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On August 13 2011 09:11 StatX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 09:08 DeckOneBell wrote:
I've personally felt for a long time that early game protoss units are really quite weak once past the initial stages, partially because their upgrades are so hard to get. Getting stim, shield and concussive shell for Terran is pretty easy, roach speed and ling speed for zerg is also fairly easy compared to getting charge for protoss, though blink isn't completely out of reach.
That period of time between "tier 1" and "tier 1.5" (or whatever you want to call it) just feels really rough, especially with expansions going down around then and all that fun stuff.
When warpgates got nerfed without much of a buff to gateway units, that timing just got harder to defend.
Eh. Dunno how it'll pan out, I don't see any real innovation possible personally (because of warpgate research) but there might be something the protoss players can do. All the things protoss used to be considered "imba" for seem to mostly be gone--warp in storms no longer exist, so high templar are just useful, not great lategame, deathball is not as effective since zerg started using more infestors, collosus are not really able to be snuck in without anti-air being constructed because of how long they take to build.
Honestly, I hope Blizzard does something about it, but there might be some solution w/o a buff/nerf. I am not sure sure what you mean by charge being out of reach. If you can get blink you can get charge and the building for it is part of our higher tech tree. If you meant the cost of these upgrades, you are correct but getting isn't much of an issue especially if you chronoboost them.
sure, but going twilight first always is a big risk of a build order loss
Gateway Units plainly suck when Zerg gets LingSpeed/Roach Speed or Terran gets Stim/CS
i guess it would be a good solution to delay warpgates (into Twilight for example) and instead putting blink/charge into core?
i would rather have Blink/Charge then Warpgate anyday...
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On August 13 2011 08:16 Grapesludge wrote:
I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it.
I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?'
Thing is, Protoss isn't like Terran. You can't really macro AND do a timing attack that isn't all-in. At the very least, we don't really know how to do it at the moment. Up until now, the basic PvZ paradigm was to expand into heavy/all-in warpgate pressure, or expand while harassing and delaying the third with Stargate or DTs. None of these really work at the moment.
The other problem is that passive macro just doesn't work at the highest level of play. A Zerg freely droning without any pressure gets a huge economic advantage that is really hard to overcome. Used to be that Protoss maxed armies were really strong, so turtling to 200 on 3 bases was viable. But with the advent of Infestors, Banelings drops, and faster Hive tech, the Zerg can have an equally strong maxed army. Look at Ret vs Naniwa on Shakuras during the EU Blizzard Invitational - Ret was doubling Naniwa's supply at the 9:30 mark, with 60+ drones on 3 bases. Or the recent GSTL, MC vs Revival, where Revival throws tons of units away pointlessly throughout the game, and ends up rolling MC anyway because of the advantage he got in the early game.
The problem is really just having an opening that lets you break even with the Zerg at the very least, and Protoss just don't have it at the moment.
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On August 13 2011 09:18 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 09:11 StatX wrote:On August 13 2011 09:08 DeckOneBell wrote:
I've personally felt for a long time that early game protoss units are really quite weak once past the initial stages, partially because their upgrades are so hard to get. Getting stim, shield and concussive shell for Terran is pretty easy, roach speed and ling speed for zerg is also fairly easy compared to getting charge for protoss, though blink isn't completely out of reach.
That period of time between "tier 1" and "tier 1.5" (or whatever you want to call it) just feels really rough, especially with expansions going down around then and all that fun stuff.
When warpgates got nerfed without much of a buff to gateway units, that timing just got harder to defend.
Eh. Dunno how it'll pan out, I don't see any real innovation possible personally (because of warpgate research) but there might be something the protoss players can do. All the things protoss used to be considered "imba" for seem to mostly be gone--warp in storms no longer exist, so high templar are just useful, not great lategame, deathball is not as effective since zerg started using more infestors, collosus are not really able to be snuck in without anti-air being constructed because of how long they take to build.
