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On August 11 2011 18:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:
supply of units at ONE base for defence, and they didn't do dick.
Umm, I'd say protoss have plenty to deal with drops. With warp-ins, charge zealots, blink stalkers, feedback, protoss actually have a much better answer to drops than either terran or zerg imo.
Terran and zerg stop drops with.... zerglings, mutalisks, roaches...really fast units....or stimmed MMM....or planetary fortresses.
Charge zealots aren't much better than regular zealots at handling drops - they suck against units been healed or roaches, for instance -, blink stalkers stop drops if you have 6-7 of them **directly near the drop**, which is hardly feasible on more than two bases. Warp-ins are meant to be the answer, but relies on a) massive amount of idle gateways (more than 1 gateway unit for every 2 food worth of units dropped...much more for stimmed MMM) b) huge amount of unused resources/bad macro.
tails got doom dropped and that was his own fault for not having anything spotting it. Any race can lose to something like that if you don't expect it. If he had just gotten 2 observers and kept them in good places that would never have happened.
Terrans regularly mop up "doom drops" from both other terrans and zergs. Zergs a) have easy means to spot such drops, and b) very rarely have said drops happen to them because they can respond in the blink of an eye. Both can actually respond before their base and tech tree is wiped from existence.
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On August 11 2011 18:13 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:06 quiet noise wrote:On August 11 2011 18:00 Modernist wrote:
If you watched tonight's match between Yoda and Tassader you'll see that it's possible for Protoss to defend the 1-1-1 all-in from Terrans.
I'm talking about game 2 on Crossfire where Tassadar went for fast stargate with 4 phoenix harassing and containing Yoda. This delayed the push enough for Tassadar to expand, or even tech to Colossus or Templar. Unfortunately, he did neither and instead went mass gateway units off 1 base, all the way up to the 15 minute mark. So he died quite easily. and the counter to this build is to go for fast cloak and terran gets a free win. no not really. if the terran sees phoenix after his first banshee, the counter is NOT getting cloak. the reason is the phoenix can scout your base easily which was exactly what tassadar was doing weaving in and out of his base, he'll see the tech lab researching cloak and can respond immediately. you can get a robo facility and observer. also phoenix presence on the map will often force banshees to cloak prematurely. cloak is 200/200/110 robo facility + obs is 200/100/65 + 25/75/40 = 225/175/105 (w/o chrono boost). the banshee will get sniped by phoenix w/obs easily. meanwhile you open up a free tech path for protoss.
Maybe you are right. either way, i think Yoda overcommited to defending the harass wich delayed his push. with 1/1/1 its OK to lose a few SCVs as long as you dont push out to late.
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This 1-1-1 build is exposing basic flaws in the game, I cant see Blizzard fixing this before HOTS, From all the games i have seen 1 gate Robo expand looks the best bet for Protoss at the moment.
The basic flaws as i see it.
1/ Terran reaches 90% of its tech tree in under 7 mins while on 1 base and cant be punished due to flaws in design of the other 2 races.
2/ The dps of the marine is crazy good and it counters all units cost for cost.
Since the release of the game its always been Zerg and Protoss playing catch up to Terran. Terran invents a new strat or refines an old one and the other 2 races suffer.
The other 2 races need the massive AOE dps of Storm \ Colossus \ Fungal \ Baneling to deal with Terran Bio power. This cant be fixed until HOTS comes out without screwing Terran late game
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We have only seen 2 protoss players in GSL yet. MC has had weak PvT for ages now and Alicia is in a slump in general as we could see at MLG.
Purely based on numbers, we could still see more protoss players advancing than zerg players. Even though the 111 is disgusting, we should wait with the heavy QQ until Puzzle, HongUn, Tester, Genius and HuK have played.
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On August 11 2011 18:24 Topdoller wrote:
This 1-1-1 build is exposing basic flaws in the game, I cant see Blizzard fixing this before HOTS, From all the games i have seen 1 gate Robo expand looks the best bet for Protoss at the moment.
The basic flaws as i see it.
1/ Terran reaches 90% of its tech tree in under 7 mins while on 1 base and cant be punished due to flaws in design of the other 2 races.
2/ The dps of the marine is crazy good and it counters all units cost for cost.
Since the release of the game its always been Zerg and Protoss playing catch up to Terran. Terran invents a new strat or refines an old one and the other 2 races suffer.
The other 2 races need the massive AOE dps of Storm \ Colossus \ Fungal \ Baneling to deal with Terran Bio power. This cant be fixed until HOTS comes out without screwing Terran late game
Oh please don't whine.
#1 is exaggerating.
#2 is blatantly untrue.
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On August 11 2011 18:06 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:00 Modernist wrote:
If you watched tonight's match between Yoda and Tassader you'll see that it's possible for Protoss to defend the 1-1-1 all-in from Terrans.
