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On August 13 2011 02:32 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote:Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work. + Show Spoiler +
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
PvT in bw was a mainly mech based terran. marines were virtually non existent, and there were no vikings. goliaths provided only mobile aa. therefore harrassment was alot harder to prevent from terrans perspective, and to stop it completely they had to invest heavily in missile turrets. whereas sc2 they just make a couple of vikings which tear the warp prisms to shreds....or they can just stim some marines and take it out quickly. not to mention storm drops in bw did waaaay more damage, and there is no reaver in sc2. therefore bw harassment was much more successful in general and cost effective. i would like to see more attempts at warp prism use against zerg but it still doesn't take away from the fact the units dropped rarely deal large damage
get warp prism speed, then if it dies it becomes your fault.
if you make terran invest heavy missile turrents in every location and bases, you're getting your WP worth back.
sure, storm drop isn't anything like reaver drop, but it is still massive dmg. Transporting your HT to storm their entire army before you engage or use ti to chase an escaping army. Protect important units from EMP or FG and faster reinforce your army right no the spot.
the harassment option is an additional benefits. Alot of people are talking about the cost inefficient and other silly talks are missing the part where successful drops can kill an entire mineral line in few seconds or force your opponent response to defend an expansion. With how fast WP moves, it'll be your fault for losing those units in the first place.
Now I know I've stated these before, but all I was getting are circular argument back as to why WP is a bad unit. Not yet I have got a poster that specifically tell me the flaws in my scenarios or the major drawback you would get for using WP. Remember this is for late mid/late game play, which I believe WP will be a tremendous powerful tool to use that can win you games if you have the APM to support it.
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On August 13 2011 00:56 msjakofsky wrote:
that's true for terran too, a medivac full of marines is 400 minerals for pure marines. the problem is that a bio army can afford the supply deficiency for medivacs because of better dps and stim and heal, so they're kinda always there. the problem is the nature of combat units for protoss, they're just not efficient if not in a ball. i agree with everything else you said
Toss units from a Warp Prism have the problem of not doing great burst damage and cost/payoff ratios like a medivac drops.
That being said. I don't think Warp Prisms have been used to their full potential. Even White-ra only uses them as drop harass. Their power potential I see comes from exploiting Colo/Stalker cliff walking abilities with the Prism ferrying Sentry/Temps and warping in Zealots /reinforcements straight into an opponent's base and circumventing defenses.
I haven't tried applying it myself but the potential of it does exist . . . Though how practical that strat actually is hasn't been tested.
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Regarding stargate phoenixes vs 1/1/1:
Can't terran simply put up an armory, stop banshee/tank production, mass marine+thor 1 base allin and crush any stargate opener?
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Northern Ireland26480 Posts
I actually like such ideas, but they are difficult to execute without sick mechanics and risky as hell. I mean you can actually pull this off theoretically but I'm just worried that what will happen will be a base race vs Terrans, they'll go "oh he's in my base and I'm forcefielded at the ramp, I'll just go and kill his main"
Will try this later. I'm not some QQing Protoss, I am willing to throw even the kitchen sink into my ladder games
I actually love abusing cliffwalked collosi to snipe mineral lines, pull them back at the first sign of vikings, and blink the stalkers into the oncoming viking counter. It's a nice way to harass and also keep the anti-collosi unit numbers down
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On August 13 2011 07:38 Drowsy wrote:
Regarding stargate phoenixes vs 1/1/1:
Can't terran simply put up an armory, stop banshee/tank production, mass marine+thor 1 base allin and crush any stargate opener?
Yea. It's what my friend does to me when I go stargate against it. Just make 1 thor and you're good to go again.
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On August 13 2011 07:38 Drowsy wrote:
Regarding stargate phoenixes vs 1/1/1:
Can't terran simply put up an armory, stop banshee/tank production, mass marine+thor 1 base allin and crush any stargate opener?
Or they could just make Vikings instead of Banshees.
The other problem is that Stargate doesn't lead up to any kind of area of effect damage. So the Terran can just expand and get Stim/CS, and then kill you before you can get enough Colossi or Storm out.