Honestly, I hope Blizzard does something about it, but there might be some solution w/o a buff/nerf. I am not sure sure what you mean by charge being out of reach. If you can get blink you can get charge and the building for it is part of our higher tech tree. If you meant the cost of these upgrades, you are correct but getting isn't much of an issue especially if you chronoboost them. sure, but going twilight first always is a big risk of a build order loss Gateway Units plainly suck when Zerg gets LingSpeed/Roach Speed or Terran gets Stim/CS i guess it would be a good solution to delay warpgates (into Twilight for example) and instead putting blink/charge into core? i would rather have Blink/Charge then Warpgate anyday...
The solution is to delay the chronoboost to 12 probes instead of 10 and bring out an earlier gateway at 11 which makes your WG and timing that much sooner. Also, when groing vs Terrans, a fast +1 armor along with charge will allow you to easily undo any early push from marines and marauders. If youre scared for your base, have a cannon for sigh by mineral line and use a stalker or 2 itll stop any and all harass.
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Ok I'm a protoss player I have a question does anyone know when any of this will be fixed like right now TvP feels ok I guess, but PvZ feels so imbalanced it's such as hard match up for me and pros I watch a lot of the pro scene. Protoss is so powerless in mid game and ya I wish we had drops like terran or something KA would be nice but blizzard won't introduce them back because it's their way of saying they were wrong and they won't admit they were wrong. I usually play 3 gate expo and poke at watch towers to harrass and turtle on 3 base and make a deathball if I can though my "deathball" gets owned by broodlord, infestor, roach. Zerg know how to deal with the "deathball" so how much longer is protoss going to have to wait and suffer until HotS? I can't wait 2 years until the next expansion, I'm sorry or is there a balance patch before that? just my 2 cents.
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PvZ isn't that bad to be honest. Theres more micro involved and just like a bad infestor micro can wipe an etire zerg army, so can bad micro of our units and thats where the matchup stands.
Most p[layers that get pushed to death in PvZ is either because of lack of scouting or lack of agression. Being too passive when zergs are nkow for gredy hatches all over will usually demolish you. If you say PvZ is hard for you, put up some replays and open a thread asking what you could have done to better your play and possibly win the game!
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For PvT, something I've been doing that works pretty well is a 1Gate Expand with 2Z 1S pressure. At the very least, it forces a bunker and gives you a good read on the opponent, and it works very well against non-bio openings. I'm pretty sure the main reason it works so well is because it's unheard of and because I'm playing at a really low level (Diamond), but it's at least worth a shot. The only thing that absolutely crushes it is a bio-SCV all-in.
That's all. Hope it helps someone out.
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On August 13 2011 08:16 Grapesludge wrote:
I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it.
I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?'
So the approach to the 1-1-1 build is to not attack, sit in your base and try to defend? REVOLUTIONARY! It isn't like that's the standard response to it which fails nearly every time...
In PvZ, Protoss has to pressure the Zerg, otherwise Zerg can get up to 3 bases plus unchallenged and then just stream units at the Protoss and/or get Infestor/Broodlord which destroys almost every Protoss unit combination, for the first example see + Show Spoiler +, for the second see... well, there are a lot of examples in lower leagues but in higher leagues Protoss players aren't normally stupid enough to let that happen.
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On August 13 2011 09:49 StatX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 09:18 freetgy wrote:On August 13 2011 09:11 StatX wrote:On August 13 2011 09:08 DeckOneBell wrote:
I've personally felt for a long time that early game protoss units are really quite weak once past the initial stages, partially because their upgrades are so hard to get. Getting stim, shield and concussive shell for Terran is pretty easy, roach speed and ling speed for zerg is also fairly easy compared to getting charge for protoss, though blink isn't completely out of reach.
That period of time between "tier 1" and "tier 1.5" (or whatever you want to call it) just feels really rough, especially with expansions going down around then and all that fun stuff.
When warpgates got nerfed without much of a buff to gateway units, that timing just got harder to defend.
Eh. Dunno how it'll pan out, I don't see any real innovation possible personally (because of warpgate research) but there might be something the protoss players can do. All the things protoss used to be considered "imba" for seem to mostly be gone--warp in storms no longer exist, so high templar are just useful, not great lategame, deathball is not as effective since zerg started using more infestors, collosus are not really able to be snuck in without anti-air being constructed because of how long they take to build.
