free zeal bombing
I am certain that's not true. Units that die during warp in still cost money and put the gate on cooldown. You get a refund if the warp prism (or pylon) is destroyed, but not the unit itself.
If you need all of the production queue on a robo for colossi or immortals why don't you try building a second robo? You could also even it out by building the second robo and using both for the warp prism and heavy hitters and then take the chrono boost you were spending on it on probes instead.
On August 15 2011 06:09 Whitewing wrote: Give warp prisms recall like arbiters in Brood War had.
This is far to powerful in combination with other spells like FF. The warp prism defiantly needs to be changed with either more speed or at least more hit points.
All this continued talk about increased cargo space or ability for the prism would not work in a balance situation. there are timings where warp prisms are favorable against specific builds from each race.
The unit itself works almost on reverse diminishing returns in that it gets stronger the more gates you have or the longer the game and is not very effective in the beginning.
Further each dropship from each race serves a dual purpose outside there drop ability. OverLords act as supply, a scouting tool, detection, creep spread, and drops. Med vacs are obviously used for drop but there added healing ability makes them essential throughout the game even if they were unable to drop. The warp prism serves a redundant purpose, it drops and it can then drop again. This is like getting a robo just to obs scout well you also upgrade hallucination for the purpose of scouting. If any changes needed to be adjusted on the prism what about talking about changing or adding a purpose to it? (cost a little gas also count as a pylon, allows things under it to build quicker [an added chrono effect of sorts], maybe even some kind of stasis field ability?) all suggestions may not be good but try to be creative.
On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote: I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf"
I call bullshit on 42 straight wins only 4 gating. Even if they were all pvp (the most viable matchup for 4 gate).
Proof please, otherwise I'm sick of people spouting BS like this trying to say the 4-gate is still too strong or too easy to execute or whatever the hell you are trying to prove.
On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote: I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf"
so your friend...who was in plat before the warp gate nerf.... magically won 42 straight games ONLY 4 gating AFTER the warp gate nerf?
On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote: I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf"
I call bullshit on 42 straight wins only 4 gating. Even if they were all pvp (the most viable matchup for 4 gate).
Proof please, otherwise I'm sick of people spouting BS like this trying to say the 4-gate is still too strong or too easy to execute or whatever the hell you are trying to prove.
That's right. I agreed with you there.
Hate to say that there are a lot of people who love to post about something that they have never tried before. Calling out Protoss to keep doing 4gate? Etc etc BS.
On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote: I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf"
Definitely a troll poster, first post and its "friend won 42 straight games using 4 gate" - get outta here spewing all these made up stories =/
On August 15 2011 13:11 Borkbokbork wrote: Blizzard keeps saying they want to wait until they nerf things, but they didn't wait to nerf Protoss- they just swung the bat. And now it's becoming clear that the game wasn't developed enough yet to warrant nerfs on really any of the races.
That's the only thing that kinda bugs me tbh, when protoss was doing well, they hit it hard and fast with nerf bats and not letting anything play out. Now after some possible (overbuffing/overnerfing) protoss is struggling quite a lot (especially in Korea) they decide its best to just keep waiting for the metagame to develop first? Sure some previous things needed some tweaking, but how come that general approach wasn't taken from the start? Just doesn't make sense and isn't consistent at all. Also, certain builds (particularly the 1/1/1) have been somewhat unfair for almost an entire year now, compared to how fast other things which were nerfed as a result of it being considered too difficult to handle, its no wonder that protoss players are getting pretty irritated lol =/
On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote: I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf"
This means absolutely nothing... I switched from Protoss to Terran in mid masters and after a few losses my ladder rank went back to exactly where it was and is now climbing. I find it funny that I've been winning pretty much 100% of my TvTs apparently terran aren't even good at their own mirror -_-
On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote: I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf"
This means absolutely nothing... I switched from Protoss to Terran in mid masters and after a few losses my ladder rank went back to exactly where it was and is now climbing. I find it funny that I've been winning pretty much 100% of my TvTs apparently terran aren't even good at their own mirror -_-
TvT is a lot more unforgiving than TvP or TvZ. One small misclick micro of a LOT of things can lead to instant loss both in early and lategame. That can't be said for TvP or TvZ, where a terran can make many more mistakes than their opponent and still not be too far behind.
