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On August 12 2011 20:05 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
Wow asd tried to do the 1-1-1 to puzzle in the GSTL.. and he made phoenixes? I don't know if this is a breakthrough because asd lost 3 banshees for free and then puzzle still only just held it with probes and what not. Puzzle had expanded though.
It's ridiculous how much the 1-1-1 is being used in the GSL..
If asd wouldn't have harassed with his banshees and lose them to phx, asd would have crushed puzzle...Harassment isnt needed in a 111 push, doing it is taking the risk to lose ur banshees...
Basically asd made a huge mistake, that why puzzle held...
But yeah i always thought that stargate tech is the best choice against 111...MAYBE Void ray (or phx if no raven) plus chargelots could hold this...It will take practice tho
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I've read this thread from the first post to the last since it was created and come to the following conclusion:
What the fuck are we doing here? Do we really need to convince Gold Terrans that 1-1-1 is too strong? Do we need to explain to an off-racing Diamond Terran why Carriers and Warp Prisms are not the solution? Do we change anything by stating facts, getting trolled and start raging?
I guess we just start praying.
Btw: Puzzle GSTL posts INC.
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On August 12 2011 20:10 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:48 TheSilverfox wrote:Regarding the 1-1-1 build. This is what the coach of SlayerS (Cella) have to say about it. You know the team with the most top Terran players in the world: "When a Protoss stops a 1/1/1 Push, it's not because the Protoss played well. It's because the Terran made a mistake!" - http://twitter.com/OrangeMilkis/status/101837844032663552And we also have IMMVP which I'm not for sure if he's joking or not  "There needs to be a rule where you get disqualified if you use 1/1/1" - http://twitter.com/OrangeMilkis/status/101841926554259456I'm not talking about imbalance but when the coach of the team with the best Terran players in the world says that this push is really bloody damn hard I do believe him. Uh huh, that's why SlayerS got 3-killed by TWO protosses (SangHo and HongUn). I love Cella but people need to stop taking everything he says so seriously. Last time he jokingly tweeted he was no longer coach and there was an entire thread popping out blaming and slandering SlayerS_Jessica. That was bad. And Puzzle just held a variation of 1-1-1 a few minutes ago.
It's entirely map dependent. On some maps it's the best build if the protoss expands at all. There's no way to safely expand against it without just dying convincingly. It forces you to stay on one base for a long time. Then if they just make a command center and keep on massing up, they win.
I'm not saying it's unstoppable, but it's insanely good. Also, if you are referencing the recent game puzzle just won - he got 3 free banshees, a free tank, and he bought 1 and a half minutes of time. He also immediately stopped probe production, had more supply, AND had to use probes. This doesn't happen 90 percent of the time in pro games when this build is used.
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IMO, it's simply the players. Alicia and MC are meant to be the great Protoss hope, but they are slumping. I think Puzzle doesn't get as much credit as he deserves, he is a very good Protoss. IIRC there are the same amount of Protoss and Zerg in GSL Code S, both with 8. I just think that the Zergs are better than their Protoss opponents.
I also think that you will see a contrast if you look at the foreigner scene. Most of the best foreign players are Protoss (Naniwa, Huk, Socke, SaSe, White-Ra Kiwikaki and with ToD coming up). Seems to me it is just a case of the Korean Protoss not being as 'figured out' as the other races.
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On August 12 2011 20:20 MrSweetNess wrote:
IMO, it's simply the players. Alicia and MC are meant to be the great Protoss hope, but they are slumping. I think Puzzle doesn't get as much credit as he deserves, he is a very good Protoss. IIRC there are the same amount of Protoss and Zerg in GSL Code S, both with 8. I just think that the Zergs are better than their Protoss opponents.
I also think that you will see a contrast if you look at the foreigner scene. Most of the best foreign players are Protoss (Naniwa, Huk, Socke, SaSe, White-Ra Kiwikaki and with ToD coming up). Seems to me it is just a case of the Korean Protoss not being as 'figured out' as the other races.
