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On August 12 2011 03:36 koolaid1990 wrote:
If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
This post is so wrong I can feel my brain cells actually dying... even if you know for sure its a 1-1-1 all in, you still only have maybe a 70/30(60/40 at best) chance of holding it off. with a 3 gate robo. not due to lack of units, merely the unit composition of the 1-1-1 basically hard counters all toss early tech options. Rush to collosi leaves you with to little gateway units, straight gateway units will never hold it, and if you make immortals that's taking away from stalkers and then banshees will just lol all over your base.
All this being said, it may not be OP, maybe toss needs to try stargate openings against Terran? but its a heavy investment and I'm not sure if you can have enough pheonix/VR's out in time to hold it... we will have to wait and see...
But to say "Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy" and claim that's why we lose is fucking ignorant and shows your complete lack of knowledge... so kindly GTFO
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I love how basicly everyone says MC was just doing old stuff better than other toss' were and won becouse of that.
How many openings/builds there are that he actually didn't make popular? He was the first one to crush terrans with 1 base VR all-ins and 6 gates ages ago. VR expand in PvZ? Yea, that too. Even SG expands vs terran lately that no-one else does (Actually that might be pretty decent vs 1/1/1 with some tweaking). In PvP robo into blink without colossus came from OGS house aswell.
If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot.
3 gate robo before expo? VS terran who can do what ever the fuck he wants becouse he can? Yea, you might win all-ins but lose every other game becouse you get natural when his getting his 5th... All-in that comes 5 mins after you throw down nexus and ~1.5mins after fully saturating the base should never be even close to killing someone. It's like doing 1 base colossus vs 1 rax expo, except that it works.
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On August 12 2011 03:49 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:36 koolaid1990 wrote:
If you KNOW for sure hes gonna 1-1-1, its easy to stop, since the beginning of the game(of course your not but just telling the guy before). Tosses just have that mindset that they need to expand against a terran. 1 base toss owns 1-1-1. The safest is to go 3 gate robo, then u can use your obs to see if its an expo or a 1 base all in. Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy and do 1 gate expos and whatnot. This post is so wrong I can feel my brain cells actually dying... even if you know for sure its a 1-1-1 all in, you still only have maybe a 70/30(60/40 at best) chance of holding it off. with a 3 gate robo. not due to lack of units, merely the unit composition of the 1-1-1 basically hard counters all toss early tech options. Rush to collosi leaves you with to little gateway units, straight gateway units will never hold it, and if you make immortals that's taking away from stalkers and then banshees will just lol all over your base. All this being said, it may not be OP, maybe toss needs to try stargate openings against Terran? but its a heavy investment and I'm not sure if you can have enough pheonix/VR's out in time to hold it... we will have to wait and see... But to say "Most tosses these days are just so fuckin greedy" and claim that's why we lose is fucking ignorant and shows your complete lack of knowledge... so kindly GTFO
I've been messing around the Stargate options but it just doesn't feel as robust as Robo options.
1) If you go Stargate you can't go Robo off one base therefore you have to use Phoenix to scout.
2) If you reveal Phoenix before critical mass it's hard to do any damage to econ.
3) I can't do shit vs Terrans who say "well fuck it im just going to kill him" since no gas for sentries.
Obviously I don't have MC's macro or multitask but I feel Stargate relies a lot on the Terran never seeing it before or making a lot of mistakes.
Edit: I missed something so obvious, not going Robo means 1-2 cloaked Banshees rapes your probe line so hard that it's like a free loss.
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On August 12 2011 03:39 Techno wrote:I made a picture for u guys ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TcBFG.png)
haha that's bullshit
if you have enough chargelots to surround his bio with them you will win one way or another
sadly that's not the case. instead it's terran that always has more stuff at any point in the game and also a up to 100 dmg instant dmg aoe spell.
'bu.. but it DOES NOT KILL!!' that's the dumbest thing i ever heard.
guess what your drugged psychopaths with machine guns do.
and they get healed also.
imagine what if you just hit one storm on your opponents army - actually scratch that, imagine all you had to do was hit ONE RANDOMLY PLACED FORCE FIELD in the opponents army. ONE.
and now you have instantly won the game?
does that sound fair to you?
HM???
not even talking about 1-1-1 here that shit is a whole other level of retardation.
best build to try and beat this is quick nexus 4 gate robo immortal zealot sentry while cutting probes around 35 and even then it's fucking hard to do.
and even if you do hold it off you still haven't won the game yet cause blizzard thought it would be a good idea to give complete invulnerability to terrans that are somewhat close to one of their bases. (pf, bunkers, repair, scvs, close to 50 units at once production)
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terran 1 base needs a buff
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Oh goody another thread for protoss the vent off in. I know you may mean good intentions OP, but this thread will just be balance whine until it gets closed.
