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On August 12 2011 03:23 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:18 QTIP. wrote:On August 12 2011 03:03 Talin wrote:On August 12 2011 02:47 starbreaker10 wrote:On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote:
Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world
DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters. Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about. So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision. On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games. On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote:
How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while. This guy is well known for bouncing around threads pouring hate on Protoss players. Given his heavily biased list of Terran Micro practices in comparison to Protoss techniques, its clear where he comes from. (My favorite is Banshee - Marine kiting, this is a hilarious thing to beat your chest about and be proud about. Stalker - marine? Roach - Zealot? No!! Terran micro is more impressive!) He makes no mention of Phoenix either, which are among the most micro-intensive units in the game. Given how he talks about sentries and stalkers, I'm sure his blink-micro is pristine, and his forcefields have never over-lapped. I'm sure his splitting skills from Terran allow him to make sure each EMP hits no more than one single unit. Instead of opening a thread like this and allowing such a poster to bash Protoss players and tell them to "step up.", let's not bait flamers like this. (Again take a look at his post history, a good portion of his 200 or so posts a week are patrolling TL for Protoss whine.) Don't indulge him. Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG) Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now. I disagree. This is 5 rax reaper level of retardedness after the warpgate nerfs. There will be no rise, no innovation, this is not a complex style. It's an all in that a protoss can be completely aware of from the beginning of the game, try to hard counter it, and still fail/
Maybe its insanely retarded like you say, but it's still too early to tell. (Don't get me wrong, I don't like seeing my favorite players lose to it either)
Trials and Tribulations are what make a player and spurs a race's metagame into rapid development. A patch may be the final and possibly only solution, but there is no doubt that Protoss players will come out stronger from this. It sucks to wait, but when it all turns around it'll make it that much better.
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I think Immortals need a speed upgrade from the Robotics Bay, how about u ppl?
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On August 12 2011 03:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:17 Techno wrote:On August 12 2011 03:12 Plansix wrote:On August 12 2011 02:57 Techno wrote:On August 12 2011 01:39 Not_That wrote:On August 12 2011 00:33 Techno wrote:This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply. On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote:
Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it. The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all. Protoss win championships. My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't. You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me. While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races. Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases. No Im not making the claim that Protoss players are worse than anyone. Where did I mention Terran? I'm saying we don't need Blizzards intervention. You should think that way, it would help you improve more. Noobs in this thread don't even fucking know. If you were all good Masters players and calmly said specific things without over exagerating than maybe I could take you seriously, but you all act like its so obvious that Protoss sucks fucking ass, but from my perspective Protoss is doing just fine. Terran is doing great in the GM leagues and in GSL, but not an evidently ridiculous amount of great. I strongly believe Protoss can be played MUCH better than anyone currently plays Protoss. Until Terrans are defending each mineral line against warped in Zealots,
Until Protoss are manually charging individual Zealots,
Until Protoss are perpetually chronoboosting +3 armour every game (<18:30 bitches),
protoss cant say shit Clearly someone who has never used Zealots or has a limited understanding of how they work. Woops, I cant stay anything until I gain the ability to control 30 zealots individually, my bad. Clearly someone who thinks Protoss is at the peak of their evolution. No, protoss need to buckle down and come up with some new strats, for sure. Your "advice" on how Protoss should be winning games, however, is useless and adds nothing. Zerg players don't control individual zerglings in a battle. There is not reason for Protoss players to be expected to do so before they can discuss balance.
Hmm. It appears we are in agreement. Sorry I must have misrepresented my point.
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I see Sage play and I think it's a revolution in how Protoss should/can be played.
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On August 12 2011 03:25 Ubertron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:18 QTIP. wrote:On August 12 2011 03:03 Talin wrote:On August 12 2011 02:47 starbreaker10 wrote:On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote:
Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world
DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters. Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about. So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision. On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games. On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote:
How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while. This guy is well known for bouncing around threads pouring hate on Protoss players. Given his heavily biased list of Terran Micro practices in comparison to Protoss techniques, its clear where he comes from. (My favorite is Banshee - Marine kiting, this is a hilarious thing to beat your chest about and be proud about. Stalker - marine? Roach - Zealot? No!! Terran micro is more impressive!) He makes no mention of Phoenix either, which are among the most micro-intensive units in the game. Instead of opening a thread like this and allowing such a poster to bash Protoss players and tell them to "step up.", let's not bait flamers like this. (Again take a look at his post history, a good portion of his 200 or so posts a week are patrolling TL for Protoss whine.) Don't indulge him. Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG) Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now. Is the JYP series with DRG actually worth checking out? I mean it's hard to know when people are trolling or just plain idiotic on these forums but the posts I read about that made out like DRG was playing idiotically Anyway, I've tried my best to actually discuss things and it seems to get overshadowed by trolls going "MC isn't a good macro player" etc etc, so back to the topic at hand Phoenix heavy play as the next evolution of the Protoss metagame? I've seen them either be monstrously effective en masse or terrible, but I've been experimenting with phoenix heavy openers to try and blind counter the dreaded 1/1/1 I've yet to manage to tighten the times sufficiently that I feel I can win when somebody doesn't screw up massively. The strength thus far seems to be in delaying them moving out and allow you to buy time for either your one base army to reach solid numbers, or to have second base economy kicking in
Yes, it is most certainly a series worth checking out.
