|
On August 12 2011 12:37 Tezzick wrote:
I think it would be cool if they made CB more effective late-game.
Maybe decreasing its energy requirement once the game passes a certain time, or increasing its longevity by a few seconds.
I don't even know if that would even help that much at all, but its something.
I don't like resorting to balance changes though, there just needs to be more creative protoss players out there. Players like Sage or even MC could come out with some brilliant new army comp or strat that finally breaks toss' out of their slump.
Either way, thats my 2 cents lol.
the problem is, we already have to throw everything and the kitchen sink at terrrans and zergs to win. You really cant innovate if your already using everything. What could we possibly use more of? at end game we already pretty much have all of our gate way units in our unit comp and most of our robo units countered. That leaves what? voids are already spammed reactionary against brood lords, the only thing you dont see every is carrier/mothership. even then thats near impossible to transistion into and stop ling run byes with slow units... White-ra has had some success by forge expanding straight into 2 base carrier but nothing revolutionary...
alot of the problems could be fixed by giving us attack upgrades and stuff on our cannons for defense. that way putting 2 cannons behind your mineral line will actually deter mutas, and overlords from dropping. same with terran. as the old way to easily stop terran drops was to warp in HT with the amulet. which cant be done anymore. or something else that would be cool is to allow us to chrono boost cannons so they shoot faster...
|
On August 12 2011 12:47 haka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:32 iky43210 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:29 ThePianoDentist wrote:On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote:
sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
but it costs so many resources for protoss to support any kind of drop play that if it doesn't deal significant damage the army ball will be noticeably smaller and in danger of being run over. compared to terran or zerg if their drop play doesn't work their army isn't significantly weakened because of it. 300/100 is all you need for warp prism. Well, for a fast prism: Robotics Facility: 200/100 Warp Prism: 200 Robotics Bay: 200/200 Gravitic Drives: 100/100 And then for the expensive harass options: Twilight Council: 150/100 Templar Archives: 150/200 and/or Dark Shrine: 100/250 Its just way too expensive and takes too long. And if you can somehow survive in getting speedprism, HT, DT, and gates you HAVE to do damage. You invest too much. It might work but eventually Z will throw pre-emptive spores and spines at all their bases. Harass shuts down. They'll figure out timings where we're teching too fast. We're back to square one. I'm all for thinking of different ways of playing but you make it sound like protoss tech is so readily available and accessible.
I dunno why you even bothered replying to him, aside from making a stupid arguement he didn't even get his figures right; Warp prism costs 400/100 (Robo 200/100, Warp Prism 200min). It is pretty clear that a lot of people in here have never actually played protoss at all, and their useless banter is quite frustrating to read.
|
On August 12 2011 13:02 Mutality wrote:
protoss player's need to expand their range of styles jyp's warp prisms gave me nerd chills. ~ Protoss players have mostly been doing the same thing for longer than any other race because it was working just look at zerg we explored soo many different styles because we were struggling now we have variety i think protoss players need to explore more styles like that sentry drop from JYP was amazing
protoss players need to start evolving just like the other races did and they'll start winning again
Dude everyone in this thread said a billion times. The reason why zergs started to incorporate infestors was due to a huge buff that decimate both armored/unarmored units. Toss have been exploring new tactics.
2 base double robo colossus against zergs
colossus+mass stalker
colossus+stalker+void rays
2 base high gateway pressure(6-7 gate)
mass blink stalker
Forge opening into mass gateway(remember this was at one time thought to be impossible due
to roach rushes).
Dt openings
Stargate opening
3 gate expo
forge or 1 gate Fe into stargate to deny 3rd+roach pressure
templar zealot archon
templar zealot immortal
1 base 3 gate/stargate void ray to attack walled front
1 base void rays+3 gate warpin
All of those were builds/opening that waas developed as the game progressed. Protoss have been innovating builds timings and more.
|
You cannot factor in already necessary tech and call it part of the costs for Warp prism.
You WILL get storm, you WILL get a robo, this is nothing new. If anything you are paying 100/100 for the tech and 200 for each warp prison.
