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On August 11 2011 19:39 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 19:34 corvaleur wrote:On August 11 2011 19:25 ZenithM wrote: Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA. Is this your argument? Seriously? Like serious seriously? IdrA's complaining about every race he loses to except Zerg for obvious reasons. I saw the exact same shit in BW and this time I'm gonna switch before it's too late. Blizzard won't change a fuck, they will ruin Protoss like they did in BW. Okay so apparently you didn't read my post except that sentence. I was just criticizing that same thing you called me out for. That people listen too much to IdrA even though he's maybe the most biased player ever. I think that Blizzard should introduce 2 new races: "Terran (former Protoss)" and "Zerg (former Protoss)" to show the world how we dumb people would fare with "harder" races :D
Yeah sorry about that, It's just that I am so raging at the moment and I'm sliglty pushed to change races here.
Don't mistake me, it is absolutely possible to invest time to get in Diamond, Master or even Grandmaster with Protoss and win tournaments but it is so incredible hard at the moment compared to other races. Last time we decided to wait for a fix by Blizzard, it never came, so I'm slightly concerned here.
Dustin Browder, he states explicitly that a Terran nerf will not occur, since it is not possible. So what other possibility do they have? Only a re-design which may happen in HotS or the Protoss addon.
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On August 11 2011 19:51 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 15:46 Sukari wrote:On August 11 2011 15:40 DarkRise wrote:
I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression. I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe). But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies. Maybe? Or they can all just cannon rush. Zerg didn't come up with an answer, Infestors were buffed and Protoss was nerfed.
Yeah, but they started dropping and harassing with lings instead of just letting the Protoss max.
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Italy12247 Posts
On August 11 2011 19:51 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 15:46 Sukari wrote:On August 11 2011 15:40 DarkRise wrote:
I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression. I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe). But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies. Maybe? Or they can all just cannon rush. Zerg didn't come up with an answer, Infestors were buffed and Protoss was nerfed.
Well a little bit has changed in zerg's play as usually you see them responding to a 1-3 gate expand with a super fast third, even before lair, which turns out to be really safe and wasn't done a few months ago. Also p tends to play all paranoid about roach-ling which certainly doesn't help.
Other than that yes, fucking infestors changed everything.
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Zerg came with answers to many Protoss builds but they were definitely helped by the protoss nerfs and the zerg buffs. The fast thirds before lair would not be as feasible with old warpgate timings/spore crawler, let alone with 3 range roaches. ZvP used to be: I can't let him take a third or I will get smashed by a 170 food army of death I cannot beat even with a 300 food push. Now that this is isn't the case anymore the matchup changed. Zerg can get into the lategame knowing that his 200 food army can stand up to Protoss' 200 food army.
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On August 11 2011 19:51 corvaleur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 19:39 ZenithM wrote:On August 11 2011 19:34 corvaleur wrote:On August 11 2011 19:25 ZenithM wrote: Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA. Is this your argument? Seriously? Like serious seriously? IdrA's complaining about every race he loses to except Zerg for obvious reasons. I saw the exact same shit in BW and this time I'm gonna switch before it's too late. Blizzard won't change a fuck, they will ruin Protoss like they did in BW. Okay so apparently you didn't read my post except that sentence. I was just criticizing that same thing you called me out for. That people listen too much to IdrA even though he's maybe the most biased player ever. I think that Blizzard should introduce 2 new races: "Terran (former Protoss)" and "Zerg (former Protoss)" to show the world how we dumb people would fare with "harder" races :D Yeah sorry about that, It's just that I am so raging at the moment and I'm sliglty pushed to change races here. Don't mistake me, it is absolutely possible to invest time to get in Diamond, Master or even Grandmaster with Protoss and win tournaments but it is so incredible hard at the moment compared to other races. Last time we decided to wait for a fix by Blizzard, it never came, so I'm slightly concerned here. Dustin Browder, he states explicitly that a Terran nerf will not occur, since it is not possible. So what other possibility do they have? Only a re-design which may happen in HotS or the Protoss addon.
Oh yeah, I totally hear you. Obviously you can be so good at Protoss that you beat most people, even competitively. But it's not very fun anymore to play a race (even casually) that is about to go inexistent in the most important SC2 tournament.