Honestly, I hope Blizzard does something about it, but there might be some solution w/o a buff/nerf. I am not sure sure what you mean by charge being out of reach. If you can get blink you can get charge and the building for it is part of our higher tech tree. If you meant the cost of these upgrades, you are correct but getting isn't much of an issue especially if you chronoboost them. sure, but going twilight first always is a big risk of a build order loss Gateway Units plainly suck when Zerg gets LingSpeed/Roach Speed or Terran gets Stim/CS i guess it would be a good solution to delay warpgates (into Twilight for example) and instead putting blink/charge into core? i would rather have Blink/Charge then Warpgate anyday... The solution is to delay the chronoboost to 12 probes instead of 10 and bring out an earlier gateway at 11 which makes your WG and timing that much sooner. Also, when groing vs Terrans, a fast +1 armor along with charge will allow you to easily undo any early push from marines and marauders. If youre scared for your base, have a cannon for sigh by mineral line and use a stalker or 2 itll stop any and all harass.
Can I ask what league you're in that these kind of strategies work? I can't imagine ever having charge and +1 armor out before an early marine + marauder push.
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On August 14 2011 20:38 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 08:16 Grapesludge wrote:
I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it.
I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?' So the approach to the 1-1-1 build is to not attack, sit in your base and try to defend? REVOLUTIONARY! It isn't like that's the standard response to it which fails nearly every time... In PvZ, Protoss has to pressure the Zerg, otherwise Zerg can get up to 3 bases plus unchallenged and then just stream units at the Protoss and/or get Infestor/Broodlord which destroys almost every Protoss unit combination, for the first example see + Show Spoiler +, for the second see... well, there are a lot of examples in lower leagues but in higher leagues Protoss players aren't normally stupid enough to let that happen.
there's not much "solid" play for protoss players in pvz right now. I have thought 2 base all ins were gimmicky for a long time and have approached the macro game instead. Obviously you can't do this without any pressure on zerg or the races mechanics will easily outmacro you.
I suggest 5 gate pressure (expo behind it) and try and match them in a macro game. However, the problem with this is that zergs are understanding the difference between light pressure and all ins now and react enough to stay alive, but they don't actually get behind, so they still outmacro you in the long run. Toss can't fall back on deathballs, because infestors deal with them (rightfully so).
The problem is there's no way to deny expos without moving your whole army or going with risky dt play or risky ht play... which is just huge investment in harassment. I think protosses need to struggle for awhile and try and come up with something, but there's actually no solid way to play, all harrass and expo denial is either through all ins or heavy invested tech.
Toss will benefit for awhile on things like ht drops, but the problem is zergs can spend time and resource to stop things like that if they were popular builds, because it's such a huge investment for a protoss to make.
so as of right now i'm either winning because i'm much better than the player i'm playing, i do something really risky they don't expect, or they over react to my initial 5 gate pressure. I always try to go with the most solid and safe styles, but if i was doing that against zerg right now i would be in mid diamond easy.
as for terran, 1/1/1 is their reason for domination. So if they aren't doing that, and you're the better player, you'll probably beat them. I just hope that blizzard looks at protoss and instead of deciding to make our tech better, they give us some sort of harass options or something. like baneling bombs in min line, or blue flame hellions in mineral line. neither of those cost near as much as ht or dt drops and they keep the player in their base. (lot drops are decent, but if the player has good reaction and doesn't pull a fat chunk of their army, they're waaaay too easy to deal with)
Edit: super long post, but have to add this. I kinda look at pvz as zvt. Think about how hard it is for zerg to pressure a terran midgame. They can threaten it sorta, but there's no way of doing any serious damage without doing something cheesy or all in, like a baneling bust or a gold expo, roach timing. now imagine that in the matchup zerg couldn't counter attack or harass with mutas.
I really like zvt because there's this indirect way that zergs deal with not being able to break the terran, and that's kind of my inspiration for how i play against zerg as protoss now, the only problem is that "mutas" in zvt are a much more solid style then "Ht drops/Dt harass" in pvz. just some thoughts. ty so much if u actually read this, and feel free to pm me 
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On August 13 2011 08:16 Grapesludge wrote:
I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it.
