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On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote:
I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
Interesting.......
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On August 12 2011 06:17 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote:
I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for. Interesting.......
Haha that would make PvT so much easier. It would be too good to be true. And Terran would finally understand the price and risk of expanding. But I don't think that will ever be done. It's Terran's wanted design to be able to fly buildings during base trades, take islands and all that kind of bullshit :D
More seriously though, that would probably be kind of overpowered for the other 2 races.
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On August 12 2011 05:45 JKira wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 05:20 Grapesludge wrote:
MC losing in GSL had nothing to do with protoss being suddenly weak, he could have punished Mvp for taking a really early expo into 1-1-1, I think Mvp even made his CC on lowground with only 1 bunker.
When he lost against Noblesse his stalkers were in a bad position, Noblesse's factory baiting around soaking stalker hits and 1 base timing with medivac, MC didn't have enough units to hold his expo. That's the way I see it at least.
Yes but how would MC know MVP took a fast expo with only 4 marines and a bunker? If the standard response to seeing a fast expansion from your opponent is to allin then we wouldn't ever have any macro games. The second game MC knew a 1base push was coming, went 3 gate expo, and still got owned. It was his fault for not positioning his stalkers well, but if Noblesse was actually elevatoring his units into MC's main like MC suspected, then having stalkers on the low ground would have been a huge mistake for MC, so what was he to do?
Mvp played risky and he didn't get punished for it, I mean MC does have ways to find out that there is a CC being built on lowground, one bunker in that position usually indicates an expo or tech so if MC just runs a unit by the one bunker he's gonna find out.
There is also a difference between having 1 bunker with 4 marines to defend your 1 rax lowground CC than a normal timed expo with more defense.
I didn't say it's reasonable to all in if you see your opponent FE, but if he is being too greedy about it, maybe it's a good decision.
In the case of the Noblesse game, it sounds like you're saying it's impossible to hold a 1 base terran all in with marine marauder medivac. Noblesse baited the stalkers out of position and engaged when MC was in a bad position to defend. I don't think there's much else to it.
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On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote:
I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
You got to understand that for terran, securing an expansion is more difficult than for toss/zerg. You don't have forcefields so you would have to make the bunkers before the CC, which would delay the the CC considerably.
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On August 12 2011 06:22 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 06:17 Techno wrote:On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote:
I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for. Interesting....... Haha that would make PvT so much easier. It would be too good to be true. And Terran would finally understand the price and risk of expanding. But I don't think that will ever be done. It's Terran's wanted design to be able to fly buildings during base trades, take islands and all that kind of bullshit :D More seriously though, that would probably be kind of overpowered for the other 2 races.
You mean by requiring they can defend an expansion before they build it? I just think it would put the risk of building that CC on par with the risk of the other races taking expansions, protoss especially though. They still benefit from that second orbital even if it sits in their base while they build up enough stuff to move down the ramp. 2 rax expand is probably the safest expansion in the game for any race. Why should the protoss have to take more risks than terran to use a fast expand that comes later than the 2 rax expand, can apply LESS pressure than a 2 rax expand, receives no benefit from the expand until much later, and is completely exposed and scoutable to a simple SCV run by.
I dunno it was just a suggestion its just the worst feeling in the world when you probe scout, then do a poke with a zealot/stalker, still don't get enough information to ascertain if they're all-inning or not, prepare for that possibility, then finally get some type of reliable scouting into their base to see a completed orbital churning out double SCVs, all the while you've been using your chronoboost on units you can't even use yet. Your alternative is to do the first steps, assume expansion, finally get your reliable scout in to see what theyre up to, and seeing NO orbital and a bigass push coming to mollywhop you.
