On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
Banelings, Roaches, and every single Terran unit are ranged and/or can catch workers. Not only that, Banelings fucking explode. You only need two to fuck up a mineral line. Zealots, HT's, and DT's are all slower than workers and aren't ranged.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism. It isn't an significant damage, especially when gas is most likely your limiting resources.
Warp Prism becomes the fastest moving unit with upgrade, so if you have good micro you will have minimal loses when doing drop/pickup with it.
consider the alternative of being able to land great storms and protecting HT from EMP and snipe, in addition to being able to drop and pressure their econ, i'll say its worth it.
Yes, you would say it's worth it. Now weigh your word against all of the professional players + the host of normal players that are probably better than you. The fact is that the Warp Prism is just entirely too squishy and takes too much valuable time from Robo production until rather late in the game.
I think it would be cool if they made CB more effective late-game. Maybe decreasing its energy requirement once the game passes a certain time, or increasing its longevity by a few seconds. I don't even know if that would even help that much at all, but its something.
I don't like resorting to balance changes though, there just needs to be more creative protoss players out there. Players like Sage or even MC could come out with some brilliant new army comp or strat that finally breaks toss' out of their slump.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
but it costs so many resources for protoss to support any kind of drop play that if it doesn't deal significant damage the army ball will be noticeably smaller and in danger of being run over. compared to terran or zerg if their drop play doesn't work their army isn't significantly weakened because of it.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism. It isn't an significant damage, especially when gas is most likely your limiting resources.
Warp Prism becomes the fastest moving unit with upgrade, so if you have good micro you will have minimal loses when doing drop/pickup with it.
consider the alternative of being able to land great storms and protecting HT from EMP and snipe, in addition to being able to drop and pressure their econ, i'll say its worth it.
Warp Prism is great late game, but I think it's risky mid game.
You're investing into the Robo tech route just to get the Warp Prism which makes your army ridiculously small and Zealots in the mineral line is not even close to being as effective as MM.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
Banelings, Roaches, and every single Terran unit are ranged and/or can catch workers. Not only that, Banelings fucking explode. You only need two to fuck up a mineral line. Zealots, HT's, and DT's are all slower than workers and aren't ranged.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism. It isn't an significant damage, especially when gas is most likely your limiting resources.
Warp Prism becomes the fastest moving unit with upgrade, so if you have good micro you will have minimal loses when doing drop/pickup with it.
consider the alternative of being able to land great storms and protecting HT from EMP and snipe, in addition to being able to drop and pressure their econ, i'll say its worth it.
Yes, you would say it's worth it. Now weigh your word against all of the professional players + the host of normal players that are probably better than you. The fact is that the Warp Prism is just entirely too squishy and takes too much valuable time from Robo production until rather late in the game.
are you one of the top protoss in the world?
just because the unit is underused, doesn't mean its not amazing. Hellion is such a gamebreaking unit yet it only RECENTLY been utilize for all matchup (less for protoss).
Let me rephrase it again. Warp prism, fastest unit. Drones will not be able to outrun HT, assuming player even spotted it first and reacted it in time.
Speed bling are faster than workers, but assuming if that slow ass overlord even reach them in the first place. WP can zoom in from afar and drop at the edge of the mineral line and storm before you realize. Its about the same except you have no risk of doing such drop
I still think observers should just come out of the nexus but require a cybercore to make. You could even increase the build time for them as well. Now if you want to scout you have to build an observer and therefore cut down on the amount of probes you will have out. If you don't care to scout, keep pumping probes. Hell, I'd be happy with an observer taking 60 seconds, as long as I'm not forced into robo every game I want to scout.
On August 12 2011 12:37 Tezzick wrote: I think it would be cool if they made CB more effective late-game. Maybe decreasing its energy requirement once the game passes a certain time, or increasing its longevity by a few seconds. I don't even know if that would even help that much at all, but its something.
I don't like resorting to balance changes though, there just needs to be more creative protoss players out there. Players like Sage or even MC could come out with some brilliant new army comp or strat that finally breaks toss' out of their slump.
Either way, thats my 2 cents lol.
Can you and everyone else shut up about toss needs to be more creative? What do you want toss players to do? Create a magical new unit that makes us safe in the early game, holds off the 1-1-1 all in and allows us to do something other than tech to collo or HT to stay alive in the mid to late game?
