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On August 12 2011 00:50 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:37 Huggerz wrote:On August 11 2011 17:32 Jinivus wrote:On August 11 2011 17:30 GoKu` wrote:On August 11 2011 14:48 MeLo wrote:
I think PvZ is fine but many Protoss players are struggling with PvT and part of the reason is the KA removal.
You also see more and more early game timings against Protoss (most notably 1/1/1 allin, Losira roach-ling) which pretty much abuses Protoss early game vulnerability where they lack units. It has nothing to do with the KA removal. Its the fact that Terrans believe that they only have about 20 minutes to win the game otherwise Protoss becomes way to efficient. So a lot of the games come down to 1 base allins 2 base timing pushes or 3 base tempo play. If you watch MVP vs CreatorPrime and bomber vs Killer in the GSL Supertournament, you will see that even though they were far ahead it took both of them about 40 minutes to end their final game. Right now its just a meta game shift. Terrans were complaining for a long time about Protoss, will change their play style and adapt. 3-19 vs korean terran isn't just a metagame shift. Every variation of this has stomped every protoss variation of defending it. Tassadar went into that game knowing his opponent would 1-1-1. He countered it. He lost. What other all in can you say this about? I can say it about 4gate, 4gate warp prism, 3 gate robo blink, 1 base colossus, baneling bust and I'm sure there are others No you can't. Not in pro play. You couldn't be like "I'm going to 4 gate you" "I'm going to baneling bust" play get hardcountered and still win. These all ins have clear counters that can be stopped with scouting. No protoss player has any idea what the fuck to do against it, even if you know its coming at the start of the game. 4 gate? Spines/bunkers/def 4 gate. Baneling bust? Throw up bunkers and have a tank out. 1/1/1? ???????
When do pros ever tell their opponents what they are doing or willingly let them know at all? If everyone knew what their opponent was doing of course they would rarely lose... Pros still lose to stuff like baneling busts, 1 base blink etc. even when they scout the possiblity of it same as 1-1-1... 1-1-1 build is just way ahead of Protoss defence of it, it is not unbeatable. No one seems to consider that many Terran players are just straight better than Protoss players for various reasons. I don't know why you're asking anyone in this thread for a way to deal with it, at best you will probably find a couple of Masters and the rest probably lower leagues
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On August 12 2011 00:59 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote:
Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually.
And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us
After the MC match.
Thats not happening without a reason Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss.
Then he goes into Ro8, face a Terran and lose 2 games to the 1-1-1 all in.
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On August 12 2011 00:56 Darneck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:52 Huggerz wrote:
DTs, HTs, Sentries, or just zealots, are all completely viable harass units, maybe not as cost effective as hellions or infestors etc. but protoss units cost more in general anyway, what do you expect... Saying protoss doesn't have a unit for taking out mineral lines fast is just ridiculous. They do, it's just you never see protoss players using them because they are obsessed with massing a ball of doom and splitting off units is an alien concept to most protoss, except for defending drops
There's a reason to why it's an "alien concept" to most protoss... it's because protoss units suck when they are split up compared to when zerg and terran units are split up...
Thanks for that in depth analysis, you've clearly thought about it extensively
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Sorry that I didnt format this post correctly I am new here and I am not very familiar with the tools which are at my disposal....
read the whole thread, so i think i am allowed to post something.
Honestly this thread made me rage, and i am quite biased, because i play protoss.
However I will try to analyse the situation a bit.
First of all, I think the game has evolved so much since beta, that previous results are not saying anything, only games of the recent metagame shift should be considered.
To the point of terrans and zergs playing better than their protoss counterparts I say, why do you think most people play terran or zerg instead of protoss?
Now I will talk about the situation of pvz, in my opinion its now heavily in favour of zerg. The only way I am winning now is 1 gate exe into 3 gate pressure with chronoboost to punish early thirds into 7 gate +2 blink stalker. Either I kill my opponent before he gets infestors or I will have to heavily outplay him.
