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On August 11 2011 15:55 TheLOLas wrote:
I sort of feel that Protoss hasn't evolved like the other races have. Protoss players seem to try to play the game the way they did 3 months ago while terran players and zerg players are trying new and unique things. Zerg in particular have drastically evolved ( No pun intended ) with their roaches in ZvT and more infestor play.
Because infestors were buffed. That's not an evolution.
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On August 11 2011 17:57 Brian333 wrote:I think blink stalkers and / or phoenixes are an unexplored possibility to dealing with 1/1/1. 1/1/1 is a build that needs to stay turtled up before it's ready to crawl across the map, relies on banshee harass to punish greed, and depends on the positioning of the decisive battle. Spoilers for Ro16 Tassadar vs. Yoda Code A: + Show Spoiler +Tassadar had an interesting game 2 where he had basically beaten the 1/1/1 but made some huge judgment errors that cost him the game.
The phoenix opener did a multitude of things. It constantly scouted the Terran base to check for any multitude of variations on the 1/1/1. It denied Banshee harass. It allowed the Protoss to stay a little more even on 1 base income by killing workers and more importantly, Mules. It forced the Terran to stay in their base and allowed the Protoss to pick an area to engage, allowing the Protoss to engage early rather then at their own front door. The Phoenixes dealt with the Banshee in battle and helped negate Siege fire briefly. I think Blink Stalkers work in a similar way. They allow you engage, retreat, and re-engage and immobile army to slowly chip away at its strength as long as you can control the map and engage early which you should be able to do with the Stalker's mobility. Maybe even drop play with a robotics after a 1gate FE would work. I'm sure others have also done something similar but WhiteRa's warp-prism drop / warp-in timed perfectly to hit their mineral line right as the Terran army leaves their base is great at buying time to get more out of the expansion. I just feel like an optimized Phoenix opener or PvT 1gate FE Blink Stalker opener would work.
I feel like a hidden expo and quick 6 gates would work pretty well for him. Phoenix could be very good answer to this because you either force a bay and turrets, which cuts into his marine production a lot and the chargelots off 6 gates + phoenix for every tank.
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On August 11 2011 18:00 Modernist wrote:
If you watched tonight's match between Yoda and Tassader you'll see that it's possible for Protoss to defend the 1-1-1 all-in from Terrans.
I'm talking about game 2 on Crossfire where Tassadar went for fast stargate with 4 phoenix harassing and containing Yoda. This delayed the push enough for Tassadar to expand, or even tech to Colossus or Templar. Unfortunately, he did neither and instead went mass gateway units off 1 base, all the way up to the 15 minute mark. So he died quite easily.
Yoda botched it horribly, tassadar went into the game with a prepared BLIND COUNTER and still lost, I think that's saying something.
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On August 11 2011 17:55 OnFiRe888 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:48 Zealot Lord wrote:On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote:
the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to. how does 2 gate robo help hold off this build better? its not really the problem of scouting it. you'll have even less units because when the attack hits at 9.30~10.00'ish, a typical 1 gate FE will have more than paid for its nexus and more. even with a blind counter against this build, chances of you winning depend on mainly 2 things: you playing out everything perfectly, and your opponent making some sort of mistake (not QQ'ing, but thats the truth at the current moment). if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build?
1 gate FE is indeed a risky build when you are talking about holding off early heavy rax pressure, but this isn't about protoss getting 'punished' for being greedy, because the 1/1/1 hits after the expansion has more than paid for itself already.
And despite what Wolf may say, 1 base collosus isn't the way to hold this off, so an early robo bay makes no difference. Lastly, variations of this build has been around for an entire year, to say toss players just aren't used to defending this yet isn't very correct.. =/ Oh, and don't forget the bunker build time nerf too, that definitely had an impact on bunker rushing imo.
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On August 11 2011 18:00 StaplerPhone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:50 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 11 2011 17:46 StaplerPhone wrote:On August 11 2011 17:44 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 11 2011 17:42 Jinivus wrote:On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote:
the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to. Except this doesn't actually make you survive the attack. fast collosus, or charge helps you survive the attack, but you need a robo before you can make a robo bay, so it does help you survive the attack. this is a lot safer than getting a 1 gate expo Didn't Naniwa do this against Thorzain in the TSL3 Finals? If I remember correctly he still got smashed because all Thorzain had to do was contain. Even with Naniwa's incredible play to break the contain he was so far behind and just lost. in my opinion, nani should've never let those bunkers get up, you have to be PREPARED when facing this build when the terran even moves out you should have at least 1 collosus and 2nd halfway done. naniwa's downfall that game was letting the bunkers get up, that push is 100% tougher to hold with bunkers, you HAVE to attack before the bunkers or else you do the alicia move and counter, which almost never works =( But wouldn't rushing to collosus mean you have a tiny ground force? And since you have no thermal lance yet considering its takes roughly 2 collosus build times to get out, I don't think stopping the bunkers from going up is plausible.
not really, you can have a lot of zealots, 6-7 stalkers, 2 collo when the timing hits believe me i play this build all the time, it's as routine for me as a 3 gate FE a couple months ago
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On August 11 2011 17:53 Elwar wrote:
I want to sidestep the 1/1/1 or zergs almost certain ability to get a great economic lead and focus on base defence.