I'm talking about game 2 on Crossfire where Tassadar went for fast stargate with 4 phoenix harassing and containing Yoda. This delayed the push enough for Tassadar to expand, or even tech to Colossus or Templar. Unfortunately, he did neither and instead went mass gateway units off 1 base, all the way up to the 15 minute mark. So he died quite easily. and the counter to this build is to go for fast cloak and terran gets a free win.
Use the super mobile phoenix to find the Banshee and force it to cloak early. It won't last forever.
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On August 11 2011 18:25 sleepingdog wrote:
We have only seen 2 protoss players in GSL yet. MC has had weak PvT for ages now and Alicia is in a slump in general as we could see at MLG.
Purely based on numbers, we could still see more protoss players advancing than zerg players. Even though the 111 is disgusting, we should wait with the heavy QQ until Puzzle, HongUn, Tester, Genius and HuK have played.
Weak PvT and yet statistically and just looking at NASL finals he's the best PvT in the world. What does that tell you?
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These threads always devolve into people taking what is statistically a small sample of games(less then 20) at the highest level of play then including their own experiences at much lower level play to rationalize that X race/build is imbalanced.
Think about this, GSL code A and code S for the most part are the best sc2 players in the world. There are still quite a few protoss(especially considering how many high level korean players play Terran), and GSL code a July finals was pvp. Protoss are still making it into the highest leagues of play, but because of the 5-10 most recent games they see on TV people decide that a race is in trouble.
So if P is underpowered how did they get there to the highest levels in the first place? Are they just insanely good and 2 times better then their opponents?
Yes 1-1-1 is very strong and seems like it's a win every game. But protoss have these types of builds too, I've never seen a GSL game where a terran has held a 6 gate after one rax expanding without taking game ending damage,other then huk vs polt on crevasse where huk made a ton of mistakes.
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On August 11 2011 18:32 Nibbler89 wrote:
These threads always devolve into people taking what is statistically a small sample of games(less then 20) at the highest level of play then including their own experiences at much lower level play to rationalize that X race/build is imbalanced.
Think about this, GSL code A and code S for the most part are the best sc2 players in the world. There are still quite a few protoss, and GSL code a July finals was pvp. Protoss are still making it into the highest leagues of play, but because of the 5-10 most recent games they see on TV people decide that a race is in trouble.
So if P is underpowered how did they get there to the highest levels in the first place? Are they just insanely good and 2 times better then their opponents?
Yes 1-1-1 is very strong and seems like it's a win every game. But protoss have these types of builds too, I've never seen a GSL game where a terran has held a 6 gate after one rax expanding without taking game ending damage,other then huk vs polt on crevasse where huk made a ton of mistakes.
Yeah well I've never seen a game were a protoss held a 1-1-1 no matter what they do. It's not a matter of playing greedy and being punished. Nothing seems to even survive, let alone stop efficiently.
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On August 11 2011 18:26 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:24 Topdoller wrote:
This 1-1-1 build is exposing basic flaws in the game, I cant see Blizzard fixing this before HOTS, From all the games i have seen 1 gate Robo expand looks the best bet for Protoss at the moment.
The basic flaws as i see it.
1/ Terran reaches 90% of its tech tree in under 7 mins while on 1 base and cant be punished due to flaws in design of the other 2 races.
2/ The dps of the marine is crazy good and it counters all units cost for cost.
Since the release of the game its always been Zerg and Protoss playing catch up to Terran. Terran invents a new strat or refines an old one and the other 2 races suffer.
The other 2 races need the massive AOE dps of Storm \ Colossus \ Fungal \ Baneling to deal with Terran Bio power. This cant be fixed until HOTS comes out without screwing Terran late game
Oh please don't whine. #1 is exaggerating. #2 is blatantly untrue.
No whine here. Simply switch to Terran if you dont like the game as it is. I did as i play casual and its the best thing i ever done
This problem is an Esports problem not a problem for 99.9% of the gamers still playing this game. The only guy on this forum who posts on a regular basis is Jinro who can really comment on this.
I wish threads like this were closed instantly by the mods tbh. Its all QQ
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On August 11 2011 18:31 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:25 sleepingdog wrote:
We have only seen 2 protoss players in GSL yet. MC has had weak PvT for ages now and Alicia is in a slump in general as we could see at MLG.
Purely based on numbers, we could still see more protoss players advancing than zerg players. Even though the 111 is disgusting, we should wait with the heavy QQ until Puzzle, HongUn, Tester, Genius and HuK have played. Weak PvT and yet statistically and just looking at NASL finals he's the best PvT in the world. What does that tell you?
Heh I'm P, we are on the same side 
I'm just saying, that Alicia going out didn't surprise me "that" much, and MC lost to Bomber both in macro and against 111 not long ago.....