And no, the way hellions are used today are drastically different from how it was used just few months ago. Even players are experimenting new builds, with the most recent thorzain showcase his viking/banshees/hellion/raven style against mech play.
There is no point of argue with people thats so set on calling the race stale and weak without wanting to try new style of play. Actually alot of people here reminds me of early zerg, just crying and repel any new ideas.
WP is not useful early and mid game, but I believe it to be a potent unit for late game uses where either clutch storms or harassing their 4th/5th base will win you the game
|
I'd really, really like to see some kind of viable harass unit, but I guess we'll have to wait until HoTS to get that.
On August 12 2011 12:56 redbrain wrote:.
I am a troll!
Well I'm glad we settled that.
|
On August 12 2011 11:44 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:35 Kajarn wrote:
1. Abuse Chronoboost. The great Korean Terrans Mule every 50 energy, and Zerg spit every 25. Why shouldn't Protoss do it, even on 3 bases. Zerg and Terran do it on 3 bases.
2. Abuse Warp Gate "Map Hacks." Actively place pylons in strategic places around the map. Imagine a pylon placed behind the 1-1-1 Contain which allowed you to cut off reinforcements and then crush it by attacking from two sides?
3. React to the opponents aggression. Is he constantly dropping and poking at my army? Ok I'll do the same with pylons/Warp Prisms OR Is he passively macroing? Ok, I build to my Death-ball while expanding.
4. Figure out the 1-1-1 Timing. Be prepared.
5. Go back to old school 3 Gate 1 Robo Busts to mix it up and punish greedy low rax Bio expands.
All these are theoretical and only involve cleaning up or refining your gameplay.
1. top protoss players use chronoboost to the full potential. lol 2. protoss doesnt have zerglings. gateway units are slow and weak in low numbers, and therefor suck at taking out terran reinforcements. just because something works out for one race doesnt mean every race can do it. different units, different strategies. 3. protoss units are terrible for drop purpose. you can compare it to terran medievac drops 4. people know the timing very well. people are prepared. people tried every possible build and unit composition but everything dies to the tank banshee raven marine combo. if you are smart, you'd figure out why. 5. Terran learned how to prepare and deal with it. i find it funny that you think that the protoss players who play this game 8-10 hours a day didnt try this stuff already. people have experimented with the warp prism for months but came to the conclusion that its just not effective in most situations because protoss dont have good harass units.
2. Stalkers might not be lings, but they can still slow the trickle of marines, tanks and bashees to support the 1-1-1. Or atleast force the terran to wait for a full cycle to reinforce.
3. Who said they had to be as good as medivacs? What you want a warp prism to do heal shields? 4 Zealots are far scarier than 8 lings when droped. They still force Zerg to make/have units and Terran to respond.
4. If everything dies to Marine, Tank and Bashee, why isn't that Terrans Core unit comp? Clearly Bio > Marine, Tank, Banshee. Its just Tanks and Banshees get around Force Field early game. Make less sentries and Tech to Immortal in the 9 minutes before the 1-1-1 hits.
The 1-1-1 and marine, tank, banshee is apparently God. I feel it just crushes the protoss with 6 sentries, 2 stalkers and 1 zealot who laughs at Bio pressure with Force Fields/Gaurdian Shield.
Blink Stalkers are a pretty good mid-game army vs Zerg. Archon/Zealot/Templar against Terran.
Note: I do feel Ghosts should go back to 150/150.
|
On August 12 2011 13:51 Kajarn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:44 quiet noise wrote:On August 12 2011 11:35 Kajarn wrote:
1. Abuse Chronoboost. The great Korean Terrans Mule every 50 energy, and Zerg spit every 25. Why shouldn't Protoss do it, even on 3 bases. Zerg and Terran do it on 3 bases.
2. Abuse Warp Gate "Map Hacks." Actively place pylons in strategic places around the map. Imagine a pylon placed behind the 1-1-1 Contain which allowed you to cut off reinforcements and then crush it by attacking from two sides?