I don't think that Blizzard will patch the game at this point. The only thing that is keeping me from switching race myself is that I would feel like giving up and being beaten by the game (I've played P since the beta because I liked watching it, not because somewhere along the road it supposedly became the easiest and whatnot).
And who knows, they might tweak the race design a bit so that you don't feel as helpless at times.
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On August 11 2011 17:39 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:26 quiet noise wrote:On August 11 2011 17:23 Demonaz wrote:
Protoss are basically where Zerg were two months ago when everyone was complaining that z are too weak and underpowered. Seems that most of the 'abusive' p strats have been figured out and along with the 4-gate nerf its made it harder for the moment. However I'm sure something will be figured out soon, c'mon protoss players, get to work! Zerg didnt just "figure things out though". the recieved massive buffs to infestor and spore crawlers. seriously, drop the idea that some genious is gonna come up with this magic new protoss playstyle that noone has ever thought about before. its not going to happen. there are plenty of smart protoss players who practice 8-10hours a day in a pro teamhouse, everyday. If there was something that could be done, they would have figured it out by now. the game isnt just 2 months old anymore. In what games have the spore crawler change been a big factor? And your last sentance doesn't make sense since the protoss haven't struggled all the way since the game came out.
In every PvZ, where P goes for a Forge FE, and goes for air to deny 3rd.
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As a protoss, i dont want the game to be patched yet...
Unless if in a few month we see that it's still "unbeatable" . And by month i dont mean weeks
About the weak gateway units subject, I'm fine with it but i would prefer the strong but retarded dragoons from bw than FF. But blizzard doesn't want it...I dont want stalkers to be flawless (like the marauder hum hum)
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1 word: Byun
how people STILL don't see terran is a much better race than protoss after him is beyond me
he didn't do SHIT as protoss
he switched to terran and was code s instantly and almost won code a (against another terran who has always been playing terran no less)
this isn't even whine it's just stating facts. are you so much in denial that you don't even see simple shit as this?
honestly.
and then there is other stuff like mc streaming a few practice games a while back and constistently losing to FUCKING _____INCA____ who was offracing terran.
honestly what basis do you even have left to argue?
think about it.
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On August 11 2011 19:33 Scereye wrote:
Are Carriers really that bad?
Im not nearly considered an good player, im only watching games & playing for fun (no buildorders etc.).
So im just curious and its a serious Question.
If you could handle the transition to Carriers, get them upgraded..
I know the "transition" itself is gonna cause some Problems but hey... maybe some warp prism harassementto keep the enemy defending (as u got starports anyway) in the mid game?
Ive never seen anyone doing more then 1 warp prism drop/warp in in a game, neither have i seen mass carriers included in an well thought strategy (only sometimes when toss got a huge lead anyway)...
Its not that i believe this would work, neither do i consider myself decent enough to discuss at an level where i understand all meta gaming involved.
Just wondering and asking decent players why we dont see this kind of play more often.
Ive seen 4-5 carriers taking over games with upgraded weapons...
Me in this very thread
Couldn't agree more with this. Can't stand all the excuses people make about why toss is doing bad, from 'use moar warp prisms' or 'toss isn't weak, it's just that every player who plays toss is bad' or 'toss aren't creative and innovative'. I don't think I need to say any more, this guys post summed it up.
And lol at the guy who thought fungal growth wasn't buffed, and that zergs just magically started using it of their own accord.
Warp prisms from starports? Hmm...
Just to reiterate, in case somebody needed an example shoved in their face.
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Man there are dozens of threads on this already and it spills over to all the other threads as well, can you at least keep all of this in one so that the rest of us can try to actively avoid all this "meaningfull discussions about 'the state' (because nobody wants to say the word balance but it's still the same thing) of Protoss"? 
TL should just get a balance "discussion" (lol) forum section and keep the rest of the place clean.
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Jesus christ... dunno why i thought warp prism came from Starport.
Sorry about that haha.
