EPTStill, I have faith in PvZ that Protoss can innovate more. It's the 1-1-1 all-in in PvT that I'm personally worried about. I hope to see some progress made on it soon, and to see that reflected in the upcoming GSL matches.
Protoss in GSL August - Page 35
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
Still, I have faith in PvZ that Protoss can innovate more. It's the 1-1-1 all-in in PvT that I'm personally worried about. I hope to see some progress made on it soon, and to see that reflected in the upcoming GSL matches. | ||
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Spacekyod
United States818 Posts
On August 15 2011 04:00 tdt wrote: Zerg did not adapt. They were buffed and others nerfed. It's not a coincidence win rates picked up big time after march patch. There has been very few metagame changes since beta other than hellions, most things people call metagame changes are simply game changes. Game changes that make x strategy viable or no longer viable. The 1/1/1 is nothing new either, it's been around since beta as well. But was shut down hard with 3 gate stargate or soft counter w/4 gate both of which were nerfed so you see a resurgence as of late. The roach/ling attack came out just before they were buffed (wave "hi" to the adaptation). And the only buff they received was to the infestor, which still wasn't used initially afterwards, when their win rates were already starting to rise. Protoss had WG research time increased and zealot build time decreased, not huge deals considering you can still 4gate at roughly the same exact time. I thought it was common knowledge that the 1/1/1 has been around since beta, hence why i said it has lasted this long. And to further back my point, we now have 2 threads going in the strat section providing guides and discussion on how to stop it. Once again, i am not worried yet, it's days are numbered. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
Protoss feels that you cannot pressure a Zerg without going all-in or investing too much into it or whatever, and that you have to pressure a Zerg to stay in the economic game. Surely this all calls for a harass unit for the Protoss? read: Reaver? People have been asking for a Reaver since beta, and with HotS coming out I think we can hope for it. It would have the same mechanics as the BW one but would have different stats to compensate for unit clumping etc, and would solve the role of harassing, and could also make the Warp Prism a better unit again as you'd finally have something to put in it. Reaver is a midgame harass unit, when all Protoss other choices for harassment are either lategame or mediocre. Plus, Reaver combined with Sentry FFs. I WANT! | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On August 15 2011 04:35 Spacekyod wrote: The roach/ling attack came out just before they were buffed (wave "hi" to the adaptation). And the only buff they received was to the infestor, which still wasn't used initially afterwards, when their win rates were already starting to rise. Protoss had WG research time increased and zealot build time decreased, not huge deals considering you can still 4gate at roughly the same exact time. IdrA is pretty much the only person who does it now anyway, why bother when the protoss can hold it off if he's smart when you can just dominate with superior economy and mass roach in the mid game? I thought it was common knowledge that the 1/1/1 has been around since beta, hence why i said it has lasted this long. And to further back my point, we now have 2 threads going in the strat section providing guides and discussion on how to stop it. Once again, i am not worried yet, it's days are numbered. The roach/ling attack came after the warpgate nerf, which stopped warpgate by 20 seconds hence you have less units during your expo, so it is more vulnerable. Protoss did not have zealot build time decreased and you don't four gate at roughly the exact same time. 20 more seconds makes a 1-1-1 terran have a tank and several more marines to hold off your push. Zergs barely struggled with four gate before as long as they didn't play greedy which they do now because they know how big of a deal that 20 seconds is. The 1-1-1 is also in response to the warpgate nerf because, again, you have less units at that time to be able to hold off any push. It has also been refined a lot more since then and Thorzain has used it in over half of his wins against Naniwa and MC back when no one else really did it that often. Then when protoss were starting to do well versus terran instead of working on their mid and late games, the Koreans rediscovered the build, refined it, and now use it every game. The threads in the strategy section do not provide replays of any high level korean terran doing it to them, but rather high masters NA server players who barely know how to focus fire and micro their marines. The people posting those threads in the strategy section are not better protoss than Tassadar who dies to it every time despite being an amazing protoss who has no doubt invested countless hours into his defense against it. Tassadar wiped the floor with Yoda in a macro game showing how superior of a player is, then got 1-1-1'd twice in a row to lose. That's a complete joke. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On August 15 2011 04:35 Spacekyod wrote: The roach/ling attack came out just before they were buffed (wave "hi" to the adaptation). And the only buff they received was to the infestor, which still wasn't used initially afterwards, when their win rates were already starting to rise. Protoss had WG research time increased and zealot build time decreased, not huge deals considering you can still 4gate at roughly the same exact time. Zealot build time remained the same actually, and 4gate does now hit at a far later timing and is much more all-in. It is only sentry build time that was decreased, and that is only decreased from Gateways, not Warp Gates, AFAIK, to help Protoss defend early MM pressure in PvT. The roach/ling attack was a minor deal and is now used very little in the match-up: it forced Protoss to either go early Stargate or be honest with their build and put Forge etc at the front, but those are generally useful things to do anyway so it just punishes greedy play. It would be ignorant