And PvZ is definitely not balanced with the current state of infestors. HTs do NOT counter infestors because you will never have enough HTs to counter infestors. Zergs can sink all of their minerals into mass lings and use all of their gas on infestors, while protoss can't exactly zealot ht archon the entire game realistically (and therefore won't have enough gas to match infestor numbers). Two fungals is all it takes to kill a group of HT's and since feedback can only target one at a time realistically HT's cant do much (even if, in the unrealistic circumstance that you have enough HT's to feedback all of their infestors, which is rare if not EVER).
And since fungal+marines kill just about everything protoss has without much work theres nothing protoss can do once zerg reaches a critical mass of infestors unless the zerg is extremely careless with them, which is really hard to do unless you have maybe gold level control (aka capable of using at least two control groups, one for main army and another for infestors).
Feel free to watch destiny vs huk games on his youtube to see what I mean. Destiny SHOULDN'T be able to take any games off huk with their clear skill gap but he can go even with huk, ON KOREA (huk with no lag destiny with slight lag due to being on west coast) by going infestor-heavy playstyle. If destiny can take games off huk, how would high level (aka GSL) PvZ even be possible? Truthfully, its not, unless by some magic whoever the protoss is playing decides not to go infestors or are not using them correctly(see: whitera vs nerchio IPL finals, no infestors = ez win for protoss. not GSL level but you get the point)
Theres a lot of things blizzard can do to make infestors more balanced or actually beatable by protoss, such as any one, or all of the below
1: reducing fungal range to 3 so they can't fungal an entire army and run away and take minimal damage. 2: take away the 30% bonus damage to armoured 3: make it slow instead of stun like concussive shells (thanks Idra for the great idea!) 4: make it cost 150/150 (would actually help a lot considering that extra 50 minerals can be sunk into 2 zerglings) 5: remove pathogen glands and make it so you can't just make infestors and pop a fungal, same like what they did with amulet 6: make it so NP can't take massive. colossus sniping infestors before they can get close to fungal is one of the few things that protoss can do nowadays, either that or using void rays to snipe them. however NP range is same or just slightly less than colossus range (with lance) so thats impossible.
ANY ONE OF THE ABOVE would make infestors dealable for protoss lategame when zerg has their infestor broodlord deathball so hopefully we'll see something like that next patch
Blizz really needs to increase the energy cost for infested terrans (or otherwise put a cap on how many can be made at once, or how much damage they do, how much hp they have, etc.).
Maybe take away the infestor's ability to move while burrowed?
On August 15 2011 12:25 Soulish wrote: Btw you can put warp prisms on tanks and start warping in zealots. You get a refund if the unit dies during warp in so it's pretty much free zeal bombing
I may have misunderstood this post but why and how exactly would you do zealot drops/warpins on tanks?
Terran does really build tanks v toss and even if they did, which they don't, they protect tanks with even like 1 marine and your paper prism in doing down. Anyway charge and immortals make quick work of tanks.
On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote: I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf"
Definitely a troll poster, first post and its "friend won 42 straight games using 4 gate" - get outta here spewing all these made up stories =/
On August 15 2011 13:11 Borkbokbork wrote: Blizzard keeps saying they want to wait until they nerf things, but they didn't wait to nerf Protoss- they just swung the bat. And now it's becoming clear that the game wasn't developed enough yet to warrant nerfs on really any of the races.
That's the only thing that kinda bugs me tbh, when protoss was doing well, they hit it hard and fast with nerf bats and not letting anything play out. Now after some possible (overbuffing/overnerfing) protoss is struggling quite a lot (especially in Korea) they decide its best to just keep waiting for the metagame to develop first? Sure some previous things needed some tweaking, but how come that general approach wasn't taken from the start? Just doesn't make sense and isn't consistent at all. Also, certain builds (particularly the 1/1/1) have been somewhat unfair for almost an entire year now, compared to how fast other things which were nerfed as a result of it being considered too difficult to handle, its no wonder that protoss players are getting pretty irritated lol =/
Protoss was hit so hard with nerf bat people were like WTF in those threads. I remember with VR damage nerf it's like "yeah they were hard to deal with but not impossible must be team games" VR speed similar...same with the KA nerf which came as surprise to many, not protoss' either but Z &T as well. Anyway protoss was doing well because they could punish greed, either tech greed or economics greed. Now they can't do it to any threatening manner so much of the game is playing defense and losing.
Anyway I started playing SC2BW customs until game gets fixed. Way better game at it's core anyway with modern graphics.
On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote: I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf"
Definitely a troll poster, first post and its "friend won 42 straight games using 4 gate" - get outta here spewing all these made up stories =/
On August 15 2011 13:11 Borkbokbork wrote: Blizzard keeps saying they want to wait until they nerf things, but they didn't wait to nerf Protoss- they just swung the bat. And now it's becoming clear that the game wasn't developed enough yet to warrant nerfs on really any of the races.
