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On August 15 2011 12:12 Joey Wheeler wrote:
Sick of the PvZ whining bullshit. The 2 tier 3 units Zerg has have multiple counters. Brood Lords are countered by Blink Stalkers, Void Rays, etc. Ultralisks are countered by Void Rays, Archons, Immortals and more. What is the counter to these units? Infestors. What counters Infestors? Feedback. For 50 minerals cheaper you can warp in a unit that will instantly kill any Infestor on the battle. Then what are you left with? An army that melts instantly to everything Protoss has.
brood lords aren't countered by blink stalkers... ever tried blink into a ball of roaches/lings/infestors underneath the brood lords to try kill them? yeah... and void rays are near useless in a big fight after (if) they do manage to kill off the broodlords quickly enough... zerg remaxes with roach ling, what are your six void rays going to do about it?
sure, in your gold league or whatever, your opponent may have his broodlords in the open waiting to be blink sniped. your opponent may have ultras and nothing else running into archon/immortal. truth is, broodlords with support are near impossible to deal with their stupid broodlings. also, roaches eat blink stalkers alive.
oh and, do you know how fucking slow high templar are? infestors usually get many fungals off before they get feedbacked, which is usually enough.
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I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf"
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I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play.
I personally dont think that Protoss players are changing up their game so they are being figured out.
You're right, but I don't think it's the fault of Protoss players. I mean, how can they change their game in a major way? 2 months ago, it was obvious that Zergs and Terrans had lots of unexplored options open to them, and now that they've explored some of them they're at an advantage. What is there left to explore for Protoss players?
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On August 15 2011 12:45 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 12:29 kenkaze291 wrote:On August 15 2011 12:25 Soulish wrote:
Btw you can put warp prisms on tanks and start warping in zealots. You get a refund if the unit dies during warp in so it's pretty much free zeal bombing I'm pretty sure you don't get refunded...and also marines would just shoot down the warp prism anyways. You do. Marines might shoot down warp prisms ( notice the plural, this idea calls for 4 to 5 prisms late game), but proper positioning you get the chance to unload an epic zeal bomb. Obviously this strat works best vs mech
Actually you don't get the money back if the units are killed while warping in. You do get the money back though if the pylon/warp prism is killed while warping in.
And about Shuttles/Warp Prism, Reavers did damage similar to Baneling drops and was reusable as long as you could multitask. Nothing in SC2 is similar to the harassment the Reaver provides. Zealot drops midgame really shouldn't get anyone in a decent level, and are only really viable if they move out or are out of position. Even so, the MM reinforcements should clean them up easily. Storm drops/DT drops/Zealot drops late game are great though but I don't think Protoss has good options mid game.
I think one of the major flaws of Protoss is that the race doesn't really allow you to outplay your opponent. Terran and to a lesser extent Zerg both have viable harassment options that allow them to outplay the opponent despite a disadvantage, such as MMM drops, hellions drops/runbys, ling runbys, etc. all of which they naturally gets. Protoss' harass options such as DTs and Phoenixes are a commitment and usually your army is relatively small after. You hardly ever see a Protoss come back from behind and take a win.
I think this is really shown in our PvZ matchup. Nowadays, the only way to pressure Zerg seems to be all-ining them with a heavy warpgate timing attack or else they'd explode in units with their 3 base economy. I believe this was the same issue PvZ had in BW... dunno for sure though, as I started watching during the era of Bisu. =x I guess we gotta wait for Bisu to show us how it's done!
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in BW standard play was FE into corsair and speed zealots. the equivalent in SC2 just doesn't work because roaches are far, far more cost efficient than speed zealots.
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On August 15 2011 13:11 Borkbokbork wrote:
Blizzard keeps saying they want to wait until they nerf things, but they didn't wait to nerf Protoss- they just swung the bat. And now it's becoming clear that the game wasn't developed enough yet to warrant nerfs on really any of the races.
I think they should just take back all of the nerfs.
WOOT! 5-rax reaper all the way!!!
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On August 15 2011 12:25 Soulish wrote:
Btw you can put warp prisms on tanks and start warping in zealots. You get a refund if the unit dies during warp in so it's pretty much free zeal bombing
I am certain that's not true. Units that die during warp in still cost money and put the gate on cooldown. You get a refund if the warp prism (or pylon) is destroyed, but not the unit itself.
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If you need all of the production queue on a robo for colossi or immortals why don't you try building a second robo? You could also even it out by building the second robo and using both for the warp prism and heavy hitters and then take the chrono boost you were spending on it on probes instead.
