EPT
ZvT FTW !Protoss in GSL August - Page 32
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Cosmos
Belgium1077 Posts
ZvT FTW ! | ||
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graniten
Sweden36 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:00 Cosmos wrote: There was a PvP final last season, no more protoss in code A makes the GSL better ! ZvT FTW !And we can pray to god no zvz finals comes in the near future. zvp tvp is the most fun matchups to watch. | ||
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msjakofsky
1169 Posts
Scouting I think is the issue with 1base 1-1-1 allins. However, I am not sure about non-all in 1-1-1s like the one MVP featured against MC. He did not go for the kill but for a hard contain after a 1rax cc and it looked really scary. This variant is still pretty new so a solution is far from obvious, but after watching that game I thought that 1) MC's contain bust was very bad and 2) there was a lot of room for exploiting mobility i.e. warprisms... We'll have to wait for more information here... i'm not sure what MC could've done to break that. he was contained to 2 bases while MVP macroed the crap out of himself in the background. MVP had like 6 bunkers full of marines, a crapload of tanks and banshees and raven too. He was also constantly scouting with his group of banshees. He had all those tanks for coloxen and stalkers, like 30 marines in bunkers, making immortals pretty much obsolete, and a banshee sniping squad sniping and scouting stuff left and right. meanwhile having better economy to support anything that came to mvp's mind You could literally see that MC is confused in that match, he doesn't have a clue how to handle it, and he is arguably the best protoss on the planet. The only thing i could think of is not letting him to set up the siege line with that many bunkers. But that's pretty much a very little window of opportunity to handle the situation | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:16 msjakofsky wrote: i'm not sure what MC could've done to break that. he was contained to 2 bases while MVP macroed the crap out of himself in the background. MVP had like 6 bunkers full of marines, a crapload of tanks and banshees and raven too. He was also constantly scouting with his group of banshees. He had all those tanks for coloxen and stalkers, like 30 marines in bunkers, making immortals pretty much obsolete, and a banshee sniping squad sniping and scouting stuff left and right. meanwhile having better economy to support anything that came to mvp's mind You could literally see that MC is confused in that match, he doesn't have a clue how to handle it, and he is arguably the best protoss on the planet. The only thing i could think of is not letting him to set up the siege line with that many bunkers. But that's pretty much a very little window of opportunity to handle the situation Even if MC did try to kill him before the bunkers went up, MVP could have taken a leaf from TvZ's book, and leapfrogged tanks and set up the contain more slowly. It would have made very little difference, as MC had 200/200 when he went to bust out anyway, so MVP could afford to be slower. | ||
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Eishi_Ki
Korea (South)1667 Posts
On August 12 2011 23:40 Wipples wrote: I think the warp prism makes up for that by not having to hold onto any units when in transit unless you want to collosus or immortal drop. If you lose it, it's just a warp prism, if it makes it to the base you have the potential of however many warpgates worth of units in your base. I don't think the problem is the warp prism, toss just doesn't have a unit that can move/attack and just generally deal damage effectively in a harassing role. Edit: Except DTs if they aren't spotted. It's no where near as simple as this, when you're talking about Protoss, the whole is very much better than the sum of it's parts. Gateway units are expensive, with 4 gates unloading from a Prism, that's at least 400 mins for pure Zealot, 500 for Stalkers. Not only is that money pooled to dump into a drop which WILL be cleaned up easily (Z'lings or MnM), those resources are deducted from your total army size and the T or Z just rolls you. Using Zealots and Stalkers will never be an effective harassment method (relative to Z or T counterparts). This leaves HT's which cannot be warped in (due to lack of KA) and again take away from the army. DT's are out of the equation because they're a piss poor replacement to their BW counterparts due to the readiness of available detection and the increased detection range static defences and scan have received. Colo pointless, one per Prism to do essentially bugger all and Immos might kill what? A Depot? You obviously wouldn't use them vs a Z. TL:DR Prism's are good for Storm drops and that alone and even then, their utilisation takes away from the P army as a whole. | ||
