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On August 12 2011 04:39 Gheizen64 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 04:34 purecarnagge wrote:
what if zealots cost 75 minerals and gateways increased by 25 minerals?
quick on the fly theory
I say this because protoss doesn't have a harassment unit really early in the game, and they lack numbers to push out effectively. This wouldn't make Zealot an harass unit ( they still have low dps, low mobility). It would just make them overpowered. Honestly i think the easiest solution is just to nerf all terran early pushes by making marine hp 40 before shields. That would make Stalker and Immortal a lot better early game without changing anything for mid-game and after.
and your zerg solution is? its not just PvT.
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On August 12 2011 04:43 Icx wrote:
(just really curious in general how the 1/1/1 build just flared up like this, not trying to argue wether or not it's to strong)
plenty of players(including me) have always been saying 1/1/1 is ridiculous and borderline impossible to stop if done well. I don't think pro players like to complain about such things because they are pros and it's their responsibility to be finding ways to deal with stuff, not complaining about it.
I think some protoss don't realize how strong it is because they weren't playing at a high enough level to have it done very well against them, or they watched a protoss pro streaming and the pro stopped it - but they don't realize how extremely badly the pro outplayed their terran competition.
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Okay, thanks for the responses so far,was just trying to wrap my head around what changes could have had any effect on this, but it seems like this is just a case of a strong build getting more popular, similar how certain units aren't used that much untill people realize their potential.
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I remember that zerg were complaining about 3 base protoss and 200/200 armies and protoss players were telling them to "figure stuff out" themselves. Then infestor got a buff and protoss was nerfed .
Yeah it was not my intention to say that the buff was a logical consequence of the whining. Just a simple fact as it surely must have helped a bit in the PvZ balance.
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I think the solution for protoss harass is to give the warp prism more shields and maybe take away some health.At the moment, warp prisms have 100 health and 40 Shields. I think giving it 150 Shields and 50 Health would be a proper choice.
Things like storm drops or sentry drops + warping in zealots are really effective but the warp prism itself is just sooo fragile.
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Hmm, ive given this some thought and how viable is a 1gate stargate expo opening with a fast voidray for harassment? wouldnt this counter the 1/1/1 allin pretty well? voidray does well against non stimmed marines and you could harass the edges of the terran base a bit using some stalkers and a void ray for vision, or am i just talking nonsense here?
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On August 12 2011 04:47 purecarnagge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 04:39 Gheizen64 wrote:On August 12 2011 04:34 purecarnagge wrote:
what if zealots cost 75 minerals and gateways increased by 25 minerals?
quick on the fly theory
I say this because protoss doesn't have a harassment unit really early in the game, and they lack numbers to push out effectively. This wouldn't make Zealot an harass unit ( they still have low dps, low mobility). It would just make them overpowered. Honestly i think the easiest solution is just to nerf all terran early pushes by making marine hp 40 before shields. That would make Stalker and Immortal a lot better early game without changing anything for mid-game and after. and your zerg solution is? its not just PvT.
PvZ is still pretty volatile, i wouldn't change it right now. PvT on the other hand has seen Terran always on top for 6 month (since the nerf on KA) and is now a downright bad matchup with so many games ending early on with timing pushes.
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On August 12 2011 04:57 RealQ wrote:
Hmm, ive given this some thought and how viable is a 1gate stargate expo opening with a fast voidray for harassment? wouldnt this counter the 1/1/1 allin pretty well? voidray does well against non stimmed marines and you could harass the edges of the terran base a bit using some stalkers and a void ray for vision, or am i just talking nonsense here?
Actually I've thought about that too, 1 gate stargate as a macro opening.
I go gas first, core, stargate right after that, 1 phoenix to scout all the terran base and 1 void ray after that to be safe. Based on scouting I choose to expand, or stay on one base.
