EPTProtoss in GSL August - Page 10
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
It seems strange to conclude based off a season that isn't halfway done. That foreigners suck compared to Koreans we already knew. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On August 11 2011 19:18 ProxyKnoxy wrote: It seems really hard to hold off early Terran pressure when you go for 2 gate or even 3 gate expand. From my own experience you need to get a relatively fast collossus to hold them timings off Colossus get owned by the 1-1-1 push though. Four banshees focus down a colossus in a second and your gateway army is too small to deal with the rest. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On August 11 2011 15:46 Sukari wrote: I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe). But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies. Maybe? Or they can all just cannon rush. What answer? The only answer I know of, is the buffed spell caster, with now 2x the DPS vs light, and 2.333x vs armored. Maybe if Blizz were to buff Storm in the same way, P would do OK again. | ||
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dirtyBeat
Spain32 Posts
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quiet noise
599 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA. That's what bothers me. I've never considered Zerg the easiest race when I was seeing them losing a lot, and that all their players were retarded. It's still strange that despite Protoss being beaten by arguably very easily executable builds like 1/1/1 (way harder to defend, let's face it), we always get labeled as cheesy, dumb, slow, bad, and all that. There must be something wrong design-wise there, right? | ||
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Loodah
335 Posts
On August 11 2011 19:21 aebriol wrote: Last season code A had a PvP final. It seems strange to conclude based off a season that isn't halfway done. That foreigners suck compared to Koreans we already knew. Code S was ZvZ MLG top 6 was TvT the MLG before that T champion - TVZ final Toss for 2011 has been statistically the weakest. I'm not talking about balance, i'm talking about results / facts. | ||
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Loodah
335 Posts
On August 11 2011 19:25 ZenithM wrote: It's nice to compare "Protoss whine" to "Zerg whine" some months ago. I'm not complaining about how bad Protoss seems to be lately (well it does bring boring 1:1:1 stompfest and more TvTs ;D). But there is a key difference: Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA. That's what bothers me. I've never considered Zerg the easiest race when I was seeing them losing a lot, and that all their players were retarded. It's still strange that despite Protoss being beaten by arguably very easily executable builds like 1/1/1 (way harder to defend, let's face it), we always get labeled as cheesy, dumb, slow, bad, and all that. There must be something wrong design-wise there, right? Also, Idra used to think Protoss was the strongest in sc1. There was never a time that protoss dominated or even did well compared to the other races. Protoss sucked in SC1 once the metagame evolved Listening to Idra about balance advice is just idiotic. Zergs only use him as a defense mechanism when they lose. The problem is that he's not even the best foreigner any more, let alone one of the best players. So even that weak argument has no real logic behind it. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On August 11 2011 16:03 Orcasgt24 wrote: Im surprised that GSL Protoss don't do this more honestly. Some of these ultra greedy builds I'm seeing from Terrans in the GSL could be punished reallly hard by a cannon rush. Watching Terrans do 1 rax expands or CC first builds and get away with it just seems like a bad strategy. Often they seem to skip scouting until 15ish supply too. If you did a cannon rush on a map like Terminus or Taldirm Alter I think alot of terrans in GSL would auto lose because they went for a greedy build. ?????????????? Cannon rush vs T is pointless, cuz they can lift their buildings and fly away. And they also have the best anti-cannon unit in the game, the marauder. The reason you dont see it, is because its dumb. | ||
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Scereye
Austria154 Posts
Im not nearly considered an good player, im only watching games & playing for fun (no buildorders etc.). So im just curious and its a serious Question. If you could handle the transition to Carriers, get them upgraded.. I know the "transition" itself is gonna cause some Problems but hey... maybe some warp prism harassement to keep the enemy defending (as u got starports anyway) in the mid game? Ive never seen anyone doing more then 1 warp prism drop/warp in in a game, neither have i seen mass carriers included in an well thought strategy (only sometimes when toss got a huge lead anyway)... Its not that i believe this would work, neither do i consider myself decent enough to discuss at an level where i understand all meta gaming involved. Just wondering and asking decent players why we dont see this kind of play more often. Ive seen 4-5 carriers taking over games with upgraded weapons... | ||
