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On August 12 2011 09:07 iky43210 wrote:
protoss is still not used to their full potential.
warp prison is rarely used, or multiple point attacks.
their builds are extremely one dimensional, and instead they should look for new innovative plays such as earlier HT tech etc
It's been pretty well shown and explained that Warp Prism harass is cost ineffective, as are multi-pronged attacks. Any earlier HT tech is almost definitely more of a detriment because of the immense gas sink that HT are.
I didn't feel like the Toss players including MC really played their best in general. It's like the GSL Toss players had a collective brain fart this season. I look forward to what HuK will do. I'm rooting for him to carry the Brotoss banner.
As far as 1-1-1 goes . . . I simply think a decent number of Toss players are behind in the meta game at this point. New strats develop and it takes a while for the other player/races to catch up. That's not imba as much as the pendulum swinging one way for a time.
Although it was aggravating how inane the QQ about Colo was during the era where they demolished . . . before opponents figured out how AA tears them apart.
The problem with PvT is that the pendulum hasn't swung in P's favor. Ever. It's either been even or in T's favor.
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Part of the problem seems to be that lots of people, including casters and Zerg/terran players overrate the protoss units and think that just because they are so expensive and look flashy, they most also be powerful.
the High templar is a good example. if you look closely youd notice that it is pretty much the weakest high tech caster in the game but also the most expensive to tech to. And people are too blinded by hype/brood war memories of HT to see this.
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I feel we have to look at the Zerg Metagame slump and apply what the Zerg did to reverse this slump on the Protoss.
1. Zerg figured out the DT and Stargate timings.
2. Zerg incorporated large use of Drops to abuse both Terran Mech and Protoss Death Ball immobility.
3. Zerg found the power of roach-ling aggresion to punish greedy Protoss.
4. Blizzard buffed the Infestor to allow Zerg a fighting chance against Protoss Mid-Late game armies. (Remember when fungal didn't stop blink)
The question is, can Protoss make similar changes or will a Step 4 be nessesary?
Here are a few unexplored, theoretical options:
1. Abuse Chronoboost. The great Korean Terrans Mule every 50 energy, and Zerg spit every 25. Why shouldn't Protoss do it, even on 3 bases. Zerg and Terran do it on 3 bases.
2. Abuse Warp Gate "Map Hacks." Actively place pylons in strategic places around the map. Imagine a pylon placed behind the 1-1-1 Contain which allowed you to cut off reinforcements and then crush it by attacking from two sides?
3. React to the opponents aggression. Is he constantly dropping and poking at my army? Ok I'll do the same with pylons/Warp Prisms OR Is he passively macroing? Ok, I build to my Death-ball while expanding.
4. Figure out the 1-1-1 Timing. Be prepared.
5. Go back to old school 3 Gate 1 Robo Busts to mix it up and punish greedy low rax Bio expands.
All these are theoretical and only involve cleaning up or refining your gameplay.
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On August 12 2011 11:35 Kajarn wrote:
I feel we have to look at the Zerg Metagame slump and apply what the Zerg did to reverse this slump on the Protoss.
1. Zerg figured out the DT and Stargate timings.
2. Zerg incorporated large use of Drops to abuse both Terran Mech and Protoss Death Ball immobility.
3. Zerg found the power of roach-ling aggresion to punish greedy Protoss.
4. Blizzard buffed the Infestor to allow Zerg a fighting chance against Protoss Mid-Late game armies. (Remember when fungal didn't stop blink)
The question is, can Protoss make similar changes or will a Step 4 be nessesary?
Here are a few unexplored, theoretical options:
1. Abuse Chronoboost. The great Korean Terrans Mule every 50 energy, and Zerg spit every 25. Why shouldn't Protoss do it, even on 3 bases. Zerg and Terran do it on 3 bases.
2. Abuse Warp Gate "Map Hacks." Actively place pylons in strategic places around the map. Imagine a pylon placed behind the 1-1-1 Contain which allowed you to cut off reinforcements and then crush it by attacking from two sides?