If you don't play toss, and you don't understand how rigid the race is, then shut up. Seriously - anyone who says that toss are just not being creative and should come up with a "brilliant unit comp" to break the slump is just a moron. There are X amount of units, and X amount of compositions. It's not like there are infinite combinations and toss are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs instead of finding the best solutions.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
but it costs so many resources for protoss to support any kind of drop play that if it doesn't deal significant damage the army ball will be noticeably smaller and in danger of being run over. compared to terran or zerg if their drop play doesn't work their army isn't significantly weakened because of it.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism.
Well, for a fast prism: Robotics Facility: 200/100 Warp Prism: 200 Robotics Bay: 200/200 Gravitic Drives: 100/100
And then for the expensive harass options: Twilight Council: 150/100 Templar Archives: 150/200 and/or Dark Shrine: 100/250
Its just way too expensive and takes too long. And if you can somehow survive in getting speedprism, HT, DT, and gates you HAVE to do damage. You invest too much. It might work but eventually Z will throw pre-emptive spores and spines at all their bases. Harass shuts down. They'll figure out timings where we're teching too fast. We're back to square one.
I'm all for thinking of different ways of playing but you make it sound like protoss tech is so readily available and accessible.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
Banelings, Roaches, and every single Terran unit are ranged and/or can catch workers. Not only that, Banelings fucking explode. You only need two to fuck up a mineral line. Zealots, HT's, and DT's are all slower than workers and aren't ranged.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism. It isn't an significant damage, especially when gas is most likely your limiting resources.
Warp Prism becomes the fastest moving unit with upgrade, so if you have good micro you will have minimal loses when doing drop/pickup with it.
consider the alternative of being able to land great storms and protecting HT from EMP and snipe, in addition to being able to drop and pressure their econ, i'll say its worth it.
Yes, you would say it's worth it. Now weigh your word against all of the professional players + the host of normal players that are probably better than you. The fact is that the Warp Prism is just entirely too squishy and takes too much valuable time from Robo production until rather late in the game.
are you one of the top protoss in the world?
just because the unit is underused, doesn't mean its not amazing. Hellion is such a gamebreaking unit yet it only RECENTLY been utilize for all matchup (less for protoss).
Let me rephrase it again. Warp prism, fastest unit. Drones will not be able to outrun HT, assuming player even spotted it first and reacted it in time.
Speed bling are faster than workers, but assuming if that slow ass overlord even reach them in the first place. WP can zoom in from afar and drop at the edge of the mineral line and storm before you realize. Its about the same except you have no risk of doing such drop
Late game warp prism play is nothing new. People have been doing it. Especially high temp drops/dt warpin.The problem is early game and mid game toss play and warp prism just isn't that great no matter how you think about it.
Mid game toss is extremely weak in straight up fight already. The most common tactic of a terran player is to spread toss out using drops then crush toss's smaller main army and win. Warp prism does not help. In fact if you go warp prism not only will you have wasted precious robo time(less obs, colossus or immortal), but also you are spreading yourself thin trying to use units to snipe workers/buildings"none dt/ht gateway units are actually terrible at both".
You have to understand the what the each race is trying to accomplish before making a suggestion. Tossing out a unit that toss don't usually work with and say be creative with that does not help.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
Banelings, Roaches, and every single Terran unit are ranged and/or can catch workers. Not only that, Banelings fucking explode. You only need two to fuck up a mineral line. Zealots, HT's, and DT's are all slower than workers and aren't ranged.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism. It isn't an significant damage, especially when gas is most likely your limiting resources.
Warp Prism becomes the fastest moving unit with upgrade, so if you have good micro you will have minimal loses when doing drop/pickup with it.
consider the alternative of being able to land great storms and protecting HT from EMP and snipe, in addition to being able to drop and pressure their econ, i'll say its worth it.
Yes, you would say it's worth it. Now weigh your word against all of the professional players + the host of normal players that are probably better than you. The fact is that the Warp Prism is just entirely too squishy and takes too much valuable time from Robo production until rather late in the game.
are you one of the top protoss in the world?
just because the unit is underused, doesn't mean its not amazing. Hellion is such a gamebreaking unit yet it only RECENTLY been utilize for all matchup (less for protoss).