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On August 13 2011 06:24 ForeverSleep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 06:15 The Doctor wrote:On August 13 2011 05:04 Tossup wrote:On August 13 2011 04:05 The Doctor wrote:
This is why I hate discussing things on TL. There's so many people here and the threads become so large that both sides keep repeating themselves over and over and over again. You can't make any headway into the discussion because we're never allowed to get more than 5 feet beyond the starting line before being sent back to the beginning. It's like an argument taking place between two people with a memory span of 3 minutes. This is partially because there are already 30+ pages of discussion. There are bound to be repeats of the same topics because people aren't going to go through 30 pages worth of ideas. I believe that's exactly what I just said, yes. ok...then what was the point of stating the obvious?
Totally agree.
But that reminds me of a problem with TL.net. So many people post, leading to 30 page threads, so people end up repeating the same discussions over and over again. It's like two people with the memory capacities of TI12s arguing.
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On August 13 2011 06:55 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 02:32 ThePianoDentist wrote:On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote:Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work. + Show Spoiler +
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
PvT in bw was a mainly mech based terran. marines were virtually non existent, and there were no vikings. goliaths provided only mobile aa. therefore harrassment was alot harder to prevent from terrans perspective, and to stop it completely they had to invest heavily in missile turrets. whereas sc2 they just make a couple of vikings which tear the warp prisms to shreds....or they can just stim some marines and take it out quickly. not to mention storm drops in bw did waaaay more damage, and there is no reaver in sc2. therefore bw harassment was much more successful in general and cost effective. i would like to see more attempts at warp prism use against zerg but it still doesn't take away from the fact the units dropped rarely deal large damage get warp prism speed, then if it dies it becomes your fault. if you make terran invest heavy missile turrents in every location and bases, you're getting your WP worth back. sure, storm drop isn't anything like reaver drop, but it is still massive dmg. Transporting your HT to storm their entire army before you engage or use ti to chase an escaping army. Protect important units from EMP or FG and faster reinforce your army right no the spot. the harassment option is an additional benefits. Alot of people are talking about the cost inefficient and other silly talks are missing the part where successful drops can kill an entire mineral line in few seconds or force your opponent response to defend an expansion. With how fast WP moves, it'll be your fault for losing those units in the first place. Now I know I've stated these before, but all I was getting are circular argument back as to why WP is a bad unit. Not yet I have got a poster that specifically tell me the flaws in my scenarios or the major drawback you would get for using WP. Remember this is for late mid/late game play, which I believe WP will be a tremendous powerful tool to use that can win you games if you have the APM to support it.
You are talking about getting a robotics bay, storm and warp prism upgrade. Do you know how late-game we are talking for this to happen? How you even can mention this as mid-game is mind boggling. Do you know how high amount of Vikings Terran usually has at this stage? Losing a prism with 4 HTs just isn't worth it.
Better keep them in the main army and try to win a straight up fight.
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They should just put out those fucking amulet for both race like they did for protoss...
Its to strong
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I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it.
I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?'
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Northern Ireland26480 Posts
The amulet is broken due to the warp-in mechanic. I still don't see why they can't find some kind of halfway solution, for example an upgrade that allows high temps to regenerate energy more quickly over time, but starting from the same initial value
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On August 13 2011 08:16 Ubertron wrote:
The amulet is broken due to the warp-in mechanic. I still don't see why they can't find some kind of halfway solution, for example an upgrade that allows high temps to regenerate energy more quickly over time, but starting from the same initial value
warp still got a delay and ... when u Spawn 15 infestor from larva ... and u got 15 FG ready to use it is the same thing as the HT problem ... Even with the ghost ... I dont even see the difference oO
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KA solution would just have it be that warped in templars wouldn't get the benefit of KA but if you built them out of a Gateway they would.
Tell me that isn't a sexy as fuck idea.
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Northern Ireland26480 Posts
On August 13 2011 08:26 deltamal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 08:16 Ubertron wrote:
The amulet is broken due to the warp-in mechanic. I still don't see why they can't find some kind of halfway solution, for example an upgrade that allows high temps to regenerate energy more quickly over time, but starting from the same initial value warp still got a delay and ... when u Spawn 15 infestor from larva ... and u got 15 FG ready to use it is the same thing as the HT problem ... Even with the ghost ... I dont even see the difference oO
Look, you can warp in to hidden pylons, ANYWHERE in the map and storm instantly with amulet. I'm a Protoss player but even I know that is ridiculous. I figured my suggestion was a neat, easily implementable way to buff HT effectiveness by increasing the amount of energy they will be going into fights with. This is especially critical now as you HAVE to spam feedback on infestors and ghosts, but still have enough left over for at least a few storms
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I think one solution to the underused Warp Prism problem is to make Warp Prism have a separate queue compared to all other units (like a Barracks with a "reactor" EXCEPT one queue slot is for warp prism only, the rest is for all other units but not the warp prism. It's exclusive to each other).
