|
On August 12 2011 01:40 adalcim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:16 RexFTW wrote:
According to blizzard research protoss has an advantage against terran, Have they published any new statistics in the last time? Just found a blog entry from october last year...
This is what a blizzard mod said on the forums a couple of days ago
I disagree. At MLG Anaheim just a few days ago, there were more Protoss players than the other two races, and across all matches, Protoss win percentages were very close to 50%.
here is the link
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2973250113#5
|
On August 12 2011 01:39 Not_That wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:33 Techno wrote:This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply. On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote:
Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it. The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all. Protoss win championships. My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't. You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me. While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races. Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases.
This discussion is going in a circle. We both have our opinions and we're not willing to change it. You think Terrans are successful only because they play terran, and I think terran players are successful because they are better than their protoss counterparts. That's fine, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Waiting a year is perfectly reasonable. It's not like protosses have 0% winrate in every matchup. If you look at the international statistics (the korean don't mean much because they only factor in GSL, which is not a big sample size), I think protoss still wins around 47% and 46% of the time in PvT and PvZ respectively. That's not great, but definitely not enough to warrant a balance change. Even if you look at the Korea, I don't think it's bad enough to warrant an immediate change. If protoss was winning 10-20% in every matchup for an extended period of time, then yes I think a change would be in order. I don't like this constant knee-jerk reaction everytime a race does bad for a short period of time that's prevalent in the SC2 community.
Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:39 -orb- wrote:
Protoss has been underpowered for ages, just took this long for terrans and zergs to learn to play LOL orb expresses my sentiments exactly :o)
Yeah because orb totally isn't biased at all and never complains when he loses....
|
stalkers are too weak
almost everything terran is too good, especially mules and marines.
inject larvae is too good
new one: infestors too good
most of this has been true since beta but instead of fixing these basic issues apparently the bunker is the source of all evil and will get changed every patch.
also ultralisks should be immune to neural parasite so they won't get neuraled in zvz because hive zvz is the most standard thing ever
and we liked metalopolis because its a macro map so we made slag pits which is even more macro!
tl;dr blizzard doesn't know what the shit they're doing
|
On August 12 2011 01:28 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:18 -Archangel- wrote:On August 12 2011 01:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Protoss has simply always been this way. If you look at SC2 and compare it to BW, you'll see a startling amount of similarities, and this is one you see in BW as well. Protoss simply doesn't have the options of the other two races. Harassment is significantly more costly and risky for Protoss, and Protoss really don't have the ability to split up their army effectively because Protoss units are extremely ineffective in small numbers - you need to combine various units or else your army will get rolled. Not only that, but in SC2 Protoss has the worst T1 hands down, meaning that early aggression is pretty much impossible. This makes it a lot harder for Protoss players to adapt to metagame shifts or spice up their play significantly, and it's why you'll probably never see a truly dominant Protoss. We never even got close to a Protoss bonjwa in BW, and I doubt we ever will in SC2. It is really bad to talk this way about this since Zergs and Terrans both don't have a really dominating player and surely not more of them. Sc2 itself or metagame of sc2 so far makes this games really unpredictable and it is really hard for players to be consistent. Nestea does kind of look like the best player of SC2 at the moment but he is not nearly a dominating player. Zerg has Nestea and Terran has a host of players that are consistently performing well, and the entirety of GSL is being dominated by Terrans. That speaks for itself. Just because we don't have any one dominant player doesn't mean we can't look at trends. Before domination you need consistency, and we're seeing that from Nestea and a large number of Terran players, as well as the Terran race in general. You don't see any consistency from any Protoss at all, which says something. I'm definitely not saying that we have a huge imbalance or anything like that. Who knows, maybe some Protoss revolution will come like Bisu did in BW. All I'm saying is that Protoss has a harder time, just like they did in BW, and there are good reasons for this.
No they are not. Nestea is one Zerg that is winning anything and he is not consistent enough to be considered a dominating player. He won his 2nd GSL title and then lost both supertournament and world championships. He did win convincingly in last GSL but he didn't meet any strong terrans or toss in his run. And anyways one player does not make an argument for balance. And this is Losira's first good run in GSL. No other Zergs have done shit in GSL (no 1st open season is not a measurement for anything but to see how bad they all were back then).
Terrans arguably best player is IMMvP who dropped to Code A!! MMA couldn't get through Code A normally. Bomber that has hyped as hell didn't do shit so far. No terrans are consistently dominating (not to mention all the older "good" terrans are now code A or Code B including Jinro). Where is MKP?! In comparison Polt/Optimus was crap before. He got crushed by Jinro when he claimed he would beat him on camera. He learned to play.
And if we look beyond GSL toss are doing fine, actually better then Zergs if we go way back to look at many tournaments. You can say, but GSL is the best, others don't matter.
Well tell that to many people here whining about balance at THEIR level or play. If their level of play matters for their argument then Tier 2 and Tier 3 tournaments (as opposed to GSL being Tier 1) matter as well. If we want to look all over Terrans done the best, then Toss and then Zerg.