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On August 15 2011 06:09 Whitewing wrote:
Give warp prisms recall like arbiters in Brood War had.
This is far to powerful in combination with other spells like FF. The warp prism defiantly needs to be changed with either more speed or at least more hit points.
All this continued talk about increased cargo space or ability for the prism would not work in a balance situation. there are timings where warp prisms are favorable against specific builds from each race.
The unit itself works almost on reverse diminishing returns in that it gets stronger the more gates you have or the longer the game and is not very effective in the beginning.
Further each dropship from each race serves a dual purpose outside there drop ability. OverLords act as supply, a scouting tool, detection, creep spread, and drops. Med vacs are obviously used for drop but there added healing ability makes them essential throughout the game even if they were unable to drop. The warp prism serves a redundant purpose, it drops and it can then drop again. This is like getting a robo just to obs scout well you also upgrade hallucination for the purpose of scouting. If any changes needed to be adjusted on the prism what about talking about changing or adding a purpose to it? (cost a little gas also count as a pylon, allows things under it to build quicker [an added chrono effect of sorts], maybe even some kind of stasis field ability?) all suggestions may not be good but try to be creative.
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On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote:
I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf"
I call bullshit on 42 straight wins only 4 gating. Even if they were all pvp (the most viable matchup for 4 gate).
Proof please, otherwise I'm sick of people spouting BS like this trying to say the 4-gate is still too strong or too easy to execute or whatever the hell you are trying to prove.
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On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote:
I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf"
so your friend...who was in plat before the warp gate nerf.... magically won 42 straight games ONLY 4 gating AFTER the warp gate nerf?
i disagree
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On August 15 2011 14:38 Reborn58 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote:
I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf" I call bullshit on 42 straight wins only 4 gating. Even if they were all pvp (the most viable matchup for 4 gate). Proof please, otherwise I'm sick of people spouting BS like this trying to say the 4-gate is still too strong or too easy to execute or whatever the hell you are trying to prove.
That's right. I agreed with you there.
Hate to say that there are a lot of people who love to post about something that they have never tried before. Calling out Protoss to keep doing 4gate? Etc etc BS.
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On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote:
I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf"
Definitely a troll poster, first post and its "friend won 42 straight games using 4 gate" - get outta here spewing all these made up stories =/
On August 15 2011 13:11 Borkbokbork wrote:
Blizzard keeps saying they want to wait until they nerf things, but they didn't wait to nerf Protoss- they just swung the bat. And now it's becoming clear that the game wasn't developed enough yet to warrant nerfs on really any of the races.
That's the only thing that kinda bugs me tbh, when protoss was doing well, they hit it hard and fast with nerf bats and not letting anything play out. Now after some possible (overbuffing/overnerfing) protoss is struggling quite a lot (especially in Korea) they decide its best to just keep waiting for the metagame to develop first? Sure some previous things needed some tweaking, but how come that general approach wasn't taken from the start? Just doesn't make sense and isn't consistent at all. Also, certain builds (particularly the 1/1/1) have been somewhat unfair for almost an entire year now, compared to how fast other things which were nerfed as a result of it being considered too difficult to handle, its no wonder that protoss players are getting pretty irritated lol =/
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On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote:
I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf"
This means absolutely nothing... I switched from Protoss to Terran in mid masters and after a few losses my ladder rank went back to exactly where it was and is now climbing. I find it funny that I've been winning pretty much 100% of my TvTs apparently terran aren't even good at their own mirror -_-
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On August 15 2011 15:29 sickoota wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote:
I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf" This means absolutely nothing... I switched from Protoss to Terran in mid masters and after a few losses my ladder rank went back to exactly where it was and is now climbing. I find it funny that I've been winning pretty much 100% of my TvTs apparently terran aren't even good at their own mirror -_-
TvT is a lot more unforgiving than TvP or TvZ. One small misclick micro of a LOT of things can lead to instant loss both in early and lategame. That can't be said for TvP or TvZ, where a terran can make many more mistakes than their opponent and still not be too far behind.
And PvZ is definitely not balanced with the current state of infestors. HTs do NOT counter infestors because you will never have enough HTs to counter infestors. Zergs can sink all of their minerals into mass lings and use all of their gas on infestors, while protoss can't exactly zealot ht archon the entire game realistically (and therefore won't have enough gas to match infestor numbers). Two fungals is all it takes to kill a group of HT's and since feedback can only target one at a time realistically HT's cant do much (even if, in the unrealistic circumstance that you have enough HT's to feedback all of their infestors, which is rare if not EVER).