In BW you only needed a few Reavers (massive Reavers wasn't common. Not as common as massing colossus and/or immortals in SC2) which is why Shuttles were seen often especially even with only one Robotics. So a solution could be to make Warp Prism have a separate queue slot for just itself that allows it to be built at the same time as a colossus, observer, or immortal.
KA solution would just have it be that warped in templars wouldn't get the benefit of KA but if you built them out of a Gateway they would.
Yeah that can definitely work.
Honestly though I think Warp Gates need some overhaul (or at least Gateways too).
I think once Warp Gates have been researched, all builds times should be the same as Warp Gates.
For example Zealot with 38 second build time will have only 28 with Warp Gate researched.
That way players can "practically" choose between Warp Gates or regular Gateways (currently why even bother using regular gateways when it has a higher production time, can't reinforce in Pylon radius, and can't reinforce as fast as gateways?).
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On August 11 2011 18:12 shinyA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 11 2011 17:53 Elwar wrote:
I want to sidestep the 1/1/1 or zergs almost certain ability to get a great economic lead and focus on base defence.
This is where I see most protoss struggling badly. Drops.
Drops are killing protoss in the midgame. Protoss has the slowest reactionary units in the game (stimmed units + zerg units, much faster obviously), gateway units in small numbers are terrible against either zerg or terran (sidenote: which is why protoss' harassment ability sucks and/or relies on the opponent making mistakes), and protoss have no magic bullet response like the planetary fortress. Cannons are not the answer, they're expensive, can't cover much area, and are torn down so fast by marauders or roaches to the point where they don't matter unless you build a prohibitive amount. DTs are good at base defence...unless they bring detection and/or scan, in which case they're huuuuuge resource sinks.
Obviously protoss' shitty ability to defend themselves is countered by the army being quite strong when it is actually together and properly utilised, but its becoming harder and harder to get to that point as terrans and zergs learn to harass more effectively. I have no ideal solution, but this is a major problem as I see it.
We saw I believe some protoss (Tails? IIRC) have a bunch of zealots, like 5-6, and an archon at his main base and the terran (Taeja?) simply chose to drop right on top of them and the warpins he knew would happen. Thats 20+ supply of units at ONE base for defence, and they didn't do dick. Umm, I'd say protoss have plenty to deal with drops. With warp-ins, charge zealots, blink stalkers, feedback, protoss actually have a much better answer to drops than either terran or zerg imo. tails got doom dropped and that was his own fault for not having anything spotting it. Any race can lose to something like that if you don't expect it. If he had just gotten 2 observers and kept them in good places that would never have happened. Not really, warp ins are kind of terrible response against T drops. The problem is Terran drops are WAYYY too cost efficient vs Protoss. It takes SO much to deal with a single Terran drop, so we put a ton of resources into stopping the drop that means that we're vulnerable somewhere else. I think you should have to either upgrade medivac heal or drop ability ^_^ As for the 1/1/1 thing, the reason it's so powerful is because of cloak. Not necessarily the spell itself but the threat of it. We HAVE to get detection no matter what, so we have to put the resources into the robo and observers, usually 2. So, what kind of army can we get in time while building a robo and 2 observers ( you get 2 because if you only have one and they do go cloak they can easily pick one off with raven/marine ) ? I think it CAN be stopped but it's incredibly hard to do, and even if we have enough to stop it, Terran can just expand behind it and set up a huge contain with 10 bunkers and turrets outside of our natural.
Cloak isnt the issue in the 1-1-1 build of terran. The issue is that the main ground force of protoss is zealots and stalkers. Using a 1-1-1 build means a raven and PDD prevents most of the damage from the stalkers rendering us powerless in front of them.
