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On August 11 2011 18:50 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:48 Nibbler89 wrote:On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote:
From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea. That's an opinion, I personally think they are all on par, Polt is pretty good now. What I took issue with was saying " far far better" then his rivals, can't believe I have to explain this. The guy part times pro-gaming part time goes to school. Also I genuinely don't think his control or macro is comparable. I'll even let you have MVP grudgingly but not polt.
Fair enough, maybe MC should reroll T and win GSL for next 5 years ~_~ or until they nerf T.
I mean it seems like you actually think this would be the case.
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Actually really wish he would. I can could get behind that lol. God MC banshees. >< Perfect puma emps...
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On August 11 2011 18:48 Nibbler89 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote:
From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea. That's an opinion, I personally think they are all on par, Polt is pretty good now. What I took issue with was saying " far far better" then his rivals, can't believe I have to explain this.
Of course, Polt has good results, but if you put him up against other Terrans (I don't like feel like comparing Korean protoss and terran players atm as I don't feel it's fair, be it game balance issues or "more advanced metagame" from terran), he sure doesn't look as impressive as MVP or Bomber.
MC on the other hand, and HuK at times, do seem to have unparalleled micro, multitasking and minimap awareness.
It's just that the players that impress me the most are MC, MVP, Bomber and Nestea, not really Polt, Puma, and other very good korean terrans doing some multipronged marauder drops and hitting precise EMPs.
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On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote:
People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry
Couldn't agree more with this. Can't stand all the excuses people make about why toss is doing bad, from 'use moar warp prisms' or 'toss isn't weak, it's just that every player who plays toss is bad' or 'toss aren't creative and innovative'. I don't think I need to say any more, this guys post summed it up.
And lol at the guy who thought fungal growth wasn't buffed, and that zergs just magically started using it of their own accord.
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On August 11 2011 18:25 sleepingdog wrote:
We have only seen 2 protoss players in GSL yet. MC has had weak PvT for ages now and Alicia is in a slump in general as we could see at MLG.
Purely based on numbers, we could still see more protoss players advancing than zerg players. Even though the 111 is disgusting, we should wait with the heavy QQ until Puzzle, HongUn, Tester, Genius and HuK have played.
I wouldnt say Alicia is in a slump because of PvP, he lost 2-0 to ToD in the open bracket in PvP then met him again with extended series otherwise would of won 2-1, 2-2 to lose 4-2. PvP as everyone knows is a coinflip at times. If he had met any other matchup wouldnt of been the same, fare enough he probabyl sould of played better vs ToD but ToD played very well!!!
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Italy12246 Posts
On August 11 2011 18:57 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote:
People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry Couldn't agree more with this. Can't stand all the excuses people make about why toss is doing bad, from 'use moar warp prisms' or 'toss isn't weak, it's just that every player who plays toss is bad' or 'toss aren't creative and innovative'. I don't think I need to say any more, this guys post summed it up. And lol at the guy who thought fungal growth wasn't buffed, and that zergs just magically started using it of their own accord.
Protoss have actually experimented a lot in the last say 4-5 months: people in pvt have gone colossus/phoenix, fast templar, zealot/archon, double forge colossus, mass gateway: it might look similar but there's pretty substantial differences in all these builds...the only thing that we havent experimented with is carriers because it's impossible to stay alive until a meaningful count is out unless you get to lategame.
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TvZ is the best matchup, stopcomplaining !
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Can we stop having these threads? Everyone knows that Protoss is getting completely ass-raped right now. Some top level Protoss will figure something out, and we'll learn to adapt, or eventually it will get so bad that Blizzard will make a patch. It's obvious that what is normal, standard play, is absolutely terrible right now, so obviously there needs to be a change.
Either that, or maybe Terrans will stop using 1/1/1, or maybe Zergs will never use infestors and go back to only making roach/hydra. Then we can start winning again.
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On August 11 2011 18:56 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:48 Nibbler89 wrote:On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote:
From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea. That's an opinion, I personally think they are all on par, Polt is pretty good now. What I took issue with was saying " far far better" then his rivals, can't believe I have to explain this. Of course, Polt has good results, but if you put him up against other Terrans (I don't like feel like comparing Korean protoss and terran players atm as I don't feel it's fair, be it game balance issues or "more advanced metagame" from terran), he sure doesn't look as impressive as MVP or Bomber. MC on the other hand, and HuK at times, do seem to have unparalleled micro, multitasking and minimap awareness. It's just that the players that impress me the most are MC, MVP, Bomber and Nestea, not really Polt, Puma, and other very good korean terrans doing some multipronged marauder drops and hitting precise EMPs.
Fair enough polt is definitely on the lower end of that list despite being quite good.
What I think is amusing is people forget, MC CHOSE MVP knowing it was possible mvp would choose polt who has very strong tvp. MC is an awesome player /showman with incredible confidence it's a shame more protoss players don't try to emulate that aspect of him despite looking up to him.