I respect your opinion, and I don't know if I agree or not honestly. I think the Korean zergs are fantastic players, but I think MC and Alicia are also fantastic players. The reason you see the difference in foreigners is because the foreign scene doesn't have as many good zergs. This is not really debatable. I think MC and Alicia are both as good as any zerg on the planet, maybe other than Nestea. They are losing to terrans mostly and not zergs.
The argument that the protoss top level players aren't as good just doesn't really hold ground in my opinion. I don't know if there is an imbalance, but right now protoss is definitely weak in non-mirror matchups. I think the protoss players will eventually figure out how to deal with some of the problems in their play, just as zerg players did (even though they also got a lot of help with buffs). I think there might be a buff or some sort of change to encourage more experimentation with a variety of units, however - in case losing everything isn't motivation enough lol.
I just wish this logic applied to back when zergs complained about everything (even though I guess they still do).
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I feel the accesibility of Templars compared to Infestors and Ghosts could be a problem, and is also one of the reasons P's seem to have problems holding off fast mass marine-like attacks. Templars would be great against the marines and banshees, but they just take very long to get, and don't come with their signature damage spells like Infestors and Ghosts (to a different degree since EMP is a bit different). A lot of the trouble in P holding off T's all-in's seem to be not having any AoE effect available early on.
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well tbh MC is the only korean protoss player who i see as reliable and great in all match-ups. however when you take the risk of picking mvp into your group..
but meh, code A last season was a pvp final. last time people were saying protoss suck etc strategies shifted, naniwa won MLG and suddenly it seemed like protoss dominance.
people draw conclusions from too little. with the element of random and strategic shifts, most of the balance calls people make are pretty baseless.
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Well the protoss filled groups haven't played. Even though + Show Spoiler +you might think that MC and Alicia should make it out of the group cause they are considered to be one of the stronger P players.
Something that I got very impressed by was + Show Spoiler +JYP's play vs DRG, I liked what I saw and I hope to see more from him
But I think protoss needs to figure out some things. Especially now when the game is evolving around counter attacks and harassment and Toss needs to figure out how they can harass. + Show Spoiler +Like JYP did (wich was amazing to see)
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Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?...
Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work.
+ Show Spoiler +
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
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I think that Protoss is currently just going back to what it always was, a race with thinnest margins for error. We have very strong but also very expensive units, so you can NEVER lose a fight (of course unless you happen to be very far ahead economically). We live or die by our force fields, cannot 1a even with our t1 units (stupid zealots, stay in front!) and almost always need aoe to survive mid-game. I always remember a quote from Idra back in the beta/early release, when he thought pvz was balanced (hard to imagine him saying that today ). Paraphrasing, "Protoss is easy to pick up, but the hardest race to master." If you can't handle being fragile and depending on smallest things for the whole game, you shouldn't play toss.
Now onto matchups:
PvZ.
I feel the matchup started to swing in Z favor even before the infestor buff, with the (re)discovery of the power of lings. In the beta, TLO showed the strength of ling/infestor/ultra compositions against both T and P. His dismantling of Whitera with run-bys on desert oasis basically made blizzard change the map. However, for some reason, Idras macro roach/hydra won over the ling strats and dominated Z play for a long time. It was the Spanishiwa Ice Fisher build that put lings and harass back on the map, foreshadowing a similar switch in the metagame in Korea as well.