That's the only thing that kinda bugs me tbh, when protoss was doing well, they hit it hard and fast with nerf bats and not letting anything play out. Now after some possible (overbuffing/overnerfing) protoss is struggling quite a lot (especially in Korea) they decide its best to just keep waiting for the metagame to develop first? Sure some previous things needed some tweaking, but how come that general approach wasn't taken from the start? Just doesn't make sense and isn't consistent at all. Also, certain builds (particularly the 1/1/1) have been somewhat unfair for almost an entire year now, compared to how fast other things which were nerfed as a result of it being considered too difficult to handle, its no wonder that protoss players are getting pretty irritated lol =/
Protoss was hit so hard with nerf bat people were like WTF in those threads. I remember with VR damage nerf it's like "yeah they were hard to deal with but not impossible must be team games" VR speed similar...same with the KA nerf which came as surprise to many, not protoss' either but Z &T as well. Anyway protoss was doing well because they could punish greed, either tech greed or economics greed. Now they can't do it to any threatening manner so much of the game is playing defense and losing.
Anyway I just play SC2BW customs until game gets fixed. Way better game at it's core anyway with modern graphics.
The best part about the nerf (pylon range+warp gate speed) is that it STILL hasn't fixed 4gate. The only way to counter a perfectly executed 4gate (see: Hongun vs MC) is still a defensive 4gate. The only reason people don't do it as much is that it is reasonably more difficult to execute it perfectly now to get the win in comparison to before, where the game punishd you less by giving you that faster warp gate timing, allowing a few mistakes to be made and the push to still remain successful. Not only that, but a defensive 4gate absolutely crushes an offensive one, and people often just do not want to take the chance of doing a 4gate non-econ opening knowing that they could be doing a BO instant loss.
Along with absolutely demolishing any chance of protoss early game-ending pressure vZ nowadays, they didn't fix what they intended to fix, and therefore screwed protoss (infestor change obv didn't help either).
On August 15 2011 07:42 Darclite wrote: Regarding the whole "If you used shuttles in BW, why can't you use warp prisms in SC2":
1. They're different games, each race has different units, there are different maps, different pathing, so I don't even see why this is an argument 2. Shuttles were a bit more resilient than warp prisms are, especially considering the higher dps of sc2 units. 3. The robo in BW had nothing better to do. You didn't use it to produce essential combat units (colossi). It was the support tree that provided shuttles for drops, reavers very often for drops, and observers for detection. In sc2 you sacrifice production time you could be spending on colossi, or in some situations immortals, 4. BW Protoss had units worth dropping. Zealots could keep up with workers a bit more, reavers were amazing, high templar had storms that covered a greater area and did more total damage, etc. In SC2, sentries are decent but are too costly to put in the glass house. Zealots are too slow, stalkers have too little dps, immortals are too expensive and only good against buildings, colossi don't work and are too expensive, dts are decent but expensive and most players would have detection at every base, and high templar can't be warped because Khaydarin is gone so they are costly to fly over and good players will pull workers pretty quickly. 5. SC2 Protoss is too ball oriented and it needs to be unfortunately. The strong units in large numbers have good synergy, but alone they don't work well. You're better off just throwing more into your ball. 6. It is easier to gain map awareness in SC2. You need to make sure the warp prism doesn't pass through any Xel'Naga towers and dodge through overlords and around buildings that can spot you. 7. The AI in BW made it hard to catch speed shuttles. A few stimmed marines, a queen, a spore crawler, a photon cannon, a missile turret, a viking, an infestor, and a muta are all likely to kill you in SC2 and you have little chance of escaping.
a 4 zealot drop dps is 53(with charge they are not slow at all), 2 marauder 4 marine is 60 stimmed , don't think that's such a huge difference. while medivac heals, warp prism can warp additional units on site, and run it away you can do inifinite number of warp-in drops with it. and don't forget probes killed can be re-produced 1.5 speed than scv.