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sopas
509 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:00 Cosmos wrote: There was a PvP final last season, no more protoss in code A makes the GSL better ! ZvT FTW !i dont see whats so good about marines chasing birds most of the time in most games tho. as much variety as possible would be ideal ofc and if any race is underrepresented it's less awesome - still awesome tho | ||
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msjakofsky
1169 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:23 SeaSwift wrote: Even if MC did try to kill him before the bunkers went up, MVP could have taken a leaf from TvZ's book, and leapfrogged tanks and set up the contain more slowly. It would have made very little difference, as MC had 200/200 when he went to bust out anyway, so MVP could afford to be slower. you're right, i was just thinking, when did MC have even the slightest possibility to prevent being utterly fucked. because after the bunkers went up i can't think anything he could do. this seemed like a slower but even more effective variant of 1-1-1. maybe the only possibility is to attack the terran before he macros up to that point and catch the tanks unsieged, but that seems too unstable to me for a reliant solution the situation comes to mind when zerg was struggling against the protoss deathball and the protosses kept replying "don't let the protoss get to that point" (not exactly the best answer). and then fungal got buffed to arguably overpovered status | ||
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msjakofsky
1169 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:42 Eishi_Ki wrote: It's no where near as simple as this, when you're talking about Protoss, the whole is very much better than the sum of it's parts. Gateway units are expensive, with 4 gates unloading from a Prism, that's at least 400 mins for pure Zealot, 500 for Stalkers. Not only is that money pooled to dump into a drop which WILL be cleaned up easily (Z'lings or MnM), those resources are deducted from your total army size and the T or Z just rolls you. that's true for terran too, a medivac full of marines is 400 minerals for pure marines. the problem is that a bio army can afford the supply deficiency for medivacs because of better dps and stim and heal, so they're kinda always there. the problem is the nature of combat units for protoss, they're just not efficient if not in a ball. i agree with everything else you said | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1603 Posts
On August 11 2011 14:41 spawnzero wrote: Note: I don't want this to turn into a balance/imbalance thread, just discussion purely on top tier play(ers) right now. Also, if there is already a thread like this feel free to close this one. So I've been watching as many matches I can over the past few days of GSL, specifically those of my race, protoss, and I can't help but begin to wonder a few things after watching the games and looking at results across the board. (Yes I realize we're only 1 round into the season and I know it's early) There are a few statistics I find somewhat alarming as far as trends between races go. The first of which probably stands out to many of you already which is that already, MC and Alicia, widely considered two of the top 3 protoss in the world, are into U/D matches. Out of the six remaining toss (Huk, Killer, Trickster, HongUn, Genius, and Puzzle) I see maybe three or four of them making it out if we're lucky, and the odds of all five or six being slim to none due to Huk and Killer sharing a group with Bomber. Assuming two of them make it out that still leaves a fairly disproportionate number of protoss in the round of 16. Now moving on to Code A... This scene could even be considered more grim than the one in Code S currently with only two protoss making it out of the round of 32, one of which was mandatory because they played another protoss (JYP/anypro). After tonight, I could very well see Tassadar being the only one left alive as JYP plays DRG soon. It's also again worth noting again that like the two mentioned earlier in Code S, many of these protoss players are not even unknowns by any means with former Code S players like Inca, vanvanth, and anypro. Not to mention well respected foreigners in Naniwa and Sase. All in all, what do you guys think of these stats on protoss? Purely coincidence? Or has the race noticeably fallen behind? Keep your comments legitimate. TLDR; Protoss is struggling in GSL this season. + Show Spoiler + Update: JYP is the toss savior of Code A beating DRG!! xD Although like posted further down in this thread, both his wins were due largely because of massive risks taken by DRG (6pool game 2 and gold base game 3) Update #2: Tassadar down to Yoda.. Only JYP remains in Code A Group stages are fun to watch, but are fucking terrible to the great players. As far as being worried about toss dropping, there are a ton of terrans in Code S, the best zergs are in Code S consistently, that mixture with just a few really good Protoss in Code S will lead to there probably only being one protoss in top 8. It happens I'm sure there was a season where there was only one zerg in that spot as well. | ||