This GSL only shows that Terran players have found an effective way to combat both Toss and Zerg. If anything it talks about Terran being OP, not toss being UP. But metagame for this game is not over. Things will change each month. Stop whining.
|
Protoss players need to have perfect macro and micro to win a game. Where Zerg and Terran really only need one of those aspects to be 100% perfect, and the others can float around 90-95%.
Look at Alicia's game, missed on FF by 1 square and its immediately GG. No other mechanic is like this in SC2.
|
On August 12 2011 01:30 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:18 -Archangel- wrote:On August 12 2011 01:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Protoss has simply always been this way. If you look at SC2 and compare it to BW, you'll see a startling amount of similarities, and this is one you see in BW as well. Protoss simply doesn't have the options of the other two races. Harassment is significantly more costly and risky for Protoss, and Protoss really don't have the ability to split up their army effectively because Protoss units are extremely ineffective in small numbers - you need to combine various units or else your army will get rolled. Not only that, but in SC2 Protoss has the worst T1 hands down, meaning that early aggression is pretty much impossible. This makes it a lot harder for Protoss players to adapt to metagame shifts or spice up their play significantly, and it's why you'll probably never see a truly dominant Protoss. We never even got close to a Protoss bonjwa in BW, and I doubt we ever will in SC2. It is really bad to talk this way about this since Zergs and Terrans both don't have a really dominating player and surely not more of them. Sc2 itself or metagame of sc2 so far makes this games really unpredictable and it is really hard for players to be consistent. Nestea does kind of look like the best player of SC2 at the moment but he is not nearly a dominating player. Wait, so you don't consider a guy who's won 3 finals, them being a ZvT, ZvP and a ZvZ dominating? Or that he didn't lose a single game in the last season?
If he won them one after another then you could claim that. If he beat good players in each of them you could claim that. If it is false that he almost didn't get to Ro16 in current GSL then you could claim that.
In SCBW there were many dominating players. There are none such in SC2 at the moment. Nestea accomplishment make him the best player but not a dominating one. He is not Michael Jordan of Sc2 and he is not Federer of SC2.
And even if he was it would only mean he is OP, not Zerg. One person does nothing to prove or disprove anything.
|
On August 12 2011 01:40 Dante08 wrote:
ZZZ people always complain cause of one bad season. Things will change guys, back then protoss didnt win anything, dominated for a time and now are having a bad run. Just wait for MC's return
Protoss have never dominated anything.
|
On August 12 2011 02:07 -Archangel- wrote:
This GSL only shows that Terran players have found an effective way to combat both Toss and Zerg. If anything it talks about Terran being OP, not toss being UP. But metagame for this game is not over. Things will change each month. Stop whining.
You aren't doing yourself any favours here 
Most Korean players are Terran, so most PvX games are PvT. If Terran is overpowered, then Protoss will lose a lot of their games and seem underpowered. People are complaining far more about 1-1-1 than any Zerg build, it should be noted, which seems to indicate a Terran imbalance more than a Protoss imbalance.
Of course, we had a ZvZ finals last season, but that way lies madness as you can then get stuck in arguments starting with things like: "That was before the BFH craze" or "Nestea is so much better than everyone else that he can overcome racial imbalances" and so on.
Not saying that's what I think - I believe it's too early to come to a confident conclusion, contrary to popular belief in this thread - but you could get mired in a bog of "balance discussion" here.
|
Fact : A month ago, suddenly protoss became the weakest race and only balance changes can solve that.
Let's not try to be a good TL member and let's keep whining that our dear GSL protoss players are in a slump. I mean come on, there is absolutely no way that the game is balanced when one race is doing very poorly compared to the other two.
All these zergs players telling us to stfu just don't understand what it's like to lose like that. We have the best players and the best strategies because P is obviously the most discovered race, but we still can't do squat because of our shitty units.
TL agrees with that, otherwise they would not let all these bnet-like balance threads open. Whenever Z or T had troubles, a couple of days later it was fixed. It's now been several weeks for P players, and they're still doing poorly. I don't know what additionnal proof you guys need to understand that P needs help.
|
On August 12 2011 02:16 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:40 Dante08 wrote:
ZZZ people always complain cause of one bad season. Things will change guys, back then protoss didnt win anything, dominated for a time and now are having a bad run. Just wait for MC's return Protoss have never dominated anything.
What happened in SCBW does not apply in SC2.
|
On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote:
We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp.
What...?! Ghosts counter every protoss unit. Dead serious. How do you lose lategame to Protoss?
|
I think this is no coincidence, and I assume Protoss (in Korea that is) will keep dragging behind just like in Brood War.
However, for me as a spectator, this is good news simply because any PvX match up are the least fun games to watch IMO, so the more TvZ, TvT and ZvZ, the happier I get.