On August 15 2011 07:42 Darclite wrote: Regarding the whole "If you used shuttles in BW, why can't you use warp prisms in SC2":
1. They're different games, each race has different units, there are different maps, different pathing, so I don't even see why this is an argument 2. Shuttles were a bit more resilient than warp prisms are, especially considering the higher dps of sc2 units. 3. The robo in BW had nothing better to do. You didn't use it to produce essential combat units (colossi). It was the support tree that provided shuttles for drops, reavers very often for drops, and observers for detection. In sc2 you sacrifice production time you could be spending on colossi, or in some situations immortals, 4. BW Protoss had units worth dropping. Zealots could keep up with workers a bit more, reavers were amazing, high templar had storms that covered a greater area and did more total damage, etc. In SC2, sentries are decent but are too costly to put in the glass house. Zealots are too slow, stalkers have too little dps, immortals are too expensive and only good against buildings, colossi don't work and are too expensive, dts are decent but expensive and most players would have detection at every base, and high templar can't be warped because Khaydarin is gone so they are costly to fly over and good players will pull workers pretty quickly. 5. SC2 Protoss is too ball oriented and it needs to be unfortunately. The strong units in large numbers have good synergy, but alone they don't work well. You're better off just throwing more into your ball. 6. It is easier to gain map awareness in SC2. You need to make sure the warp prism doesn't pass through any Xel'Naga towers and dodge through overlords and around buildings that can spot you. 7. The AI in BW made it hard to catch speed shuttles. A few stimmed marines, a queen, a spore crawler, a photon cannon, a missile turret, a viking, an infestor, and a muta are all likely to kill you in SC2 and you have little chance of escaping.
a 4 zealot drop dps is 53(with charge they are not slow at all), 2 marauder 4 marine is 60 stimmed , don't think that's such a huge difference. while medivac heals, warp prism can warp additional units on site, and run it away you can do inifinite number of warp-in drops with it. and don't forget probes killed can be re-produced 1.5 speed than scv.
Use blue flame hellions in drops and then you will see the difference between protoss harrasment and terran harrasment.
On August 15 2011 18:45 paradisefar wrote: a 4 zealot drop dps is 53(with charge they are not slow at all), 2 marauder 4 marine is 60 stimmed , don't think that's such a huge difference. while medivac heals, warp prism can warp additional units on site, and run it away you can do inifinite number of warp-in drops with it. and don't forget probes killed can be re-produced 1.5 speed than scv.
All protoss drops get countered by one viking, which can always be built because you wanna make them or medivacs anyay. While Protoss needs the useless stargate tech to build a phoenix, that does not even deal much damage and can die to the very same dropped marines. Speed for prism is retarded late in the tech tree and expensive.
I'm not a P player, but it seems like Terran may be ahead of Protoss right now in TvP. There seems to be many annoying timing attacks that Protoss have a hard time defending, and even scouting and preparing for. Am I right?
If I'm wrong, please do tell me. It just seems like it to me, and it would also explain the low number of protosses.
On August 11 2011 15:55 TheLOLas wrote: I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play. I personally dont think that Protoss players are changing up their game so they are being figured out. EGIncontrol actually stated this in a recent SOTG. When he said that his strategies were already solved. I think that when Protoss players start experimenting more we will see more victories for Aiur.
My thoughts exactly. Protoss just refuse to change their playstyle and when the other races find out about new strategies that beat the 2 strategies that protoss seem to use, they cry imba.
On August 11 2011 15:55 TheLOLas wrote: I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play. I personally dont think that Protoss players are changing up their game so they are being figured out. EGIncontrol actually stated this in a recent SOTG. When he said that his strategies were already solved. I think that when Protoss players start experimenting more we will see more victories for Aiur.
My thoughts exactly. Protoss just refuse to change their playstyle and when the other races find out about new strategies that beat the 2 strategies that protoss seem to use, they cry imba.
Lmao right. "Two strategies."
PvT you see mass gateway + ht, double forge gateway, zealot/archon, stalker/colossi, a good amount of phoenix play lately. There are about a hundred different timings of getting to each of these as well.
PvZ you have dt expand, stargate expand, blink stalker play, blink stalker/colossi, chargelot/archon/ht, stalker/voidray.
Note that every tech path possible is used.
The reason it looks like we have strategies is because your build order goes:
gateway --> cyber core --- > tech path you are going down until three base saturation
Sorry that we can't put tech labs and reactors and have everything come out of three different buildings with perfect synergy to have a hundred early game combinations and timings.
Try actually playing the race before you insult the hundreds of thousands/millions of people who actually have any idea how it works.
On August 11 2011 15:55 TheLOLas wrote: I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play. I personally dont think that Protoss players are changing up their game so they are being figured out. EGIncontrol actually stated this in a recent SOTG. When he said that his strategies were already solved. I think that when Protoss players start experimenting more we will see more victories for Aiur.
