On August 12 2011 08:38 statikg wrote: There are multiple guides in the strategy forums for how to hold this successfully right now, IMO protoss just need to go very heavy zealot/sentry and maybe even pull some probes if they expect to hold it. Why should you be able to hold a 10-15scv push without pulling some of your workers esp when you are on 2 base to 1. Chrono out +1 armor and you will be golden.
Protoss newbies dont expect that you will get buffed because you whine alot, the 4gate "nerf" so many ppl are citing wasnt even a nerf to the PvT version of 4gate so I don't know what you are smoking (the most powerful PvT varients did not hit the second wgs finished).
All the terran whining about TvP lategame with bio somehow resulted in a thor nerf so watch out, you might just get the carrier nerfed or somthing.
Lol. Ignorance.
The multiple guides in the strategy forum work for around masters level 1-1-1s, and even then it's the "kind of works sometimes, but at least you don't die 100% of the time". The creators of those threads are not on the same level as all the Korean protoss dying from this. If Bomber did it against the creators of those threads, they would die every single game.
Protoss newbies whining about 1-1-1 = Sangho, Puzzle, SlayersAlicia, etc.
You apparently have no idea how this game works. Just because that variation has two gas doesn't mean you won''t have more units out much faster.
The thor was nerfed because Thorzain's unstoppable Thor strat he used against MC, and one base thor pushes pretty much being a slightly easier-to-hold 1-1-1.
Anyway I'm sure 1-1-1 will be nerfed next patch somehow, Blizzard has nerfed for less.
Anyone who thinks JYP vs DRG was a good series for toss is mentally challenged. Game 1 DRG stomps the living shit out of JYP in the only straight up game. DRG decides to go for a 6 pool, has it scouted instantly and still manages to almost win. Then game 3 he cheeses again, takes a gold, and just decides he doesn't care what units JYP is building and gets stomped by Colossus. Absolutely nothing in this series says JYP has a PvZ that actually wins. DRG just decided he didn't like winning.
As for the balance issues, PvT is a problem solely because of the 1-1-1 all in. Whether its possible to hold with a build doesn't make it fair. As Protoss you are forced to play in a very specific manner in order to ensure that you don't die to the 1-1-1 which limits your options to the extent that you end up behind coming out of the early game if they don't go 1-1-1 and you prepare for it. Think cliff drops ZvT on Lost Temple, but every single fucking map.
PvZ, I'm not entirely sold yet that there's an issue but I'm beginning to think so. Even with really refined openings (delicate 1 gate expos and forge FEs) it feels like it might be too hard to get pressure back on the zerg after it. Your 3 basic options are Blink aggression, straight to Robo play, often with a 3rd, and Stargate play. At first Toss were doing the first 2, then the Stargate got popular. Especially when the Stargate play was first happening, it looked like toss was in a fine place but now that zergs have adapted, I'm much less sure. It seems like no matter what you do off 2 base as toss, with some scouting and proper preparation, the zerg will just flat out be ahead. It always feels like you're playing from behind as you're taking a 3rd as toss, so you end up trying gimmicks like DT base sniping and hiding tech paths. Could be we just need to figure something out, but I'm more than a little frustrated.
I didn't feel like the Toss players including MC really played their best in general. It's like the GSL Toss players had a collective brain fart this season. I look forward to what HuK will do. I'm rooting for him to carry the Brotoss banner.
As far as 1-1-1 goes . . . I simply think a decent number of Toss players are behind in the meta game at this point. New strats develop and it takes a while for the other player/races to catch up. That's not imba as much as the pendulum swinging one way for a time.
Although it was aggravating how inane the QQ about Colo was during the era where they demolished . . . before opponents figured out how AA tears them apart.
On August 12 2011 09:07 iky43210 wrote: protoss is still not used to their full potential.
warp prison is rarely used, or multiple point attacks.
their builds are extremely one dimensional, and instead they should look for new innovative plays such as earlier HT tech etc
Yeah, but you can say the same about the other races as well. Ghosts only just recently seem to be seeing decent use and Ravens are still underused as it is. Heck, it was just MLG where we truly saw widespread use of Blue flame Hellions.