to say that Zerg's sudden rise in win percentages was due in that Roach/ling attack. On August 15 2011 04:35 Spacekyod wrote:I thought it was common knowledge that the 1/1/1 has been around since beta, hence why i said it has lasted this long. And to further back my point, we now have 2 threads going in the strat section providing guides and discussion on how to stop it. Once again, i am not worried yet, it's days are numbered. And yet it takes far more skill to beat it than it does to pull it off. In the GSL, the only times it has failed has been when the player completely screws it up and even then the win rate is phenomonal. The reason there is so much discussion about how to stop it is BECAUSE IT IS HARD. Otherwise it wouldn't be a big deal. There are only a couple of openings which Protoss can make that have a fair (read: estimated above 10%ish, although this is me just pulling numbers from thin air so dont take that seriously) chance, and those are early expand builds which seem very vulnerable to certain MM timings. Basically, it seems that PvT is becoming a coin-flip matchup, which is definetely NOT what Blizzard want. All of this doesn't take into consideration MVP's build, which IMO looks even scarier and harder to punish at all, as if Terran's SCV scouts no early expansion from Protoss bunkers can just go up and any push is easily head off with Terran in front. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On August 15 2011 04:20 TheSubtleArt wrote: It hasn't really changed; Protoss lategame is still very strong vs Zerg and will generally win in a ball vs ball engagement. ZvP for Zerg is won or lost in the midgame, and as Zergs get better with their mechanics and drone timings, they tilt the midgame more to their favor. I've always felt Protoss was weak in the midgame without blink stalkers, and fungal provides a decent solution to those. Zerg now does completely fine in the late game. I've seen very high level (GSL Code S roughly) games where a Zerg doesn't even have a significant economic advantage, and cleans up a deathball very easily anyway. In particular, the combination of Baneling drops and Fungal pretty much smashes any Protoss ground army that isn't composed solely of Archons. Even without Fungal, there's no way to save Sentries or HTs from Baneling drops, it's just not physically possible. I guess if Protoss could achieve an army composed of 10+ Archons, and all the assorted tech, then that would be pretty difficult to handle. But that really doesn't happen very often, and can be easily prevented anyway. | ||
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On August 15 2011 05:25 Lore-Fighting wrote: They should give a the warp prism more speed with out the upgrade, then add hit points (like three hundred) this could pave the way for collosus drops which could be a way for protoss to clean out workers similarly to hellions and banes. The biggest problem with the warp prism imo is that you cant mass produce (you can but at the cost of collusus >_>). Whats 4 zealots going to do? most people just pull their scv/drones and kill off your 400mineral worth of zealots. 4 stalkers cant kill workers fast enough. A buff increasing the load of the warp prism would be sick. | ||
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duct_TAPE
492 Posts
On August 15 2011 02:17 tdt wrote: Gimme a break. Zerg players love to claim they figured it out when truth is Blizzard figured it out for Zerg after incessant complaints. They never learned how to deal with reapers, reapers were nerfed. They never learned how to deal with bunker rushes, bunkers were nerfed. 2-rax a problem? Depot before rax nerf. 2-gating zealot pressure too hard to defend? Nerf zealot build times. Stim pushes to powerful? Nerf stim. Warp-gate pushes to effective? Delay warp-gate research. Air openers to much of a hassle to deal with? First nerf the Void Ray. That didnt work? Buff spore-root time so they don't have to pay as much a cost for poor building placement. Death-ball? Here you go zergs, your all-in-one counter, Infestors, 100% more DPS and 130% more DPS to armored. So before you claim these protoss pros are idiots and just can't think outside the box perhaps you need to refect on the past wrt zerg pros who had no answers. The reason why Terran and Protoss MUST do timing pushes, if they like winning, is because you leave a Zerg alone and it will be 200 vs 100 before you know it. Go watch nani vs ret in that tounament last week (i forgot what it was called) if you want to see what happens when a Protoss puts zero pressure on Zerg, it's laughably one sided due to zerg macro mechanics. The meta game basically works like this. Terran and Protoss puts enough pressure/harass on Zerg to be on equal footing come mid game. Or kills them outright with an all in. If not they die. All the things you mention are not what I was referring to, when I say gateway heavy timing pushes I am referring to builds such as blink stalker +2 weapon timing, 6-7 gate timing etc. People are getting better at dealing with these attacks since it is possible to study when exactly the push will come and when to stop making drones, so as good as the timing push is, there is also the possability that a zerg has seen it many times before and know how to deal with it. I am not calling anyone idiots, I was trying to find out what the problem might be, I don't have a solution to it, all I can do is point towards players that have an alternative style working well for them. | ||
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Snackysnacks
United States411 Posts
On August 15 2011 05:31 sekritzzz wrote: The biggest problem with the warp prism imo is that you cant mass produce (you can but at the cost of collusus >_>). Whats 4 zealots going to do? most people just pull their scv/drones and kill off your 400mineral worth of zealots. 4 stalkers cant kill workers fast enough. A buff increasing the load of the warp prism would be sick. You load up the worlds most expensive warp prison. 1 misclick when it gets shot down loses a quarter of your food and all your money. It needs something else. Would be nice if it had a energy biased re-call from units within pylon radius, really small aoe. But, no more into this, since its not the forum to discuss balance really :/ | ||