3. React to the opponents aggression. Is he constantly dropping and poking at my army? Ok I'll do the same with pylons/Warp Prisms OR Is he passively macroing? Ok, I build to my Death-ball while expanding.
4. Figure out the 1-1-1 Timing. Be prepared.
5. Go back to old school 3 Gate 1 Robo Busts to mix it up and punish greedy low rax Bio expands.
All these are theoretical and only involve cleaning up or refining your gameplay.
1. Comparing Chrono Boost to MULEs and Larva Inject is ridiculous. The advantage Chrono Boost provides is extremely small compared to the MULEs and Larva Inject -- even more so during mid and late game (Not that I'm complaining).
2. Players do this already.
3. The Warp Prism has been discussed a great deal, and while it is used less than it should be, it is nowhere near a potent as a Medivac and its contents.
4. Everyone knows the 'timing' of it.
5. This is very map dependant and Terran can see it coming quite easily.
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On August 12 2011 11:35 Kajarn wrote:
1. Abuse Chronoboost. The great Korean Terrans Mule every 50 energy, and Zerg spit every 25. Why shouldn't Protoss do it, even on 3 bases. Zerg and Terran do it on 3 bases.
2. Abuse Warp Gate "Map Hacks." Actively place pylons in strategic places around the map. Imagine a pylon placed behind the 1-1-1 Contain which allowed you to cut off reinforcements and then crush it by attacking from two sides?
3. React to the opponents aggression. Is he constantly dropping and poking at my army? Ok I'll do the same with pylons/Warp Prisms OR Is he passively macroing? Ok, I build to my Death-ball while expanding.
4. Figure out the 1-1-1 Timing. Be prepared.
5. Go back to old school 3 Gate 1 Robo Busts to mix it up and punish greedy low rax Bio expands.
All these are theoretical and only involve cleaning up or refining your gameplay.
1. top protoss players use chronoboost to the full potential. lol
2. protoss doesnt have zerglings. gateway units are slow and weak in low numbers, and therefor suck at taking out terran reinforcements. just because something works out for one race doesnt mean every race can do it. different units, different strategies.
3. protoss units are terrible for drop purpose. you can compare it to terran medievac drops
4. people know the timing very well. people are prepared. people tried every possible build and unit composition but everything dies to the tank banshee raven marine combo. if you are smart, you'd figure out why.
5. Terran learned how to prepare and deal with it.
i find it funny that you think that the protoss players who play this game 8-10 hours a day didnt try this stuff already. people have experimented with the warp prism for months but came to the conclusion that its just not effective in most situations because protoss dont have good harass units.
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PvZ is hard because of the ling bling new style
PvT is hard because Korean Terrans are very good players
PvP is not hard for protoss.
Protoss is lacking good players since everybody thinks its easy race
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On August 12 2011 11:46 Omegastorm wrote:
P
Protoss is lacking good players since everybody thinks its easy race
Almost all players picked their race in the beta long before idra gave birth to the "protoss ez" myth. thats a retarded argument sine everyone knows protoss has many extremely good players.
its true though that few good players pick protoss nowdays, but thats because the race is rigid and one dimensional.
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I have figured out the roach ling timing. But there is no way to scout as lings have map control. If the Zerg don't go for roach ling all in, and I prepare for it, I am behind. Hallucination is always out too late. The only problem lies w Protoss ability to scout early game. Zealot use to give protoss map control in BW. Is not we don't want to scout, is we can't scout. If u don't play protoss, don't pretend you know what is happening. We don't wish to play risky, we can't play too safe too. Cause we have problem scouting the map.
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alot of posters here says protoss aren't meant for multi-point attack, and I got to ask why.
warp prism drop HT can destroy an entire mineral line in faster than hellions ever could. or drop a couple of zealot while pushing will decimate his mineral line as well at almost no cost. And since most zerg don't go muta against toss, you are almost sure to get those zealots or HT out of the harassments.
just because protoss didn't have to harass and multi attack in the past doesn't excuse them for not needing to do them now. If zerg doesn't go mutas, terran would be abusing drop left and right. I don't know why protoss doesn't feel the need to exploit such. They could even use warp prison to protect HT from EMP or use them to land perfect storms/feedback.