Problem is I don't play against GSL-caliber players obviously, and I can actually defend their 1-1-1 with a 1 gate FE pretty easily so it's not very relevant :D
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MC losing in GSL had nothing to do with protoss being suddenly weak, he could have punished Mvp for taking a really early expo into 1-1-1, I think Mvp even made his CC on lowground with only 1 bunker.
When he lost against Noblesse his stalkers were in a bad position, Noblesse's factory baiting around soaking stalker hits and 1 base timing with medivac, MC didn't have enough units to hold his expo. That's the way I see it at least.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On August 12 2011 04:57 RealQ wrote:
Hmm, ive given this some thought and how viable is a 1gate stargate expo opening with a fast voidray for harassment? wouldnt this counter the 1/1/1 allin pretty well? voidray does well against non stimmed marines and you could harass the edges of the terran base a bit using some stalkers and a void ray for vision, or am i just talking nonsense here?
Its an option, but consider the same situation where you have the 1-1-1 all-in coming. The Terran has a Starport up, so he can make a Viking and your pressure has issues straight away. That would push the VR far enough back to allow the marines/siege tanks down, and the push continues, albeit delayed because of making 1 Viking
Continuing the theorycrafting, what about the same build, but change VRs to phoenix? Yes they die pretty badly to marines, but if you can get lifts off on the tanks, would it not give your gateway army enough time to get into the fight without dying to tank fire?
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On August 12 2011 03:18 QTIP. wrote:
Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG)
Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
Well said, mate. We'll get there in the end. Btw, I didn't watch any of the GSL matches, can anyone tell me what was so special about JYP vs DRG?
Hold fast, sons of Aiur.
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On August 12 2011 05:26 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:18 QTIP. wrote:
Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG)
Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now. Well said, mate. We'll get there in the end. Btw, I didn't watch any of the GSL matches, can anyone tell me what was so special about JYP vs DRG? Hold fast, sons of Aiur.
What's so special is that DRG 6pooled in game 2 and JYP defended it and DRG cheesed the gold base on metalopolis and didn't scout at all JYP's tech.
J/k, JYP played well in all 3 games  (but that's really what happened though, not sure if DRG needed to do that)
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The warpgate nerf really hurt Protoss more in PvT and PvZ in my opinion.
There is no way to put pressure on a zerg early game except some canon cheese.
The only build that I find viable is forge fast expand into +2 blink stalker and hope your opponent don't see it coming. The stargate play and DT play against zerg is not working, people have figured how to defend it.
I would agree with a buff to Robo units, boosting the warp prism hp and shield, so we would have some harass options.
Right now you have to do 2 base blink stalker timing or try weird strategy like 4-sentry drop.
I don't have the same problem with PvT, except the early push with stim and ghost. I would still nerf marauder early game it's op with CC. Put this upgrade somewhere else or it need more time to research.
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On August 12 2011 05:20 Grapesludge wrote:
MC losing in GSL had nothing to do with protoss being suddenly weak, he could have punished Mvp for taking a really early expo into 1-1-1, I think Mvp even made his CC on lowground with only 1 bunker.
When he lost against Noblesse his stalkers were in a bad position, Noblesse's factory baiting around soaking stalker hits and 1 base timing with medivac, MC didn't have enough units to hold his expo. That's the way I see it at least.
Yes but how would MC know MVP took a fast expo with only 4 marines and a bunker? If the standard response to seeing a fast expansion from your opponent is to allin then we wouldn't ever have any macro games.
The second game MC knew a 1base push was coming, went 3 gate expo, and still got owned. It was his fault for not positioning his stalkers well, but if Noblesse was actually elevatoring his units into MC's main like MC suspected, then having stalkers on the low ground would have been a huge mistake for MC, so what was he to do?
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On August 11 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote:
People who claim that this has to do with protoss players not being innovative obviously dont play protoss. The truth is, protoss is a really rigid race with few options and viable strategies. you are dependant on High templars or colossus to surivive in the midgame because your other units are not cost effective.