Infestors:
have great granted dps
counter blink the greatest strength in pvz for protoss
render outmicroing baneling drops useless
kill sentrys so quickly, another strength of protoss gone
neural parasite high powering units, although you can try to kill the channeling infestor, but that leaves more effort on your part than on zergs
infested terrans have great dps and can only be countered by splash who is needed to kill the zergs army
blizzard designed one real counter to this unit: the high templar
the problem is, feedback has the same range than neural or fungal so in order to kill the infestor before casting the templar has to stand right before your army leaving it vulnerable to pick offs.
stargate play was strong but with the recent spore crawler buff it has become way easier to deal with, its no longer viable to stop a greedy zerg
Now to the situation in pvt:
There is not a great imbalance in pvt midgame, however ghost are super strong against anything protoss can throw at terran, thats a fact. But I feel that the new chargelot+ archon style is very good, until terrans learn to incorporate more marines and ghosts and less marauders into their play.
the 1/1/1 push is undoubtedly imbalanced, it is so hard to hold, and btw i have held 1/1/1 pushes but just barely if my opponents had focus fired my immortals it would be gg. So on high level play it is near unstoppable, because high level player will focus fire
These are my thoughts on that matter
Feel free to comment or quote
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On August 12 2011 00:59 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote:
Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually.
And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us
After the MC match.
Thats not happening without a reason Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss.
I didn't see the games but I'm pretty sure the 2 games DRG lost he 6 pooled once and took a risky gold base in the other, and I'm pretty sure that's not the way you're supposed to play zerg vs protoss
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On August 12 2011 01:03 Huggerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:56 Darneck wrote:On August 12 2011 00:52 Huggerz wrote:
DTs, HTs, Sentries, or just zealots, are all completely viable harass units, maybe not as cost effective as hellions or infestors etc. but protoss units cost more in general anyway, what do you expect... Saying protoss doesn't have a unit for taking out mineral lines fast is just ridiculous. They do, it's just you never see protoss players using them because they are obsessed with massing a ball of doom and splitting off units is an alien concept to most protoss, except for defending drops
There's a reason to why it's an "alien concept" to most protoss... it's because protoss units suck when they are split up compared to when zerg and terran units are split up... Thanks for that in depth analysis, you've clearly thought about it extensively
Yet he remains more correct than you.
You obviously don't play Protoss if you think we haven't been trying everything possible to get around these things. Protoss players obsessed about the deathball is at least 4-5 months old now, drop it.
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The Terran 1-1-1 allin is very hard to stop and I feel that protoss is lost in the zvp matchup.
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Meh lots of toss players are struggling atm due to zerg learning how to stop timing/infesotr buff for mid-late game and terran learning how strong there timings are.
I for one expect ether nani/MC to come with a new way to play PvT/Z or for blizzard to buff stalker to be on par with mara/roach. But i tend to believe that won't be needed and the situation will just fix itself.
It idd makes me sad as a toss player to have no toss to watch and those who i do watch win only be all ining. But there are loads of great toss in EU atm you can watch them... Bischu ( spelling, i proly mest up the name  , Socke, MaNa, Nightend , Hasuobs... all of them are doing fairly well if they don't face korean T/Z and there aren't that many of them in EU expect for some major tournament where there are like 3 or 4 of them.
I can only imagine GSL will take action themself in like 1 or 2 season if nothing changes since TvTSL is inc and they will drop even more viewers... or just think positive and say that HuK will own Bomber and MVP then win the whole shit.
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Ouchhhh This thread hurts me to read. The amount of anger, cynicism, and overall lack of civil spirit is kind of painful.
Honestly, I think PvZ is fine. Protoss needs to use HT more effectively to deal with infestors, and in general learn to not deathball -.-
However, although for the longest time I thought PvT was fine, and just required some innvoative play, I'm seeing a marked and radical slant in win rates towards the terran in that matchup. I can theory craft all I want, but I'm not a Korean Protoss and what I say will probably be wrong, but I really think that a solution or a patch will come out by next GSL season.
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On August 12 2011 01:07 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:03 Huggerz wrote:On August 12 2011 00:56 Darneck wrote:On August 12 2011 00:52 Huggerz wrote:
DTs, HTs, Sentries, or just zealots, are all completely viable harass units, maybe not as cost effective as hellions or infestors etc. but protoss units cost more in general anyway, what do you expect... Saying protoss doesn't have a unit for taking out mineral lines fast is just ridiculous. They do, it's just you never see protoss players using them because they are obsessed with massing a ball of doom and splitting off units is an alien concept to most protoss, except for defending drops
There's a reason to why it's an "alien concept" to most protoss... it's because protoss units suck when they are split up compared to when zerg and terran units are split up... Thanks for that in depth analysis, you've clearly thought about it extensively Yet he remains more correct than you. You obviously don't play Protoss if you think we haven't been trying everything possible to get around these things. Protoss players obsessed about the deathball is at least 4-5 months old now, drop it.