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On August 11 2011 18:57 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote:
People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry Couldn't agree more with this. Can't stand all the excuses people make about why toss is doing bad, from 'use moar warp prisms' or 'toss isn't weak, it's just that every player who plays toss is bad' or 'toss aren't creative and innovative'. I don't think I need to say any more, this guys post summed it up. And lol at the guy who thought fungal growth wasn't buffed, and that zergs just magically started using it of their own accord.
I was listening to the VOD of Inside the Game 11, where game balance is a bit adressed at the end. And as usual IdrA reaffirmed that protoss players are dumb, cheesy and abusive motherfuckers and that protoss is actually overpowered. It's probably the main source of Protoss' bad reputation as zerg players tend to follow IdrA's word quite blindly. On top of that, Painuser was with him on this one, which let Incontrol kinda helpless.
I myself felt quite astonished before such a trollish attitude from 2 pros. IdrA was like "Protoss only needs to play turtle against Zerg, you dumbfuck". I thought that it was clear by now that you needed to pressure zerg and all that.
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The problem is that Terrans are overpowered.
Simply because of their flexibility.
Want to stop it?
- Make medivacs easier to kill / slower.
- Make buildings stop being able to lift off if they got an addon.
Or give a lot of new stuff to protoss and zerg.
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On August 11 2011 19:01 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:57 Ryder. wrote:On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote:
People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry Couldn't agree more with this. Can't stand all the excuses people make about why toss is doing bad, from 'use moar warp prisms' or 'toss isn't weak, it's just that every player who plays toss is bad' or 'toss aren't creative and innovative'. I don't think I need to say any more, this guys post summed it up. And lol at the guy who thought fungal growth wasn't buffed, and that zergs just magically started using it of their own accord. Protoss have actually experimented a lot in the last say 4-5 months
yeah, that was kinda my point.
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On August 11 2011 18:50 pt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote:
From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea. There's a difference between how hard a race is and how strong it is. My personal opinion. Protoss isn't strong, but there's really nothing hard about Protoss mechanics. Maybe it is harder for Protoss to actually win, but maybe not harder to play. So in terms of balance, Protoss is weaker and weaker the higher the level is because of the low skill ceiling and because of balance.
Maybe I'm the only one but I find protoss micro a lot harder than zerg micro actually (terran I can't comment on because I haven't played enough). Even a slight mistake with an FF can lose you the game after all, which makes me too scared too even really on sentry heavy play. I guess you could say the same for muta control- if you lose too many it's gg, but to me harassing with mutas is far less finicky than trying to cast FFs where a cm out means fail. I'm not saying zerg is easier or anything just that in terms of micro the whole 'EZ toss' thing seems to be exaggerated to me.
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On August 11 2011 19:04 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:57 Ryder. wrote:On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote:
People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry Couldn't agree more with this. Can't stand all the excuses people make about why toss is doing bad, from 'use moar warp prisms' or 'toss isn't weak, it's just that every player who plays toss is bad' or 'toss aren't creative and innovative'. I don't think I need to say any more, this guys post summed it up. And lol at the guy who thought fungal growth wasn't buffed, and that zergs just magically started using it of their own accord. I was listening to the VOD of Inside the Game 11, where game balance is a bit adressed at the end. And as usual IdrA reaffirmed that protoss players are dumb, cheesy and abusive motherfuckers and that protoss is actually overpowered. It's probably the main source of Protoss' bad reputation as zerg players tend to follow IdrA's word quite blindly. On top of that, Painuser was with him on this one, which let Incontrol kinda helpless. I myself felt quite astonished before such a trollish attitude from 2 pros. IdrA was like "Protoss only needs to play turtle against Zerg, you dumbfuck". I thought that it was clear by now that you needed to pressure zerg and all that.
thats because Idra wants us to play that way so he can drone up and make his 200/200 army without any hassle from the Protoss. Zergs seem to believe him though which is shocking...
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On August 11 2011 19:03 Nibbler89 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:56 ZenithM wrote:On August 11 2011 18:48 Nibbler89 wrote:On August 11 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote:
From an objective point of view (I play Protoss but considering switching for the past few weeks), Protoss seems to be the race with the worst/most screwed up design.
How can you explain that there are both threads: "complaining about protoss being too easy" and "protoss not winning a single korean pro game".
You must agree that it's fucked up, regardless of whether all this is true or not.