Now, I reference Spanishiwa because I think that the discussion of how to defeat his build is very informative of how to play in the current PvZ metagame. The key is not to think of how to 'pressure' the zerg early, but how to take your third and fourth bases safely and stay on par economically through the midgame. This means playing defensively for a much longer time than a protoss is used to. For me, I base my PvZ on Huks play: expand of 1-3 gates, go up to 6-7 gates and start sharking around a bit, add blink and robo for immortals and take a third, then tech to HT. With this approach, you have a high unit count early on that you usually use for defending, but can also use to all in if you see the zerg being too greedy. The key is to stay safe until you reach HT + storm tech, which is probably the best unit you can have vs Z. HTs are good vs everything but roach, which you can kill with blink stalker/immortal combo. Using the most popular alternative , the stargate pressure, is a much bigger gamble. If you don't do significant damage with voids, you leave yourself unable to defend any of the many counterattacks that the zerg can throw back at you due to a big lack of basic units. Heck, even if you manage to stop that third base from going up you may still easily die to mass ling drop ala DRG/Morrow. The downside of the defensive mass gateway style is that you set yourself up to win in the late game, as that is when your tech+economy starts giving you an edge. This necessarily means having to learn how to deal with broodlord/infestor compositions and mass bling drops, so no ragequits as soon as you scout a greater spire 
PvZ TLDR: I agree with Idras statements from the last inside the game - if toss plays defensively, using mass blink stalkers and HTs fueled by a strong multibase economy, he can beat zerg on even ground.
PvT.
The classic way that the matchup is played is very fairly balanced. It may be harder for toss through the midgame as it is easier to do drops than to defend them, but it is a skill issue, not a balance one. The 1-1-1 thing that cropped up again recently is the big problem atm, but also its not a new strat, it is as old as the GSL at least - I think it was Polt who showed it first at GSL OS1. I believe that the reason for its strong resurgence in the last month or so is the delayed scouting that the standard 1gate expand suffers from. In this build, the robo usually comes after 3-4 gates and a nexus with only stalker pokes used for scouting which cannot tell you anything more than how many marines are there. By the time the observer reaches the terran base, the 1-1-1 is pretty much ready to push.
I suggest two options. First, go back to a safer gate robo gate opening. As I write this, ZENEXPuzzle demonstrated that going back to this old favorite gives you enough time after scout to prepare for the 1-1-1 push in any way you want (he went phoenixes). This does make your nexus slower, but we can live with that. Second, hallucination scouting with gate only expands. Instead of building a robo after gates and nexus, just chrono out hallucination right after warpgate and scout with phoenix. Hallucination is cheaper than robo+obs, but more importantly comes out much faster. This works well for me because I rarely use the robo for anything other than observers in pvt and I like to open with a bunch of sentries anyway (the 2gas 1gate FE, MC style). Once you scout with the phoenix, you should still have enough time to add a robo or forge if you see cloak banshee at normal times.
Scouting I think is the issue with 1base 1-1-1 allins. However, I am not sure about non-all in 1-1-1s like the one MVP featured against MC. He did not go for the kill but for a hard contain after a 1rax cc and it looked really scary. This variant is still pretty new so a solution is far from obvious, but after watching that game I thought that 1) MC's contain bust was very bad and 2) there was a lot of room for exploiting mobility i.e. warprisms... We'll have to wait for more information here...
PvT TLDR. 1-1-1 1base allin is an old build that requires a toss to scout early to prepare properly. The current 1gate fe standard pvt build does not produce the observer early enough to scout it properly. One should either go earlier robo (1gate 1robo) or try to scout with hallucination.
TLDR for the post. Recent changes in the metagame remind us that protoss is a fragile race, probably the least forgiving of mistakes of all races. This is nothing new, its just the way the race is designed. Current troubles will, as before, be overcome by practice and adaptation of builds. I think this has already happened in PvZ where toss QQ already seems somewhat outdated. In PvT, 1-1-1 looks very strong but it is defendable with proper preparation, meaning earlier scouting is probably required.
Finally, thank you to anyone who read this way too long post . I am as frustrated with current state of toss as anyone else, so I just felt like consolidating my thoughts in written words
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On August 12 2011 20:30 Loodah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 20:20 MrSweetNess wrote:
IMO, it's simply the players. Alicia and MC are meant to be the great Protoss hope, but they are slumping. I think Puzzle doesn't get as much credit as he deserves, he is a very good Protoss. IIRC there are the same amount of Protoss and Zerg in GSL Code S, both with 8. I just think that the Zergs are better than their Protoss opponents.