The thing is, not only do more players play terran, but we should accept that these terran players are also pretty damn good.
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On August 11 2011 18:32 Nibbler89 wrote:
These threads always devolve into people taking what is statistically a small sample of games(less then 20) at the highest level of play then including their own experiences at much lower level play to rationalize that X race/build is imbalanced.
Think about this, GSL code A and code S for the most part are the best sc2 players in the world. There are still quite a few protoss(especially considering how many high level korean players play Terran), and GSL code a July finals was pvp. Protoss are still making it into the highest leagues of play, but because of the 5-10 most recent games they see on TV people decide that a race is in trouble.
So if P is underpowered how did they get there to the highest levels in the first place? Are they just insanely good and 2 times better then their opponents?
Yes 1-1-1 is very strong and seems like it's a win every game. But protoss have these types of builds too, I've never seen a GSL game where a terran has held a 6 gate after one rax expanding without taking game ending damage,other then huk vs polt on crevasse where huk made a ton of mistakes.
MC is far far better than his "rivals" save NesTea. You see his macro and defense against puma? Have you watched his impeccable micro? MVP doesn't come close to that.
Huk and Nani are absurdly better than their foreign terran counterparts.
So yeah Toss players are outplaying their opponents.
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If you allow me a high amount of generalization, I think that the current struggle for Protoss in ultra high-level play (aside from the infamous 1-1-1) is not merely a matter of banal metagame shifting; I reckon that the current status might be simply due to the fact that harassment has become much more integral to the game, and Terran is peculiarly effective at it—see the recent MMA vs Nestea match for a good example.
Multitasking-intensive Terran is extremely good, due to the viability of drops and high-damage kiting. It does not help that in direct engagement a handful of Ghosts can insta-EMP half an army without exposing to much of a risk, either.
I would hope that even small modifications could help Protoss significantly. Maybe if EMPs gradually affected units in time, like Storms, it would be better; a small buff to the War Prism could help Protoss to harass more effectively, etc. Otherwise, Blizzard would need to review much of the race's properties to grant a flexibility that is currently missing (I see many users complaining about how "rigid" Protoss play is, and I agree to an extent).
Disclosure: I no longer play SC2 actively (former Terran), but I still follow it as a spectator.
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On August 11 2011 18:37 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:32 Nibbler89 wrote:
These threads always devolve into people taking what is statistically a small sample of games(less then 20) at the highest level of play then including their own experiences at much lower level play to rationalize that X race/build is imbalanced.
Think about this, GSL code A and code S for the most part are the best sc2 players in the world. There are still quite a few protoss(especially considering how many high level korean players play Terran), and GSL code a July finals was pvp. Protoss are still making it into the highest leagues of play, but because of the 5-10 most recent games they see on TV people decide that a race is in trouble.
So if P is underpowered how did they get there to the highest levels in the first place? Are they just insanely good and 2 times better then their opponents?
Yes 1-1-1 is very strong and seems like it's a win every game. But protoss have these types of builds too, I've never seen a GSL game where a terran has held a 6 gate after one rax expanding without taking game ending damage,other then huk vs polt on crevasse where huk made a ton of mistakes. MC is far far better than his "rivals" save NesTea. You see his macro and defense against puma? Have you watched his impeccable micro? MVP doesn't come close to that. Huk and Nani are absurdly better than their foreign terran counterparts. So yeah Toss players are outplaying their opponents.
haha so MC is far far better then MVP and polt?(not that mc isn't a great player, but acting like MVP is plat league compared to MC is unarguably retarded) the bias is hilarious but ultimately creates pointless debates / discussions. reminds me of the age of silver-gold zergs saying since they played zerg they are actually diamond or masters+ level.
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From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea.
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MVP and polt play toss they don't win jack. MC has consistently had the best control in the world. Hid macro is also near perfect.
It's a pointless debate because I can't obviously prove the counterfactual. Just look at the games and be honest about who impresses you more.
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On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote:
From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea.
That's an opinion, I personally think they are all on par, Polt is pretty good now. What I took issue with was saying " far far better" then his rivals, can't believe I have to explain this.
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On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote:
From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea.
There's a difference between how hard a race is and how strong it is.
My personal opinion.
Protoss isn't strong, but there's really nothing hard about Protoss mechanics.
Maybe it is harder for Protoss to actually win, but maybe not harder to play.
So in terms of balance, Protoss is weaker and weaker the higher the level is because of the low skill ceiling and because of balance.
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On August 11 2011 18:48 Nibbler89 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote:
From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea. That's an opinion, I personally think they are all on par, Polt is pretty good now. What I took issue with was saying " far far better" then his rivals, can't believe I have to explain this.
The guy part times pro-gaming part time goes to school. Also I genuinely don't think his control or macro is comparable. I'll even let you have MVP grudgingly but not polt.
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EPT