My thoughts exactly. Protoss just refuse to change their playstyle and when the other races find out about new strategies that beat the 2 strategies that protoss seem to use, they cry imba.
Still waiting for someone to explain to me how Terran play evolved so much in TvP.
Also, in PvZ, both races constantly innovate, which is why the winrate graph looks the way it does. Honestly, the "Protoss players don't innovate enough" is another stupid excuse similar to "Protoss players are just bad". It's Terrans who barely innovate, because they don't need to. It took them a year to figure out that Hellions are good, and they're being forced to use Ghosts because of the Infestor buff. They still prefer to drop 4-5 Scans while pushing a Zerg to avoid baneling bombs, instead of producing 1 Raven. And they do all of this because it works anyway. Why change if you're dominating the GSL as you are? The only thing that's changed a lot for them is TvT, because that's more than half their games, and it doesn't afford them the advantages they have in other matchups.
On August 11 2011 15:55 TheLOLas wrote: I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play. I personally dont think that Protoss players are changing up their game so they are being figured out. EGIncontrol actually stated this in a recent SOTG. When he said that his strategies were already solved. I think that when Protoss players start experimenting more we will see more victories for Aiur.
My thoughts exactly. Protoss just refuse to change their playstyle and when the other races find out about new strategies that beat the 2 strategies that protoss seem to use, they cry imba.
Still waiting for someone to explain to me how Terran play evolved so much in TvP.
Also, in PvZ, both races constantly innovate, which is why the winrate graph looks the way it does. Honestly, the "Protoss players don't innovate enough" is another stupid excuse similar to "Protoss players are just bad". It's Terrans who barely innovate, because they don't need to. It took them a year to figure out that Hellions are good, and they're being forced to use Ghosts because of the Infestor buff. They still prefer to drop 4-5 Scans while pushing a Zerg to avoid baneling bombs, instead of producing 1 Raven. And they do all of this because it works anyway. Why change if you're dominating the GSL as you are? The only thing that's changed a lot for them is TvT, because that's more than half their games, and it doesn't afford them the advantages they have in other matchups.
Innovation in TvP = using 1/1/1 50% of the games, standard MMM with the same timings you have used since beta the other 50% of the time. Adjust bunker timing by +/- 5 seconds depending on last patch notes.
On August 11 2011 15:55 TheLOLas wrote: I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play. I personally dont think that Protoss players are changing up their game so they are being figured out. EGIncontrol actually stated this in a recent SOTG. When he said that his strategies were already solved. I think that when Protoss players start experimenting more we will see more victories for Aiur.
My thoughts exactly. Protoss just refuse to change their playstyle and when the other races find out about new strategies that beat the 2 strategies that protoss seem to use, they cry imba.
Still waiting for someone to explain to me how Terran play evolved so much in TvP.
Also, in PvZ, both races constantly innovate, which is why the winrate graph looks the way it does. Honestly, the "Protoss players don't innovate enough" is another stupid excuse similar to "Protoss players are just bad". It's Terrans who barely innovate, because they don't need to. It took them a year to figure out that Hellions are good, and they're being forced to use Ghosts because of the Infestor buff. They still prefer to drop 4-5 Scans while pushing a Zerg to avoid baneling bombs, instead of producing 1 Raven. And they do all of this because it works anyway. Why change if you're dominating the GSL as you are? The only thing that's changed a lot for them is TvT, because that's more than half their games, and it doesn't afford them the advantages they have in other matchups.
Your question and comments suggests you have little understanding of the terran race and how the playstyle has changed. Please dont act like you actually has an understanding of the game, and dont ask questions when you behave like a douche.
Toss has been trying different things lol, theres your normal robo play, heavy gateway styles and its many variations (double ups, single ups, mass gateway), early templar tech, warp prism (not to mention the risk/reward is really messed up compared to other races drop methods), stargate (voidray all in, phoenix harass)
Only real thing that hasn't been explored is carriers and thats like saying get battlecruisers to a terran who is having trouble. Problem isn't winning when you have 10 carriers, problem is not dying getting there. Chances are if you can get carrier tech out you've already won the game a while back.
The issue is the same as what it was for zerg in early pvz, lack of ability to scout 111 quick enough without risking falling behind. Except toss doesn't have the ability to sacrifice 200-300 minerals to find out whats going on (saccing OL, scan). Toss has to use gas and getting robo or sentries+halluc sets you behind in being able to hold off 111. 111 is stupid hard to hold off as it is even if you assume its coming blind. But whatever, only time will tell, its too early to start making any real balance changes on this particular build. The rest of the matchup feels like it goes to the better player.