3. React to the opponents aggression. Is he constantly dropping and poking at my army? Ok I'll do the same with pylons/Warp Prisms OR Is he passively macroing? Ok, I build to my Death-ball while expanding.
4. Figure out the 1-1-1 Timing. Be prepared.
5. Go back to old school 3 Gate 1 Robo Busts to mix it up and punish greedy low rax Bio expands.
All these are theoretical and only involve cleaning up or refining your gameplay.
1. top protoss players use chronoboost to the full potential. lol 2. protoss doesnt have zerglings. gateway units are slow and weak in low numbers, and therefor suck at taking out terran reinforcements. just because something works out for one race doesnt mean every race can do it. different units, different strategies. 3. protoss units are terrible for drop purpose. you can compare it to terran medievac drops 4. people know the timing very well. people are prepared. people tried every possible build and unit composition but everything dies to the tank banshee raven marine combo. if you are smart, you'd figure out why. 5. Terran learned how to prepare and deal with it. i find it funny that you think that the protoss players who play this game 8-10 hours a day didnt try this stuff already. people have experimented with the warp prism for months but came to the conclusion that its just not effective in most situations because protoss dont have good harass units. 2. Stalkers might not be lings, but they can still slow the trickle of marines, tanks and bashees to support the 1-1-1. Or atleast force the terran to wait for a full cycle to reinforce. 3. Who said they had to be as good as medivacs? What you want a warp prism to do heal shields? 4 Zealots are far scarier than 8 lings when droped. They still force Zerg to make/have units and Terran to respond. 4. If everything dies to Marine, Tank and Bashee, why isn't that Terrans Core unit comp? Clearly Bio > Marine, Tank, Banshee. Its just Tanks and Banshees get around Force Field early game. Make less sentries and Tech to Immortal in the 9 minutes before the 1-1-1 hits. The 1-1-1 and marine, tank, banshee is apparently God. I feel it just crushes the protoss with 6 sentries, 2 stalkers and 1 zealot who laughs at Bio pressure with Force Fields/Gaurdian Shield. Blink Stalkers are a pretty good mid-game army vs Zerg. Archon/Zealot/Templar against Terran. Note: I do feel Ghosts should go back to 150/150.
2. tanks outrange stalkers and outdps stalkers, banshees RAPE stalkers. If it was pure marine it'd be fairly easy to deal with with pure stalker, but unfortunately, if you get more than 4 stalkers or so, you'll just die because stalkers melt.
3. Without charge a zealot drop will kill exactly zero workers. With charge you might kill 2-3. 8 lings will still kill more workers more consistently than 4 zealots.
4. You don't play protoss, because people do make immortals. In fact, they make whatever the hell they can because even cutting workers a minute in advance for units they don't hold.
|
On August 12 2011 13:08 BuddhaMonk wrote:The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence. See: http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/CPVub.pngFor everyone who just says "everything is balanced, just play more creative", how do you reconcile your view with the fact that Blizzard is actively patching balance and that actually does affect the game. If everything was so balanced how come WG research time was nerfed twice since launch to the point where a 4 gate comes a full minute later. Zergs would not be taking quick thirds if the old WG research time was still around.
Exactly. Fungel now does DOUBLE the DPS to unarmored and 260% more DPS to amorded. I don't think people understand how little tweaks can DRASTICALLY shift this game. Make storm 1 sec, i.e. double DPS and protoss would never lose late game.
Protoss has had a series of "small nerfs" since MC was on top and 50/50 win rates with Terran and was crushing zerg. They went too far though.
Nerfs to WG so you're a whole round of units late to defend all ins or pressure FEs.
Nerfs to VR so VR is largely ineffective at early pressure.
|
On August 12 2011 14:07 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:51 Kajarn wrote:On August 12 2011 11:44 quiet noise wrote:On August 12 2011 11:35 Kajarn wrote:
1. Abuse Chronoboost. The great Korean Terrans Mule every 50 energy, and Zerg spit every 25. Why shouldn't Protoss do it, even on 3 bases. Zerg and Terran do it on 3 bases.