I'll take the word of a random poster on Team Liquid then, ignoring 90%+ pro level games I watch on streams, GSL, MLG, YouTube. Seems legit
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On August 12 2011 01:02 Kammalleri wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:59 -Archangel- wrote:On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote:
Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually.
And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us
After the MC match.
Thats not happening without a reason Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss. Then he goes into Ro8, face a Terran and lose 2 games to the 1-1-1 all in.
Complain about that when it happens, not before.
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United States6959 Posts
Protoss has simply always been this way. If you look at SC2 and compare it to BW, you'll see a startling amount of similarities, and this is one you see in BW as well. Protoss simply doesn't have the options of the other two races. Harassment is significantly more costly and risky for Protoss, and Protoss really don't have the ability to split up their army effectively because Protoss units are extremely ineffective in small numbers - you need to combine various units or else your army will get rolled. Not only that, but in SC2 Protoss has the worst T1 hands down, meaning that early aggression is pretty much impossible. This makes it a lot harder for Protoss players to adapt to metagame shifts or spice up their play significantly, and it's why you'll probably never see a truly dominant Protoss. We never even got close to a Protoss bonjwa in BW, and I doubt we ever will in SC2.
I'll take the word of a random poster on Team Liquid then, ignoring 90%+ pro level games I watch on streams, GSL, MLG, YouTube. Seems legit
If you honestly think that Protoss players just aren't experimenting you're being incredibly dense on purpose. It's not like you have different types of players playing each race - the player pools are big enough to where significant differences in racial performance throughout the professional scene isn't simply due to a couple bad players. It's a pretty well known fact that Protoss has by far the least harass options - any harassment costs the most for the least effectiveness. Unless you eat up an entire Warp-In cycle, you're only going to have 4 Zealots to harass a mineral line, and when workers can just run away from Zealots to any number of units that'll crush a small group of Zealots (including simply Stimmed Marines), then your drop was completely ineffective. Not only that, DT harassment revolved solely around your opponent making a mistake. If they don't have detection at their base, this is the only time you can do a significant amount of damage. Even then, workers can just run away from DT's since their melee units that move slow enough to let workers get away. Finally, DT harassment is incredibly expensive and is a tech choice that is mostly definitely NOT on the way to anything else like other harassment options are. What else are you going to harass with? Storm drops? Another incredibly expensive harassment technique that's effectiveness is limited by energy and your opponent not running away workers in time. After all of this we can just talk about how the Warp Prism isn't a practical unit at all - it costs 200 minerals (which is a lot, especially early game) and it takes up time from making Observers and Colossi. On top of this is the fact that it has the fortitude of a paper airplane.
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Just realized something: I apologize to the creator of this thread for encouraging the balance discussion that originally should not belong in that threat. Sorry 
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On August 12 2011 01:07 Darneck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:59 -Archangel- wrote:On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote:
Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually.
And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us
After the MC match.
Thats not happening without a reason Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss. I didn't see the games but I'm pretty sure the 2 games DRG lost he 6 pooled once and took a risky gold base in the other, and I'm pretty sure that's not the way you're supposed to play zerg vs protoss
6 pools didn't change much. He didn't lose the game because of 6 pool, he lost it to how awesome JYC was with his prism play. And if JYC didn't scout him immediately in that game he would have straight up lost that game. 6 pool is a good choice on that map if you want to play the odds.
As for other game, DRG done that before and won. I am sure he would not do something like that in a really important clutch game unless he though this would get him ahead and not behind. Again, he lost because of poor scouting and not gold base. Do watch games before bashing a really good Toss player. I play Zerg, I follow Zerg pros and I love DRG most of all the Zergs in the world but game 2 when JYC done that prism play I could not but cheer for him.
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On August 12 2011 01:10 Aterons_toss wrote:Meh lots of toss players are struggling atm due to zerg learning how to stop timing/infesotr buff for mid-late game and terran learning how strong there timings are. I for one expect ether nani/MC to come with a new way to play PvT/Z or for blizzard to buff stalker to be on par with mara/roach. But i tend to believe that won't be needed and the situation will just fix itself. It idd makes me sad as a toss player to have no toss to watch and those who i do watch win only be all ining. But there are loads of great toss in EU atm you can watch them... Bischu ( spelling, i proly mest up the name , Socke, MaNa, Nightend , Hasuobs... all of them are doing fairly well if they don't face korean T/Z and there aren't that many of them in EU expect for some major tournament where there are like 3 or 4 of them. I can only imagine GSL will take action themself in like 1 or 2 season if nothing changes since TvTSL is inc and they will drop even more viewers... or just think positive and say that HuK will own Bomber and MVP then win the whole shit.