What un-explored part of our tech three do you want us to utilize? Carriers? Mothership? if you watch the recent GSL you would notice that protoss players are desperatly trying every build and even some new crazy shit that doesnt make sense just to find something that might work, to no sucess.
Its not that protoss players dont utilize the options given to them, its just that protoss has very few options and none of them work in the current meta-game.
The idea that some kind of genious protoss messiah is gonna arise and teach every protoss how to not suck is just plain delusional. sorry
Exactly- as so many other people have said in this thread and countless others int he past- protoss only has TWO tech trees- warpgate or robo- both which are extremely easily countered. However against terran it does not even matter as the 1-1-1 all in is extremely powerful and protoss simply does not have the number of units necessary to defend against this. Part of this i believe has to do with the warp gate tech research time nerf. Part of it is that protoss units are extremely week in small numbers and it is impossible to have the necessary tech so early in the game for protoss. MC was literally crushed by noblesse simply because of how powerful the 1-1-1 timing is. as we can learn from the JYP game- the only real way for toss to win at the extremely high competitive level is for the opponent to make some stupid mistake or do something risky.
EDIT: sorry guys i forgot( its been like 3 days) it was a 2 rax MMM all in as someone else pointed out. But the point is - protoss simply does not have the unit count in the early game.
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Huh, Noblesse's build vs MC was not a 1-1-1 (at least in the now common sense of the term: marine banshee tank), it was a one base MMM all in, still very difficult to hold (GuMiHo did that one time in the GSTL and the build was the bane of all protosses in the beta). And MC obviously expected a 1-1-1 so yeah he got kinda screwed.
For this build, I would indeed think that a shorter WG timing (or better normal gateway timings) can help.
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On August 12 2011 05:52 ZenithM wrote:
Huh, Noblesse's build vs MC was not a 1-1-1 (at least in the now common sense of the term: marine banshee tank), it was a one base MMM all in, still very difficult to hold (GuMiHo did that one time in the GSTL and the build was the bane of all protosses in the beta). And MC obviously expected a 1-1-1 so yeah he got kinda screwed.
For this build, I would indeed think that a shorter WG timing (or better normal gateway timings) can help.
Actually MC scouted the second rax and the reactor on the first (not sure if he had time to click on the reactor, but he definitely had enough to click on the second rax). That's why he 3gate expanded. A 3gate expo usually dies to a 1-1-1 because against 1-1-1 you either have to expo really fast to let it kick in or not expo at all and tech a bit.
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On August 12 2011 05:56 JKira wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 05:52 ZenithM wrote:
Huh, Noblesse's build vs MC was not a 1-1-1 (at least in the now common sense of the term: marine banshee tank), it was a one base MMM all in, still very difficult to hold (GuMiHo did that one time in the GSTL and the build was the bane of all protosses in the beta). And MC obviously expected a 1-1-1 so yeah he got kinda screwed.
For this build, I would indeed think that a shorter WG timing (or better normal gateway timings) can help. Actually MC scouted the second rax and the reactor on the first (not sure if he had time to click on the reactor, but he definitely had enough to click on the second rax). That's why he 3gate expanded. A 3gate expo usually dies to a 1-1-1 because against 1-1-1 you either have to expo really fast to let it kick in or not expo at all and tech a bit.
Okay my bad, maybe MC did read that well. But in the CSL SaSe vs MKP game 2, MKP showed the second rax and the reactor to SaSe (as Noblesse did to MC), went ahead and canceled the reactor and threw down the factory and 1-1-1 baby party party party all over SaSe who was "naively" 3 gate expanding.
So you basically can't scout what all-in terran is doing with your first probe.
Edit: Here's the link to the MKP vs SaSe game http://www.twitch.tv/iccuptv/b/292005058
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Sadly its too simple.. Terran has the option to make cloak banshee so you have to go obs otherwise you die and robo is just worthless tech path
if blizz just removes cloak for 1 month or makes it available after ebay toss would have no reason to get robo and the matchup will become interesting
and also this ridicolous 1a rush will become stoppable
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I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
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EPT