2. Abuse Warp Gate "Map Hacks." Actively place pylons in strategic places around the map. Imagine a pylon placed behind the 1-1-1 Contain which allowed you to cut off reinforcements and then crush it by attacking from two sides?
3. React to the opponents aggression. Is he constantly dropping and poking at my army? Ok I'll do the same with pylons/Warp Prisms OR Is he passively macroing? Ok, I build to my Death-ball while expanding.
4. Figure out the 1-1-1 Timing. Be prepared.
5. Go back to old school 3 Gate 1 Robo Busts to mix it up and punish greedy low rax Bio expands.
All these are theoretical and only involve cleaning up or refining your gameplay.
1. top protoss players use chronoboost to the full potential. lol 2. protoss doesnt have zerglings. gateway units are slow and weak in low numbers, and therefor suck at taking out terran reinforcements. just because something works out for one race doesnt mean every race can do it. different units, different strategies. 3. protoss units are terrible for drop purpose. you can compare it to terran medievac drops 4. people know the timing very well. people are prepared. people tried every possible build and unit composition but everything dies to the tank banshee raven marine combo. if you are smart, you'd figure out why. 5. Terran learned how to prepare and deal with it. i find it funny that you think that the protoss players who play this game 8-10 hours a day didnt try this stuff already. people have experimented with the warp prism for months but came to the conclusion that its just not effective in most situations because protoss dont have good harass units. 2. Stalkers might not be lings, but they can still slow the trickle of marines, tanks and bashees to support the 1-1-1. Or atleast force the terran to wait for a full cycle to reinforce. 3. Who said they had to be as good as medivacs? What you want a warp prism to do heal shields? 4 Zealots are far scarier than 8 lings when droped. They still force Zerg to make/have units and Terran to respond. 4. If everything dies to Marine, Tank and Bashee, why isn't that Terrans Core unit comp? Clearly Bio > Marine, Tank, Banshee. Its just Tanks and Banshees get around Force Field early game. Make less sentries and Tech to Immortal in the 9 minutes before the 1-1-1 hits. The 1-1-1 and marine, tank, banshee is apparently God. I feel it just crushes the protoss with 6 sentries, 2 stalkers and 1 zealot who laughs at Bio pressure with Force Fields/Gaurdian Shield. Blink Stalkers are a pretty good mid-game army vs Zerg. Archon/Zealot/Templar against Terran. Note: I do feel Ghosts should go back to 150/150. 2. tanks outrange stalkers and outdps stalkers, banshees RAPE stalkers. If it was pure marine it'd be fairly easy to deal with with pure stalker, but unfortunately, if you get more than 4 stalkers or so, you'll just die because stalkers melt. 3. Without charge a zealot drop will kill exactly zero workers. With charge you might kill 2-3. 8 lings will still kill more workers more consistently than 4 zealots. 4. You don't play protoss, because people do make immortals. In fact, they make whatever the hell they can because even cutting workers a minute in advance for units they don't hold.
2. Where does it say make pure stalker? Using the mobile stalker to cut off reincforcements was my point.
3. I guess dropping anything other than templar is useless.
4. How about trying something other than immortals to hold it off? Like Pheonix or Zealot Charge?
|
You want to know what the main problem with. 1-1-1 allin is?
It's too versatile of a build. Let's say MC plays Puma 10 times and Puma is told "every game go 1-1-1" and MC gets told "Puma is going 1-1-1 every game"
Even in this scenario MC would still lose a few games. There is no direct blind counter, build order win against 1-1-1. So please stop with all this talk of innovation. 1-1-1 is too good against every current Protoss build order.
|
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote:
sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
I will agree that late game, warp prism is more viable than early/mid game and its possible. However, due to the fact that its basically made of glass and 2 marines could kill it in 5 seconds as well as queens killing it quickly makes it less cost efficient, especially if there are templar inside it.