I also think that you will see a contrast if you look at the foreigner scene. Most of the best foreign players are Protoss (Naniwa, Huk, Socke, SaSe, White-Ra Kiwikaki and with ToD coming up). Seems to me it is just a case of the Korean Protoss not being as 'figured out' as the other races. I respect your opinion, and I don't know if I agree or not honestly. I think the Korean zergs are fantastic players, but I think MC and Alicia are also fantastic players. The reason you see the difference in foreigners is because the foreign scene doesn't have as many good zergs. This is not really debatable. I think MC and Alicia are both as good as any zerg on the planet, maybe other than Nestea. They are losing to terrans mostly and not zergs. The argument that the protoss top level players aren't as good just doesn't really hold ground in my opinion. I don't know if there is an imbalance, but right now protoss is definitely weak in non-mirror matchups. I think the protoss players will eventually figure out how to deal with some of the problems in their play, just as zerg players did (even though they also got a lot of help with buffs). I think there might be a buff or some sort of change to encourage more experimentation with a variety of units, however - in case losing everything isn't motivation enough lol. I just wish this logic applied to back when zergs complained about everything (even though I guess they still do).
I totally agree that MC and Alicia are as good as (probably even better than) most Zergs, but my main point is the other Protosses around. Like in this GSL where MC had to play Mvp who is a god, and got cheesed out by Noblesse, and Alicia got allined twice and got kicked out. What other Protosses are good enough to match with the rest? I'm not saying there is a complete lack of Protoss talent, I'm just saying that in my opinion, there are only about 4 capable of making it deep into a GSL, and if upsets like MC and Alicia going to the up/downs happen, you get a skewed number of Protoss advancing
If you take into consideration that probably only one of Huk or Killer will get through cause they have Bomber in that group and Puzzle is pretty favoured to get through. So that is 2 through, the others are Hongun, Trickster and Genius, who are good, but not great. Whereas look at Terran. If Mvp and Bomber lose, there is still MMA, Polt, Byun, Top and Nada. Zerg would look very similar to Protoss at the moment if say, NesTea and Losira both unexpectedly fell to up/downs, there is July and CoCa that might be able to go deep, but not a great deal of players there
I guess what I am trying to say (and kind of failing at saying) is that the pool of Protosses isn't deep enough that if the 2 best get allined out of GSL, it looks very bad for Protoss, and hence why he have this thread.
I don't know though, I could be completely wrong, just my opinion
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On August 12 2011 16:28 CellTech wrote:
Also, the only reason the 1-1-1 hasnt been around for a while isn't because Protoss figured it out. People just saw Rain 1 basing and associated it with cheese, and then you looked at MVP and Jinro playing macro style and decimating their opponents. Obviously the general player base will mimic what the pros are doing and what they are successful with.
My "theorycraft" tells me that a super early double gas into chargelot/HT(solely for feedback) into archons works wonder against 1-1-1. However, put into practice I haven't done as well :/
It's like I'm allin-ing to Defend by blind countering. And if they early expo'd I usually fell behind in macro at this point, or if their banshees have cloak I'm also toast because I don't have much money to spare for detection.
I have been blindly doing this every PvT for the past few months. Its works if the terran is passive or a worse play then yourself..... If everyone starts doing this to hold the 1-1-1 push terrans will revert to getting cloak with their banshee poke and you will die. Whenever I go twilight council I cross my fingers that there is no cloak or your dead since forge comes out late....
The thing about terran allins is they are so versatile with the PDD, banshee, mass marine, tanks and ghost that there is no way to prepare for everything and terran is hard to scout without going robo.
One thing unexplored I believe is hallucinate against it. What sucks is with so much gas in sentries is your overall DPS sucks.......
I've found in most PvT if the terran is passive or his harass does little damage that once the game goes 20+ mins the toss in pretty hard to beat. Terran units are not the best late game but there is no doubt that Toss is UP in the early game with its predictable tech paths and how GW units suck without their respective upgrades......