This is where I see most protoss struggling badly. Drops.
Drops are killing protoss in the midgame. Protoss has the slowest reactionary units in the game (stimmed units + zerg units, much faster obviously), gateway units in small numbers are terrible against either zerg or terran (sidenote: which is why protoss' harassment ability sucks and/or relies on the opponent making mistakes), and protoss have no magic bullet response like the planetary fortress. Cannons are not the answer, they're expensive, can't cover much area, and are torn down so fast by marauders or roaches to the point where they don't matter unless you build a prohibitive amount. DTs are good at base defence...unless they bring detection and/or scan, in which case they're huuuuuge resource sinks.
Obviously protoss' shitty ability to defend themselves is countered by the army being quite strong when it is actually together and properly utilised, but its becoming harder and harder to get to that point as terrans and zergs learn to harass more effectively. I have no ideal solution, but this is a major problem as I see it.
We saw I believe some protoss (Tails? IIRC) have a bunch of zealots, like 5-6, and an archon at his main base and the terran (Taeja?) simply chose to drop right on top of them and the warpins he knew would happen. Thats 20+ supply of units at ONE base for defence, and they didn't do dick.
Umm, I'd say protoss have plenty to deal with drops. With warp-ins, charge zealots, blink stalkers, feedback, protoss actually have a much better answer to drops than either terran or zerg imo.
tails got doom dropped and that was his own fault for not having anything spotting it. Any race can lose to something like that if you don't expect it. If he had just gotten 2 observers and kept them in good places that would never have happened.
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On August 11 2011 18:00 Modernist wrote:
If you watched tonight's match between Yoda and Tassader you'll see that it's possible for Protoss to defend the 1-1-1 all-in from Terrans.
I'm talking about game 2 on Crossfire where Tassadar went for fast stargate with 4 phoenix harassing and containing Yoda. This delayed the push enough for Tassadar to expand, or even tech to Colossus or Templar. Unfortunately, he did neither and instead went mass gateway units off 1 base, all the way up to the 15 minute mark. So he died quite easily.
and the counter to this build is to go for fast cloak and terran gets a free win.
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On August 11 2011 18:03 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:55 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 11 2011 17:48 Zealot Lord wrote:On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote:
the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to. how does 2 gate robo help hold off this build better? its not really the problem of scouting it. you'll have even less units because when the attack hits at 9.30~10.00'ish, a typical 1 gate FE will have more than paid for its nexus and more. even with a blind counter against this build, chances of you winning depend on mainly 2 things: you playing out everything perfectly, and your opponent making some sort of mistake (not QQ'ing, but thats the truth at the current moment). if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build? 1 gate FE is indeed a risky build when you are talking about holding off early heavy rax pressure, but this isn't about protoss getting 'punished' for being greedy, because the 1/1/1 hits after the expansion has more than paid for itself already. And despite what Wolf may say, 1 base collosus isn't the way to hold this off, so an early robo bay makes no difference. Lastly, variations of this build has been around for an entire year, to say toss players just aren't used to defending this yet isn't very correct.. =/ Oh, and don't forget the bunker build time nerf too, that definitely had an impact on bunker rushing imo.
fast collosus works fine for me, but i'm only in masters
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On August 11 2011 18:06 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:00 Modernist wrote:
If you watched tonight's match between Yoda and Tassader you'll see that it's possible for Protoss to defend the 1-1-1 all-in from Terrans.
I'm talking about game 2 on Crossfire where Tassadar went for fast stargate with 4 phoenix harassing and containing Yoda. This delayed the push enough for Tassadar to expand, or even tech to Colossus or Templar. Unfortunately, he did neither and instead went mass gateway units off 1 base, all the way up to the 15 minute mark. So he died quite easily. and the counter to this build is to go for fast cloak and terran gets a free win.
You scout the cloak and hunt the Banshees down before they can get to your base since you'll have map control with phoenixes. If they're forced to cloak that far away, they will never make it there with enough energy to do anything.
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On August 11 2011 17:57 Brian333 wrote:
I think blink stalkers and / or phoenixes are an unexplored possibility to dealing with 1/1/1.