JYP did show a good use of the warp prism against dongraegu, however its not like he could have done that consistently each game. A single spore would be enough to kill the warp prism quickly, basically abandoning the templar.
You also speak of how the warp prism is faster than workers, so basically you're saying to storm 2 times inside the mineral line, load them up again and then storm another time or 2 to kill the workers? Ya...3-4 storms is totally worth it compared to 8 marines right? This also means that you have less storms with your main army which if it is engaging their army are pretty necessary.
Also for PvZ drops, like others have said if they even see any type of DT tech, they drop a spine or 2 as well as a spore, both of which would defend from a zealot drop and the warp prism itself. The auto-targetting onto the queen also would affect it compared to marine drops where the range allows for them to just attack the workers. Another thing about HT drops against Z are that by the time we tech that high, they would have enough drones and econ to re-saturate immediately and that isn't the problem with PvZ, its pressuring early on to stop the quick droning, not killing the drones later on in the game when the Zerg has a massive economy.
Also what others have said is that the cost effectiveness of the drops aren't the same as Terran drops or Zerg drops, where you can damage both tech and the econ due to high attack speed and movement speed. Terran drops with marines can also just auto unload, not paying attention to the drop while microing a battle and do a good amount of damage even if its lost for what it cost whereas a Protoss drop of HT would require us to move our attention away from the battle front to cast storms and load up again to not lose the drop when Protoss micro is already so necessary and important.
I'm not necessarily saying that we as a race can't use warp prisms at all, but its just completely different from the type of harassment that is available to the other races. People have definitely tried to use warp prisms, even moreso now, however like many of the other Protoss users have said they are definitely not as cost efficient as the drops of other races as well as making them less viable.
People will still try to use them, however the degree of success is generally much lower than drops from Terran and bane drops which can occur across multiple bases at the same time to divide attention, shift queuing the drops onto the mineral line.
|
On August 12 2011 14:16 Kajarn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 14:07 Amui wrote:On August 12 2011 13:51 Kajarn wrote:On August 12 2011 11:44 quiet noise wrote:On August 12 2011 11:35 Kajarn wrote:
1. Abuse Chronoboost. The great Korean Terrans Mule every 50 energy, and Zerg spit every 25. Why shouldn't Protoss do it, even on 3 bases. Zerg and Terran do it on 3 bases.
2. Abuse Warp Gate "Map Hacks." Actively place pylons in strategic places around the map. Imagine a pylon placed behind the 1-1-1 Contain which allowed you to cut off reinforcements and then crush it by attacking from two sides?
3. React to the opponents aggression. Is he constantly dropping and poking at my army? Ok I'll do the same with pylons/Warp Prisms OR Is he passively macroing? Ok, I build to my Death-ball while expanding.
4. Figure out the 1-1-1 Timing. Be prepared.
5. Go back to old school 3 Gate 1 Robo Busts to mix it up and punish greedy low rax Bio expands.
All these are theoretical and only involve cleaning up or refining your gameplay.
