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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:45 eourcs wrote: He's saying that you can't lose to protoss lategame as terran because of ghosts and i'm saying that's not the case...... I agree. I think late game protoss probably has an edge, when toss has teched up it's very tough for terran. | ||
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hysterial
United States2044 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star. Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results. He gets knocked out in the Ro32 in the hardest tourney in the world and he's slipping. You people are retarded. Hell oGs should probably just drop him, he has no chance anymore right? How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion. As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC? MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom. | ||
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Kammalleri
Canada613 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:47 starbreaker10 wrote: ^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT It takes a lot of control, macro and an inane strategic mind to make marines tank and banshees on 1 base and push across the map as a ball to siege the natural. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star. Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results. Stars don't matter when your average Terran/Zerg consistently beats average Protoss. It has nothing to do with "stars." Nestea/MVP/Losira/Bomber/etc. are great players, but when I see mediocre players take out MC, who have much slower reaction time, macro that slip from time to time and sometimes make terrible decisions, something is definitely wrong. | ||
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Cyrak
Canada536 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:33 eourcs wrote: Maybe you should ask Hasuobs, who literally never loses PvT once he gets 3-4 bases and templar out, even if he is ridiculously far behind. Hasuobs rarely plays Koreans, thus this means absolutely nothing. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On August 12 2011 01:39 Not_That wrote: You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me. While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races. Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases. No Im not making the claim that Protoss players are worse than anyone. Where did I mention Terran? I'm saying we don't need Blizzards intervention. You should think that way, it would help you improve more. Noobs in this thread don't even fucking know. If you were all good Masters players and calmly said specific things without over exagerating than maybe I could take you seriously, but you all act like its so obvious that Protoss sucks fucking ass, but from my perspective Protoss is doing just fine. Terran is doing great in the GM leagues and in GSL, but not an evidently ridiculous amount of great. I strongly believe Protoss can be played MUCH better than anyone currently plays Protoss. Until Terrans are defending each mineral line against warped in Zealots, Until Protoss are manually charging individual Zealots, Until Protoss are perpetually chronoboosting +3 armour every game (<18:30 bitches), protoss cant say shit | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25759 Posts
I am not racially biased either, I did sympathise with Zerg players back in the day, but I think if nothing groundbreaking is figured out in a month or two can you really argue that Protoss isn't in need of some kind of buff or, as I prefer a general reworking of our mechanics. I really don't care for the ability to warp in all that much, I play Terran too and it's really not that difficult to rally and queue units. What is wrong with the idea of removing warpgate for a tier 1 army buff for example? Really the 'problems' with the race are to do with a weak tier 1 army, a lack of mobility and the difficulty in splitting your forces. The tech tree is also all over the place. I actually liked the idea of both DTs and HTs coming from the same tech building to somewhat streamline the tech tree, 250 gas and a ridiculous build time for the Dark Shrine makes your game likely to be won and lost on whether or not your opponent has sufficient (cheap) detection Personally I don't see much changing until HoTS, so no major shifts will occur and I'm interested to see what Blizzard will do | ||
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LedFarmer
United States161 Posts
On August 11 2011 16:03 Orcasgt24 wrote: Im surprised that GSL Protoss don't do this more honestly. Some of these ultra greedy builds I'm seeing from Terrans in the GSL could be punished reallly hard by a cannon rush. Watching Terrans do 1 rax expands or CC first builds and get away with it just seems like a bad strategy. Often they seem to skip scouting until 15ish supply too. If you did a cannon rush on a map like Terminus or Taldirm Alter I think alot of terrans in GSL would auto lose because they went for a greedy build. 1 Barrack Expand is a safe opening in the TvP match up if they are cross position, also you won't see some Terrans scouting until the Barracks is finished because that is roughly 100 minerals that they lose from early scouting. So if they do a fast Expand ( a safe one) you will see the CC being built around 21 supply, you will be able to usually scout Protoss before this point so if you do see some aggression coming towards you, you can adapt your build. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:41 DooMDash wrote: Terran does very all in builds vs Toss because toss is way better in the macro late game currently. Might as well realize your own strengths and take advantage of it like the koreans have been. The Koreans have been losing to 1/1/1 all-ins practically every game. Yoda plays a standard game against Tassadar, gets raped. Does a 1/1/1 all-in twice, against Tassadar doing the purported hard counter builds, messes up a ton, and wins overwhelmingly anyway. How are you supposed to take advantage of late game strength if you literally can't live past the 10 minute mark? Furthermore, this "Protoss is imba in the lategame" is just a bullshit justification for wanting easy wins from the 1/1/1. Bomber and Polt have pretty insane TvP winrates, and they don't all-in a whole lot. Bomber destroys Protosses in long macro games. I dare you to show me a Protoss with a 80% PvT winrate. Terran had a positive winrate against Protoss even before the 1/1/1 became prominent ffs. | ||