Edit: MC is certainly better than Polt, on par with MVP/Bomber and Nestea. That's an opinion, I personally think they are all on par, Polt is pretty good now. What I took issue with was saying " far far better" then his rivals, can't believe I have to explain this. Of course, Polt has good results, but if you put him up against other Terrans (I don't like feel like comparing Korean protoss and terran players atm as I don't feel it's fair, be it game balance issues or "more advanced metagame" from terran), he sure doesn't look as impressive as MVP or Bomber. MC on the other hand, and HuK at times, do seem to have unparalleled micro, multitasking and minimap awareness. It's just that the players that impress me the most are MC, MVP, Bomber and Nestea, not really Polt, Puma, and other very good korean terrans doing some multipronged marauder drops and hitting precise EMPs. Fair enough polt is definitely on the lower end of that list despite being quite good. What I think is amusing is people forget, MC CHOSE MVP knowing it was possible mvp would choose polt who has very strong tvp. MC is an awesome player /showman with incredible confidence it's a shame more protoss players don't try to emulate that aspect of him despite looking up to him.
That was definitely a mistake for MC to pick MVP, drama or not.
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On August 11 2011 19:05 aebriol wrote:
The problem is that Terrans are overpowered.
Simply because of their flexibility.
Want to stop it?
- Make medivacs easier to kill / slower.
- Make buildings stop being able to lift off if they got an addon.
Or give a lot of new stuff to protoss and zerg.
Nestea wins GSL code s may.
Nestea then wins GSL code s july with 100% win rate.
Terrans are OP we need to Buff zergs so that win rate will be 110%
Not saying zerg is OP(or that protoss is fine) but saying they need buffs when a player is already going 100% win rate is so stupid.
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On August 11 2011 19:08 Tommylew wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 19:04 ZenithM wrote:On August 11 2011 18:57 Ryder. wrote:On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote:
People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry Couldn't agree more with this. Can't stand all the excuses people make about why toss is doing bad, from 'use moar warp prisms' or 'toss isn't weak, it's just that every player who plays toss is bad' or 'toss aren't creative and innovative'. I don't think I need to say any more, this guys post summed it up. And lol at the guy who thought fungal growth wasn't buffed, and that zergs just magically started using it of their own accord. I was listening to the VOD of Inside the Game 11, where game balance is a bit adressed at the end. And as usual IdrA reaffirmed that protoss players are dumb, cheesy and abusive motherfuckers and that protoss is actually overpowered. It's probably the main source of Protoss' bad reputation as zerg players tend to follow IdrA's word quite blindly. On top of that, Painuser was with him on this one, which let Incontrol kinda helpless. I myself felt quite astonished before such a trollish attitude from 2 pros. IdrA was like "Protoss only needs to play turtle against Zerg, you dumbfuck". I thought that it was clear by now that you needed to pressure zerg and all that. thats because Idra wants us to play that way so he can drone up and make his 200/200 army without any hassle from the Protoss. Zergs seem to believe him though which is shocking...
Yeah, and even painuser agreed with greg on that one, lol. wich i guess kinda makes sense since he has casted american leagues where lots of bad zerg players got kinda stomped.
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I see P players dropping like flies in tournaments lately and it's hard not to think about some balance issues. 1-1-1 seems impossible to defend sometimes, drops are always hard to deal with, infestors are pretty ridiculous. As a P player I too am having tons of trouble against Zerg lately. It feels like Protoss has problems right now, as a race.
But after all of that, I can't help but go back and consider what happened when Zerg was considered underpowered against Protoss a few months ago. They whined about how they had to go roach-hydra-corruptor for various reasons, how they had been playing against Protoss for almost a year and they had the top pro players trying to figure out the matchup. "It's all been tried," they said, "and we have to play way better than Protoss to win." They said the race itself was the problem. And we, the Protoss players, told them "stop whining and start trying to figure out solutions." We said "use infestors!" And eventually they did. They adapted and learned new strategies. Yes, the infestor buff had a big impact on the matchup, but I think even if they rolled back the infestor change Zerg would still be performing great against Protoss. Banelings, drops, the snare ability of fungal, infested terrans, and neural parasite are playing huge rolls in the matchup now. Roach-ling aggression early on is shaking up the entire Protoss early game.
I guess my point is, I see this sort of thing happening right in this thread. Protoss players saying "The race is weak by design! We can't get creative. The top players can't figure this out so there's nothing to figure out." Even I feel inclined to think this way based on recent pro results. And T and Z players are here saying "Stop whining and try to figure stuff out. The game's young. Protoss has lots of stuff yet to try." The rolls are totally reversed.
So even though it feels like Protoss is having a hard time right now and the game isn't balanced to me as a Protoss player, I have to sit back and say to the rest of my Brotoss brethren: Let's not whine just yet. We're better than that. Let's try to figure stuff out.
(I will undermine my brilliant and insightful post by just saying this: infestors and marines are still totally OP. blizzard has to fix that crap and it would help a lot in pvz and against 1-1-1 all-in.)
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All this recent TvP domination is just revenge for Inca cheesing out NaDa in the GSL Code S semis a couple months back 
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As a high diamond protoss player who still going about 50/50 in all my match-ups. I say leave things be. If it is really imbalanced, and isn't something that is just affected my the meta game, then another month of games will make is VERY obvious. If not, we'll adapt, and be better players for it.
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EPT