Edit: The skill ceiling for Protoss is faster to reach but also lower than f.e. Zerg, so when Zergs like Nestea and the beasts that will soon come forth in Korea starts to pass the P ceiling and beyond, Blizzard will have tough time balancing. This was visible in Brood war aswell, but it took so many years for the perfect Zerg and Terran to enter the scene, and with Sc2's overall lowered skill ceiling this will be seen much faster, and, the balancing will be nigh impossible.
Brood War just seemed balanced IMO just because no one could reach the ceiling. so it was possible for the better player to outplay his opponent, while I assume win ratios like those of Flash will not be possible in Sc2.
|
On August 12 2011 02:17 MandoRelease wrote:
Fact : A month ago, suddenly protoss became the weakest race and only balance changes can solve that.
Let's not try to be a good TL member and let's keep whining that our dear GSL protoss players are in a slump. I mean come on, there is absolutely no way that the game is balanced when one race is doing very poorly compared to the other two.
All these zergs players telling us to stfu just don't understand what it's like to lose like that. We have the best players and the best strategies because P is obviously the most discovered race, but we still can't do squat because of our shitty units.
TL agrees with that, otherwise they would not let all these bnet-like balance threads open. Whenever Z or T had troubles, a couple of days later it was fixed. It's now been several weeks for P players, and they're still doing poorly. I don't know what additionnal proof you guys need to understand that P needs help.
Sarcasm doesn't help anyone, and just makes you look smarmy. Grow up, please.
Zerg has definetely had their share of whining in the past, and Terran has had the majority of GSL competitors since it's beginning. I'm not surprised it's Protoss' turn to complain, justified or not.
|
the assumption that a protoss player will have perfect force fields in order for protoss to be balanced with the other races, esp. in the early mid game is shiite imho. ff's should be a supplement not a requirement in the balance equasion.
|
On August 12 2011 02:17 MandoRelease wrote:
Fact : A month ago, suddenly protoss became the weakest race and only balance changes can solve that.
Let's not try to be a good TL member and let's keep whining that our dear GSL protoss players are in a slump. I mean come on, there is absolutely no way that the game is balanced when one race is doing very poorly compared to the other two.
All these zergs players telling us to stfu just don't understand what it's like to lose like that. We have the best players and the best strategies because P is obviously the most discovered race, but we still can't do squat because of our shitty units.
TL agrees with that, otherwise they would not let all these bnet-like balance threads open. Whenever Z or T had troubles, a couple of days later it was fixed. It's now been several weeks for P players, and they're still doing poorly. I don't know what additionnal proof you guys need to understand that P needs help.
What are you smoking? The only thing that was fixed like that for Zerg was Reaper 5 rax opening. Terran got a fast fix against Ultra cleave.
There is no facts here that you claim, only your imagination at work.
|
Seems like protoss gameplay has almost become stagnant as of late. Rarely do you see any unique harass or strats come from protoss anymore. It's almost always still just the typical death-ball strat.
Where are the HT drops? I don't see why this hasn't made an appearance in SC2 yet. You could easily wipe out a whole mineral line or 2 if opponents don't react really quickly.
|
On August 12 2011 00:59 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote:
Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually.
And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us
After the MC match.
Thats not happening without a reason Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss.
is there another parallel universe where JYC crushed DRG....cuz to me it looked like he won by the skin of his teeth
|
On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote:
We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp.
This is such a stupid argument. I remember a time when one base all ins vs Zerg were also explained as Zerg kills us late game. Then a couple of pros started to play a macro Terran late game style and it was so far from the truth just as all Zergs claimed at the time.
|
On August 12 2011 02:25 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 00:59 -Archangel- wrote:On August 12 2011 00:33 Crying wrote:
Code A PVP Finals happened just because these 2 protosses outskilled alot of people in Code A not because the race is godlike,its bad actually.
And i hope more progamers come and say what they think about protoss,because the future will just make the race less and less viable to Terran and Zerg.>
Slayers_Alicia@Twitter : David Kim....save us
After the MC match.
Thats not happening without a reason Tell that to JYC, I am not sure he heard your noob reason while dismantling DRG today the way you are supposed to play Toss. is there another parallel universe where JYC crushed DRG....cuz to me it looked like he won by the skin of his teeth
2nd game he would have won easily if he continued to scout with ill phoenix like he did for most of the game. He should not have been so surprised by 10 broodlords.
3rd game he won easily, not sure what you are talking about.
And DRG is probably the most talented Zerg player in the world after Nestea, JYC winning like he did meant more then beating someone like Idra 5:0
|
On August 12 2011 02:26 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote:
We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp. This is such a stupid argument. I remember a time when one base all ins vs Zerg were also explained as Zerg kills us late game. Then a couple of pros started to play a macro Terran late game style and it was so far from the truth just as all Zergs claimed at the time.
Also, if this is the case then Blizzard still needs to patch the game, as even if there is a 50% winrate in each match-up, if Terran has to win before the X minute mark, the game has deep design flaws.
EDIT: Just making sure that I AGREE with Archangel and DISAGREE with Wasteweiser (what a name, btw) before people get confused and think I am refuting Archangel's point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