I've tried both and they don't work at all : blink stalker get raped by tank and phoenixes are destroyed by marines even before the T sees them. The only thing which work ( a little bit ) is fats collo with the range upgrade but even with it you get out-ranged by tank .
I think the issue of the 1-1-1 against P is that 3 units counter all protoss units ( except carrier ) .
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On August 11 2011 18:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:53 Elwar wrote:
I want to sidestep the 1/1/1 or zergs almost certain ability to get a great economic lead and focus on base defence.
This is where I see most protoss struggling badly. Drops.
Drops are killing protoss in the midgame. Protoss has the slowest reactionary units in the game (stimmed units + zerg units, much faster obviously), gateway units in small numbers are terrible against either zerg or terran (sidenote: which is why protoss' harassment ability sucks and/or relies on the opponent making mistakes), and protoss have no magic bullet response like the planetary fortress. Cannons are not the answer, they're expensive, can't cover much area, and are torn down so fast by marauders or roaches to the point where they don't matter unless you build a prohibitive amount. DTs are good at base defence...unless they bring detection and/or scan, in which case they're huuuuuge resource sinks.
Obviously protoss' shitty ability to defend themselves is countered by the army being quite strong when it is actually together and properly utilised, but its becoming harder and harder to get to that point as terrans and zergs learn to harass more effectively. I have no ideal solution, but this is a major problem as I see it.
We saw I believe some protoss (Tails? IIRC) have a bunch of zealots, like 5-6, and an archon at his main base and the terran (Taeja?) simply chose to drop right on top of them and the warpins he knew would happen. Thats 20+ supply of units at ONE base for defence, and they didn't do dick. Umm, I'd say protoss have plenty to deal with drops. With warp-ins, charge zealots, blink stalkers, feedback, protoss actually have a much better answer to drops than either terran or zerg imo. tails got doom dropped and that was his own fault for not having anything spotting it. Any race can lose to something like that if you don't expect it. If he had just gotten 2 observers and kept them in good places that would never have happened.
Not really, warp ins are kind of terrible response against T drops. The problem is Terran drops are WAYYY too cost efficient vs Protoss. It takes SO much to deal with a single Terran drop, so we put a ton of resources into stopping the drop that means that we're vulnerable somewhere else. I think you should have to either upgrade medivac heal or drop ability ^_^
As for the 1/1/1 thing, the reason it's so powerful is because of cloak. Not necessarily the spell itself but the threat of it. We HAVE to get detection no matter what, so we have to put the resources into the robo and observers, usually 2. So, what kind of army can we get in time while building a robo and 2 observers ( you get 2 because if you only have one and they do go cloak they can easily pick one off with raven/marine ) ? I think it CAN be stopped but it's incredibly hard to do, and even if we have enough to stop it, Terran can just expand behind it and set up a huge contain with 10 bunkers and turrets outside of our natural.
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On August 11 2011 18:10 Lazzi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:57 Brian333 wrote:
I think blink stalkers and / or phoenixes are an unexplored possibility to dealing with 1/1/1. I've tried both and they don't work at all : blink stalker get raped by tank and phoenixes are destroyed by marines even before the T sees them. The only thing which work ( a little bit ) is fats collo with the range upgrade but even with it you get out-ranged by tank . I think the issue of the 1-1-1 against P is that 3 units counter all protoss units ( except carrier ) .
Marines actually soft counter carriers, because they kill interceptors so fast 
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On August 11 2011 18:06 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:00 Modernist wrote:
If you watched tonight's match between Yoda and Tassader you'll see that it's possible for Protoss to defend the 1-1-1 all-in from Terrans.
I'm talking about game 2 on Crossfire where Tassadar went for fast stargate with 4 phoenix harassing and containing Yoda. This delayed the push enough for Tassadar to expand, or even tech to Colossus or Templar. Unfortunately, he did neither and instead went mass gateway units off 1 base, all the way up to the 15 minute mark. So he died quite easily. and the counter to this build is to go for fast cloak and terran gets a free win.
no not really. if the terran sees phoenix after his first banshee, the counter is NOT getting cloak. the reason is the phoenix can scout your base easily which was exactly what tassadar was doing weaving in and out of his base, he'll see the tech lab researching cloak and can respond immediately. you can get a robo facility and observer. also phoenix presence on the map will often force banshees to cloak prematurely.
cloak is 200/200/110
robo facility + obs is 200/100/65 + 25/75/40 = 225/175/105 (w/o chrono boost).
the banshee will get sniped by phoenix w/obs easily. meanwhile you open up a free tech path for protoss.