On August 12 2011 09:06 synkronized wrote: I didn't feel like the Toss players including MC really played their best in general. It's like the GSL Toss players had a collective brain fart this season. I look forward to what HuK will do. I'm rooting for him to carry the Brotoss banner.
As far as 1-1-1 goes . . . I simply think a decent number of Toss players are behind in the meta game at this point. New strats develop and it takes a while for the other player/races to catch up. That's not imba as much as the pendulum swinging one way for a time.
Although it was aggravating how inane the QQ about Colo was during the era where they demolished . . . before opponents figured out how AA tears them apart.
1-1-1 isn't new. This seems to be the biggest misconception for many people around here.
On August 12 2011 09:01 Keren wrote: Anyone who thinks JYP vs DRG was a good series for toss is mentally challenged. Game 1 DRG stomps the living shit out of JYP in the only straight up game. DRG decides to go for a 6 pool, has it scouted instantly and still manages to almost win. Then game 3 he cheeses again, takes a gold, and just decides he doesn't care what units JYP is building and gets stomped by Colossus. Absolutely nothing in this series says JYP has a PvZ that actually wins. DRG just decided he didn't like winning.
As for the balance issues, PvT is a problem solely because of the 1-1-1 all in. Whether its possible to hold with a build doesn't make it fair. As Protoss you are forced to play in a very specific manner in order to ensure that you don't die to the 1-1-1 which limits your options to the extent that you end up behind coming out of the early game if they don't go 1-1-1 and you prepare for it. Think cliff drops ZvT on Lost Temple, but every single fucking map.
PvZ, I'm not entirely sold yet that there's an issue but I'm beginning to think so. Even with really refined openings (delicate 1 gate expos and forge FEs) it feels like it might be too hard to get pressure back on the zerg after it. Your 3 basic options are Blink aggression, straight to Robo play, often with a 3rd, and Stargate play. At first Toss were doing the first 2, then the Stargate got popular. Especially when the Stargate play was first happening, it looked like toss was in a fine place but now that zergs have adapted, I'm much less sure. It seems like no matter what you do off 2 base as toss, with some scouting and proper preparation, the zerg will just flat out be ahead. It always feels like you're playing from behind as you're taking a 3rd as toss, so you end up trying gimmicks like DT base sniping and hiding tech paths. Could be we just need to figure something out, but I'm more than a little frustrated.
I think the problem with zerg is protoss just can't delay them anymore. That matchup was always gimmicky. where you'd have to pylon block ramps (removed), blow up expos with VRs (nerfed) or 4 gate them (nerfed) to slow them down because once mid game hit and they have 180 supply to 90 they just roll you with anything. Protoss try to FFE to keep up but then zergs learned you just take a 3rd upon seeing forge so same supply separation takes place 180 to 90. Protoss trys to take 3rd but it's too late with 40 larva they can summon 40 roach or 80 lings at drop of nexus.
Watch this vod if you want to see what happens to a macro & turtle toss who applies no pressure...it's ugly.
If you notice, successful terrans always apply massive pressure to zerg to stave off swarm.
Starting with 2 rax and 2 rax bunker pushes. Hellions. Drops all game. etc.
My contention is with various nerfs Protoss no longer that ability to pressure and force troops instead of economy except on a all in level. The pressure they can apply DTs/Air etc is all poor risk reward and usually puts them far behind.
Honestly I think the reason Protoss is doing so poorly is because ZvP is finally turning in favor of Zerg. The only person I hear arguing now that ZvP being P favored is Idra...but I think that's mostly because that's his weakest matchup personally, and he's got to complain about Zerg somehow.
Korea has a ton of really good Terrans due to a strong Terran tradition from a BW. Slayers in particular is really good at growing fantastic Terrans.
So it really comes down to ZvP for second place. Until recently, PvZ has been in the P's favor. Which is a big reason why there weren't many Zergs doing well in all the previous GSLs (except Nestea and Losira, who are exceptional).
