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On August 12 2011 00:18 fARLEY wrote:
my 2 cents on protoss in general is protoss is by far the weakest race in the game now a days. Zerg has infestors need i say more? Terran, well terran has everything in the game so yah. helions, marines , mards, ghosts, mules, its really a joke. protoss cant do shit if they get emped. OH we have HT and sentries we might win if we micro perfectly!!! :D oh wait terran just got a no skill unit and just emped everything now i loose b.c sentries have no nothing same with HT. oh well. I for see a upcoming patch to buff protoss and or nerf the other 2 races in someway. because right now being a protoss player is being a 12 year old downy kid in the MLB. aka you cant do anything. their my 2cents.
Oh God...
I really hope English isn't your first language.
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There are 2 things to say for me:
1: Protoss isnt Played alot in Korea. The far most played races are Terra and Zerg and so there are more good Terra and Zerg players than toss players
2: Protoss needs to play more diffrent. In my opinion there are just a few styles which were played a long time. Which i mean by that is the 4gate and the Big Lategame attack. During these times Terran and especially Zerg players used to try a lot and different things(for example the nogas Zergstyle by Spanishiwa, the Infestorstyle by Destiny and the mech style by T against P(which is now more uncomman again)) whereas toss only played the 2 big styles. Just some month ago some players started to do their own thing, like Air opening and Blink stalker harassment while terran and zerg were doing that for a long time. And Imo Blink and Archons are examples for things which are being discovered as being good.
So my main point is that Toss needs to discover their race more, while not playing their standart thing(more harassment,more crazy ideas) and the worst thing now would be a Patch. Blizzard should let the patches stay for quite some time to see if there are no other option than fixing the race.
(This is just MY opinion)
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LOL THIS THREAD
Protoss players are like "Its my turn to bitch!"
SHUT
THE
FUCK
UP
SERIOUSLY
If you want to discuss something, discuss new strategies in the strategy forum. It is worthless to manipulate statistics to soothe your ego. PvP Code A finals last season FOR FUCKS SAKES!
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On August 12 2011 00:12 eourcs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:04 Not_That wrote:The argument that Terran players are simply better than Protoss players has to stop. The reason it seems that way is because if the Terran players have more / better tools at their disposal, it will compliment the player well. In your own example you named Byun, who is a former Protoss player and as Protoss he didn't do well at all, then he switched to Terran and proceeded to produce results. The 3 Protoss players that you named (with emphasis on MC and Huk) are not merely 'good Protoss', but they are amazing players, and that is the biggest factor why they have been able to produce the results that they have so far. + Show Spoiler +I have no doubt that if MC was playing any other race he wouldn't be going to the up and down matches, and quite frankly I am worried for Huk as well. Byun played protoss as Bleach in season1, everybody was terrible back then. By now, Byun has played a lot more terran than he has protoss. All I'm saying is that there's really only 3 "amazing" protosses, while theres tons more for terrans. Are you really going to tell me that Alicia, Hongun, Tassadar, Inca, and Sangho are better skill-wise than all the other names that I mentioned. Protoss doesn't have any new blood, it has pretty much stagnated, while solid terrans with great mechanics are coming out every month it seems.
Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all.
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On August 12 2011 00:25 Techno wrote:
LOL THIS THREAD
Protoss players are like "Its my turn to bitch!"
SHUT
THE
FUCK
UP
SERIOUSLY
If you want to discuss something, discuss new strategies in the strategy forum. It is worthless to manipulate statistics to soothe your ego. PvP Code A finals last season FOR FUCKS SAKES!
Well.. whenever people said "zomg NesTea = 3x GSLs, zerg = 4 GSLs + LosirA finalist" then that didn't count for some reason, so why should a PvP Code A final be even close to meaning something?
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Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually.
And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us
After the MC match.
Thats not happening without a reason
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This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected.
However, I am a weak man and will reply.
On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote:
Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it.
The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all.
Protoss win championships.