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you think we don't have the need to vent?
just look at all the shit that protoss has to endure.
and there are STILL people who honestly believe that protoss is op.
the amount of retarded shit written is this thread is fucking unbearable.
'terrans win more games because theyre better look at protoss they dont have anyone who wins any games'
MAYBE THATS THE WHOLE POINT YOU FUCKING RETARD. THEY DO THE RIGHT SHIT AND STILL LOSE.
if i do a 1v1 against nestea and start with 200 supply while he spawns with a hatch and some drones as usual and then i beat him that doesnt mean that FUCK, NESTEA NEEDS TO GET HIS SHIT TOGETHER I TOTALLY OUTPLAYED HIM.
you know why? because the game was imbalanced to begin with.
BOY OH BOY, THAT CONCEPT SURE IS HARD TO WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND RIGHT ???
User was temp banned for this post.
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I remember that zerg were complaining about 3 base protoss and 200/200 armies and protoss players were telling them to "figure stuff out" themselves. Then infestor got a buff and protoss was nerfed.
Now protoss is in the same position and other races tell them to "figure it out" and move on already.
The difference and main problem is that the games are like 10 minutes long, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out a counter. Your decision tree is not very wide or deep, you can only do so much on 1 base, unlike zerg who had literally all the map available, infinite resources and expand, and all tech unlocked.
Everybody knows that expanding and heavy teching is very dangerous and leads to a very low unit count anyway.
So it's either fast expand and mass up units to overwhelm the push or some kind of smart magical tech off one base. We have seen robo, stargate + Twilight tech, stargate with gateway all in, colossus after expand, DTs (haha). It's time to admit that we're kind of screwed. To what extreme are we supposed to go? One base carrier rush? 4 gate + Robo colossus + Stargate phoenix? Storm and chargelots +1 armor off one base?
I'm not whining for a "nerf" or a "buff" of my race, but people just need to admit that there are fundamental design flaws in protoss, for it to be called the easiest race yet lose to the same dumb all in over and over again.
And I'm talking about PvZ, which is more watchable, but a bit one sided as of late (stats-wise). Don't try to 6 pool or gold rush and a zerg has a very good chance to just own a protoss straight up.
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I'm still wondering about this.
Where did this sudden "protoss cannot win against 1/1/1 builds" come from?
The build is really old, and I was under the impression protoss had it figured out by now.
The different components of the push (tank/raven/banshee/marine)haven't been buffed.
And protoss didn't get any nerfs towards the things that can counter this (immortal/voidray/etc, because afaik voidray speed nerf happened a really long time ago).
I don't really see how the WG nerf can affect this in terms of defence, since the push hits around 8/9mins, and by then, after the WG change you should have warpgates.
The only thing I can think off is that agressive WG timings got worse, so terrans are more likely to do this, but that doesn't change the speed/power of the push (since it was "standard" to get a bunker before that).
So anyone that can explain to me why this has become such a big problem in the last couple of days/weeks? (haven't been watching a lot of gsl).
(this isn't a "lolol nothing has changed l2p post, I'm just really wondering what has changed and how it affected this)
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On August 12 2011 04:28 hi im new wrote:
you think we don't have the need to vent?
just look at all the shit that protoss has to endure.
and there are STILL people who honestly believe that protoss is op.
the amount of retarded shit written is this thread is fucking unbearable.
'terrans win more games because theyre better look at protoss they dont have anyone who wins any games'
MAYBE THATS THE WHOLE POINT YOU FUCKING RETARD. THEY DO THE RIGHT SHIT AND STILL LOSE.
if i do a 1v1 against nestea and start with 200 supply while he spawns with a hatch and some drones as usual and then i beat him that doesnt mean that FUCK, NESTEA NEEDS TO GET HIS SHIT TOGETHER I TOTALLY OUTPLAYED HIM.
you know why? because the game was imbalanced to begin with.
BOY OH BOY, THAT CONCEPT SURE IS HARD TO WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND RIGHT ???
lol - I did enjoy this post in all its fury.
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what if zealots cost 75 minerals and gateways increased by 25 minerals?
quick on the fly theory
I say this because protoss doesn't have a harassment unit really early in the game, and they lack numbers to push out effectively.
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On August 12 2011 04:29 Icx wrote:So anyone that can explain to me why this has become such a big problem in the last couple of days/weeks? (haven't been watching a lot of gsl).
(this isn't a "lolol nothing has changed l2p post, I'm just really wondering what has changed and how it affected this)
WG research speed got nerfed twice and just because you get the WG up, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt us. Faster WG research means more units on the field and not only that, it would mean faster aggression from our side, which would otherwise delay the push.