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Jinivus
747 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:45 Deadlyfish wrote: This is just a period, things change. Do people have long term memory problems or something? I remember not long ago terrans were complaining about PvT, and zerg was considered the weakest race. Now it's flipped and protoss are complaining? Just give it time. I can promise you, with 100% certainty, that in 2 months it'll all be different and then maybe terran is the weakest, or zerg. I'll just go ahead and say it, its the METAGAME, and it's ruining ESPORTS. No, but seriously the game just changes, just roll with it. We dont need balance changes, more units would be nice just for variety and gameplay, but the game will fix itself. It's like a pendulum of balance, but once we get to one side people somehow forget we were ever on the other side, it's incredible. Yeah terran complained about TvP, and yet it stayed at 50 percent. Toss is in the 30 percent winrates and 3-19 vs korean terran since up/downs. This fucking all in is 5 rax reaper level of abuse. There is no reponse that doesn't get you outright killed or puts you way behind. This is an all in that can be scouted 5 mins ahead of time, be hardcountered, and still destroy the Protoss. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:47 starbreaker10 wrote: ^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters. Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about. So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision. On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games. On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote: How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion. As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC? MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom. Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:33 eourcs wrote: Maybe you should ask Hasuobs, who literally never loses PvT once he gets 3-4 bases and templar out, even if he is ridiculously far behind. I find that I am struggling most earlier than that. Even Blizzard said back in Bliz-con 2010 that they were concerned with protoss was "lopsided" tech wise. That their endgame was amazing, but their early game has weaknesses compaired to the other two. I really think Protoss needs to be leveled out a bit. The endgame may be amazing, but if we never get a third base, what does it matter? | ||
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Jinivus
747 Posts
On August 12 2011 03:03 Talin wrote: I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters. Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about. So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and requires more handspeed and precision. On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games. Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while. MC vs puma MC vs sen. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
Mhm yeah, I suppose that was fairly recent. Kind of slipped off my mind tbh.  Still, the games played by the others that were mentioned were comparable enough. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
I think we are asking the wrong questions...instead of assuming there is a problem with imbalance overall it seems that they have been having major trouble against early agression. Perhaps the current toss metagame is simply too greedy? I wouldnt expect to be able to hold a fast expansion against a 1base protoss player without significant static defence (on most maps) so maybe protoss need to delay their expansions against 1base play. It seems to me that the issue is the current brand of 1-1-1 1base pushes which are currently very successful and I'm not sure why that is. The polt timing push went through its time and protoss figured it out, and now a slightly different version of that is completely wrecking toss again. Why? The only difference is subbing a couple tanks for a couple banshees. In the late game, protoss is still in awesome shape, nothing in the game matches the raw power of HTs and when mixed with collosus its nearly impossible to deal with. My suggestions: I think that warp prism play IS viable, if you suspect the 1-1-1 push from terran, why not sit up in your base with some sentries and do some zealot warp prism play, if you catch them right after they moved out this can be really devastating while only investing 600minerals. TO make up for the loss at home you simply need to keep the terran out for one or two production cycles, quite doable. Alterntaively, one of the things I hate to face the most is stargate openings, early voidrays basically force a viking which will delay the push and you can easily snipe a banshee or even the raven possibly with a couple of phenoixes as he tries to push out across the map as they move faster then marines and can easily become separated. The best counter however I still think is a quick +1 armor and mass zealot with sentries and a couple sentries for GA. FFs behind the marines so they cant escape, zealots engage...game over. I expect the metagame to move this way. | ||