My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On August 11 2011 23:13 Raine wrote:
This post is going to look very silly when JYP wins code A and Huk wins Code S
Not really. FD and Nestea winning the first 2 Open Seasons still didn't change the fact that the Zerg race were really suffering at the start.
The way I see it nowadays, I REALLY like the new shift into Charglot/Archon. Back it with a few Immortals would make a pretty nasty army. Add that to a few warp prisms with HTs for storm harass, should be interesting.
End of the day, Toss don't have that many players at the high level, so innovation is lacking. Puzzle seems hopeful, and Inca when he's not making mistakes is bloody clever. If we see new players, we'll hopefully see innovative play
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On August 12 2011 00:30 VENDIZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:25 Techno wrote:
LOL THIS THREAD
Protoss players are like "Its my turn to bitch!"
SHUT
THE
FUCK
UP
SERIOUSLY
If you want to discuss something, discuss new strategies in the strategy forum. It is worthless to manipulate statistics to soothe your ego. PvP Code A finals last season FOR FUCKS SAKES! Well.. whenever people said "zomg NesTea = 3x GSLs, zerg = 4 GSLs + LosirA finalist" then that didn't count for some reason, so why should a PvP Code A final be even close to meaning something?
What in the fuck is this response? I don't even...... it doesnt really....... ZOMG!
Your saying that "well I saw some Zerg players bitching about how zerg sucks and they said that NesTea doesnt matter so IMMA USE THAT ARGUMENT HERE"
PROTOSS
YOU ARE KILLING ALL YOUR STREEET CRED
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On August 11 2011 17:32 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:30 GoKu` wrote:On August 11 2011 14:48 MeLo wrote:
I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units. It has nothing to do with the KA removal. Its the fact that Terrans believe that they only have about 20 minutes to win the game otherwise Protoss becomes way to efficient. So a lot of the games come down to 1 base allins 2 base timing pushes or 3 base tempo play. If you watch MVP vs CreatorPrime and bomber vs Killer in the GSL Supertournament, you will see that even though they were far ahead it took both of them about 40 minutes to end their final game. Right now its just a meta game shift. Terrans were complaining for a long time about Protoss, will change their play style and adapt. 3-19 vs korean terran isn't just a metagame shift. Every variation of this has stomped every protoss variation of defending it. Tassadar went into that game knowing his opponent would 1-1-1. He countered it. He lost. What other all in can you say this about?
I can say it about 4gate, 4gate warp prism, 3 gate robo blink, 1 base colossus, baneling bust and I'm sure there are others
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On August 12 2011 00:37 Huggerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:32 Jinivus wrote:On August 11 2011 17:30 GoKu` wrote:On August 11 2011 14:48 MeLo wrote:
I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units. It has nothing to do with the KA removal. Its the fact that Terrans believe that they only have about 20 minutes to win the game otherwise Protoss becomes way to efficient. So a lot of the games come down to 1 base allins 2 base timing pushes or 3 base tempo play. If you watch MVP vs CreatorPrime and bomber vs Killer in the GSL Supertournament, you will see that even though they were far ahead it took both of them about 40 minutes to end their final game. Right now its just a meta game shift. Terrans were complaining for a long time about Protoss, will change their play style and adapt. 3-19 vs korean terran isn't just a metagame shift. Every variation of this has stomped every protoss variation of defending it. Tassadar went into that game knowing his opponent would 1-1-1. He countered it. He lost. What other all in can you say this about? I can say it about 4gate, 4gate warp prism, 3 gate robo blink, 1 base colossus, baneling bust and I'm sure there are others
Blue flame hellions are pretty good. Void ray all ins are epic.
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I think it's definitely a combination of a swift metagame shift and the top tier Korean protosses are simply noticeably worse players (on average) than their zerg and terran counterparts. Obviously MC is a top class player and I would rate him amongst the best in the world, but beyond that I can't help but feel the likes of Alicia, Trickster, Sangho etc are just a step below that top tier. If you compare the best protoss have to offer in comparison with the other two races, I feel that the toss talent pool is far less deep in the GSL. The protoss struggles in Korea certainly aren't a recent trend, and I really think that the skill level of the players is the key factor.