Edit: The third scenario would be that you guessed correctly and enter the mid-game on even footing
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i believe i have a build that is good at countering the 1/1/1 and have been using it the last 2weeks , and any protoss out there that thinks they are good enough at executing a terran 1/1/1 may feel free to PM me and you can battle me and see if your 1/1/1 can beat me
or if any tosses out there have a good terran friend to fight me, you can tell him to pm me and i can create a replay with us fighting
the build is a zero sentry build that gets 1 very fast voidray, 3-4 stalkers, and a fast robo (at about 5:30) because it cut sentrys it has enough gas to do all of this. the build ONLY gets 1 voidray, to scout, since marines without stim cannot catch a voidray. and i bring my stalkers with the voidray during the scouting mission so if he has a viking i can save the vray and know he got a super fast starport and is going 1/1/1
the thing about voidrays is the first one is very good, but the second and third ones suck because marines tend to build up fast and without collossi voidrays suck against marine compositions. even pheonix suck vs marine composition. but once you have out a collossi, voidrays become good again, and stalker/immortal is good against those timing pushes that come at 7-8 minutes. so the build gets 1fast voidray to scout, then it gets a 5:30 robo to pump out 2 immortals and a collossi before 9 minutes
heres the build
9pylon (scout with probe)
2 chronoboosts on nexus
14gate
15gas
16pylon
17gas
chronoboost on nexus
19cyber
make stargate+stalker immediately after cyber is done. this allows the terran to scout the stargate, but guess what, who cares. i dont give a damn. let him scout it, he can stop doing a 1/1/1 if he scouts it and i feel at this point i can react properly to whatever he does
i poke his ramp with my first stalkers to see if he is fast expanding. if he is fast expanding i get a expansion too. because im not getting sentrys i go for a fast collossi if i scout plenty barracks. i get ONLY 1 voidray out of the stargate for nothing other than scouting purposes. the voidray in total costs 400/300, however since marines without stim cannot catch it i normally can kill 1 marine or scv or a depot at the 6 minute mark then run away and recharge shields which if you reduce that from the cost of the voidray that means the real cost of the voidray is like 300/300, and for its cost it has some power in combat but most importantly the voidray provides a full complete scout at the 6 minute mark (it reaches the terran base at 6 minutes) because you get it so fast
in order for the terran to stop my full scout he needs to get out a viking at 6 minutes. that alone already lets me know he went 1-1-1 so i know how to prepare. the viking cannot kill my voidray because i bring my stalkers along to support the scouting
the voidray comes out at around 5:30 because i use 2 chronoboosts on it and i scout with it before the terran can have stim
the voidray+stalkers beats any fast rush the terran could do, and normally after 4-5 stalkers i stop and make mostly immortal+zealot and go for a fast collossi. the fast 2 gasses and no sentries gives lots of gas for a fast tech
i told this to someone in another thread and he said this
""""When you show up to their base for your follow-up scouting to realize they are 2/3 rax expanding with stim half complete do you just leave? """
my answer to that is
i always get a robo at around 5:30 no matter what since its needed in almost all situations. the scouts good to see if the enemy is going super marine heavy, super marauder heavy, mix, 1/1/1, or possibly cloaked banshees or thors
if i scout tons and tons of marines and barracks (with no addons and no stim, just tons of marines and a expansion) i get out that faster bay for 1-2 collossi then i switch back into making immortals
if i scout your situation (3rax with add-ons stim almost done and expansion coming) i stop getting stalkers (get zealots instead) giving me enough gas to get a bay+immortal right there. i chronoboost out 2 immortals at around the time the bay completes (i drop the bay slightly after the first immortal, giving time for 2 chronoboosted immortals during the bays buildtime). then when bay is done i make a collossi and i use the gateway for zealots. after 1 collossi i usually stop production if i think the enemy is being aggressive and switch into making zealots+immortal+voidray from the 1/1/1 i have already. i start making voidrays again only after i have one collossi to help handle marines. with micro its more than do-able
i think this build works against 3rax or 2rax expands, the most powerful counter to this build is the fact that i build the stargate at 3:55 gametime immediately after my cybercore is done, and right as i start building my stalker. this means this build is completely 100% scoutable by my enemy, i let him scout my stargate.
because of this, i have found the most powerful thing a terran can do against this build is start building a command center the moment he scouts my stargate going up at 3:59 gametime. this allows him to go pure marine off a fast expand which beats any toss army without guardian shields or collossi, and he can get tanks out before i get my collossi so the terran can easily defend his fast expand from any of my aggression.
this is the most powerful response i believe the terran can do if he scouts my build
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people think certain strats are overpowered but they aren't
1) reapers were OP so they were nerfed because EVERY terran was doing that same opening vs zerg
2) 4 gate was nerfed because every protoss was just doing that same strat vs all races
3) scv health was nerfed because of scv worker rush which everybody did
if a particular strat is overpowered then everybody will begin to use it and it will result in 100% win for the person using it if skill levels are equal.
now that's how you can tell if something is OP or not. i don't see 1/1/1 all ins constantly so i question whether it's as OP as you think.
when every single terran uses it in every single vs toss then blizzard will change it.
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I like people saying protoss is op. Carriers are soo good yet unexplored. Why do they suck? Interceptors tank like boss, scales well with upgrades, outranged all flying air units. Their deathball is the best in the game and is simply a-movable. Zero drops are used by protoss dont whine over warp prism being fragile, it can transport most units in the game along with warp in and with speed upgrade it's the second fastest in the game.