I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?'
Gimme a break. Zerg players love to claim they figured it out when truth is Blizzard figured it out for Zerg after incessant complaints. They never learned how to deal with reapers, reapers were nerfed. They never learned how to deal with bunker rushes, bunkers were nerfed. 2-rax a problem? Depot before rax nerf. 2-gating zealot pressure too hard to defend? Nerf zealot build times. Stim pushes to powerful? Nerf stim. Warp-gate pushes to effective? Delay warp-gate research. Air openers to much of a hassle to deal with? First nerf the Void Ray. That didnt work? Buff spore-root time so they don't have to pay as much a cost for poor building placement. Death-ball? Here you go zergs, your all-in-one counter, Infestors, 100% more DPS and 130% more DPS to armored.
So before you claim these protoss pros are idiots and just can't think outside the box perhaps you need to refect on the past wrt zerg pros who had no answers.
The reason why Terran and Protoss MUST do timing pushes, if they like winning, is because you leave a Zerg alone and it will be 200 vs 100 before you know it. Go watch nani vs ret in that tounament last week (i forgot what it was called) if you want to see what happens when a Protoss puts zero pressure on Zerg, it's laughably one sided due to zerg macro mechanics.
The meta game basically works like this. Terran and Protoss puts enough pressure/harass on Zerg to be on equal footing come mid game. Or kills them outright with an all in. If not they die.
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On August 15 2011 02:17 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 08:16 Grapesludge wrote:
I think protoss players are approaching this wrong, let me give an example PvZ: zerg players have started to figure out how to stop the gateway heavy timing pushes that protoss seem to dish out on a consistent basis. I think this is a bad way to judge the game, given that it is some kind of a timing window/gimmicky play that requires your opponent not to be prepared for it.
I know that protoss players seem to think that they have no other option than to do timing pushes, but I think it's a matter of time before protoss find out that you can play straight up. When I watch Huk's stream he executes really nice builds against zerg that focuses on heavy macro lategame. Rather than having the thought 'damn, my timing push didn't work' I think people should think 'how do I reasonably approach lategame without disadvantage?' Gimme a break. Zerg players love to claim they figured it out when truth is Blizzard figured it out for Zerg after incessant complaints. They never learned how to deal with reapers, reapers were nerfed. They never learned how to deal with bunker rushes, bunkers were nerfed. 2-rax a problem? Depot before rax nerf. 2-gating zealot pressure too hard to defend? Nerf zealot build times. Stim pushes to powerful? Nerf stim. Warp-gate pushes to effective? Delay warp-gate research. Air openers to much of a hassle to deal with? First nerf the Void Ray. That didnt work? Buff spore-root time so they don't have to pay as much a cost for poor building placement. Death-ball? Here you go zergs, your all-in-one counter, Infestors, 100% more DPS and 130% more DPS to armored. So before you claim these protoss pros are idiots and just can't think outside the box perhaps you need to refect on the past wrt zerg pros who had no answers. The reason why Terran and Protoss MUST do timing pushes, if they like winning, is because you leave a Zerg alone and it will be 200 vs 100 before you know it. Go watch nani vs ret in that tounament last week (i forgot what it was called) if you want to see what happens when a Protoss puts zero pressure on Zerg, it's laughably one sided due to zerg macro mechanics. The meta game basically works like this. Terran and Protoss puts enough pressure/harass on Zerg to be on equal footing come mid game. Or kills them outright with an all in. If not they die.
This pretty much sums it up. Almost all PvZ build orders are aimed at two things:
1. Secure your natural without straight up dying to an early push or being crippled by losing your sentries or having your Nexus cancelled.
2. Somehow denying or delaying Zerg's third which, if taken early enough, will mean death for you later due to their economic advantage.
DTs and SG openers have been more or less solved and aren't able to perform this function anymore. Zergs simply put a spore and a queen at their third and both of those builds are basically nullified. Any Zerg at a masters or higher level of play is going to be able to 'sense' these openers due to the sentry count, so it's rare for these builds to be effective.
