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On August 12 2011 01:03 Brainiak wrote:
Sorry that I didnt format this post correctly I am new here and I am not very familiar with the tools which are at my disposal....
read the whole thread, so i think i am allowed to post something.
Honestly this thread made me rage, and i am quite biased, because i play protoss.
However I will try to analyse the situation a bit.
First of all, I think the game has evolved so much since beta, that previous results are not saying anything, only games of the recent metagame shift should be considered.
To the point of terrans and zergs playing better than their protoss counterparts I say, why do you think most people play terran or zerg instead of protoss?
Now I will talk about the situation of pvz, in my opinion its now heavily in favour of zerg. The only way I am winning now is 1 gate exe into 3 gate pressure with chronoboost to punish early thirds into 7 gate +2 blink stalker. Either I kill my opponent before he gets infestors or I will have to heavily outplay him.
Infestors:
have great granted dps
counter blink the greatest strength in pvz for protoss
render outmicroing baneling drops useless
kill sentrys so quickly, another strength of protoss gone
neural parasite high powering units, although you can try to kill the channeling infestor, but that leaves more effort on your part than on zergs
infested terrans have great dps and can only be countered by splash who is needed to kill the zergs army
blizzard designed one real counter to this unit: the high templar
the problem is, feedback has the same range than neural or fungal so in order to kill the infestor before casting the templar has to stand right before your army leaving it vulnerable to pick offs.
stargate play was strong but with the recent spore crawler buff it has become way easier to deal with, its no longer viable to stop a greedy zerg
Now to the situation in pvt:
There is not a great imbalance in pvt midgame, however ghost are super strong against anything protoss can throw at terran, thats a fact. But I feel that the new chargelot+ archon style is very good, until terrans learn to incorporate more marines and ghosts and less marauders into their play.
the 1/1/1 push is undoubtedly imbalanced, it is so hard to hold, and btw i have held 1/1/1 pushes but just barely if my opponents had focus fired my immortals it would be gg. So on high level play it is near unstoppable, because high level player will focus fire
These are my thoughts on that matter
Feel free to comment or quote
Same thing for me regarding Zerg - _ -
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On August 12 2011 01:22 ReaperX wrote:
I think overlord drops are overpowered... You can drop your whole army onto another guys main... Not even Terran can do that and as fast.
Yeah man, motherships are imbalanced. You can recall your entire army into another guys main...
..............
This thread is a compilation of platinum players trying to use their ladder examples/experiences onto pro play.
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United States6959 Posts
On August 12 2011 01:18 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Protoss has simply always been this way. If you look at SC2 and compare it to BW, you'll see a startling amount of similarities, and this is one you see in BW as well. Protoss simply doesn't have the options of the other two races. Harassment is significantly more costly and risky for Protoss, and Protoss really don't have the ability to split up their army effectively because Protoss units are extremely ineffective in small numbers - you need to combine various units or else your army will get rolled. Not only that, but in SC2 Protoss has the worst T1 hands down, meaning that early aggression is pretty much impossible. This makes it a lot harder for Protoss players to adapt to metagame shifts or spice up their play significantly, and it's why you'll probably never see a truly dominant Protoss. We never even got close to a Protoss bonjwa in BW, and I doubt we ever will in SC2. It is really bad to talk this way about this since Zergs and Terrans both don't have a really dominating player and surely not more of them. Sc2 itself or metagame of sc2 so far makes this games really unpredictable and it is really hard for players to be consistent. Nestea does kind of look like the best player of SC2 at the moment but he is not nearly a dominating player.