There are also mothership, though gimmicky, can be gamebreaking if timed right.
Most pro protoss players have just been playing incredibly stale right now, even their build order are static. It is no wonder that terran and zerg, which both are constantly changing, are ahead of the curve
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On August 12 2011 11:59 iky43210 wrote:
alot of posters here says protoss aren't meant for multi-point attack, and I got to ask why.
warp prism drop HT can destroy an entire mineral line in faster than hellions ever could. or drop a couple of zealot while pushing will decimate his mineral line as well at almost no cost. And since most zerg don't go muta against toss, you are almost sure to get those zealots or HT out of the harassments.
just because protoss didn't have to harass and multi attack in the past doesn't excuse them for not needing to do them now.
There are also mothership, though gimmicky, can be gamebreaking if timed right.
Most pro protoss players have just been playing incredibly stale right now, even their build order are static. It is no wonder that terran and zerg, which both are constantly changing, are ahead of the curve
1. neither HT or zealots are good for cleaning up mineral lines, because all the opponent has to do is pull away their workers until troops arrive. zealots are too slow (even with speed upgrade)to effectively chase down probes and workers easily survive 1 storm if you pull them out in time. Also, you cant compare HT to banelings or hellions because both of them are cheap and acessible while HTs are expensive and require the highest tech investment in the entire toss tech tree.
2. its not the players that are stale, its the race itself. when will people ever learn that?
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On August 12 2011 11:59 iky43210 wrote:
alot of posters here says protoss aren't meant for multi-point attack, and I got to ask why.
warp prism drop HT can destroy an entire mineral line in faster than hellions ever could. or drop a couple of zealot while pushing will decimate his mineral line as well at almost no cost. And since most zerg don't go muta against toss, you are almost sure to get those zealots or HT out of the harassments.
just because protoss didn't have to harass and multi attack in the past doesn't excuse them for not needing to do them now. If zerg doesn't go mutas, terran would be abusing drop left and right. I don't know why protoss doesn't feel the need to exploit such. They could even use warp prison to protect HT from EMP or use them to land perfect storms/feedback.
There are also mothership, though gimmicky, can be gamebreaking if timed right.
Most pro protoss players have just been playing incredibly stale right now, even their build order are static. It is no wonder that terran and zerg, which both are constantly changing, are ahead of the curve
Hey man, can we just assume that the people we're playing against are good?
Storming drones is awesome, if the drones sit there and don't run away. The reason hellion drops are a MILLION times better than any other drop, is because they can catch the workers even if the player tries to run them.
Zealots in a mineral line........ are not going to kill anything - they run slower than workers, charge gaurentee's 16 damage - this is not going to kill a worker. Zealots will auto attack the queen first as well.
When your units are designed to have great synergy together - splitting them apart doesn't make sense.
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On August 12 2011 11:59 iky43210 wrote:
alot of posters here says protoss aren't meant for multi-point attack, and I got to ask why.
warp prism drop HT can destroy an entire mineral line in faster than hellions ever could. or drop a couple of zealot while pushing will decimate his mineral line as well at almost no cost. And since most zerg don't go muta against toss, you are almost sure to get those zealots or HT out of the harassments.
just because protoss didn't have to harass and multi attack in the past doesn't excuse them for not needing to do them now. If zerg doesn't go mutas, terran would be abusing drop left and right. I don't know why protoss doesn't feel the need to exploit such. They could even use warp prison to protect HT from EMP or use them to land perfect storms/feedback.
DT -> the moment zerg sees DT 2 spines and a spore go up at each base. Suddenly he is safe from multi-pronged DT harass.
Warpprism HT. Unlike bane, mm drops, the HT is slower than workers, and you can run from storm with good reaction time.
Dropping both stalkers and zealots is a horrible idea. Until charge, a fast pull will result in ZERO losses, and even with charge, maybe 1-2? Stalkers don't clear mineral lines in small numbers period.
You know why we don't see templar in a warpprism? Terrans blindly get 1-2 vikings normally the moment they see a robo. Warpprism's are just too soft to realistically carry templar around when the terran army has vikings.