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Neelia
Germany599 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:16 msjakofsky wrote: i'm not sure what MC could've done to break that. he was contained to 2 bases while MVP macroed the crap out of himself in the background. MVP had like 6 bunkers full of marines, a crapload of tanks and banshees and raven too. He was also constantly scouting with his group of banshees. He had all those tanks for coloxen and stalkers, like 30 marines in bunkers, making immortals pretty much obsolete, and a banshee sniping squad sniping and scouting stuff left and right. meanwhile having better economy to support anything that came to mvp's mind You could literally see that MC is confused in that match, he doesn't have a clue how to handle it, and he is arguably the best protoss on the planet. The only thing i could think of is not letting him to set up the siege line with that many bunkers. But that's pretty much a very little window of opportunity to handle the situation MVP did a 1 rax expand and got double gas and fast tech immediately after the command center went down. He had just 1 bunker with very few marines until the first tank came out. MVP did a ultra greedy build and would have even died to light pressure. MC played (too) passive and got punished for it. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote: Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work. + Show Spoiler + Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops. PvT in bw was a mainly mech based terran. marines were virtually non existent, and there were no vikings. goliaths provided only mobile aa. therefore harrassment was alot harder to prevent from terrans perspective, and to stop it completely they had to invest heavily in missile turrets. whereas sc2 they just make a couple of vikings which tear the warp prisms to shreds....or they can just stim some marines and take it out quickly. not to mention storm drops in bw did waaaay more damage, and there is no reaver in sc2. therefore bw harassment was much more successful in general and cost effective. i would like to see more attempts at warp prism use against zerg but it still doesn't take away from the fact the units dropped rarely deal large damage | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On August 13 2011 02:12 Neelia wrote: MVP did a 1 rax expand and got double gas and fast tech immediately after the command center went down. He had just 1 bunker with very few marines until the first tank came out. MVP did a ultra greedy build and would have even died to light pressure. MC played (too) passive and got punished for it. Bullshit. MVP got a full scout of MC's base and there was nothing MC could have done about it. If MVP had scouted a 4gate or similar pressure build, he obviously would have not teched up and taken the gases and would have put down bunkers and protected himself and won. MC playing greedily was the best decision he could have made. In fact, the earlier the Nexus the more chances of victory against most 1-1-1 builds or variants. Besides, I would contend that MVP played at least as passive until the 1-1-1 push as MC, if not more so. Why, then, should his push be strong enough to beat MC? | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
On August 12 2011 00:52 Huggerz wrote: DTs, HTs, Sentries, or just zealots, are all completely viable harass units, maybe not as cost effective as hellions or infestors etc. but protoss units cost more in general anyway, what do you expect... Saying protoss doesn't have a unit for taking out mineral lines fast is just ridiculous. They do, it's just you never see protoss players using them because they are obsessed with massing a ball of doom and splitting off units is an alien concept to most protoss, except for defending drops Do you really want something that can harass quickly, long build time, plenty of gas and dies quickly? Have reapers if you want them, majority of Terran players wouldn't notice they were gone What to do I expect? What do I expect? I expect more expensive units to do more damage, last longer, and/or be able to kill more stuff. Otherwise, how in the hell is the Protoss race supposed to compete? In BW the theory was the expensive tier 3 stuff made up for other things, plus gateway armies were decent anyway. Now, gateway armies are the weakest by far, and tier 3 protoss is often weaker then tier 3 the other guys?! And costs more and takes longer to get to???? It doesn't make any sense. Did you say "maybe not as cost effective" as hellions or infestors? Yeah, no kidding they aren't as cost effective. That's the problem. Protoss harassment is a joke, even Blizzard finally decided it was so bad they'd do something about it. | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