Try naming a top-tier P. You've got MC and thats pretty much it. Killer/Genius flamed out after the beta as being mediocre players. HongUn is a lot like Anypro, flashes of genius but still mostly a bad player. Huk has done awesome internationally, but he hasn't accomplished much in the GSL. I don't think Alicia can be compared to heavyweights like MVP MKP Bomber MMA Nestea Losira. He's really good at PvT but that's pretty much it. He's a fantastic one-matchup specialist, much like Polt and Inca. Puzzle and Sage are promising future candidates, but its too early to tell.
I'm sure as the metagame shifts we'll see Protoss make a comeback.
On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote: I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
You got to understand that for terran, securing an expansion is more difficult than for toss/zerg. You don't have forcefields so you would have to make the bunkers before the CC, which would delay the the CC considerably.
I don't agree with that assessment at all... it takes a while to build up the gas and energy for a sentry force to defend an early expo. They also need a pylon before they can even warp in defensive structures. Zerg can't even make defensive structures until the hatch is complete and spreads creep. Terran on the otherhand can just build bunkers cheaply anytime with no requirements and can eventually salvage those bunkers for 75% of the cost. You could easily make the case it is still easier for Terran to expand even if you couldn't float the CC/OC.
I think disabling CC/OC-floating is a great idea and is very heavily tied into why current 1-base all-ins from Terran is so successful. It's not unstoppable per se, but the margin of error on protoss' side is so small unless you specifically were blind countering it. There is little you can react to since scouting information is sparse early game for protoss. You never want to devolve the early game into a roll of the dice.
PvZ is still very much in flux. Should let the dust settle a bit more.
One change I think would make protoss early game more interesting is evening out the balance of power between pre- and post-warpgate tech armies by reducing zealot/stalker buildtime by 5 secs but leaving their warp-in times unchanged (similar to what they did w/ sentries recently). It opens more aggressive options by protoss early on and will hopefully make it less rigid, while leaving the mid- to long- game completely unchanged.
How about make CC/OC floating an upgrade? Then in early game it isn't so hard to tell if there is a FE or not but mid-late game the terran can still float away into the corner and try to force a draw.
Sure it could be an upgrade, but I guess my question to you then is why would you want a mechanic whose function would mainly be to used to cause a draw. Nobody like playing/watching a game of "hide the CC." That aspect should of it be removed from the game entirely (i.e. all your buildings are still revealed if you have no CCs that are on the ground or something).
On August 12 2011 09:07 iky43210 wrote: protoss is still not used to their full potential.
warp prison is rarely used, or multiple point attacks.
their builds are extremely one dimensional, and instead they should look for new innovative plays such as earlier HT tech etc
multiple attack point is not the strength of a toss. A toss player should and always want to keep their main army together. It is up to the zerg and terran to split the toss apart. That is why anyone who understand the "races" would almost never suggest multiple point attacks. Warp prism is mehish at best. People have experimented with them(White ra and more recently JYP). They are very fragile and small amount of toss units can't do damage. We don't have reavers from BW. Or BFH which means our drops have to be extremely high tech(high temps) or usually just don't do any damage at all(zealot drops)
What JYP did to DRG in that game on Tal'Darim is the kind of strat that only works once. A warp prism loaded with HTs with storm fairly early in the game where you hope to warp in DTs without being seen and assume a probe transfer to the natural where you storm them all?
That's a really brilliant strategy but it's not something that is really repeatable with any regularity. Furthermore, even with how effective it was JYP barely scraped out a win that game which was opened with a fucking 6 pool of all things and he happened to scout DRG's base first. If that game isn't a shining example of what people have been bringing up in this thread then I don't know what is.
On August 12 2011 06:14 Jayrod wrote: I have a simple balance suggestions... its so simple it might even sound retarded, but I can almost guarantee that it would bring the win rates for TvP closer to 50% drastically. It would help against 1/1/1 by virtue of the fact that scouting it would become possible before its too late.
proposed change: remove the ability for command centers/orbitals to lift off. Not rax/facts/starports... only CC's/OC's.
completely non-drastic change that would remove a large part of the gamble that is waiting for an observer/phoenix/hallucinate and hoping you dont scout an all-in that its too late to prepare for.