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VoO
Germany278 Posts
On August 11 2011 19:25 ZenithM wrote: Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA. Is this your argument? Seriously? Like serious seriously? IdrA's complaining about every race he loses to except Zerg for obvious reasons. I saw the exact same shit in BW and this time I'm gonna switch before it's too late. Blizzard won't change a fuck, they will ruin Protoss like they did in BW. On August 11 2011 19:33 Scereye wrote: Are Carriers really that bad? Yes. On August 11 2011 19:33 Scereye wrote: I know the "transition" itself is gonna cause some Problems but hey... maybe some warp prism harassement to keep the enemy defending (as u got starports anyway) in the mid game? Oh wow, really every non-protoss player comes up with the paper prism idea. This tactic has been explored since the beta. I can't believe someone really believes that Protoss player forgot about a unit in their play like Terran did with Helions? It's not exactly like Protoss has easy to use one composition units like the Marauder/Marine/Medivac ball and therefore focused on a single type... | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On August 11 2011 19:33 Scereye wrote: Are Carriers really that bad? Im not nearly considered an good player, im only watching games & playing for fun (no buildorders etc.). So im just curious and its a serious Question. If you could handle the transition to Carriers, get them upgraded.. I know the "transition" itself is gonna cause some Problems but hey... maybe some warp prism harassement to keep the enemy defending (as u got starports anyway) in the mid game? Ive never seen anyone doing more then 1 warp prism drop/warp in in a game, neither have i seen mass carriers included in an well thought strategy (only sometimes when toss got a huge lead anyway)... Its not that i believe this would work, neither do i consider myself decent enough to discuss at an level where i understand all meta gaming involved. Just wondering and asking decent players why we dont see this kind of play more often. Ive seen 4-5 carriers taking over games with upgraded weapons... It's almost impossible to stay alive to get the carriers until 4+ bases. Other than that i guess they are pretty good. | ||
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quiet noise
599 Posts
On August 11 2011 19:25 ZenithM wrote: It's nice to compare "Protoss whine" to "Zerg whine" some months ago. I'm not complaining about how bad Protoss seems to be lately (well it does bring boring 1:1:1 stompfest and more TvTs ;D). But there is a key difference: Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA. That's what bothers me. I've never considered Zerg the easiest race when I was seeing them losing a lot, and that all their players were retarded. It's still strange that despite Protoss being beaten by arguably very easily executable builds like 1/1/1 (way harder to defend, let's face it), we always get labeled as cheesy, dumb, slow, bad, and all that. There must be something wrong design-wise there, right? Yep. The thing is, Greg is obviously to biased/narrow minded to see that its not the players that are cheesy/gimicky/in favor of doing coinflip builds, its just that protoss is designed to play out that way. we dont have a viable harass unit for taking out mineral lines fast (like banelings or hellions) and we cant really do multi pronged attacks because our units are weak in low numbers. what protoss need is: 1. a viable unit for harassment, to utilize the warp prism 2. better access to some of our tech units, like high templars for example. it just doesnt make sense that its soo expensive to get and yet we are absolutley dependant on having it to counter Infestors. I think blizzard should have lowered the tech requirements/costs when they took out KA | ||
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Scereye
Austria154 Posts