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WesleyLok
Canada99 Posts
MC got destroyed because he's only good at 1-2 base all-ins, and decided to pick the 2nd best player in the gsl IMMVP who is also insanely good. Mvp then picked the 1# player vs protoss. Of course he got destroyed. Inca made it to the finals of a gsl by cheesing everyone he played. Inca has never won a single pvz in his life. Inca got eliminated by a zerg. Seeing as he has a 0% win rate.... no surprise there. Anypro lost to a protoss. Who the hell is vanvanth? "Well respected foreigners" are garbage compared to koreans. Look at the mlgs. If a plat protoss lost to a master terran would you be qqing about balance? Alicia tried a risky cheese and missed his forcefield. Then he tried to double expand behind it and just straight up died. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:57 Techno wrote: No Im not making the claim that Protoss players are worse than anyone. Where did I mention Terran? I'm saying we don't need Blizzards intervention. You should think that way, it would help you improve more. Noobs in this thread don't even fucking know. If you were all good Masters players and calmly said specific things without over exagerating than maybe I could take you seriously, but you all act like its so obvious that Protoss sucks fucking ass, but from my perspective Protoss is doing just fine. Terran is doing great in the GM leagues and in GSL, but not an evidently ridiculous amount of great. I strongly believe Protoss can be played MUCH better than anyone currently plays Protoss. Until Terrans are defending each mineral line against warped in Zealots, Until Protoss are manually charging individual Zealots, Until Protoss are perpetually chronoboosting +3 armour every game (<18:30 bitches), protoss cant say shit Clearly someone who has never used Zealots or has a limited understanding of how they work. Woops, I cant stay anything until I gain the ability to control 30 zealots individually, my bad. | ||
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kenkaze291
United States92 Posts
On August 12 2011 03:03 Talin wrote: I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters. Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about. So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and requires more handspeed and precision. So first of all, how can we split without a spell that would let us outrun the banelings? Protoss still have to try to split stalkers when bane drops happen (although this is stopped most of the time due to fungal growth). Banshee vs marine kiting is comparable to early game stalker kiting of marines as well. And when has a T ever target fired units without overkill...that doesn't make sense at all. And yes I have seen huk and MC micro their blink stalkers pretty damn well, doing 1-3 stalkers at a time wen they have over 15. Protoss also are not all ranged units like Terran units are so the only thing we can really stutter step don't even have high attack speeds like marines/marauders (with and without stim) besides a stalker which is why pros like MC and huk do control them separately. You mentioned how FFs weren't something to be proud of, but if it was so easy why do so many P still not FF perfectly every time, the only ones I've seen are MC and huk, having consistent control over it. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
[QUOTE]On August 12 2011 03:03 Talin wrote: [QUOTE]On August 12 2011 02:47 starbreaker10 wrote: [QUOTE]On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote: Protoss needs a star. Nestea is the best player in the world DRG and Losira are huge ballers Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results. [QUOTE] ^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT[/QUOTE] I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters. Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about. So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision. On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games.[/QUOTE] I don't really see where you are going with this, I'm afraid. Are you saying that Protoss players at the very top play worse than Terran players at the very top, and thus lose against a 1-1-1 build or variant which required next to no micro, and definetely none of the micro you mentioned? "Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while." NASL finals mean nothing to you? The Gigabyte 6 StarsWar tournament? Some of MC's there were of the finest quality Starcraft 2. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On August 12 2011 03:10 WesleyLok wrote: Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die. It's actually perfectly possible to hold off the 1-1-1 with early 1G expo to 4 Gate / Robo build, especially on distant spawning positions. On August 12 2011 03:13 SeaSwift wrote: I don't really see where you are going with this, I'm afraid. Are you saying that Protoss players at the very top play worse than Terran players at the very top, and thus lose against a 1-1-1 build or variant which required next to no micro, and definetely none of the micro you mentioned? I don't even think there are any Protoss players at the very top right now, or at best there's only one who's out of form right now (MC). So yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying, and that scenario is actually pefrectly possible. BW is pretty much the same when it comes to Protoss, except in BW Protoss players have been underwhelming for years with some brief exceptions. Oh and I wasn't really talking about 1-1-1 specifically (the post I replied to wasn't about that either). It's a prime example of flavor of the month super-strategy that will get solved like all the other 1/2 base timings did, so not really too worried about that at all. | ||
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