All this is compounded by the most recent shift in the metagame where ZvP has been pretty thoroughly worked out, hence protoss needs to change the way they play. Of course the TvP situation is pretty well known at the moment, with pretty much every toss being completely clueless and/or ignorant into how to play vs the 1/1/1 build in particular. It's up to someone to develop a new way to play the matchups.
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protoss always do risky playing
because they can make units in 5 seconds.
but reasonablely they should make more
how do you expect 20 supply army do well against 25?(one based terran has higher supply no doubted)
maybe sometimes ppl can hold the pushes.
but as players are improving... the protoss can't play the old school style anymore.
User was not warned for this post
Btw
Protoss President 's 2 Championship
2010 Open 3
Defeated OdinMvp, Hyperdub, MarineKing(who does well using marines only that time, recently fell to code A), Jinro, Rain(considered as who only does cheese.). Alongside with Jinro defeated PoltPrime(Polt was busy with his studies and not in a good condiction).
2011 GSL March
Placed in Group A with Mvp, July and teammate Hyperdub, anyway he did not play a match against Mvp.
And a terran switched to protoss lately last year Byun was his terran opponent. Later 2 PvP against Hongun & San made it to final against July again.
Another notable thing is, 1.30 patch applied in GSTL Feb, stim research with 30 more seconds in-game time. Also, new and bigger map introduced in GSL.
GSL May
After 2 matches against Polt who has had 100% winning rate against the protoss president also the largest winning rate against protoss, he was knocked out at Ro32.
Not talking about balance, but exactly MC is not a god as you expected.
Stats show he is not.
Good luck, MC.
I hope you are placed in Up and down matches with Alicia.
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On August 12 2011 00:37 Huggerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:32 Jinivus wrote:On August 11 2011 17:30 GoKu` wrote:On August 11 2011 14:48 MeLo wrote:
I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units. It has nothing to do with the KA removal. Its the fact that Terrans believe that they only have about 20 minutes to win the game otherwise Protoss becomes way to efficient. So a lot of the games come down to 1 base allins 2 base timing pushes or 3 base tempo play. If you watch MVP vs CreatorPrime and bomber vs Killer in the GSL Supertournament, you will see that even though they were far ahead it took both of them about 40 minutes to end their final game. Right now its just a meta game shift. Terrans were complaining for a long time about Protoss, will change their play style and adapt. 3-19 vs korean terran isn't just a metagame shift. Every variation of this has stomped every protoss variation of defending it. Tassadar went into that game knowing his opponent would 1-1-1. He countered it. He lost. What other all in can you say this about? I can say it about 4gate, 4gate warp prism, 3 gate robo blink, 1 base colossus, baneling bust and I'm sure there are others No you can't. Not in pro play. You couldn't be like "I'm going to 4 gate you" "I'm going to baneling bust" play get hardcountered and still win. These all ins have clear counters that can be stopped with scouting. No protoss player has any idea what the fuck to do against it, even if you know its coming at the start of the game. 4 gate? Spines/bunkers/def 4 gate.
Baneling bust? Throw up bunkers and have a tank out. 1/1/1? ???????
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On August 12 2011 00:35 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:30 VENDIZ wrote:On August 12 2011 00:25 Techno wrote:
LOL THIS THREAD
Protoss players are like "Its my turn to bitch!"