On August 11 2011 19:34 Teoita wrote: It's almost impossible to stay alive to get the carriers until 4+ bases. Other than that i guess they are pretty good. Yeah i know, but the magic word is "almost". Did someone seriously ever try to focus only on this one thing? Making a gameplan JUST to get Carriers, nothing else, dont care about anything else. Or am i just dreaming the viewers dream? :D | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On August 11 2011 19:34 corvaleur wrote: Is this your argument? Seriously? Like serious seriously? IdrA's complaining about every race he loses to except Zerg for obvious reasons. I saw the exact same shit in BW and this time I'm gonna switch before it's too late. Blizzard won't change a fuck, they will ruin Protoss like they did in BW. Okay so apparently you didn't read my post except that sentence. I was just criticizing that same thing you called me out for. That people listen too much to IdrA even though he's maybe the most biased player ever. I think that Blizzard should introduce 2 new races: "Terran (former Protoss)" and "Zerg (former Protoss)" to show the world how we dumb people would fare with "harder" races :D | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
On August 11 2011 19:38 Scereye wrote: Yeah i know, but the magic word is "almost". Did someone seriously ever try to focus only on this one thing? Making a gameplan JUST to get Carriers, nothing else, dont care about anything else. Or am i just dreaming the viewers dream? :D Point 1) warp prisms come from the robo not starport. 2) Marines and hydralisk or infestors pretty comman units against protoss all destroy carriers. The only thing i find them good against is mech or a very late game transiition against terran but thats when you have 4/5 bases. | ||
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Tommie
China658 Posts
PvT: With the warpgate/void ray nerfs there is nothing to prevent terran from doing 1-1-1. There are so god dam many 1-1-1's. 1base and 2base, raven or no raven, cloak or no cloak. Maybe with the old void ray or the old warpgate timings protoss could punish half of them so at least you can exclude many variations of the 1-1-1 from the realm of possibilities. In a straight up MMMGV vs Armored Chargelots+Stalker+Colossus+Templar Protoss can hold its ground. But I rarely see Toss getting into the midgame even with the terran. TvZ. I dont know. Terran looks strong but I am not impressed by overall zerg play. But I think terran is gonna dominate for a little while. I think Protoss needs to rethink how they play PvT and PvZ. Protoss just feels immobile, not able to harass in the midgame and most of all, not lean and mean. It used to be: make the bigger/better ball, shove it in your opponents face and win. Thats not possible anymore. This is partially because of changes in patches but also because Protoss has to adapt. There is a lot of room for improvement. Still I think people dont realize how much of a difference all the balance changes make. Motherships and Carriers are not the answer. Just like nydus worms were not the answer when 5rax reaper into marauder was still around. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On August 11 2011 19:38 Scereye wrote: Yeah i know, but the magic word is "almost". Did someone seriously ever try to focus only on this one thing? Making a gameplan JUST to get Carriers, nothing else, dont care about anything else. Or am i just dreaming the viewers dream? :D Look at it this way: in pvt when you go for fast colosuss, the tech is so expensive you leave a timing window in which terran can attack you and do a lot of damage because you only have 1 colo tops with no range, and his first few medivacs are popping. Teching to carriers is much slower and slightly more expensive, which makes that timing window even bigger and you will die to a bunch of 2base timings, so nah, i don't see say 2base carrier being "standard" someday, at least in pvt. I -think- pvz is kind of similar: teching to carriers forces you to play really passive and that means z can get maxed 14 minutes into the game and just 300 food push you. But then again im just a diamond scrub theorycrafting builds that i have never tried before  | ||
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ExPresident
United States215 Posts
On August 11 2011 19:38 Scereye wrote: Yeah i know, but the magic word is "almost". Did someone seriously ever try to focus only on this one thing? Making a gameplan JUST to get Carriers, nothing else, dont care about anything else. Or am i just dreaming the viewers dream? :D I pulled it off once in a Diamond PvZ, I think he knew I was going air but was expecting carriers and he didn't respond. I did 1 base and sent my first 2 and won the game. The DPS of the carriers is fantastic, but its not really feasible. I tried the same exact thing vs my Master clan mate and he destroyed it. Carriers is ok, late game, and thats about it. Back on topic. Protoss has a lot of issues right now and like someone way earlier in the thread said, we are kidding ourselves if we think some effin Protoss Messiah is gonna come along and change things. That being said I have no place to discuss balance and or a fix because I suck. | ||
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