The only game where I thought DRG made a huge blunder was Game 3 by not scouting.
However, Games 1 / 2 show Protoss play that I guarantee you have not seen on a consistent basis. As a Protoss player, you have to appreciate JYP. He's one of the few players that actually has the balls to play like he did in a televised match and against a powerful opponent. It looked very impressive and extremely difficult to execute.
I highly rate the first 2 games of the series.
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If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
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everywhere the protoss players falling can anyone explain my why DRG did that shit 6pool and others things ? seems he WANTED to lose so no protoss buff incoming (kidding ^^)
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On August 12 2011 03:36 koolaid1990 wrote:
If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
no. Terran expand and then move out little later with even more tanks and stimmed marines. Colosus does not do well vs banshee and tank, colos are good vs marines but not when there's only a few colo and 6-7 tanks + 6-7+ banshees. It becomes FKN STUPID when terran gets 7+ banshee. I think the best way to stop it is get 1 gate expand and just mass units, and get +1 armor really quick... 1 Base play is not the answer.
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I made a picture for u guys
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TcBFG.png)
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On August 12 2011 03:36 koolaid1990 wrote:
If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
For FUCK SAKE T_T
Shall I quote myself here?
On August 12 2011 03:24 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:10 WesleyLok wrote:
Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die. You clearly don't play Protoss, and presumably don't play Terran had a very high level either. 1-1-1 hits at such a delayed timing after an expansion that it is actually BETTER against it to go for an absurdly greedy Nexus timing. 1 base Protoss just DIES to the 1-1-1, as Terran can just set up a contain and expand safely behind it. See: Naniwa vs Thorzain, TSL finals.
EDIT: Can we please either close this thread or remove the shit from it/ban the players who just repeat the same nonsense and add in text at the top saying: "Do not mention Protoss greediness and recommend 1 base play" along with some general stuff about not writing crap?
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Stop whining, just give it some time. Protoss will figure something out .
Remember when zergs were complaining about 5-rax reaper, then metagame shifted and they came up with new ideas and counters to that shit. Terrans barely use reapers nowadays.
+ Show Spoiler +Obviously, I'm trolling. But I hate those "l2p" guys. 1/1/1 was already strong in the beginning, after wg nerf it became even stronger. I can't think of any way beating this except gambling or cheesing.
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On August 12 2011 03:39 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:36 koolaid1990 wrote:
If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot. For FUCK SAKE T_T Shall I quote myself here? Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:24 SeaSwift wrote:On August 12 2011 03:10 WesleyLok wrote:
Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die. You clearly don't play Protoss, and presumably don't play Terran had a very high level either. 1-1-1 hits at such a delayed timing after an expansion that it is actually BETTER against it to go for an absurdly greedy Nexus timing. 1 base Protoss just DIES to the 1-1-1, as Terran can just set up a contain and expand safely behind it. See: Naniwa vs Thorzain, TSL finals. EDIT: Can we please either close this thread or remove the shit from it/ban the players who just repeat the same nonsense and add in text at the top saying: "Do not mention Protoss greediness and recommend 1 base play" along with some general stuff about not writing crap?
Your just as bad with your responses, It would be a better solution if you had to plug your sc2 ranks profile into your profile and there was a masters only forum.
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On August 12 2011 03:36 koolaid1990 wrote:
If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
Idk if you play the same game but there's basically no way that P can know for sure if T is 1 basing until they get an ob.
Terrans can build a CC in base (shit they can even make it an Orbital before lifting) so by the time you know, P has either:
1) expanded
2) not expanded
If 1), then it will most likely die to 1-1-1, but likely even with a T expo.
If 2), then it will be behind a T expo and still does not guarantee victory vs 1-1-1 since you cannot go both Stargate and Robotics on one base.
I think this had a lot to do with the lack of scouting. When that first Marine gets built, then P has no way to scout until they get Robo or Hallucinate.
For me personally I prefer Robo since Observers are needed for cloaked Banshees and it is an essential tech path to not dying when the bio ball has grown in number.
Observers (even "safe" builds like 1gate robo) are slow as hell though so many times P cannot scout T until it is too late. Many times even the threat of banshees will cause me to make 2 Observers since you are dead unless you keep one at home if the T is at all competent with Banshee micro.
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I love all these guys saying you need to use a warp prism. Its like those terrans saying zerg needs to use nydus worms back when 5rx reaper was still around.