Your saying a stalker is worse than a Roach....
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According to blizzard research protoss has an advantage against terran, which would seem to indicate that they should be doing well as there are so many terrans in the GSL. Apparently this does not hold true at the progamer level though.
Perhaps heart of the swarm will give protoss a nice option other than forcefields for the early game. 
I would hang in there as a toss. Season 1 GSL looked very grim for Zerg, but fruitdealer won!
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On August 12 2011 01:14 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:07 Darneck wrote:On August 12 2011 00:59 -Archangel- wrote:On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote:
Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually.
And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us
After the MC match.
Thats not happening without a reason Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss. I didn't see the games but I'm pretty sure the 2 games DRG lost he 6 pooled once and took a risky gold base in the other, and I'm pretty sure that's not the way you're supposed to play zerg vs protoss 6 pools didn't change much. He didn't lose the game because of 6 pool, he lost it to how awesome JYC was with his prism play. And if JYC didn't scout him immediately in that game he would have straight up lost that game. 6 pool is a good choice on that map if you want to play the odds. As for other game, DRG done that before and won. I am sure he would not do something like that in a really important clutch game unless he though this would get him ahead and not behind. Again, he lost because of poor scouting and not gold base. Do watch games before bashing a really good Toss player. I play Zerg, I follow Zerg pros and I love DRG most of all the Zergs in the world but game 2 when JYC done that prism play I could not but cheer for him.
I wasn't bashing him, just said that DRG didn't play the way he should have from what I've read, everyone's saying that those 2 games were pretty much the sloppiest games from DRG ever.
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On August 12 2011 01:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Protoss has simply always been this way. If you look at SC2 and compare it to BW, you'll see a startling amount of similarities, and this is one you see in BW as well. Protoss simply doesn't have the options of the other two races. Harassment is significantly more costly and risky for Protoss, and Protoss really don't have the ability to split up their army effectively because Protoss units are extremely ineffective in small numbers - you need to combine various units or else your army will get rolled. Not only that, but in SC2 Protoss has the worst T1 hands down, meaning that early aggression is pretty much impossible. This makes it a lot harder for Protoss players to adapt to metagame shifts or spice up their play significantly, and it's why you'll probably never see a truly dominant Protoss. We never even got close to a Protoss bonjwa in BW, and I doubt we ever will in SC2.
It is really bad to talk this way about this since Zergs and Terrans both don't have a really dominating player and surely not more of them. Sc2 itself or metagame of sc2 so far makes this games really unpredictable and it is really hard for players to be consistent. Nestea does kind of look like the best player of SC2 at the moment but he is not nearly a dominating player.
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On August 12 2011 01:17 Darneck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:14 -Archangel- wrote:On August 12 2011 01:07 Darneck wrote:On August 12 2011 00:59 -Archangel- wrote:On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote:
Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually.
And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us
After the MC match.
Thats not happening without a reason Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss. I didn't see the games but I'm pretty sure the 2 games DRG lost he 6 pooled once and took a risky gold base in the other, and I'm pretty sure that's not the way you're supposed to play zerg vs protoss 6 pools didn't change much. He didn't lose the game because of 6 pool, he lost it to how awesome JYC was with his prism play. And if JYC didn't scout him immediately in that game he would have straight up lost that game. 6 pool is a good choice on that map if you want to play the odds. As for other game, DRG done that before and won. I am sure he would not do something like that in a really important clutch game unless he though this would get him ahead and not behind. Again, he lost because of poor scouting and not gold base. Do watch games before bashing a really good Toss player. I play Zerg, I follow Zerg pros and I love DRG most of all the Zergs in the world but game 2 when JYC done that prism play I could not but cheer for him. I wasn't bashing him, just said that DRG didn't play the way he should have from what I've read, everyone's saying that those 2 games were pretty much the sloppiest games from DRG ever.
I do not agree. People are used to DRG dominating his opponents and winning easy. So when he loses Zergs are going to say he played sloppy and toss in their current whiny state of mind are going to say the same so it wouldn't look like Toss is not weak.
I was disappointed DRG didn't win because he was the last Code A player I cared about but I will not disrespect JYC play and claim it wasn't his great play that won him the games.
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I think overlord drops are overpowered... You can drop your whole army onto another guys main... Not even Terran can do that and as fast.
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EPT