Zerg has Nestea and Terran has a host of players that are consistently performing well, and the entirety of GSL is being dominated by Terrans. That speaks for itself. Just because we don't have any one dominant player doesn't mean we can't look at trends. Before domination you need consistency, and we're seeing that from Nestea and a large number of Terran players, as well as the Terran race in general. You don't see any consistency from any Protoss at all, which says something. I'm definitely not saying that we have a huge imbalance or anything like that. Who knows, maybe some Protoss revolution will come like Bisu did in BW. All I'm saying is that Protoss has a harder time, just like they did in BW, and there are good reasons for this.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On August 12 2011 01:18 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Protoss has simply always been this way. If you look at SC2 and compare it to BW, you'll see a startling amount of similarities, and this is one you see in BW as well. Protoss simply doesn't have the options of the other two races. Harassment is significantly more costly and risky for Protoss, and Protoss really don't have the ability to split up their army effectively because Protoss units are extremely ineffective in small numbers - you need to combine various units or else your army will get rolled. Not only that, but in SC2 Protoss has the worst T1 hands down, meaning that early aggression is pretty much impossible. This makes it a lot harder for Protoss players to adapt to metagame shifts or spice up their play significantly, and it's why you'll probably never see a truly dominant Protoss. We never even got close to a Protoss bonjwa in BW, and I doubt we ever will in SC2. It is really bad to talk this way about this since Zergs and Terrans both don't have a really dominating player and surely not more of them. Sc2 itself or metagame of sc2 so far makes this games really unpredictable and it is really hard for players to be consistent. Nestea does kind of look like the best player of SC2 at the moment but he is not nearly a dominating player.
Wait, so you don't consider a guy who's won 3 finals, them being a ZvT, ZvP and a ZvZ dominating? Or that he didn't lose a single game in the last season?
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On August 12 2011 01:22 ReaperX wrote:
I think overlord drops are overpowered... You can drop your whole army onto another guys main... Not even Terran can do that and as fast.
i loled.
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On August 12 2011 01:35 RexFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:22 ReaperX wrote:
I think overlord drops are overpowered... You can drop your whole army onto another guys main... Not even Terran can do that and as fast. i loled.
Tyler agrees with him, and I'm inclined to agree too, mass drops just seem to do too much damage and are extremely difficult to stop even when you see them coming.
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Protoss has been underpowered for ages, just took this long for terrans and zergs to learn to play
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On August 12 2011 00:33 Techno wrote:This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply. Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote:
Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it. Show nested quote +The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all. Protoss win championships. My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't.
You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me.
While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races.
Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases.
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ZZZ people always complain cause of one bad season. Things will change guys, back then protoss didnt win anything, dominated for a time and now are having a bad run. Just wait for MC's return
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On August 12 2011 01:16 RexFTW wrote:
According to blizzard research protoss has an advantage against terran,
Have they published any new statistics in the last time? Just found a blog entry from october last year...
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Reason:
Metagame Shifts and Playstyle. When infestors weren't as good in ZvP. PvZ was a breeze for the protoss player tbh. Their playstyle from the start was based around turtling up to 200/200 and now that zergs has figured it out it doesn't work as well anymore.
I think protoss is very vulnerable to early terran pushes though. I do not think it's because of the KA removal but instead because of the power and cost effictiveness of barrack units against gateway units. I then also believe than protoss players are the most liniear and almost never try new things. You might argue that zealot archon is a new style sure, but so is Ling/Infestor, Roach/Infestor, Muta/Ling in the ZvP matchup. I think also protosses underrate drops because warp prisms are so fast that they work perfectly as hit n run or for counter attacks, they also carry the most in the game considering that they can also warp in after they drop off their load.
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Zergs just using tier 3 more. More infestors. Terrans using EMP more.
The same crap we told them to use when they were imba whining about protoss. But we get nerfed anyway?
Warp gate nerf didn't do anything for PvP. Just hurt the other matchups instead. -_- Protoss needs to explore more? What is there left to explore? Carriers? LOL
Or maybe this will be like MC's first run to GSL championship where he won despite low protoss representation and a general cynical attitude by protoss players. (Kind of like season 1 of GSL for zerg players). Though he did it with timing attacks.
On August 12 2011 01:39 -orb- wrote:
Protoss has been underpowered for ages, just took this long for terrans and zergs to learn to play
LOL orb expresses my sentiments exactly :o)
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United States5162 Posts
On August 12 2011 01:40 adalcim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:16 RexFTW wrote:
According to blizzard research protoss has an advantage against terran, Have they published any new statistics in the last time? Just found a blog entry from october last year...