3 gate robo is a great way to be safe and to lose to a 160 food push by the time you hit the 100 mark since you have no units. This build is completely unable to apply pressure unless the zerg is a total moron.
Thus we come to the 6/7/8 gate pressure builds and stuff like the +2 blink timings. These builds rely on praying that the Zerg overdrones or allows you to get some positional advantage on them. Gateway units aren't cost effective vs roach/ling and zerg gets a defenders advantage plus creep speed so these pushes (add in the fact that gateway units also are not cost effective vs roach/ling) will fail if the zerg is prepared.
The basic point here is that the ZvP metagame has evolved to a point where Zergs can basically get a free third while having enough units out to beat whatever Protoss can put in the field at that point and furthermore, due to this, they can deny a Protoss third. This isn't brood war where a 2 base protoss can push a 4 base zerg. Protoss and zerg are pretty much equal on even bases until high tech units come out and there are a lot of upgrades.
Map control, stronger army, more mobility, higher economy. All that's left is to somehow secure a third, turtle your ass off and pray that the guy will sit there maxed out while you do the same -- that's what happened in Idra vs. Huk on shakuras.
As long as dumb and abusive mechanics like warpgate and forcefield exist it will be incredibly hard for this situation to be resolved in a way that doesn't make protoss completely broken one way or the other.
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On August 13 2011 09:18 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 09:11 StatX wrote:On August 13 2011 09:08 DeckOneBell wrote:
I've personally felt for a long time that early game protoss units are really quite weak once past the initial stages, partially because their upgrades are so hard to get. Getting stim, shield and concussive shell for Terran is pretty easy, roach speed and ling speed for zerg is also fairly easy compared to getting charge for protoss, though blink isn't completely out of reach.
That period of time between "tier 1" and "tier 1.5" (or whatever you want to call it) just feels really rough, especially with expansions going down around then and all that fun stuff.
When warpgates got nerfed without much of a buff to gateway units, that timing just got harder to defend.
Eh. Dunno how it'll pan out, I don't see any real innovation possible personally (because of warpgate research) but there might be something the protoss players can do. All the things protoss used to be considered "imba" for seem to mostly be gone--warp in storms no longer exist, so high templar are just useful, not great lategame, deathball is not as effective since zerg started using more infestors, collosus are not really able to be snuck in without anti-air being constructed because of how long they take to build.
Honestly, I hope Blizzard does something about it, but there might be some solution w/o a buff/nerf. I am not sure sure what you mean by charge being out of reach. If you can get blink you can get charge and the building for it is part of our higher tech tree. If you meant the cost of these upgrades, you are correct but getting isn't much of an issue especially if you chronoboost them. sure, but going twilight first always is a big risk of a build order loss Gateway Units plainly suck when Zerg gets LingSpeed/Roach Speed or Terran gets Stim/CS i guess it would be a good solution to delay warpgates (into Twilight for example) and instead putting blink/charge into core? i would rather have Blink/Charge then Warpgate anyday...
this seriously would be such a good move by blizzard. I would hope to have this in HOTS at least
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Cryak I wouldn't mind FF and WG removed completely for expensive and powerful units again, instead of just expensive.
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I understand the sentiment and Protoss players cannot properly pressure the Zerg in the mid game without being somewhat all in, and this the reason why there seems to be just 2 base all INS or heavy turtling. There seems to be no tempo based play of any sorts, and light pressure is dealt with easily as it is quite easy to tell when Protoss is pressuring or doing a timing (sentries on creep, proxy pylon at edge of creep).
However, I feel that not everything is explored properly. If you don't expose your sentries in the mid game, you are not going to be forced all in by moving out on the map. You also need some map presence that doesn't result in your army being surrounded by zerglings as another thing which forces Protoss players all in is because their army cannot retreat.
I feel that the future of PvZ is Phoenix charge lot harass. It doesn't expose sentries, it poses enough threat as pressure that the Zerg has to respect it, and removes map control from the Zerg.
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On August 13 2011 07:38 Drowsy wrote:
Regarding stargate phoenixes vs 1/1/1:
Can't terran simply put up an armory, stop banshee/tank production, mass marine+thor 1 base allin and crush any stargate opener?