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On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote:Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work. + Show Spoiler +
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
Read the damn thread. It's been discussed to death how harassment simply isn't cost effective for Protoss. And no, you are just straight up wrong in saying that the Shuttle was as weak as the Warp Prism.
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The thing I don't get is how 4gate was considered too strong, but 1-1-1 isn't. Even if there is a theoretical way to hold 1-1-1, it seems that the build is disproportionately effective for the skill and apm required, which makes it imbalanced.
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On August 12 2011 23:24 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 20:53 enecateReAP wrote:Protoss just aren't using all the tools of their race, where are the drops that were essential in brood war?... Shuttle was just as weak in brood war, but you still made it work. + Show Spoiler +
Puzzle beat Leenock today when he was SERIOUSLY far behind with lots of drops.
Read the damn thread. It's been discussed to death how harassment simply isn't cost effective for Protoss. And no, you are just straight up wrong in saying that the Shuttle was as weak as the Warp Prism.
I think the warp prism makes up for that by not having to hold onto any units when in transit unless you want to collosus or immortal drop. If you lose it, it's just a warp prism, if it makes it to the base you have the potential of however many warpgates worth of units in your base.
I don't think the problem is the warp prism, toss just doesn't have a unit that can move/attack and just generally deal damage effectively in a harassing role.
Edit: Except DTs if they aren't spotted.
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On August 12 2011 20:10 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:48 TheSilverfox wrote:Regarding the 1-1-1 build. This is what the coach of SlayerS (Cella) have to say about it. You know the team with the most top Terran players in the world: "When a Protoss stops a 1/1/1 Push, it's not because the Protoss played well. It's because the Terran made a mistake!" - http://twitter.com/OrangeMilkis/status/101837844032663552And we also have IMMVP which I'm not for sure if he's joking or not "There needs to be a rule where you get disqualified if you use 1/1/1" - http://twitter.com/OrangeMilkis/status/101841926554259456I'm not talking about imbalance but when the coach of the team with the best Terran players in the world says that this push is really bloody damn hard I do believe him. Uh huh, that's why SlayerS got 3-killed by TWO protosses (SangHo and HongUn). I love Cella but people need to stop taking everything he says so seriously. Last time he jokingly tweeted he was no longer coach and there was an entire thread popping out blaming and slandering SlayerS_Jessica. That was bad. And Puzzle just held a variation of 1-1-1 a few minutes ago.
You're a moron if you don't think protoss is weak right now.
Protoss is doing horribly overall and it's blatantly obvious. Anyone who refuses to believe so is just ignorant.
Pointing out rare cases where protoss has done well in the past month isn't a very strong argument by the way. Either protosses will figure something out soon or they will get buffed, so i'd quit your complaining and prepare.
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Hei guys, i just read most part of that topic and i play protoss too. I don't have the impunity to say that i might have a solution, or that p is actually fair against terran. 111 is still one of the madest build ever against a protoss. But i would like to know what you guys think about a 1 gate, Stargate, Robotic, 2 gate expand then gate again ?
Getting phenixes to lift tanks, (4 at least, no need for void ray) zealots and sentries. You JUST have to lift of tanks and immobilize marines with FF. It went pretty well for me but i'm only a diamond player and it could pretty much be a lot worse on master or pro level.
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No one whants to see tvtvtvt in all the tournaments not even the terrans. So buff incoming. Going to be interesting what they come up with.
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I think the discussion has shifted from "how protoss are doing in GSL" to a "generic and personal whining involving Protoss".
I mean everyone have opinions on what aspects of the game aren't balanced (me too) but no one here play in the GSL, so if really protoss is so bad, and, if really protoss players will go out of code S in a couple of months we could safely assume that there's something really wrong. Even if your personal experience with protoss is different.
btw is a bit early to jump to this conclusion; and i think that, if this edition of GSL will really show that protoss have no future, they (the koreans) will do something to balance the game even without any Blizzard intervention.
They are smart and they can't afford to lose a 30% of viewers, so they will do something. There's no reason to worry imho.
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EPT