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On August 12 2011 06:41 Xercen wrote:
people think certain strats are overpowered but they aren't
1) reapers were OP so they were nerfed because EVERY terran was doing that same opening vs zerg
2) 4 gate was nerfed because every protoss was just doing that same strat vs all races
3) scv health was nerfed because of scv worker rush which everybody did
if a particular strat is overpowered then everybody will begin to use it and it will result in 100% win for the person using it if skill levels are equal.
now that's how you can tell if something is OP or not. i don't see 1/1/1 all ins constantly so i question whether it's as OP as you think.
when every single terran uses it in every single vs toss then blizzard will change it.
On some maps, it's not suitable for usage, so there's that. It's being used to a VERY high degree, with literally a 100% success rate since the Up/Downs of the last GSL. You see Yoda vs. Tassadar yesterday? He loses game 1, then proceeds to do two 1-1-1 all-ins in a row to win the series. Tassadar was laughing to himself afterwards, probably because he knows it's ridiculous. I challenge you to name me a GSL match since last season's Up/Downs in which the 1-1-1 all-in was successfully stopped. A single match. Go.
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when every single terran uses it in every single vs toss then blizzard will change it.
that is completely the wrong way to talk about balance
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Protoss: MC does a build, all protosses does it until it stops working.
Example Stargate, 3gate or DT expand. Now that zerg in high levels are used to them because you used them alot they know how to counter it and then you say it's imbalanced and just sit on your ass. ROFL
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On August 12 2011 06:41 Xercen wrote:
people think certain strats are overpowered but they aren't
1) reapers were OP so they were nerfed because EVERY terran was doing that same opening vs zerg
2) 4 gate was nerfed because every protoss was just doing that same strat vs all races
3) scv health was nerfed because of scv worker rush which everybody did
if a particular strat is overpowered then everybody will begin to use it and it will result in 100% win for the person using it if skill levels are equal.
now that's how you can tell if something is OP or not. i don't see 1/1/1 all ins constantly so i question whether it's as OP as you think.
when every single terran uses it in every single vs toss then blizzard will change it.
What have you been watching in the last two weeks? What do you think happens on the ladder 2 games on 3 in pvt right now?
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On August 12 2011 06:32 Zane wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote:
I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for. You got to understand that for terran, securing an expansion is more difficult than for toss/zerg. You don't have forcefields so you would have to make the bunkers before the CC, which would delay the the CC considerably.
what?
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I like people saying protoss is op. Carriers are soo good yet unexplored. Why do they suck? Interceptors tank like boss, scales well with upgrades, outranged all flying air units. Their deathball is the best in the game and is simply a-movable. Zero drops are used by protoss dont whine over warp prism being fragile, it can transport most units in the game along with warp in and with speed upgrade it's the second fastest in the game.
they suck because
1) they have a very long build time.
2) they are at the end of a tech tree that uses a lot of gas therefore you're ground army is severely weakened meaning you have to turtle until they come out.
( 3) (sort of) the same things counter collosus meaning only HT's to tech switch to which a competent opponent will predict)
Warp prisms need a buff because most of our units cost 2 food so can only transport 4 things at a time and takes a time to change to 'warp mode' and back again
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On August 12 2011 06:41 Xercen wrote:
people think certain strats are overpowered but they aren't
1) reapers were OP so they were nerfed because EVERY terran was doing that same opening vs zerg
2) 4 gate was nerfed because every protoss was just doing that same strat vs all races
3) scv health was nerfed because of scv worker rush which everybody did
if a particular strat is overpowered then everybody will begin to use it and it will result in 100% win for the person using it if skill levels are equal.
now that's how you can tell if something is OP or not. i don't see 1/1/1 all ins constantly so i question whether it's as OP as you think.
when every single terran uses it in every single vs toss then blizzard will change it.
I don't know if you watch the same game as we do, but so far, the 1/1/1 has been used in every TvP BoX at the GSL this season.
It's not used in every single set because certain maps are not very good for it (where "not very good" = only 70% winrate I would assume).
Other examples:
SlayerS terrans 1/1/1'd their way through the code A qualifiers.
IMYoda chooses to play macro against Tassadar and gets crushed, then 1/1/1 two times in a row (doesn't seem strange to you?) and "comes back".
the only one who hasn't been 1/1/1'd is MC. He has had the privilege of being 1/1/1'd off 2 bases by MVP (maybe the most enjoyable TvP so far, and that was an unbreakable contain) and MMM one base all inned by Noblesse.
I'm okay with you being pissed of all these whiny protoss newbies, but at least try to understand that we are not able to love watching the PvT as it's played this season.
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On August 12 2011 06:47 Olsson wrote:
Protoss: MC does a build, all protosses does it until it stops working.
Example Stargate, 3gate or DT expand. Now that zerg in high levels are used to them because you used them alot they know how to counter it and then you say it's imbalanced and just sit on your ass. ROFL
Stargate got heavily nerfed by the spore burrow change. Zerg didn't learn to deal with it, a crucial component of defending it got buffed.