On August 13 2011 02:32 ThePianoDentist wrote: PvT in bw was a mainly mech based terran. marines were virtually non existent, and there were no vikings. goliaths provided only mobile aa. therefore harrassment was alot harder to prevent from terrans perspective, and to stop it completely they had to invest heavily in missile turrets. whereas sc2 they just make a couple of vikings which tear the warp prisms to shreds....or they can just stim some marines and take it out quickly. not to mention storm drops in bw did waaaay more damage, and there is no reaver in sc2. therefore bw harassment was much more successful in general and cost effective. i would like to see more attempts at warp prism use against zerg but it still doesn't take away from the fact the units dropped rarely deal large damage Even worse, Terran harass got even better... reapers, hellions, BFH, banshees, cloaked banshees, medivac drops and probably more. All of those are potentially game ending harassments. Zerg also got better... baneling drops, faster speedling runbys, infestors, and auto-magic boxing mutas. All can kill workers or nexuses quick. Protoss? Lost reaver. Storm got weaker. Dark templars cost another expensive building. Zerg and Terran anti-air is better so warp prisms die instantly if spotted. Protoss did gain warp-in... but that's it. | ||
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The Doctor
Canada6 Posts
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Tossup
United States208 Posts
On August 13 2011 04:05 The Doctor wrote: This is why I hate discussing things on TL. There's so many people here and the threads become so large that both sides keep repeating themselves over and over and over again. You can't make any headway into the discussion because we're never allowed to get more than 5 feet beyond the starting line before being sent back to the beginning. It's like an argument taking place between two people with a memory span of 3 minutes. This is partially because there are already 30+ pages of discussion. There are bound to be repeats of the same topics because people aren't going to go through 30 pages worth of ideas. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On August 12 2011 20:20 MrSweetNess wrote: IMO, it's simply the players. Alicia and MC are meant to be the great Protoss hope, but they are slumping. I think Puzzle doesn't get as much credit as he deserves, he is a very good Protoss. IIRC there are the same amount of Protoss and Zerg in GSL Code S, both with 8. I just think that the Zergs are better than their Protoss opponents. I also think that you will see a contrast if you look at the foreigner scene. Most of the best foreign players are Protoss (Naniwa, Huk, Socke, SaSe, White-Ra Kiwikaki and with ToD coming up). Seems to me it is just a case of the Korean Protoss not being as 'figured out' as the other races. Naniwa and SaSe got 2-0d out of the Code A ro32 by mediocre zergs, Kiwikaki does nothing, ToD does nothing besides beat Alicia in PvP (one game being a four gate defense and another being a hidden nexus), Socke couldn't compete in Korea, White-Ra could not compete in Korea. So no, it's not "Korean" protoss, it's just protoss. | ||
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The Doctor
Canada6 Posts
On August 13 2011 05:04 Tossup wrote: This is partially because there are already 30+ pages of discussion. There are bound to be repeats of the same topics because people aren't going to go through 30 pages worth of ideas. I believe that's exactly what I just said, yes. | ||
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Recoil
United States276 Posts
On August 13 2011 03:34 RemrafGrez wrote: Even worse, Terran harass got even better... reapers, hellions, BFH, banshees, cloaked banshees, medivac drops and probably more. All of those are potentially game ending harassments. Zerg also got better... baneling drops, faster speedling runbys, infestors, and auto-magic boxing mutas. All can kill workers or nexuses quick. Protoss? Lost reaver. Storm got weaker. Dark templars cost another expensive building. Zerg and Terran anti-air is better so warp prisms die instantly if spotted. Protoss did gain warp-in... but that's it. So I guess much more mobile siege units in collosi instead of the slow more difficult to use reaver is nothing also VRs can be pretty effective and are much better than LOL Scouts | ||
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ForeverSleep
Canada920 Posts
On August 13 2011 06:15 The Doctor wrote: I believe that's exactly what I just said, yes. ok...then what was the point of stating the obvious? | ||
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