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On August 11 2011 18:10 Lazzi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:57 Brian333 wrote:
I think blink stalkers and / or phoenixes are an unexplored possibility to dealing with 1/1/1. I've tried both and they don't work at all : blink stalker get raped by tank and phoenixes are destroyed by marines even before the T sees them. The only thing which work ( a little bit ) is fats collo with the range upgrade but even with it you get out-ranged by tank . I think the issue of the 1-1-1 against P is that 3 units counter all protoss units ( except carrier ) .
I'm not suggesting you engage siege mode tanks with Stalkers. You engage unsieged tanks with your Stalkers right as they leave their ramp, chip away at marines, hopefully force a siege, and then blink away once your shields are gone. After your shields regen, you engage again, chip away at the marines, hopefully force another siege, and then blink away again once your shields are gone. Maybe you can even back stab them with blink Stalkers like what PvP vColossi has turned out to force them to turn around. The goal is to slow them down as much as possible so that your 1-gate FE can give you enough units to beat their weakened ball by the time they get to your base.
And we just saw phoenix play work pretty well so I don't need to go over that again.
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On August 11 2011 17:55 OnFiRe888 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:48 Zealot Lord wrote:On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote:
the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to. how does 2 gate robo help hold off this build better? its not really the problem of scouting it. you'll have even less units because when the attack hits at 9.30~10.00'ish, a typical 1 gate FE will have more than paid for its nexus and more. even with a blind counter against this build, chances of you winning depend on mainly 2 things: you playing out everything perfectly, and your opponent making some sort of mistake (not QQ'ing, but thats the truth at the current moment). if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build?
A 1gate FE has more than paid for itself by the time the push comes. The nexus finishes around 6:00. From there you are mining for about 3 minutes, and as each worker mines ~40 per minute, needs about 10 worker-mining minutes to pay for itself. Easily pays for itself.
2 rax zergs just had to realize that if they pulled drones to help defend, it wasn't actually that hard to stop. Most of the time I see zergs end up roughly even after a 2 rax. The solution to this build isn't as clear cut, especially since with this 1/1/1, the terran has the tools to hold off almost EVERY single allin/pressure by protoss in the game. The only allin I can think of that will most likely beat this is 3gate blink rush, and even then, if the terran decided to go cloak banshee, you still autolose. Tassadar tried both stargate openings, and still lost both times doing the supposed hard counter.
DT? Pull SCV's to repair while making a raven/saving scans. Push for easy win. void all-in? repair and make viking+siegetank. 4gate? repair bunker while making stuff. This build is extremely solid against all the tools in the protoss arsenal right now.
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Korean terrans are simply much, much better than Korean protosses or zergs. Terran is not OP in EU/NA at all so what other explanation is there for the amount of terrans in Code S and A.
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On August 11 2011 18:16 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:10 Lazzi wrote:On August 11 2011 17:57 Brian333 wrote:
I think blink stalkers and / or phoenixes are an unexplored possibility to dealing with 1/1/1. I've tried both and they don't work at all : blink stalker get raped by tank and phoenixes are destroyed by marines even before the T sees them. The only thing which work ( a little bit ) is fats collo with the range upgrade but even with it you get out-ranged by tank . I think the issue of the 1-1-1 against P is that 3 units counter all protoss units ( except carrier ) . I'm not suggesting you engage siege mode tanks with Stalkers. You engage unsieged tanks with your Stalkers right as they leave their ramp, chip away at marines, hopefully force a siege, and then blink away once your shields are gone. After your shields regen, you engage again, chip away at the marines, hopefully force another siege, and then blink away again once your shields are gone. Maybe you can even back stab them with blink Stalkers like what PvP vColossi has turned out to force them to turn around. The goal is to slow them down as much as possible so that your 1-gate FE can give you enough units to beat their weakened ball by the time they get to your base. And we just saw phoenix play work pretty well so I don't need to go over that again.
Oh my god, if a blind counter loses to a horribly executed allin it doesn't mean the allin's balanced.
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On August 11 2011 18:18 Laurence wrote:
Korean terrans are simply much, much better than Korean protosses or zergs. Terran is not OP in EU/NA at all so what other explanation is there for the amount of terrans in Code S and A.
Hey this guy got it right, thus quoting him for the truth. Terrans just are simply better than their Protoss and Zerg bretheren in Korea.
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The blind counter would've decisively won had Tassadar's decision making been even slightly less disastrous.
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On August 11 2011 18:18 Laurence wrote:
Korean terrans are simply much, much better than Korean protosses or zergs. Terran is not OP in EU/NA at all so what other explanation is there for the amount of terrans in Code S and A.
Eu/NA players have terrible micro and terran is the race that benefits the most from good micro is the most simple explanation. Foreigners have proven that they are actually terrible compared to koreans recently so we should absolutely not judge balance based on their results.
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EPT