SHUT
THE
FUCK
UP
SERIOUSLY
If you want to discuss something, discuss new strategies in the strategy forum. It is worthless to manipulate statistics to soothe your ego. PvP Code A finals last season FOR FUCKS SAKES! Well.. whenever people said "zomg NesTea = 3x GSLs, zerg = 4 GSLs + LosirA finalist" then that didn't count for some reason, so why should a PvP Code A final be even close to meaning something? What in the fuck is this response? I don't even...... it doesnt really....... ZOMG! Your saying that "well I saw some Zerg players bitching about how zerg sucks and they said that NesTea doesnt matter so IMMA USE THAT ARGUMENT HERE" PROTOSS YOU ARE KILLING ALL YOUR STREEET CRED
Are you daft as shit or what? A lot of the time when zergs bitched about balance, people would respond with "olOLoLoL Z > GSL", however the zerg players who kept on bitching said that mentioned fact was irrelevant. Now protoss players are bitching about balance ("having a hard time yada-yada-yada", however you want to phrase it), and you dropped in with a "olOLoLoL P > Code A"..
.. do you still not see how that response made sense?
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On August 11 2011 19:35 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 19:25 ZenithM wrote:
It's nice to compare "Protoss whine" to "Zerg whine" some months ago. I'm not complaining about how bad Protoss seems to be lately (well it does bring boring 1:1:1 stompfest and more TvTs ;D). But there is a key difference:
Protoss is still considered the "easiest, cheesiest" race, even by top players like IdrA.
That's what bothers me. I've never considered Zerg the easiest race when I was seeing them losing a lot, and that all their players were retarded. It's still strange that despite Protoss being beaten by arguably very easily executable builds like 1/1/1 (way harder to defend, let's face it), we always get labeled as cheesy, dumb, slow, bad, and all that.
There must be something wrong design-wise there, right? Yep. The thing is, Greg is obviously to biased/narrow minded to see that its not the players that are cheesy/gimicky/in favor of doing coinflip builds, its just that protoss is designed to play out that way. we dont have a viable harass unit for taking out mineral lines fast (like banelings or hellions) and we cant really do multi pronged attacks because our units are weak in low numbers. what protoss need is: 1. a viable unit for harassment, to utilize the warp prism 2. better access to some of our tech units, like high templars for example. it just doesnt make sense that its soo expensive to get and yet we are absolutley dependant on having it to counter Infestors. I think blizzard should have lowered the tech requirements/costs when they took out KA
DTs, HTs, Sentries, or just zealots, are all completely viable harass units, maybe not as cost effective as hellions or infestors etc. but protoss units cost more in general anyway, what do you expect... Saying protoss doesn't have a unit for taking out mineral lines fast is just ridiculous. They do, it's just you never see protoss players using them because they are obsessed with massing a ball of doom and splitting off units is an alien concept to most protoss, except for defending drops
Do you really want something that can harass quickly, long build time, plenty of gas and dies quickly? Have reapers if you want them, majority of Terran players wouldn't notice they were gone
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I base my response not on my own play (I'm only plat) but on what I've observed in the professional scene. I think this is just an effect of the game's ongoing maturation and evolution. For so long, other races, especially Zerg, didn't know how to deal with common Protoss strategies. Because of that, those Protoss strategies (the death ball, etc.) became even more common. Now, however, the other races are beginning to learn how to deal with those things, and since Protoss was having success with the status quo for so long, they're having a little difficulty adjusting. I can't say for certain, but I would say I'm 90% sure this is a temporary thing. Protoss will eventually learn how to deal with the new strategies facing them, and things will even out.
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On August 12 2011 00:52 Huggerz wrote:
DTs, HTs, Sentries, or just zealots, are all completely viable harass units, maybe not as cost effective as hellions or infestors etc. but protoss units cost more in general anyway, what do you expect... Saying protoss doesn't have a unit for taking out mineral lines fast is just ridiculous. They do, it's just you never see protoss players using them because they are obsessed with massing a ball of doom and splitting off units is an alien concept to most protoss, except for defending drops
There's a reason to why it's an "alien concept" to most protoss... it's because protoss units suck when they are split up compared to when zerg and terran units are split up...
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Protoss is fine as it is. It's just they haven't figured out how to pull out another "dominating" meta-game trend
give it time and the game will evolve with new timings and new maps, eventually you will notice the game fluctuates too much to pinpoint which race is weak
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On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote:
Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually.
And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us
After the MC match.
Thats not happening without a reason
Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss.
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EPT