Problem with phoenixes vs 1/1/1 is that by the time you scout with your obs it will be too late the 1/1/ will hit your base before you have time to put down the stargate and get out phoenixes.
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PvT is ok, the pros lost to Terran just b/c of 1/1/1 build. But PvZ is having a huge problem with infestors and Zerglings, infestors is just too good vs anything from protoss, and lings are the cheapest units in the game, so all Zerg need is make a wall of spinecrawler to stop Protoss early aggression, turtle on 2 bases to get infestors/lings cuz they are cheaps and you just need a macro hatch to produce. Then destroy protoss gateways or taking map control while expanding and tech to hive, eitherway lings/banelings is just too good for harassing.
I wish Protoss has a good harassing units like banelings or hellions, so cheap and cost effective. One shot from 2 hellions/ or 2 banelings could kill the entire workers line while Dts got shut down by 1 single spore and spine crawlers. HTs drop is so expensive that when you fail, you're so far behind already.
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While it is quite disparaging right now, i'm not going to start worrying until a month or two from now. Just like zerg was able to adapt and pick up their win rates, so shall protoss. And to be honest, while inca, vanvanth, and anypro were in code S for quite awhile, they are definitely not code S material.
Regarding PvT and the 1/1/1, i will give terran credit for not overly abusing this strategy up until now and getting it to last this long, but now that an uproar has commenced i see that strat's days as numbered.
If there is anything to learn from previous zerg QQ, we should know to have faith that things will turn around soon enough. If not from strats or patches, then atleast from the upcoming expansions.
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On August 15 2011 03:40 Micket wrote:
I understand the sentiment and Protoss players cannot properly pressure the Zerg in the mid game without being somewhat all in, and this the reason why there seems to be just 2 base all INS or heavy turtling. There seems to be no tempo based play of any sorts, and light pressure is dealt with easily as it is quite easy to tell when Protoss is pressuring or doing a timing (sentries on creep, proxy pylon at edge of creep).
However, I feel that not everything is explored properly. If you don't expose your sentries in the mid game, you are not going to be forced all in by moving out on the map. You also need some map presence that doesn't result in your army being surrounded by zerglings as another thing which forces Protoss players all in is because their army cannot retreat.
I feel that the future of PvZ is Phoenix charge lot harass. It doesn't expose sentries, it poses enough threat as pressure that the Zerg has to respect it, and removes map control from the Zerg.
How does it pose a threat? It loses brutally to ling/roach. You are able to attain map control briefly with it but you can't actually stop them from just taking more bases and droning like a maniac.
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On August 15 2011 03:53 Spacekyod wrote:
While it is quite disparaging right now, i'm not going to start worrying until a month or two from now. Just like zerg was able to adapt and pick up their win rates, so shall protoss. And to be honest, while inca, vanvanth, and anypro were in code S for quite awhile, they are definitely not code S material.
Regarding PvT and the 1/1/1, i will give terran credit for not overly abusing this strategy up until now and getting it to last this long, but now that an uproar has commenced i see that strat's days as numbered.
If there is anything to learn from previous zerg QQ, we should know to have faith that things will turn around soon enough. If not from strats or patches, then atleast from the upcoming expansions.
Zerg did not adapt. They were buffed and others nerfed. It's not a coincidence win rates picked up big time after march patch.
There has been very few metagame changes since beta other than hellions, most things people call metagame changes are simply game changes. Game changes that make x strategy viable or no longer viable.
The 1/1/1 is nothing new either, it's been around since beta as well. But was shut down hard with 3 gate stargate or soft counter w/4 gate both of which were nerfed so you see a resurgence as of late.
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On August 11 2011 15:46 Sukari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 15:40 DarkRise wrote:
I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression. I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe). But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies. Maybe? Or they can all just cannon rush.
It hasn't really changed; Protoss lategame is still very strong vs Zerg and will generally win in a ball vs ball engagement. ZvP for Zerg is won or lost in the midgame, and as Zergs get better with their mechanics and drone timings, they tilt the midgame more to their favor. I've always felt Protoss was weak in the midgame without blink stalkers, and fungal provides a decent solution to those.
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EPT