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Reborn58
United States238 Posts
There are less abilities / upgrades for protoss units than the other races, and this leads to a more limited tech path with less for the other races to worry about. This in conjunction with no viable harass unit has really lead to the other 2 races easily being able to hard-counter anything a toss can do. I am, obviously, talking about at the very highest levels where people's skill ceiling is closer to being topped out. With us casual gamers there is still much for us to improve on. But this doesn't take away from the fact that toss is "broken". Not necessarily UP, in my eyes, but just "broken" in that there are very few avenues left to explore. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On August 15 2011 04:23 HolyArrow wrote: Well, to be fair, tdt, I believe that the WG nerf wasn't motivated by Protoss WG timings being to strong vZ, but rather, it was an attempt to fix PvP. Still, many of your other examples hold. I too am tired of Zerg players going "Well, Zerg players figured stuff out, now Protoss players need to do that too!" when they completely ignore patch history. It also seems like whenever we bring up that point, the players who tell us that "Zerg figured stuff out, now Protoss needs to as well" conveniently fail to respond to us -_-;; Still, I have faith in PvZ that Protoss can innovate more. It's the 1-1-1 all-in in PvT that I'm personally worried about. I hope to see some progress made on it soon, and to see that reflected in the upcoming GSL matches. Regardless of motivation it changed the game vs Z and T. You get one round of units later. (What's funny it did little for PvP tough. Last GSL was 100% 4gating. Inca mc, MC huk, and MC hongun.) Anyway thats one less round makes breaking front door of 1/1/1 teching Terran impossible. Since before he had a bunker with 4 marines. And now has a bunker 8 marines and a tank. Similarly, while 4 gate wasnt all that powerful vs a compitant zerg, it still won sometimes and they delayed a bit, now it's basically a loss 100% of the time on a FE zerg. | ||
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
On August 15 2011 05:44 Snackysnacks wrote: You load up the worlds most expensive warp prison. 1 misclick when it gets shot down loses a quarter of your food and all your money. It needs something else. Would be nice if it had a energy biased re-call from units within pylon radius, really small aoe. But, no more into this, since its not the forum to discuss balance really :/ agree, while Zerg can load the entire army with just nydus worm and ovie is already there. Terran can mass drops MM much more effective. Protoss can't use mass recall mothership cuz they're just stupidly slow and hard to get | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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.Johnny
United States16 Posts
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Deleted User 47542
1484 Posts
On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote: Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work. + Show Spoiler + Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops. Shuttles were good in BW because in TvP you usually are able to get zealot bombs off before gols come out, and in general the unit AI makes it hard to chase shuttles effectively. In ZvP the only way to kill them is w/ scourge which the shuttle still can outrun, and shuttle play revolves around having air dominance with corsairs anyways. Warp prisms are definitely underused but really need a hp buff and a cheaper/faster speed upgrade. | ||
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Murkinlol
United States366 Posts
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Cyrak
Canada536 Posts
The main thing that most players don't factor in when they say stuff like this is the army value of the two armies. It's not uncommon for a maxed Protoss army to cost 25-40% more than the Zerg counterparts. Even "expensive" Zerg units like Hydralisks cost less than a Stalker does let alone Roaches and Zerglings. A Zerg maxed on Infestor/Ultra/Broodlord/Corrupter which are pretty much the only units that have cost:food ratios similar to Protoss units can easily stand toe to toe with a well-composed late game Protoss "death ball." | ||
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Kiangani
United States122 Posts
On August 15 2011 06:30 Cyrak wrote: Something that I take issue with that's frequently brought up is the idea that Protoss will always beat Zerg in a 200 vs 200 fight. The main thing that most players don't factor in when they say stuff like this is the army value of the two armies. It's not uncommon for a maxed Protoss army to cost 25-40% more than the Zerg counterparts. Even "expensive" Zerg units like Hydralisks cost less than a Stalker does let alone Roaches and Zerglings. A Zerg maxed on Infestor/Ultra/Broodlord/Corrupter which are pretty much the only units that have cost:food ratios similar to Protoss units can easily stand toe to toe with a well-composed late game Protoss "death ball." The idea that P is always better than Z in a 200 v 200 fight is simply not true anymore, as long as there are a decent number of infestors. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, it's just not true anymore. I really want to see Protosses, including both myself and progamers in tournaments, to actually win games without a balance patch. I just don't know how long it's going to take. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On August 15 2011 05:31 sekritzzz wrote: The biggest problem with the warp prism imo is that you cant mass produce (you can but at the cost of collusus >_>). Whats 4 zealots going to do? most people just pull their scv/drones and kill off your 400mineral worth of zealots. 4 stalkers cant kill workers fast enough. A buff increasing the load of the warp prism would be sick. Lategame warp prism = ownage (at least at mid masters mmr). Attack, warp in a lot of zealots to his main base, take out tech while scaring the shit out of him. In the early-to mid game, warp prism+4 zealots can barely do anything. You don't have charge and it's too much of an investment (I'd rather expo or get more gateways). | ||
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