1. top protoss players use chronoboost to the full potential. lol 2. protoss doesnt have zerglings. gateway units are slow and weak in low numbers, and therefor suck at taking out terran reinforcements. just because something works out for one race doesnt mean every race can do it. different units, different strategies. 3. protoss units are terrible for drop purpose. you can compare it to terran medievac drops 4. people know the timing very well. people are prepared. people tried every possible build and unit composition but everything dies to the tank banshee raven marine combo. if you are smart, you'd figure out why. 5. Terran learned how to prepare and deal with it. i find it funny that you think that the protoss players who play this game 8-10 hours a day didnt try this stuff already. people have experimented with the warp prism for months but came to the conclusion that its just not effective in most situations because protoss dont have good harass units. 2. Stalkers might not be lings, but they can still slow the trickle of marines, tanks and bashees to support the 1-1-1. Or atleast force the terran to wait for a full cycle to reinforce. 3. Who said they had to be as good as medivacs? What you want a warp prism to do heal shields? 4 Zealots are far scarier than 8 lings when droped. They still force Zerg to make/have units and Terran to respond. 4. If everything dies to Marine, Tank and Bashee, why isn't that Terrans Core unit comp? Clearly Bio > Marine, Tank, Banshee. Its just Tanks and Banshees get around Force Field early game. Make less sentries and Tech to Immortal in the 9 minutes before the 1-1-1 hits. The 1-1-1 and marine, tank, banshee is apparently God. I feel it just crushes the protoss with 6 sentries, 2 stalkers and 1 zealot who laughs at Bio pressure with Force Fields/Gaurdian Shield. Blink Stalkers are a pretty good mid-game army vs Zerg. Archon/Zealot/Templar against Terran. Note: I do feel Ghosts should go back to 150/150. 2. tanks outrange stalkers and outdps stalkers, banshees RAPE stalkers. If it was pure marine it'd be fairly easy to deal with with pure stalker, but unfortunately, if you get more than 4 stalkers or so, you'll just die because stalkers melt. 3. Without charge a zealot drop will kill exactly zero workers. With charge you might kill 2-3. 8 lings will still kill more workers more consistently than 4 zealots. 4. You don't play protoss, because people do make immortals. In fact, they make whatever the hell they can because even cutting workers a minute in advance for units they don't hold. 2. Where does it say make pure stalker? Using the mobile stalker to cut off reincforcements was my point. 3. I guess dropping anything other than templar is useless. 4. How about trying something other than immortals to hold it off? Like Pheonix or Zealot Charge?
Using a few lings to cut off reinforcements is great. Using stalkers to do it is idiotic because stalkers cost 125/50 whereas 1 ling costs 25 minerals. If you're investing in stalkers, you need serious return for them given their cost, which is why if you look at all the most successful responses to the 1-1-1 build the recommendation is to build as few stalkers as possible depending on how man banshees are around.
|
On August 12 2011 14:17 CellTech wrote:
You want to know what the main problem with. 1-1-1 allin is?
It's too versatile of a build. Let's say MC plays Puma 10 times and Puma is told "every game go 1-1-1" and MC gets told "Puma is going 1-1-1 every game"
Even in this scenario MC would still lose a few games. There is no direct blind counter, build order win against 1-1-1. So please stop with all this talk of innovation. 1-1-1 is too good against every current Protoss build order.
That's why it's a good build? Anything usable shouldn't have a "counter", all solid play should have the chance to work against other solid play given the better player wins.
|
On August 12 2011 14:20 kenkaze291 wrote:
JYP did show a good use of the warp prism against dongraegu, however its not like he could have done that consistently each game. A single spore would be enough to kill the warp prism quickly, basically abandoning the templar.
Storm drops are supposed to be a suicide mission, in a sense. More often then not in BW you'd lose the shuttle, and that's why you'd storm drop rather than reaver drop. Besides, you know what percent of banelings zerg can recover from a drop? I'll give you 3 guesses...
|
Whitera tries WP. It;s hilarious. They usually get killed before dropping expensive cargo. Not to mention most things protoss can afford to drop are not worth dropping. Also protoss has DTs and warp in which are far more effective hence they are used. I find it funny so many poster think these pros who practice 12 hours a day are so clueless as opposed to them.
|
On August 12 2011 14:24 Soluhwin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 14:20 kenkaze291 wrote:
JYP did show a good use of the warp prism against dongraegu, however its not like he could have done that consistently each game. A single spore would be enough to kill the warp prism quickly, basically abandoning the templar.
Storm drops are supposed to be a suicide mission, in a sense. More often then not in BW you'd lose the shuttle, and that's why you'd storm drop rather than reaver drop. Besides, you know what percent of banelings zerg can recover from a drop? I'll give you 3 guesses...
I'd highly disagree that the cost of 4 banelings is equal to the cost of 3 templar...also he was talking about using the speed of the warp prism to micro, meaning he meant that they should be able to survive.
|
On August 12 2011 14:31 kenkaze291 wrote:
I'd highly disagree that the cost of 4 banelings is equal to the cost of 3 templar
Okay, how about this: races are different for a reason, if you don't like it then switch.