On August 11 2011 15:55 TheLOLas wrote: I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play. I personally dont think that Protoss players are changing up their game so they are being figured out. EGIncontrol actually stated this in a recent SOTG. When he said that his strategies were already solved. I think that when Protoss players start experimenting more we will see more victories for Aiur.
My thoughts exactly. Protoss just refuse to change their playstyle and when the other races find out about new strategies that beat the 2 strategies that protoss seem to use, they cry imba.
Still waiting for someone to explain to me how Terran play evolved so much in TvP.
Also, in PvZ, both races constantly innovate, which is why the winrate graph looks the way it does. Honestly, the "Protoss players don't innovate enough" is another stupid excuse similar to "Protoss players are just bad". It's Terrans who barely innovate, because they don't need to. It took them a year to figure out that Hellions are good, and they're being forced to use Ghosts because of the Infestor buff. They still prefer to drop 4-5 Scans while pushing a Zerg to avoid baneling bombs, instead of producing 1 Raven. And they do all of this because it works anyway. Why change if you're dominating the GSL as you are? The only thing that's changed a lot for them is TvT, because that's more than half their games, and it doesn't afford them the advantages they have in other matchups.
Your question and comments suggests you have little understanding of the terran race and how the playstyle has changed. Please dont act like you actually has an understanding of the game, and dont ask questions when you behave like a douche.
On August 15 2011 20:28 paradox_ wrote: Toss has been trying different things lol, theres your normal robo play, heavy gateway styles and its many variations (double ups, single ups, mass gateway), early templar tech, warp prism (not to mention the risk/reward is really messed up compared to other races drop methods), stargate (voidray all in, phoenix harass)
Only real thing that hasn't been explored is carriers and thats like saying get battlecruisers to a terran who is having trouble. Problem isn't winning when you have 10 carriers, problem is not dying getting there. Chances are if you can get carrier tech out you've already won the game a while back.
The issue is the same as what it was for zerg in early pvz, lack of ability to scout 111 quick enough without risking falling behind. Except toss doesn't have the ability to sacrifice 200-300 minerals to find out whats going on (saccing OL, scan). Toss has to use gas and getting robo or sentries+halluc sets you behind in being able to hold off 111. 111 is stupid hard to hold off as it is even if you assume its coming blind. But whatever, only time will tell, its too early to start making any real balance changes on this particular build. The rest of the matchup feels like it goes to the better player.
Agree with most of this post except the 'too early to start making any real balance changes on to the 1-1-1 build' part - that build has been around since release, I'd say an entire year is more than enough time =p
On August 11 2011 15:55 TheLOLas wrote: I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play. I personally dont think that Protoss players are changing up their game so they are being figured out. EGIncontrol actually stated this in a recent SOTG. When he said that his strategies were already solved. I think that when Protoss players start experimenting more we will see more victories for Aiur.
My thoughts exactly. Protoss just refuse to change their playstyle and when the other races find out about new strategies that beat the 2 strategies that protoss seem to use, they cry imba.
Still waiting for someone to explain to me how Terran play evolved so much in TvP.
Also, in PvZ, both races constantly innovate, which is why the winrate graph looks the way it does. Honestly, the "Protoss players don't innovate enough" is another stupid excuse similar to "Protoss players are just bad". It's Terrans who barely innovate, because they don't need to. It took them a year to figure out that Hellions are good, and they're being forced to use Ghosts because of the Infestor buff. They still prefer to drop 4-5 Scans while pushing a Zerg to avoid baneling bombs, instead of producing 1 Raven. And they do all of this because it works anyway. Why change if you're dominating the GSL as you are? The only thing that's changed a lot for them is TvT, because that's more than half their games, and it doesn't afford them the advantages they have in other matchups.
Your question and comments suggests you have little understanding of the terran race and how the playstyle has changed. Please dont act like you actually has an understanding of the game, and dont ask questions when you behave like a douche.
How has TvP changed, out of curiosity?
As a Protoss player the only way I've seen TvP change in the past few months is that more ghosts are used earlier now more often (see them a lot more before 3 bases/before 13 minutes)
And a lot more 1-1-1 used on ladder games. Back in May~ I'd get 1-1-1'd MAYBE once every 7-8 games now its about once every 2-3
On August 11 2011 15:55 TheLOLas wrote: I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play. I personally dont think that Protoss players are changing up their game so they are being figured out. EGIncontrol actually stated this in a recent SOTG. When he said that his strategies were already solved. I think that when Protoss players start experimenting more we will see more victories for Aiur.