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On August 12 2011 04:34 purecarnagge wrote:
what if zealots cost 75 minerals and gateways increased by 25 minerals?
quick on the fly theory
I say this because protoss doesn't have a harassment unit really early in the game, and they lack numbers to push out effectively.
This wouldn't make Zealot an harass unit ( they still have low dps, low mobility). It would just make them overpowered.
Honestly i think the easiest solution is just to nerf all terran early pushes by making marine hp 40 before shields. That would make Stalker and Immortal a lot better early game without changing anything for mid-game and after.
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On August 12 2011 04:29 Icx wrote:
I'm still wondering about this.
Where did this sudden "protoss cannot win against 1/1/1 builds" come from?
The build is really old, and I was under the impression protoss had it figured out by now.
The different components of the push (tank/raven/banshee/marine)haven't been buffed.
And protoss didn't get any nerfs towards the things that can counter this (immortal/voidray/etc, because afaik voidray speed nerf happened a really long time ago).
I don't really see how the WG nerf can affect this in terms of defence, since the push hits around 8/9mins, and by then, after the WG change you should have warpgates.
The only thing I can think off is that agressive WG timings got worse, so terrans are more likely to do this, but that doesn't change the speed/power of the push (since it was "standard" to get a bunker before that).
So anyone that can explain to me why this has become such a big problem in the last couple of days/weeks? (haven't been watching a lot of gsl).
(this isn't a "lolol nothing has changed l2p post, I'm just really wondering what has changed and how it affected this)
It has always been strong, except its now popularized by usage in the GSL, and its not like there is no solution, its just that the solution relies on imperfect information. That information being whether or not he has a marnie shooting at you as you bump into his ramp, or barracks count etc.
Nevermind the fact that terran can be expanding after you confirm its a tech build. It doesn't even need to be a 1-1-1 either, and instead this marauder expand/ghost/viking 12 minute push.
Problems result from how flexible terran is and what they can do pre 10 minutes-where misreads result in a disadvantage or outright death.
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On August 12 2011 03:39 Techno wrote:I made a picture for u guys
I'm pretty sure that would actually be 100 times worse than just letting them automatically charge in because the zealots charging for the backunits would be killed before they even reach them to hit them once.
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On August 12 2011 03:39 Techno wrote:I made a picture for u guys
It is virtually physically impossible for a human to individually charge a large number zealots in a battle. Each zealot requires 3 actions to do a manual charge with. Say you have 300 effective apm, then with a group of 10 zealots, it takes 30 actions, requiring 6 seconds to perform. Bump the number of zealots to a reasonable number late game - even 30, now it takes you 18 seconds to do it. What'll happen is your zealots will basically charge to their deaths one at a time in a battle. Consider that during those 18 seconds, you can't do other actions such as macro or cast spells.
Players obviously prioritize on how to spend their limited apm, so charging individual zealots is not a reasonable option.
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On August 12 2011 04:38 Vardant wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 04:29 Icx wrote:So anyone that can explain to me why this has become such a big problem in the last couple of days/weeks? (haven't been watching a lot of gsl).
(this isn't a "lolol nothing has changed l2p post, I'm just really wondering what has changed and how it affected this) WG research speed got nerfed twice and just because you get the WG up, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt us. Faster WG research means more units on the field and not only that, it would mean faster aggression from our side, which would otherwise delay the push.
Okay so where are the numbers for that, either I'm just a complete dumbass, but let's say you chronoboost as much on the nexus as before the patch.
For example by the 8min mark you have mined 2000 minerals in total, and spent 1500mins on units,500mins on tech
that hasn't changed right?
I mean as long as when the push hits there aren't any more units in production in normal warpgates, and your warpgates are up you should have the exact same amount of units by that point giving "perfect" macro.
The only thing I can think off here is that after the patch you have to chronoboost gateways more to get out key units, so less chrono's on the nexus, but if you scout a 1/1/1, you don't have to worry about early marauder pressure anyway, but that is a whole other point (scouting issues).
So in my reasoning, it still only affects agressive WG timings.
(just really curious in general how the 1/1/1 build just flared up like this, not trying to argue wether or not it's to strong)
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On August 12 2011 04:29 Icx wrote:
I'm still wondering about this.
Where did this sudden "protoss cannot win against 1/1/1 builds" come from?
The build is really old, and I was under the impression protoss had it figured out by now.
The different components of the push (tank/raven/banshee/marine)haven't been buffed.
And protoss didn't get any nerfs towards the things that can counter this (immortal/voidray/etc, because afaik voidray speed nerf happened a really long time ago).