I'd still disagree agree with the notion that protoss have tried everything. Remember around GSL season one? Zergs basically sounded like this: "IMBA IMBA terran mech! Will the mighty gods please save us!?!?!?... oh... I guess mutas are pretty good" Back then thors looked like the most broken thing in the world, no one would have listened to you if you told them that mutalisks were the solution to a unit that clearly was made to counter them. Turns out that a strategy game has more depth, you can't theory craft your way out of a pit.
|
On August 12 2011 14:39 Soluhwin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 14:31 kenkaze291 wrote:
I'd highly disagree that the cost of 4 banelings is equal to the cost of 3 templar Okay, how about this: races are different for a reason, if you don't like it then switch. I'd still disagree agree with the notion that protoss have tried everything. Remember around GSL season one? Zergs basically sounded like this: "IMBA IMBA terran mech! Will the mighty gods please save us!?!?!?... oh... I guess mutas are pretty good" Back then thors looked like the most broken thing in the world, no one would have listened to you if you told them that mutalisks were the solution to a unit that clearly was made to counter them. Turns out that a strategy game has more depth, you can't theory craft your way out of a pit.
What u got wrong was magic box was not discovered 1 thor can litterally kill 7-8 mutas. So thors do hard counter mass mutas but now days that is no longer the case.
|
On August 12 2011 14:39 Soluhwin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 14:31 kenkaze291 wrote:
I'd highly disagree that the cost of 4 banelings is equal to the cost of 3 templar Okay, how about this: races are different for a reason, if you don't like it then switch. I'd still disagree agree with the notion that protoss have tried everything. Remember around GSL season one? Zergs basically sounded like this: "IMBA IMBA terran mech! Will the mighty gods please save us!?!?!?... oh... I guess mutas are pretty good" Back then thors looked like the most broken thing in the world, no one would have listened to you if you told them that mutalisks were the solution to a unit that clearly was made to counter them. Turns out that a strategy game has more depth, you can't theory craft your way out of a pit.
Except that was almost a year ago, and the metagame has been evolved a lot more since then. However, I agree that there's still room for innovation - it's just that your example involving the state of the metagame over a year ago irked me due to the sheer difference in time since then.
I also have trouble taking you seriously when you actually used "You don't recover banelings from a drop" as an argument for why a different drop is supposed to be a suicide mission. Seriously? Banelings are the only suicide unit in the game. You are using a unit that is by nature supposed to be a suicide unit as an argument for it being okay for non-Baneling units to also be used suicidally in drops. That makes my head hurt.
|
On August 12 2011 14:25 tdt wrote:
Whitera tries WP. It;s hilarious. They usually get killed before dropping expensive cargo. Not to mention most things protoss can afford to drop are not worth dropping. Also protoss has DTs and warp in which are far more effective hence they are used. I find it funny so many poster think these pros who practice 12 hours a day are so clueless as opposed to them.
Whitera mostly use WP in some sort of gimmicky all in builds. I have yet to see him actually use it strategically.
Just because pros don't use it, doesn't mean the unit is not viable. It just means it has yet to be proficiently used or practiced. Pros don't use hellions like their life depends on it too just a month or so ago, and hellions were thought as mediocre and used solely for early games, and we see this notion has drastically changed. Same can be said for ravens.
Alot of times protoss loses big battle because their high templar gets EMPed, we've seen it or been there. Could you not see the value of protecting your HT from EMP and capable of landing valuable and precise storm due to the fast speed of those warp prism??
When not in decisive battles. 2 consecutive storms on a mineral line will kill everything if the opponents don't pull away the workers the very second storm lands. Do you think every player is perfect and can react that quickly? Even if they do, the worker will escape with about 5% hp and a second storm will finish the escaping workers assuming you can micro your warp prism effectively.
Also alot of people complains about losing their warp prism dying to marines or turrents. If you have the speed upgrade, which is only 100/100, then very unlikely your prism will die unless you mess up your micro
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