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warp prisms are so bad people don't even know what building you need to make them
idra obviously is talking shit and shouldn't be taken seriously. i even remember him saying broodlords are bad a while ago. it's basically like artosis saying stalkers are too good or something. just bullshit that no one should take seriously.
protoss hasn't done anything ever except mc who was miles ahead of the metagame at the time.
protoss play has evolved a lot since but still can't beat the shit it was supposed to beat.
unless you honestly believe that all protoss players are somehow for some metaphysical reason worse than those of other races (read: you're in massive denial) there is no going around the FACT that protoss isn't a race that you should play if you want to win tournaments.
you ask me? mc (and everyone else who still plays protoss) should switch races. but if you ask me i would also tell you that you probably shouldn't pick mvp in your group.
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Protoss is not weak in our level of play, but I love to watch the PvZ and PvT matchup and is obvious that Protosses playing in the highest level are playing with a shit race that can't win a straight up game. If I did not like to watch pro players, I would not complain.
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On August 11 2011 20:22 hi im new wrote:
warp prisms are so bad people don't even know what building you need to make them
Its more like im not playing protoss neither to i play at a level where its important where it comes from.
Im watching pro games everyday, and its beeing build 1 in 100 games.
Now u got your reason why i mixed it up.
wohoo huge deal...
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On August 11 2011 20:27 Scereye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 20:22 hi im new wrote:
warp prisms are so bad people don't even know what building you need to make them . Im watching pro games everyday, and its beeing build 1 in 100 games. .
exactly.
there is a reason why bitter cynisism is all you will encounter when talking about warp prisms.
i don't blame you for not knowing nor do i mean to be a dick.
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So even if there was Infestor buff, why then do Nestea and Losira, the best 2 zergs in the world v P, not use infestors on a regular basis and still continue to beat most protoss they play. Zergs adapted to Protoss, time for Protoss to adapt.
As for TvP, its is all very balanced except for tank marine banshee all in, as much i love doing that build its most likely imbalanced. This sint to say what MVP did against MC is imbalanced as he did a one rax expo into playing Siege tanks. There was a style quite a few GSLs ago where Terrans were palying a more Marine tank against protoss. I remember MVP and MarineKing doing it abit. May have been around the world championships
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On August 11 2011 16:53 Gfox wrote:
I wish people would stop using random stats taken out of thin air to suggest that a race is bad. There are many more factors that need to be accounted. Imagine all the terrans suddenly came down with smallpox or something and were all out of the tournament. Then I could make a thread saying that Terran isnt doing well.... stats are fucking meaningless....
They arent random stats from thin air. They are not meaningless statistics. We have 11 pages of talk/interpretation. And if all Terran players had smallpox we would not make a Terran is weak whine thread. But that is not the case. Protoss is being raped at the moment.
Guys dont quote Thorzain vs Genius. Worst 1-1-1 ive ever seen.
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On August 11 2011 20:36 SnowyPsilocybin wrote:
So even if there was Infestor buff, why then do Nestea and Losira, the best 2 zergs in the world v P, not use infestors on a regular basis and still continue to beat most protoss they play. Zergs adapted to Protoss, time for Protoss to adapt.
As for TvP, its is all very balanced except for tank marine banshee all in, as much i love doing that build its most likely imbalanced. This sint to say what MVP did against MC is imbalanced as he did a one rax expo into playing Siege tanks. There was a style quite a few GSLs ago where Terrans were palying a more Marine tank against protoss. I remember MVP and MarineKing doing it abit. May have been around the world championships
It's actually a lot more complicated than that, the infestor buff makes the whole "turtle up til deathball" style almost completely not-viable, and since most protoss play revolves around huge 2base timings, you don't see Nestea and Losira need to use infestors, as most of the times they're simply defending an all-in, then winning.
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On August 11 2011 20:10 hi im new wrote:
1 word: Byun
how people STILL don't see terran is a much better race than protoss after him is beyond me
he didn't do SHIT as protoss
he switched to terran and was code s instantly and almost won code a (against another terran who has always been playing terran no less)
this isn't even whine it's just stating facts. are you so much in denial that you don't even see simple shit as this?
honestly.
and then there is other stuff like mc streaming a few practice games a while back and constistently losing to FUCKING _____INCA____ who was offracing terran.
honestly what basis do you even have left to argue?
think about it.
lol I knew about byun switching but not about InCa offracing
good one.
Terran has no fix
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EPT