You got to understand that for terran, securing an expansion is more difficult than for toss/zerg. You don't have forcefields so you would have to make the bunkers before the CC, which would delay the the CC considerably.
I don't agree with that assessment at all... it takes a while to build up the gas and energy for a sentry force to defend an early expo. They also need a pylon before they can even warp in defensive structures. Zerg can't even make defensive structures until the hatch is complete and spreads creep. Terran on the otherhand can just build bunkers cheaply anytime with no requirements and can eventually salvage those bunkers for 75% of the cost. You could easily make the case it is still easier for Terran to expand even if you couldn't float the CC/OC.
I think disabling CC/OC-floating is a great idea and is very heavily tied into why current 1-base all-ins from Terran is so successful. It's not unstoppable per se, but the margin of error on protoss' side is so small unless you specifically were blind countering it. There is little you can react to since scouting information is sparse early game for protoss. You never want to devolve the early game into a roll of the dice.
PvZ is still very much in flux. Should let the dust settle a bit more.
One change I think would make protoss early game more interesting is evening out the balance of power between pre- and post-warpgate tech armies by reducing zealot/stalker buildtime by 5 secs but leaving their warp-in times unchanged (similar to what they did w/ sentries recently). It opens more aggressive options by protoss early on and will hopefully make it less rigid, while leaving the mid- to long- game completely unchanged.
How about make CC/OC floating an upgrade? Then in early game it isn't so hard to tell if there is a FE or not but mid-late game the terran can still float away into the corner and try to force a draw.
Sure it could be an upgrade, but I guess my question to you then is why would you want a mechanic whose function would mainly be to used to cause a draw. Nobody like playing/watching a game of "hide the CC." That aspect should of it be removed from the game entirely (i.e. all your buildings are still revealed if you have no CCs that are on the ground or something).
Haha the draw thing was mainly a joke, although it does sometimes make some pretty exciting games with terran running around. There are other reasons for lifting, eg islands and avoiding tanks/banelings/roaches etc. Being revealed in the air would be pretty funny, especially if the time until revealed stayed so terrans were flying around trying to safely land their CC then lift again to reset the timer.
On August 12 2011 09:01 Keren wrote: Anyone who thinks JYP vs DRG was a good series for toss is mentally challenged. Game 1 DRG stomps the living shit out of JYP in the only straight up game. DRG decides to go for a 6 pool, has it scouted instantly and still manages to almost win. Then game 3 he cheeses again, takes a gold, and just decides he doesn't care what units JYP is building and gets stomped by Colossus. Absolutely nothing in this series says JYP has a PvZ that actually wins. DRG just decided he didn't like winning.
As for the balance issues, PvT is a problem solely because of the 1-1-1 all in. Whether its possible to hold with a build doesn't make it fair. As Protoss you are forced to play in a very specific manner in order to ensure that you don't die to the 1-1-1 which limits your options to the extent that you end up behind coming out of the early game if they don't go 1-1-1 and you prepare for it. Think cliff drops ZvT on Lost Temple, but every single fucking map.
PvZ, I'm not entirely sold yet that there's an issue but I'm beginning to think so. Even with really refined openings (delicate 1 gate expos and forge FEs) it feels like it might be too hard to get pressure back on the zerg after it. Your 3 basic options are Blink aggression, straight to Robo play, often with a 3rd, and Stargate play. At first Toss were doing the first 2, then the Stargate got popular. Especially when the Stargate play was first happening, it looked like toss was in a fine place but now that zergs have adapted, I'm much less sure. It seems like no matter what you do off 2 base as toss, with some scouting and proper preparation, the zerg will just flat out be ahead. It always feels like you're playing from behind as you're taking a 3rd as toss, so you end up trying gimmicks like DT base sniping and hiding tech paths. Could be we just need to figure something out, but I'm more than a little frustrated.