My thoughts exactly. Protoss just refuse to change their playstyle and when the other races find out about new strategies that beat the 2 strategies that protoss seem to use, they cry imba.
Still waiting for someone to explain to me how Terran play evolved so much in TvP.
Also, in PvZ, both races constantly innovate, which is why the winrate graph looks the way it does. Honestly, the "Protoss players don't innovate enough" is another stupid excuse similar to "Protoss players are just bad". It's Terrans who barely innovate, because they don't need to. It took them a year to figure out that Hellions are good, and they're being forced to use Ghosts because of the Infestor buff. They still prefer to drop 4-5 Scans while pushing a Zerg to avoid baneling bombs, instead of producing 1 Raven. And they do all of this because it works anyway. Why change if you're dominating the GSL as you are? The only thing that's changed a lot for them is TvT, because that's more than half their games, and it doesn't afford them the advantages they have in other matchups.
Your question and comments suggests you have little understanding of the terran race and how the playstyle has changed. Please dont act like you actually has an understanding of the game, and dont ask questions when you behave like a douche.
You know, your response would've been much more effective at demonstrating my lack of understanding if you had actually answered my question. I'm perfectly willing to recant if someone demonstrates I'm wrong. I'm ready to point out how PvT changed on the Protoss side.
Besides, don't you think my basic line of reasoning is solid? Why would a race innovate if they're doing great with what they have currently? Protoss didn't innovate when turtling on 3 bases and thein rolling Zerg over was effective. Why would Terran innovate when the only time they've been significantly below 50% in a matchup, Blizzard immediately axed KA in order to remove the injustice? Success always breeds stagnation.
On August 11 2011 15:55 TheLOLas wrote: I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play. I personally dont think that Protoss players are changing up their game so they are being figured out. EGIncontrol actually stated this in a recent SOTG. When he said that his strategies were already solved. I think that when Protoss players start experimenting more we will see more victories for Aiur.
My thoughts exactly. Protoss just refuse to change their playstyle and when the other races find out about new strategies that beat the 2 strategies that protoss seem to use, they cry imba.
There are plenty of counter arguments for both of you in this thread. Are you too blind or too ignorant to understand them? Here is my favourite one that deserves to be reposted:
On August 15 2011 02:17 tdt wrote: I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it. I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?'
Gimme a break. Zerg players love to claim they figured it out when truth is Blizzard figured it out for Zerg after incessant complaints. They never learned how to deal with reapers, reapers were nerfed. They never learned how to deal with bunker rushes, bunkers were nerfed. 2-rax a problem? Depot before rax nerf. 2-gating zealot pressure too hard to defend? Nerf zealot build times. Stim pushes to powerful? Nerf stim. Warp-gate pushes to effective? Delay warp-gate research. Air openers to much of a hassle to deal with? First nerf the Void Ray. That didnt work? Buff spore-root time so they don't have to pay as much a cost for poor building placement. Death-ball? Here you go zergs, your all-in-one counter, Infestors, 100% more DPS and 130% more DPS to armored.
So before you claim these protoss pros are idiots and just can't think outside the box perhaps you need to refect on the past wrt zerg pros who had no answers.
The reason why Terran and Protoss MUST do timing pushes, if they like winning, is because you leave a Zerg alone and it will be 200 vs 100 before you know it. Go watch nani vs ret in that tounament last week (i forgot what it was called) if you want to see what happens when a Protoss puts zero pressure on Zerg, it's laughably one sided due to zerg macro mechanics.
The meta game basically works like this. Terran and Protoss puts enough pressure/harass on Zerg to be on equal footing come mid game. Or kills them outright with an all in. If not they die.
They need to nerf 1/1/1 a little, outside that Protoss is fine. I haven't seen a single game this GSL where a protoss lost where I thought "he should've won" outside of (maybe) that all-in (not like it's unholdable or anything, but it just pretty much autowins against a fast nexus with good micro), although that might be because a lot of protoss players aren't actually adapting to the all-in by scouting the expansion and then not dropping an early nexus. I loved the way Puzzle dealed with it in the GSTL (if you haven't seen that, he basically went immortal/phoenix against the all-in, although it didn't work against TheBest's all-in which was only marine/tank without any air, it crushed the 1/1/1 all-in with an expansion up for Puzzle).