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they need the reaver! need a specialist shuttle unit, that is for harrassing. protoss harrass isnt seen often enough
i enjoy watching white ras usage of warp prism. reminds me of brood war, saw him ferrying high temps in it earlier. but for example vs T it's sooooo vulnerable to stimmed marines that it seems too weak.
in bw PvT terran would virtually always go mech, no marines making shuttles actually useful
edit:i totally forgot about vikings lol. yeah sc2 protoss harassment is only ever good because it's so ineffective nobody expects it and it has the element of surprise!
it's all about cost effectiveness. the resources required to tech to and support even one drop as protoss is ridiculous compared to for example terran where medivacs and marines have to be produced anyway.
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sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
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What do you guys think about making hallucinate an innate ability of sentry? Or like 50/50 and even quicker research than it already is. Or making hallucinated observers detect??
I think these could help solve a lot of protoss scouting problems early and give some more options.
I also think that this may help against the 1-1-1 all in because you can hallucinate units to tank some damage?
Just an idea I have had for a while...
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On August 12 2011 11:59 iky43210 wrote:
alot of posters here says protoss aren't meant for multi-point attack, and I got to ask why.
warp prism drop HT can destroy an entire mineral line in faster than hellions ever could. or drop a couple of zealot while pushing will decimate his mineral line as well at almost no cost. And since most zerg don't go muta against toss, you are almost sure to get those zealots or HT out of the harassments.
just because protoss didn't have to harass and multi attack in the past doesn't excuse them for not needing to do them now. If zerg doesn't go mutas, terran would be abusing drop left and right. I don't know why protoss doesn't feel the need to exploit such. They could even use warp prison to protect HT from EMP or use them to land perfect storms/feedback.
There are also mothership, though gimmicky, can be gamebreaking if timed right.
Most pro protoss players have just been playing incredibly stale right now, even their build order are static. It is no wonder that terran and zerg, which both are constantly changing, are ahead of the curve
Have you considered that protoss play is "stale" right now because there are NO viable alternatives?
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And why is it that toss is the only race whose tier 3 air is completely useless in 99.9999% of games?
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One simple thing that is making PvZ on a higher level hard for Protoss is the fact that early game, you CANNOT do anything to zerg to the point where they dont stop droning very very early. This is what can cripple the protoss because if you try to compete with zerg on bases/drones, they will have their WAY before you and just overrun you with a higher unit timing with upgrades. Day9 has stated that Protoss just simply can't do anything other than cannon rush but even then you might come out even. In PvT, the warpgate research time is what fucked that much up all over the place. Because of this, as stated, the terran can freely do a CC first or a 1 rax into CC and have no fear of anything because all it takes is 1-2 bunkers and then their tech to ghost with a fast +1 armor and weapons just overruns the Protoss's gateway units. Not to mention the ghost can null atleast 3 key units for Protoss against Terran (Immortals, HTs and Archons). Something has to happen either in the meta game or in game otherwise people are always going to be one step ahead of protoss.
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On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote:
sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
but it costs so many resources for protoss to support any kind of drop play that if it doesn't deal significant damage the army ball will be noticeably smaller and in danger of being run over. compared to terran or zerg if their drop play doesn't work their army isn't significantly weakened because of it.
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On August 12 2011 12:29 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote:
sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
but it costs so many resources for protoss to support any kind of drop play that if it doesn't deal significant damage the army ball will be noticeably smaller and in danger of being run over. compared to terran or zerg if their drop play doesn't work their army isn't significantly weakened because of it.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism. It isn't an significant damage, especially when gas is most likely your limiting resources.
Warp Prism becomes the fastest moving unit with upgrade, so if you have good micro you will have minimal loses when doing drop/pickup with it.
consider the alternative of being able to land great storms and protecting HT from EMP and snipe, in addition to being able to drop and pressure their econ, i'll say its worth it.
I don't personally play protoss, nor do i care about that race, but I see the potential in warp prism play that can change how protoss approaches the game. It took terran months to realize how great hellion is, and there's much many more pros that play the race. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if someone eventually pick up WP and uses it to its full potential in the future.
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