I don't really see how the WG nerf can affect this in terms of defence, since the push hits around 8/9mins, and by then, after the WG change you should have warpgates.
The only thing I can think off is that agressive WG timings got worse, so terrans are more likely to do this, but that doesn't change the speed/power of the push (since it was "standard" to get a bunker before that).
So anyone that can explain to me why this has become such a big problem in the last couple of days/weeks? (haven't been watching a lot of gsl).
(this isn't a "lolol nothing has changed l2p post, I'm just really wondering what has changed and how it affected this)
For one, you're right, protoss' offensive power has been nerfed heavily with the WG nerf so terran can do almost every build he wants, not like we can do anything. (Remember MC vs Puma last game, Puma CC first, MC korean 4gate, but the warp in didn't come in time, whereas it would have with the old WG timing, and Puma had a bunker after that.)
Then I've always seen Protoss get completely crushed by this all in:
Thorzain used it his fair share in the TSL3 Finals.
Tester (at that time the best protoss) was kept from the GSL Open two seasons in a row because he encountered that build in the qualifiers.
Now Terran seem to have noticed that protoss players generally have trouble holding this and cannot possibly punish heavy teching (and I say trouble I mean a 90% winrate) and start spamming it to get free wins: see all the SlayerS players, Yoda, etc..
Is it imbalanced? I don't know, but it sure seems one sided as of late.
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On August 12 2011 04:41 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 04:29 Icx wrote:
I'm still wondering about this.
Where did this sudden "protoss cannot win against 1/1/1 builds" come from?
The build is really old, and I was under the impression protoss had it figured out by now.
The different components of the push (tank/raven/banshee/marine)haven't been buffed.
And protoss didn't get any nerfs towards the things that can counter this (immortal/voidray/etc, because afaik voidray speed nerf happened a really long time ago).
I don't really see how the WG nerf can affect this in terms of defence, since the push hits around 8/9mins, and by then, after the WG change you should have warpgates.
The only thing I can think off is that agressive WG timings got worse, so terrans are more likely to do this, but that doesn't change the speed/power of the push (since it was "standard" to get a bunker before that).
So anyone that can explain to me why this has become such a big problem in the last couple of days/weeks? (haven't been watching a lot of gsl).
(this isn't a "lolol nothing has changed l2p post, I'm just really wondering what has changed and how it affected this) It has always been strong, except its now popularized by usage in the GSL, and its not like there is no solution, its just that the solution relies on imperfect information. That information being whether or not he has a marnie shooting at you as you bump into his ramp, or barracks count etc. Nevermind the fact that terran can be expanding after you confirm its a tech build. It doesn't even need to be a 1-1-1 either, and instead this marauder expand/ghost/viking 12 minute push. Problems result from how flexible terran is and what they can do pre 10 minutes-where misreads result in a disadvantage or outright death.
I don't think it has to do with misreads, I think it has to do with terran making a unit composition that protoss cannot counter within the given timeframe.
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On August 12 2011 04:29 ZenithM wrote:
I remember that zerg were complaining about 3 base protoss and 200/200 armies and protoss players were telling them to "figure stuff out" themselves. Then infestor got a buff and protoss was nerfed.
Now protoss is in the same position and other races tell them to "figure it out" and move on already.
The difference and main problem is that the games are like 10 minutes long, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out a counter. Your decision tree is not very wide or deep, you can only do so much on 1 base, unlike zerg who had literally all the map available, infinite resources and expand, and all tech unlocked.
Everybody knows that expanding and heavy teching is very dangerous and leads to a very low unit count anyway.
So it's either fast expand and mass up units to overwhelm the push or some kind of smart magical tech off one base. We have seen robo, stargate + Twilight tech, stargate with gateway all in, colossus after expand, DTs (haha). It's time to admit that we're kind of screwed. To what extreme are we supposed to go? One base carrier rush? 4 gate + Robo colossus + Stargate phoenix? Storm and chargelots +1 armor off one base?
I'm not whining for a "nerf" or a "buff" of my race, but people just need to admit that there are fundamental design flaws in protoss, for it to be called the easiest race yet lose to the same dumb all in over and over again.
And I'm talking about PvZ, which is more watchable, but a bit one sided as of late (stats-wise). Don't try to 6 pool or gold rush and a zerg has a very good chance to just own a protoss straight up.
PvZ didn't really change because of the infestor fungal buff. It added new depth to zerg, and an incredible powerful lategame broodlord / infestor combo.
But it changed because zergs realized roach hydra corrupter is terrible, and that they can micro their units.
Other compositions are indefinitely more powerful than roach hydra corrupter.
The only thing the fungal buff did was to remind zergs that the infestor is powerful, and neural parasite and infested terrans are actually really really good spells.
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EPT