I think some of the fixes for the early agression could be easily fixed by removing the PDD start ability of the ravens and lowering their costs a cost thus making them comparable to the observers and adding PDD as a researchable ability. Ghosts are hard counters to protoss' army because the area shield drain is more damage than anything any other units can deal instantly. Therefore, changing the mechanics of EMP to affect a set number of shield (in example, it takes a total of 450 shields or something) starting with the less costly unit might undo the hard counter of our deathballs.
The main issue of protss is that we MUST go gateways no matter what. Unlike a terran that can opt for mech or bio or certain units in their tree, any missing unit in the composition of protss is a hit to its effectiveness.
I think KA nerf was over the top. It could have given less starting energy or remained the same and increasing the cost of a storm.
Protoss air units are good harass very early on but they become useless end game. Carriers are too vulnerable to corruptors and unless theres only a few marines out to kill the interceptors, their damage in nill. Void rays are decent units but theyre costly and the low base damage means you have to overprotect them to dish out decent damage. Pheonixes are nice but they cannot hit ground and lift makes them stationnary and very vulnerable to just about anything that shoots up.
Then we have the Robotics units. Immortals and warp prism, probably the most underrated units. People complain about the immortals because they suck vs mass lings/marines. However, these are the same people who dont get shield upgrades. With shield upgrades and guardian shield, the issue of marines is inexistant and zerglings are easily handled by a few zealots.
Warp prism are nice to move around with your main army as a n alternative to pylons. If you get their speed upgrade, they allow you to instantly reinforce your army anywhere on the map. I do think they need to be more durable however. Colossus are nice when your opponents have not made a tech switch but they become targeted down so fast late game they barely get a few blows in.
I think the next step in protss gameplay is incorporating more shield upgrades and field immortals more often in a protss army composition along with more common abuse of hallucinations
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I like the idea of Goldfish, like having 1 production spot in the robotics facility exclusively for the Warp-prism!
That way we poor protoss wouldn't be forced to wait another minute for our Colossus!
Nice thoughts, though!
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I've personally felt for a long time that early game protoss units are really quite weak once past the initial stages, partially because their upgrades are so hard to get. Getting stim, shield and concussive shell for Terran is pretty easy, roach speed and ling speed for zerg is also fairly easy compared to getting charge for protoss, though blink isn't completely out of reach.
That period of time between "tier 1" and "tier 1.5" (or whatever you want to call it) just feels really rough, especially with expansions going down around then and all that fun stuff.
When warpgates got nerfed without much of a buff to gateway units, that timing just got harder to defend.
Eh. Dunno how it'll pan out, I don't see any real innovation possible personally (because of warpgate research) but there might be something the protoss players can do. All the things protoss used to be considered "imba" for seem to mostly be gone--warp in storms no longer exist, so high templar are just useful, not great lategame, deathball is not as effective since zerg started using more infestors, collosus are not really able to be snuck in without anti-air being constructed because of how long they take to build.
Honestly, I hope Blizzard does something about it, but there might be some solution w/o a buff/nerf.
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On August 13 2011 09:08 DeckOneBell wrote:
I've personally felt for a long time that early game protoss units are really quite weak once past the initial stages, partially because their upgrades are so hard to get. Getting stim, shield and concussive shell for Terran is pretty easy, roach speed and ling speed for zerg is also fairly easy compared to getting charge for protoss, though blink isn't completely out of reach.
That period of time between "tier 1" and "tier 1.5" (or whatever you want to call it) just feels really rough, especially with expansions going down around then and all that fun stuff.
When warpgates got nerfed without much of a buff to gateway units, that timing just got harder to defend.
Eh. Dunno how it'll pan out, I don't see any real innovation possible personally (because of warpgate research) but there might be something the protoss players can do. All the things protoss used to be considered "imba" for seem to mostly be gone--warp in storms no longer exist, so high templar are just useful, not great lategame, deathball is not as effective since zerg started using more infestors, collosus are not really able to be snuck in without anti-air being constructed because of how long they take to build.
Honestly, I hope Blizzard does something about it, but there might be some solution w/o a buff/nerf.
I am not sure sure what you mean by charge being out of reach. If you can get blink you can get charge and the building for it is part of our higher tech tree. If you meant the cost of these upgrades, you are correct but getting isn't much of an issue especially if you chronoboost them.
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On August 13 2011 08:16 Grapesludge wrote:
I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it.
I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?'
I find it insulting to top Protoss players that you think they can't play a macro game. I think someone should close this thread already please..
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EPT
