EPTfungal, corrupter, hydra
vikings, stim rines
it's only good in PvP, -_-
Protoss in GSL August - Page 24
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Predateur
Canada79 Posts
fungal, corrupter, hydra vikings, stim rines it's only good in PvP, -_- | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On August 12 2011 07:19 MonkSEA wrote: Sorry but you're pretty arrogant. I think against Z you can easily do carriers from a forge fast because generally you'll already have a stargate. Dunno man. Carriers in numbers are pretty devastating. You can but if Zerg scouts it, he can just drop you with mass units off or take a few extra bases and mass corrupters or infestors. Going Carriers after FFE is just praying that your opponent is bad or doesn't know how to respond. Carriers are pretty good IF you can get them, but you certainly can't do it off 2 bases vs a competent opponent. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On August 12 2011 05:35 ZenithM wrote: What's so special is that DRG 6pooled in game 2 and JYP defended it and DRG cheesed the gold base on metalopolis and didn't scout at all JYP's tech. J/k, JYP played well in all 3 games  (but that's really what happened though, not sure if DRG needed to do that)Oh, so he just played a good game and won against a Zerg? | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On August 12 2011 06:32 Zane wrote: You got to understand that for terran, securing an expansion is more difficult than for toss/zerg. You don't have forcefields so you would have to make the bunkers before the CC, which would delay the the CC considerably. I don't agree with that assessment at all... it takes a while to build up the gas and energy for a sentry force to defend an early expo. They also need a pylon before they can even warp in defensive structures. Zerg can't even make defensive structures until the hatch is complete and spreads creep. Terran on the otherhand can just build bunkers cheaply anytime with no requirements and can eventually salvage those bunkers for 75% of the cost. You could easily make the case it is still easier for Terran to expand even if you couldn't float the CC/OC. I think disabling CC/OC-floating is a great idea and is very heavily tied into why current 1-base all-ins from Terran is so successful. It's not unstoppable per se, but the margin of error on protoss' side is so small unless you specifically were blind countering it. There is little you can react to since scouting information is sparse early game for protoss. You never want to devolve the early game into a roll of the dice. PvZ is still very much in flux. Should let the dust settle a bit more. One change I think would make protoss early game more interesting is evening out the balance of power between pre- and post-warpgate tech armies by reducing zealot/stalker buildtime by 5 secs but leaving their warp-in times unchanged (similar to what they did w/ sentries recently). It opens more aggressive options by protoss early on and will hopefully make it less rigid, while leaving the mid- to long- game completely unchanged. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On August 12 2011 07:19 MonkSEA wrote: Sorry but you're pretty arrogant. I think against Z you can easily do carriers from a forge fast because generally you'll already have a stargate. Dunno man. Carriers in numbers are pretty devastating. No, it's not viable. I know you are trying to offer some ideas and be helpful but it is clear you do not play protoss. A zerg will macro his way so far ahead of you you will have no chance even if you do manage to get a carrier army out. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On August 12 2011 07:27 aZealot wrote: Oh, so he just played a good game and won against a Zerg? Yep, pretty much. Those were good games. He even tried fancy stuff with sentry drops and HT drops, not too effective but cool to see. PvTs, on the other hand... | ||
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ExO_
United States2316 Posts
That being said, I think as it's been mentioned before, Protoss gateway units (except for HT storm) do no cost effectively trade with the other races tier 1-1.5 units, and as the game continues to develop and more and more timings discovered, Protoss players will be continually pressured in a way such that they have to delay getting their high tech units out to survive, which will end up in T/Z players getting a huge advantage from which they can defeat their opponents. | ||
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quiet noise
599 Posts
On August 12 2011 07:19 MonkSEA wrote: Sorry but you're pretty arrogant. I think against Z you can easily do carriers from a forge fast because generally you'll already have a stargate. Dunno man. Carriers in numbers are pretty devastating. neural parasite. and you cant afford HT+Carriers until very late game | ||
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Xercen
United Kingdom375 Posts
On August 12 2011 06:44 HolyArrow wrote: On some maps, it's not suitable for usage, so there's that. It's being used to a VERY high degree, with literally a 100% success rate since the Up/Downs of the last GSL. You see Yoda vs. Tassadar yesterday? He loses game 1, then proceeds to do two 1-1-1 all-ins in a row to win the series. Tassadar was laughing to himself afterwards, probably because he knows it's ridiculous. I challenge you to name me a GSL match since last season's Up/Downs in which the 1-1-1 all-in was successfully stopped. A single match. Go. if 1-1-1's are used with that much frequency then i don't see why we would debating in this thread because it WILL be nerfed. Every strat that was blatantly OP and constantly used like reapers and 4 gate will be nerfed. | ||
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sethr0
Canada20 Posts