I haven't seen any new statistics, but Browder just recently did an interview where he said all regions have balance within 55% except for Korea where grandmaster Terran are winning more then others.
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mcs return?
you mean he is going to switch race?
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no pvz isnt fine pvt seems to be fine imo
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On August 12 2011 01:41 Olsson wrote:
Reason:
Metagame Shifts and Playstyle. When infestors weren't as good in ZvP. PvZ was a breeze for the protoss player tbh. Their playstyle from the start was based around turtling up to 200/200 and now that zergs has figured it out it doesn't work as well anymore.
I think protoss is very vulnerable to early terran pushes though. I do not think it's because of the KA removal but instead because of the power and cost effictiveness of barrack units against gateway units. I then also believe than protoss players are the most liniear and almost never try new things. You might argue that zealot archon is a new style sure, but so is Ling/Infestor, Roach/Infestor, Muta/Ling in the ZvP matchup. I think also protosses underrate drops because warp prisms are so fast that they work perfectly as hit n run or for counter attacks, they also carry the most in the game considering that they can also warp in after they drop off their load.
I don't agree that protoss players are not innovative, we are all humans and we use whatever tools are at our disposal. Saying that the players are the ones who are lacking in new ideas is just plain silly, it's simple the race, protoss is so linear. We can't open with high templar or dark templar or anything like that, it's just not effective. It's basically 3 options: Gateway units, Collosus tech or Stargate tech.
Warp gates are pathetic they die so so quick not even the best players can make use of them properly, let alone the general protoss player base.
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There are ups and downs. GSL August just happens be during a down. They'll figure something out, just leave it alone.
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We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp.
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On August 12 2011 01:38 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:35 RexFTW wrote:On August 12 2011 01:22 ReaperX wrote:
I think overlord drops are overpowered... You can drop your whole army onto another guys main... Not even Terran can do that and as fast. i loled. Tyler agrees with him, and I'm inclined to agree too, mass drops just seem to do too much damage and are extremely difficult to stop even when you see them coming.
Well Protoss deathball is extremely difficult to stop, but I dont see you complaining about that.
If you are having trouble with drops here are some things to do:
Dont block your ramp so much so that your units can move freely into your base.
Position your buildings so there is a clear path from the ramp to where a drop zone will be.
Get blink
Place some cannons in the back of your base (HuK style)
Spread out your tech across all of your bases.
Build extra gateways so that you can save stalker warp ins to shoot down incoming overlords.
If you do all of these things and they do not work then you have room to complain!
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On August 12 2011 01:47 pezzaperry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:41 Olsson wrote:
Reason:
Metagame Shifts and Playstyle. When infestors weren't as good in ZvP. PvZ was a breeze for the protoss player tbh. Their playstyle from the start was based around turtling up to 200/200 and now that zergs has figured it out it doesn't work as well anymore.
I think protoss is very vulnerable to early terran pushes though. I do not think it's because of the KA removal but instead because of the power and cost effictiveness of barrack units against gateway units. I then also believe than protoss players are the most liniear and almost never try new things. You might argue that zealot archon is a new style sure, but so is Ling/Infestor, Roach/Infestor, Muta/Ling in the ZvP matchup. I think also protosses underrate drops because warp prisms are so fast that they work perfectly as hit n run or for counter attacks, they also carry the most in the game considering that they can also warp in after they drop off their load. I don't agree that protoss players are not innovative, we are all humans and we use whatever tools are at our disposal. Saying that the players are the ones who are lacking in new ideas is just plain silly, it's simple the race, protoss is so linear. We can't open with high templar or dark templar or anything like that, it's just not effective. It's basically 3 options: Gateway units, Collosus tech or Stargate tech. Warp gates are pathetic they die so so quick not even the best players can make use of them properly, let alone the general protoss player base.
Not all humans are the same, and there is obviously similar traits between most protoss players. Just like similar traits between most terran players, hence terran players are so superior on the korean server(numbers help to)
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EPT