And since fungal+marines kill just about everything protoss has without much work theres nothing protoss can do once zerg reaches a critical mass of infestors unless the zerg is extremely careless with them, which is really hard to do unless you have maybe gold level control (aka capable of using at least two control groups, one for main army and another for infestors).
Feel free to watch destiny vs huk games on his youtube to see what I mean. Destiny SHOULDN'T be able to take any games off huk with their clear skill gap but he can go even with huk, ON KOREA (huk with no lag destiny with slight lag due to being on west coast) by going infestor-heavy playstyle. If destiny can take games off huk, how would high level (aka GSL) PvZ even be possible? Truthfully, its not, unless by some magic whoever the protoss is playing decides not to go infestors or are not using them correctly(see: whitera vs nerchio IPL finals, no infestors = ez win for protoss. not GSL level but you get the point)
Theres a lot of things blizzard can do to make infestors more balanced or actually beatable by protoss, such as any one, or all of the below
1: reducing fungal range to 3 so they can't fungal an entire army and run away and take minimal damage.
2: take away the 30% bonus damage to armoured
3: make it slow instead of stun like concussive shells (thanks Idra for the great idea!)
4: make it cost 150/150 (would actually help a lot considering that extra 50 minerals can be sunk into 2 zerglings)
5: remove pathogen glands and make it so you can't just make infestors and pop a fungal, same like what they did with amulet
6: make it so NP can't take massive. colossus sniping infestors before they can get close to fungal is one of the few things that protoss can do nowadays, either that or using void rays to snipe them. however NP range is same or just slightly less than colossus range (with lance) so thats impossible.
ANY ONE OF THE ABOVE would make infestors dealable for protoss lategame when zerg has their infestor broodlord deathball so hopefully we'll see something like that next patch
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Blizz really needs to increase the energy cost for infested terrans (or otherwise put a cap on how many can be made at once, or how much damage they do, how much hp they have, etc.).
Maybe take away the infestor's ability to move while burrowed?
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On August 15 2011 12:25 Soulish wrote:
Btw you can put warp prisms on tanks and start warping in zealots. You get a refund if the unit dies during warp in so it's pretty much free zeal bombing
I may have misunderstood this post but why and how exactly would you do zealot drops/warpins on tanks?
Terran does really build tanks v toss and even if they did, which they don't, they protect tanks with even like 1 marine and your paper prism in doing down. Anyway charge and immortals make quick work of tanks.
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On August 15 2011 15:24 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote:
I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf" Definitely a troll poster, first post and its "friend won 42 straight games using 4 gate" - get outta here spewing all these made up stories =/ Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 13:11 Borkbokbork wrote:
Blizzard keeps saying they want to wait until they nerf things, but they didn't wait to nerf Protoss- they just swung the bat. And now it's becoming clear that the game wasn't developed enough yet to warrant nerfs on really any of the races. That's the only thing that kinda bugs me tbh, when protoss was doing well, they hit it hard and fast with nerf bats and not letting anything play out. Now after some possible (overbuffing/overnerfing) protoss is struggling quite a lot (especially in Korea) they decide its best to just keep waiting for the metagame to develop first? Sure some previous things needed some tweaking, but how come that general approach wasn't taken from the start? Just doesn't make sense and isn't consistent at all. Also, certain builds (particularly the 1/1/1) have been somewhat unfair for almost an entire year now, compared to how fast other things which were nerfed as a result of it being considered too difficult to handle, its no wonder that protoss players are getting pretty irritated lol =/
Protoss was hit so hard with nerf bat people were like WTF in those threads. I remember with VR damage nerf it's like "yeah they were hard to deal with but not impossible must be team games" VR speed similar...same with the KA nerf which came as surprise to many, not protoss' either but Z &T as well. Anyway protoss was doing well because they could punish greed, either tech greed or economics greed. Now they can't do it to any threatening manner so much of the game is playing defense and losing.
Anyway I started playing SC2BW customs until game gets fixed. Way better game at it's core anyway with modern graphics.