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On August 12 2011 07:46 sethr0 wrote: this thread has turned into a balance debate, I hope this thread gets closed. Yes in this GSL Protoss players are getting dominated (...so far). Just last GSL the Code A finals was a PvP. All this shows is how amazing the sc2 scene is, able to adapt so quickly. Metagame turnaround is so fast, just wait for Protoss players to adapt! The problem with people saying that we need to "wait for Protoss players to adapt" is that the 1-1-1 all-in has been around for a long time - first time I saw it was Rain vs. Genius in GSL Open Season 3 - well over half a year ago. I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the ability of Toss players to adapt if the build was something new, but it isn't. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:23 Demonaz wrote: Protoss are basically where Zerg were two months ago when everyone was complaining that z are too weak and underpowered. Seems that most of the 'abusive' p strats have been figured out and along with the 4-gate nerf its made it harder for the moment. However I'm sure something will be figured out soon, c'mon protoss players, get to work! They didnt figure shit out. After 6 months of throwing thier hands up toss and terran got nerfed and zerg got buffed. SD before rax, massive VR nerf, KA removal, WG nerf and so on. Infestor now do damage at twice the rate as before and even more to armored which most protoss is. Blizzard "figured it out" and they will "figure out" how toss can have parity again. And it's pretty insulting to tell these pros who put in hundreds of hours to "get to work". | ||
Heavenly
2172 Posts
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On August 12 2011 08:09 HolyArrow wrote: The problem with people saying that we need to "wait for Protoss players to adapt" is that the 1-1-1 all-in has been around for a long time - first time I saw it was Rain vs. Genius in GSL Open Season 3 - well over half a year ago. I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the ability of Toss players to adapt if the build was something new, but it isn't. It's been around since beta and easily stopped before with 3 gate stargate or 4 gate all ins which is why it diappeared. Problem now is VR only does 26 to that bunker instead of 41 on the 3 gate stargate. With 4 gate now bunker(s) have 6 rines and tank and it's defensible, where before you'd have no tank by then and less marines in bunker(s). Troops just don't come fast enough or hit hard enough to punish this tech greed and thus it's back. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
Protoss newbies dont expect that you will get buffed because you whine alot, the 4gate "nerf" so many ppl are citing wasnt even a nerf to the PvT version of 4gate so I don't know what you are smoking (the most powerful PvT varients did not hit the second wgs finished). All the terran whining about TvP lategame with bio somehow resulted in a thor nerf so watch out, you might just get the carrier nerfed or somthing. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 12 2011 08:36 tdt wrote: It's been around since beta and easily stopped before with 3 gate stargate or 4 gate all ins which is why it diappeared. Problem now is VR only does 26 to that bunker instead of 41 on the 3 gate stargate. With 4 gate now bunker(s) have 6 rines and tank and it's defensible, where before you'd have no tank by then and less marines in bunker(s). Troops just don't come fast enough or hit hard enough to punish this tech greed and thus it's back. Also the game is fundamentally broken if the only way to beat a build is to allin it before it happens. There should ALWAYS be a defensive solution to a build. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On August 12 2011 08:38 statikg wrote: There are multiple guides in the strategy forums for how to hold this successfully right now, IMO protoss just need to go very heavy zealot/sentry and maybe even pull some probes if they expect to hold it. Why should you be able to hold a 10-15scv push without pulling some of your workers esp when you are on 2 base to 1. Chrono out +1 armor and you will be golden. first you say theres many guides on how to hold it in the strat forum then your "advice" on how to hold it is straight up wrong zealot/sentry will not hold this. the sieged tanks take out the sentries quickly ending guardian shield quickly so, now that your advice is completely wrong... what is the point of your post?? | ||
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quiet noise
599 Posts
On August 12 2011 08:35 Heavenly wrote: Time for me to go pro and bust out my revolutionary one base carrier + warp prism 4 gate to the world. The revolution protoss has been waiting for, according to most people. go get them dude, ill make your falclub. | ||
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quiet noise
599 Posts
On August 12 2011 08:38 statikg wrote: All the terran whining about TvP lategame with bio somehow resulted in a thor nerf so watch out, you might just get the carrier nerfed or somthing. Agee. Now, where is my Khayderian amulet again? seriously, your post is one of the most daft things i have read in a while. Thors were nerfed because thorzains thor rush was equally hard to hold as the 1/1/1. not because terrans whined about Bio. what has that got to do with anything? thor rush was nerfed because it was next to impossible to hold. same reason why blizzard will/should also nerf the 1/1/1. your post is fucking stupid | ||
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BRJ
New Zealand19 Posts
On August 12 2011 07:28 Skyro wrote: I don't agree with that assessment at all... it takes a while to build up the gas and energy for a sentry force to defend an early expo. They also need a pylon before they can even warp in defensive structures. Zerg can't even make defensive structures until the hatch is complete and spreads creep. Terran on the otherhand can just build bunkers cheaply anytime with no requirements and can eventually salvage those bunkers for 75% of the cost. You could easily make the case it is still easier for Terran to expand even if you couldn't float the CC/OC. I think disabling CC/OC-floating is a great idea and is very heavily tied into why current 1-base all-ins from Terran is so successful. It's not unstoppable per se, but the margin of error on protoss' side is so small unless you specifically were blind countering it. There is little you can react to since scouting information is sparse early game for protoss. You never want to devolve the early game into a roll of the dice. PvZ is still very much in flux. Should let the dust settle a bit more. One change I think would make protoss early game more interesting is evening out the balance of power between pre- and post-warpgate tech armies by reducing zealot/stalker buildtime by 5 secs but leaving their warp-in times unchanged (similar to what they did w/ sentries recently). It opens more aggressive options by protoss early on and will hopefully make it less rigid, while leaving the mid- to long- game completely unchanged. How about make CC/OC floating an upgrade? Then in early game it isn't so hard to tell if there is a FE or not but mid-late game the terran can still float away into the corner and try to force a draw. | ||
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