On August 15 2011 20:57 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: They need to nerf 1/1/1 a little, outside that Protoss is fine. I haven't seen a single game this GSL where a protoss lost where I thought "he should've won" outside of (maybe) that all-in (not like it's unholdable or anything, but it just pretty much autowins against a fast nexus with good micro), although that might be because a lot of protoss players aren't actually adapting to the all-in by scouting the expansion and then not dropping an early nexus. I loved the way Puzzle dealed with it in the GSTL (if you haven't seen that, he basically went immortal/phoenix against the all-in, although it didn't work against TheBest's all-in which was only marine/tank without any air, it crushed the 1/1/1 all-in with an expansion up for Puzzle).
I don't see how you could consider that as "crushing the 1/1/1" when Puzzle had to pull probes off to help fend it off despite sniping three free banshees prior to the main engagement. If those banshees were in the main army, Puzzle would have undoubtedly been the one who gets 'crushed.' =/
Everyone saying "you just have to do this and this aginst1/1/1" We don't see the shit before it's to late. Freaking cheap ass bunkers infront of the ramp so we can't scout, and in no time you get a auto loss :S
Terrans are beating everyone in Korea atm. The only reason Protosses are feeling it more than Zergs is the fact that Zergs have gotten used to being the victim of imbalance and adjusted to suit. Also, if there was any real imbalance worth noting you wouldn't see the current Protoss domination in EU and most foreign tournaments.
I think the problem with the "lack of innovation" from Protoss is that all techs have already been used.
For example in PvZ you have startgate, DT, gateway timings, 1,2,3 gate expos and FFE, and a variety of possible 1 base pushes (4 gate/4gate blink/zealot sentry 5 gate).
In the deathball days, zergs just made roach hydra. There were no baneling bombs, there was no ling infestor, ling/bling/infestor, ling/bling/ultra; zerg literally only used roach/hydra/corruptor. Now we see the use of the other units. But protoss is already using all of theirs, aside from carriers and warp prisms, both of which are clearly not the answer. (Carrier because its like saying go BCs/broods; warp prism because there's nothing to drop that is remotely cost effective).
On August 15 2011 21:24 naggerNZ wrote: Terrans are beating everyone in Korea atm. The only reason Protosses are feeling it more than Zergs is the fact that Zergs have gotten used to being the victim of imbalance and adjusted to suit. Also, if there was any real imbalance worth noting you wouldn't see the current Protoss domination in EU and most foreign tournaments.
Naniwa and Sase, the two best foreign protoss besides Huk, just got 2-0'd out of Code A by mediocre zergs in the Ro32. In the highest level there looks to be an imbalance, foreign terrans not being good enough to exploit that doesn't change anything. Also the problem tends to be in the early game, Koreans are often extremely aggressive whereas foreign terrans prefer to sit back and macro. There just seems to be a "let's play a macro game and see who wins" mindset to foreign players whereas Koreans are like "ok let's go win now". Mid to late game PvT is fine, it's just the early game that is extremely annoying.
On August 15 2011 21:24 naggerNZ wrote: Terrans are beating everyone in Korea atm. The only reason Protosses are feeling it more than Zergs is the fact that Zergs have gotten used to being the victim of imbalance and adjusted to suit. Also, if there was any real imbalance worth noting you wouldn't see the current Protoss domination in EU and most foreign tournaments.
I disagree completely
It's just a matter of terran being the most complete race with the most options. And at the top level (korea), where every player knows how to exploit and best utilize every aspect of their race, terran will have a slight advantage. It's also obvious to tell that terran has by far the best players. It's hard to make a list of top 5 terrans because there's so many good ones.... it's hard to make a list of top 5 zergs/protoss because who are you really gonna put in there that is capable of a GSL win?
And the reason zergs aren't feeling it as much is because of the nature of vZ. Zergs lose a lot to unscouted stuff, but when it's properly scouted, larva and zerg production can make it so one can easily hold a push. Protoss scouts everything, sees it coming a mile away, but still can't hold stuff like 111 lol
I've seen Puzzle stomp the 1-1-1 build on his stream many times. What he does is gate->robo->gate-> expand->gate and from there reacts to what he sees. If there are banshees he'll make phoenix otherwise more gates.
For all the advocates of 1 gate expands to more gates, I'd ask you consider this; a long time ago Terrans were crying about Colossi killing their MM ball and Protoss would say it's fair that their tier 3 units destroy tier 1/1.5 units (Marines & Marauders). So doesn't it stand to reason that a Terran's tier 2.5/3 units (tanks and banshees) destroy Protoss' tier 1/1.5 gateway units?
EPT
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