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On August 15 2011 16:20 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 15:24 Zealot Lord wrote:On August 15 2011 13:32 WeaponX.7 wrote:
I beleive the game to be pretty well balanced (at high levels), however protoss is the easiest race to learn and play well. I can tell you how many times ive been a-moved by 0/3 zealot archon, while I try to kite my mmmgv ball back and macro. I also think that because of the fact that protoss remove the "defender advantage" its makes it frusterating for lower level players who have more trouble with macro. I do play terran (master league) but I have tilted hard on ladder and spontaneously switched to protoss on no practice and won some games. Friend of mine won 42 straight games with 4 gate going from plat to masters :S <-- after "nerf" Definitely a troll poster, first post and its "friend won 42 straight games using 4 gate" - get outta here spewing all these made up stories =/ On August 15 2011 13:11 Borkbokbork wrote:
Blizzard keeps saying they want to wait until they nerf things, but they didn't wait to nerf Protoss- they just swung the bat. And now it's becoming clear that the game wasn't developed enough yet to warrant nerfs on really any of the races. That's the only thing that kinda bugs me tbh, when protoss was doing well, they hit it hard and fast with nerf bats and not letting anything play out. Now after some possible (overbuffing/overnerfing) protoss is struggling quite a lot (especially in Korea) they decide its best to just keep waiting for the metagame to develop first? Sure some previous things needed some tweaking, but how come that general approach wasn't taken from the start? Just doesn't make sense and isn't consistent at all. Also, certain builds (particularly the 1/1/1) have been somewhat unfair for almost an entire year now, compared to how fast other things which were nerfed as a result of it being considered too difficult to handle, its no wonder that protoss players are getting pretty irritated lol =/ Protoss was hit so hard with nerf bat people were like WTF in those threads. I remember with VR damage nerf it's like "yeah they were hard to deal with but not impossible must be team games" VR speed similar...same with the KA nerf which came as surprise to many, not protoss' either but Z &T as well. Anyway protoss was doing well because they could punish greed, either tech greed or economics greed. Now they can't do it to any threatening manner so much of the game is playing defense and losing. Anyway I just play SC2BW customs until game gets fixed. Way better game at it's core anyway with modern graphics.
The best part about the nerf (pylon range+warp gate speed) is that it STILL hasn't fixed 4gate. The only way to counter a perfectly executed 4gate (see: Hongun vs MC) is still a defensive 4gate. The only reason people don't do it as much is that it is reasonably more difficult to execute it perfectly now to get the win in comparison to before, where the game punishd you less by giving you that faster warp gate timing, allowing a few mistakes to be made and the push to still remain successful. Not only that, but a defensive 4gate absolutely crushes an offensive one, and people often just do not want to take the chance of doing a 4gate non-econ opening knowing that they could be doing a BO instant loss.
Along with absolutely demolishing any chance of protoss early game-ending pressure vZ nowadays, they didn't fix what they intended to fix, and therefore screwed protoss (infestor change obv didn't help either).
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On August 15 2011 07:42 Darclite wrote:
Regarding the whole "If you used shuttles in BW, why can't you use warp prisms in SC2":
1. They're different games, each race has different units, there are different maps, different pathing, so I don't even see why this is an argument
2. Shuttles were a bit more resilient than warp prisms are, especially considering the higher dps of sc2 units.
3. The robo in BW had nothing better to do. You didn't use it to produce essential combat units (colossi). It was the support tree that provided shuttles for drops, reavers very often for drops, and observers for detection. In sc2 you sacrifice production time you could be spending on colossi, or in some situations immortals,
4. BW Protoss had units worth dropping. Zealots could keep up with workers a bit more, reavers were amazing, high templar had storms that covered a greater area and did more total damage, etc. In SC2, sentries are decent but are too costly to put in the glass house. Zealots are too slow, stalkers have too little dps, immortals are too expensive and only good against buildings, colossi don't work and are too expensive, dts are decent but expensive and most players would have detection at every base, and high templar can't be warped because Khaydarin is gone so they are costly to fly over and good players will pull workers pretty quickly.
5. SC2 Protoss is too ball oriented and it needs to be unfortunately. The strong units in large numbers have good synergy, but alone they don't work well. You're better off just throwing more into your ball.
6. It is easier to gain map awareness in SC2. You need to make sure the warp prism doesn't pass through any Xel'Naga towers and dodge through overlords and around buildings that can spot you.
7. The AI in BW made it hard to catch speed shuttles. A few stimmed marines, a queen, a spore crawler, a photon cannon, a missile turret, a viking, an infestor, and a muta are all likely to kill you in SC2 and you have little chance of escaping.
a 4 zealot drop dps is 53(with charge they are not slow at all), 2 marauder 4 marine is 60 stimmed , don't think that's such a huge difference. while medivac heals, warp prism can warp additional units on site, and run it away you can do inifinite number of warp-in drops with it. and don't forget probes killed can be re-produced 1.5 speed than scv.
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EPT