3gate expo is almost 100% scoutable, but it's our goto staple in PvZ because it doesn't die to anything in particular, and can pressure.
DT expands are extremely gimmicky because a good zerg counts sentries, realizes that you had to have spent gas on something else and will just evo+1 spore and be safe from both stargate and DT(1base robo against zerg is just bad.)
We aren't sitting on our asses. P's are fairly even with T and Z in the late game, and especially since that build takes 10 minutes to run, wouldn't you think that with the popularity, P's get plenty of practice against it? If it was so easy to find a solution, wouldn't terran not have 100% winrate with the build?
On August 12 2011 06:50 VTPerfect wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 06:32 Zane wrote:On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote:
I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for. You got to understand that for terran, securing an expansion is more difficult than for toss/zerg. You don't have forcefields so you would have to make the bunkers before the CC, which would delay the the CC considerably. what?
I'd have to echo this statement. Terran has only a slightly harder time than zerg securing bases beyond nat, and absolutely does NOT have a harder time than protoss securing a 3rd. Against active MM drop play, unless bases are close together, toss needs to have blink before securing a 3rd. You have fucking planetaries, and you complain about hard to secure bases?
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On August 12 2011 05:21 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 04:57 RealQ wrote:
Hmm, ive given this some thought and how viable is a 1gate stargate expo opening with a fast voidray for harassment? wouldnt this counter the 1/1/1 allin pretty well? voidray does well against non stimmed marines and you could harass the edges of the terran base a bit using some stalkers and a void ray for vision, or am i just talking nonsense here? Its an option, but consider the same situation where you have the 1-1-1 all-in coming. The Terran has a Starport up, so he can make a Viking and your pressure has issues straight away. That would push the VR far enough back to allow the marines/siege tanks down, and the push continues, albeit delayed because of making 1 Viking Continuing the theorycrafting, what about the same build, but change VRs to phoenix? Yes they die pretty badly to marines, but if you can get lifts off on the tanks, would it not give your gateway army enough time to get into the fight without dying to tank fire?
Obviously you go for pheonix after the first voidray for lifting siege tanks, but the Voidray was ment to just get a early harass in at the very start and make pheonix after that.
Forcing the terran to make a viking will set him back in banshee for a number of seconds which can really help.
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On August 12 2011 06:43 Olsson wrote:
I like people saying protoss is op. Carriers are soo good yet unexplored. Why do they suck? Interceptors tank like boss, scales well with upgrades, outranged all flying air units. Their deathball is the best in the game and is simply a-movable. Zero drops are used by protoss dont whine over warp prism being fragile, it can transport most units in the game along with warp in and with speed upgrade it's the second fastest in the game.
You seem to know your shit. You even seem to play above gold level. Please, oh great zerg player, please show me the way. Show me how I can get even one carrier off 2 bases that will help me roflstomp my way to top 1 Korean GM. Enlighten me on how I can tech to most expensive tech path possible, in time AND resources (especially in time), without dying to a timing attack before i can get more than 1 carrier and a half. Educate me and give me the ultimate build order you would suggest us, poor protoss players, to get enough carriers in order to. and I quote, "a move" my way to victory, when interceptors can only tank damage if the opponent suffers from brain damage and decides not to target the carriers with his anti-air. Please, oh great one, grace me with you infinite wisdom.
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On August 12 2011 07:10 ForeverSleep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 06:43 Olsson wrote:
I like people saying protoss is op. Carriers are soo good yet unexplored. Why do they suck? Interceptors tank like boss, scales well with upgrades, outranged all flying air units. Their deathball is the best in the game and is simply a-movable. Zero drops are used by protoss dont whine over warp prism being fragile, it can transport most units in the game along with warp in and with speed upgrade it's the second fastest in the game. You seem to know your shit. You even seem to play above gold level. Please, oh great zerg player, please show me the way. Show me how I can get even one carrier off 2 bases that will help me roflstomp my way to top 1 Korean GM. Enlighten me on how I can tech to most expensive tech path possible, in time AND resources (especially in time), without dying to a timing attack before i can get more than 1 carrier and a half. Educate me and give me the ultimate build order you would suggest us, poor protoss players, to get enough carriers in order to. and I quote, "a move" my way to victory, when interceptors can only tank damage if the opponent suffers from brain damage and decides not to target the carriers with his anti-air. Please, oh great one, grace me with you infinite wisdom.
Sorry but you're pretty arrogant. I think against Z you can easily do carriers from a forge fast because generally you'll already have a stargate. Dunno man. Carriers in numbers are pretty devastating.
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EPT