I think the problem with zerg is protoss just can't delay them anymore. That matchup was always gimmicky. where you'd have to pylon block ramps (removed), blow up expos with VRs (nerfed) or 4 gate them (nerfed) to slow them down because once mid game hit and they have 180 supply to 90 they just roll you with anything. Protoss try to FFE to keep up but then zergs learned you just take a 3rd upon seeing forge so same supply separation takes place 180 to 90. Protoss trys to take 3rd but it's too late with 40 larva they can summon 40 roach or 80 lings at drop of nexus.
If you notice, successful terrans always apply massive pressure to zerg to stave off swarm.
Starting with 2 rax and 2 rax bunker pushes. Hellions. Drops all game. etc.
My contention is with various nerfs Protoss no longer that ability to pressure and force troops instead of economy except on a all in level. The pressure they can apply DTs/Air etc is all poor risk reward and usually puts them far behind.
Wow that video really showed how good roaches are lol ^^.
On August 12 2011 09:07 iky43210 wrote: protoss is still not used to their full potential.
warp prison is rarely used, or multiple point attacks.
their builds are extremely one dimensional, and instead they should look for new innovative plays such as earlier HT tech etc
multiple attack point is not the strength of a toss. A toss player should and always want to keep their main army together. It is up to the zerg and terran to split the toss apart. That is why anyone who understand the "races" would almost never suggest multiple point attacks. Warp prism is mehish at best. People have experimented with them(White ra and more recently JYP). They are very fragile and small amount of toss units can't do damage. We don't have reavers from BW. Or BFH which means our drops have to be extremely high tech(high temps) or usually just don't do any damage at all(zealot drops)
It works in lategame where you have a scary deathball. Early to mid game it's too much of an invest. However, in the lategame you can force him to acknowledge that you might run in and attack him. During these pokes, the protoss can warp in zealots into another base. Also, while the deathball might not survive, you can continue warping everywhere.
Since YOU attacked, he HAS to defend. You can warp in 10 zealots there, 10 zealots there (remember, lategame), and during all this you can rebuild another army of death. You get an economy while he doesn't because chargelots destroy SCV lines.
On August 12 2011 09:07 iky43210 wrote: protoss is still not used to their full potential.
warp prison is rarely used, or multiple point attacks.
their builds are extremely one dimensional, and instead they should look for new innovative plays such as earlier HT tech etc
multiple attack point is not the strength of a toss. A toss player should and always want to keep their main army together. It is up to the zerg and terran to split the toss apart. That is why anyone who understand the "races" would almost never suggest multiple point attacks. Warp prism is mehish at best. People have experimented with them(White ra and more recently JYP). They are very fragile and small amount of toss units can't do damage. We don't have reavers from BW. Or BFH which means our drops have to be extremely high tech(high temps) or usually just don't do any damage at all(zealot drops)
It works in lategame where you have a scary deathball. Early to mid game it's too much of an invest. However, in the lategame you can force him to acknowledge that you might run in and attack him. During these pokes, the protoss can warp in zealots into another base. Also, while the deathball might not survive, you can continue warping everywhere.
Since YOU attacked, he HAS to defend. You can warp in 10 zealots there, 10 zealots there (remember, lategame), and during all this you can rebuild another army of death. You get an economy while he doesn't because chargelots destroy SCV lines.
If you have a scary deathball, the Terran is unlikely to just be chilling in the middle of the map and will be easily in position to split a few marauders/marines and a medivac to clean up your chargelots. Not to mention that if the SCVs get pulled quickly the damage will be further negated. Also as previously mentioned warp prisms are complete glass cannons, really all it takes is a viking or a few marines on a ledge and it's toast. I've been trying my best to utilise them more but I find the chargelots don't do enough damage to justify it, and if unexpected marines are anywhere nearby your warp prism is toast.
The actual interesting use I've seen is immortal drops to snipe add-ons, you can delay their tech and timings significantly. This is with speed naturally but if you warp in zealots with the prism's field and send them to the ramp, you can buy enough time to snipe a few add-ons
EPT