I also love all the players who suggest you stay on 1 base when you suspect 1-1-1. You will be contained and with MULE's oversaturation ( if you dont know what it means dont reply ) Toss is in trouble. The warpgate and void ray nerfs made Protoss early game weaker than it was and terran can get away with going 1-1-1 in all of its forms without getting punished for it. They also have bunkers to defend against any incoming protoss crap. Protoss only has forcefields.. Standard MMMGV vs Toss is fine, although Protoss doesn't feel as dynamic as Terran and does not have as many harassment abilties.
PvZ is even a bigger isue in high level play. The problem with toss in PvT is the warpgate/void ray nerf, the lack of harassment and the reliance on colossus/HT.
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On August 12 2011 03:33 starmeat_ wrote:
I see Sage play and I think it's a revolution in how Protoss should/can be played.
Yeah the guy who just copied MC's build on TA and has gotten 1 AK in teamleague, obviously he will succeed where MC has failed!
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On August 12 2011 03:43 bokeevboke wrote:Stop whining, just give it some time. Protoss will figure something out . Remember when zergs were complaining about 5-rax reaper, then metagame shifted and they came up with new ideas and counters to that shit. Terrans barely use reapers nowadays. + Show Spoiler +Obviously, I'm trolling. But I hate those "l2p" guys. 1/1/1 was already strong in the beginning, after wg nerf it became even stronger. I can't think of any way beating this except gambling or cheesing.
This is literally the single dumbest post i have ever read. I feel like I should frame it and put it up on my wall or something.
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On August 12 2011 03:43 statikg wrote:
Your just as bad with your responses, It would be a better solution if you had to plug your sc2 ranks profile into your profile and there was a masters only forum.
I'd rather not have the discussion here, but if you feel I'm being ignorant or aggressive or something please feel free to have a PM convo with me about it 
I put up evidence to support my assertions (as I said, Naniwa vs Thorzain), and you can also look in the Strategy Forum for the Guide to defend the 1-1-1 in which numerous blue posters have written stuff about it. You'll find there some of the rubbish people write on how to defend it, and how you really defend it, and you HAVE to expand.
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On August 12 2011 03:24 Techno wrote:"If you were all good Masters players and calmly said specific things without over exagerating than maybe I could take you seriously, but you all act like its so obvious that Protoss sucks fucking ass, but from my perspective Protoss is doing just fine. Terran is doing great in the GM leagues and in GSL," Show nested quote + I would be suprised if IMMVP managed to not lose a single SCV to 1 zealot in a warp prism. Let alone 4. You give him way too little credit then. Even if they got 1 SCV kill, it still would not be worth the cost of the Warp Prism. And the opportunity cost of making a warp prism early in mid game instead of an immortal can be costly if Terran decides to push. Show nested quote +You've probably been on the other end of this argument when QQing Terrans say you can't drop against Protoss because youll just lose the Medivac and Protoss will A Move you. So take what you said there, FLIP IT AROUND, and say it to yourself. Zealots need to be melee range to hit anything and their DPS is way less than stimmed MM. Also, if Protoss warps in a small group to try to take care of the drop, the MMM will still win because of how ineffective gateway units are vs MMM, especially with the Medivac healing. You can't flip it around and say that 4 zealots will beat a small group of MM. Also, MMM can take out buildings, Zealots can't. All they can do is harass your mineral line. Care to enlighten me? There's very little micro you can do with them after they start charging.
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On August 12 2011 03:36 koolaid1990 wrote:
If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
I agree that gate-FE is very greed and I wondered why people did it for some time. However, the issue is that with a solid wall in, the terran can deny the protoss any scouting. Which means he could be going for a 1 rax-FE or 1-1-1(or any other build). The only way to get sight up into the main is with an obs, SG or some other sort of flying unit. There is a huge differance between a 1 gate FE and 3 gate robo. If you guess wrong, the protoss could be really behind and be forced to all-in.
I want to make it clear, I do mean deny scouting. The terran can actively deny the Protoss from getting information with reasonable building placement and unit control. This is the one big weakness of Protoss early game, the ability to get really solid information without getting locked into a tech path that may lose them the game. This is highlighted in PvP, which is a match up with a lot of mindgames.
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On August 12 2011 03:38 CoR wrote:
everywhere the protoss players falling can anyone explain my why DRG did that shit 6pool and others things ? seems he WANTED to lose so no protoss buff incoming (kidding ^^)
6pool is a pretty good gamble on Taldarim, he got unlucky that he was scouted first (otherwise he could have quite likely instantly won), and it forces so much defense to hold without a choke that economically he wasn't behind.
He lost that game more from being really haphazard with his units and not being ready for the VR tech switch imo.
The expo to gold was a fine move, but blindly going hydra was a gamble to bust the P natural. P can't punish that gold expo after a forge expand so, while greedy, it's not all that unsafe - when P's timing push arrived, it would have killed DRG even if he had taken standard bases because his unit comp was terrible (and he would have had less money).
So I'm guessing DRG is just mixing it up with really calculated risks.
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EPT