Let me rephrase it again. Warp prism, fastest unit. Drones will not be able to outrun HT, assuming player even spotted it first and reacted it in time.
Speed bling are faster than workers, but assuming if that slow ass overlord even reach them in the first place. WP can zoom in from afar and drop at the edge of the mineral line and storm before you realize. Its about the same except you have no risk of doing such drop
There have been numerous builds using blue flame helions. The recent "change" was the timing and the addition of the elevator+marine support. In TvT its just the general shifting to mech is leading to higher uses of helions as mineral dump. Even in TvT wasn't there a build completely built around the use of BFH and banshees?
Warp Prism has been used and attempted. Even when successfully executed most protoss pros agree its weak and the risk far far outweighs the reward. The higher the risk, the higher the reward should be. In the case of warp prisms this simply isn't true. Not to mention lack of synergy. T use medivacs for healing in addition to drops. Z use OL which is their supply (double edged sword but again for the risk there is a large reward e.g. using 10 OL is a huge risk but the reward of getting that many roaches or lings into a toss main when army out in natural = huge). Warp Prism only acts as a pylon for warping in. This is pretty good but again the lack of synergy basically leads to the use of 1 Warp Prism instead of multiple as it'll just eat into your army for little gain.
Warp Prism needs to be changed and/or toss need to be tweaked to have a harass unit and reduce the power of 200/200 Toss deathball. I'm sure most toss would gladly give up some "OP"ness to have the flexibility of harassing effectively somehow.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
but it costs so many resources for protoss to support any kind of drop play that if it doesn't deal significant damage the army ball will be noticeably smaller and in danger of being run over. compared to terran or zerg if their drop play doesn't work their army isn't significantly weakened because of it.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism.
Well, for a fast prism: Robotics Facility: 200/100 Warp Prism: 200 Robotics Bay: 200/200 Gravitic Drives: 100/100
And then for the expensive harass options: Twilight Council: 150/100 Templar Archives: 150/200 and/or Dark Shrine: 100/250
Its just way too expensive and takes too long. And if you can somehow survive in getting speedprism, HT, DT, and gates you HAVE to do damage. You invest too much. It might work but eventually Z will throw pre-emptive spores and spines at all their bases. Harass shuts down. They'll figure out timings where we're teching too fast. We're back to square one.
I'm all for thinking of different ways of playing but you make it sound like protoss tech is so readily available and accessible.
On August 12 2011 12:26 iky43210 wrote: sure, by that logic baneling drop will never work because your opponent can always react in time right?
or why even bother dropping marines/marauders at all?
fact is no one can react perfectly, especially when there are battles going on or bases to manage. You literally have to pull your drones away the very second storm lands in order for the drones to survive. warp prism with upgrade moves extremely fast that you can bring HT to middle of the battle or their mineral lines in blink of an eye. Consider the range on storm and speed of warp prism, its not as easy as you think it is to dodge them.
4 zealots also kill off a hatchery decently fast. And the best part is your zealots/HT are almost GUARANTEE to live because they won't have mutas. you are not losing anything by dropping except putting out pressure and harassing. One mistake will cost them greatly
Protoss complaining about EMP? warp prism and storm will land you perfect storm in bio army (it outrun stim marines). You can even add forcefield in that mix if you will.
I'm not saying its easy to pull off, but there are so much potential in warp prism that are just unused. Being close minded and going after the same deathball limits your strategy and makes you predictable.
I think most of you are underestimating how fast warp prism moves with upgrade. Drones will not be able to outrun HT and good chance they won't react/spot it in time.
but it costs so many resources for protoss to support any kind of drop play that if it doesn't deal significant damage the army ball will be noticeably smaller and in danger of being run over. compared to terran or zerg if their drop play doesn't work their army isn't significantly weakened because of it.
300/100 is all you need for warp prism.
Well, for a fast prism: Robotics Facility: 200/100 Warp Prism: 200 Robotics Bay: 200/200 Gravitic Drives: 100/100
And then for the expensive harass options: Twilight Council: 150/100 Templar Archives: 150/200 and/or Dark Shrine: 100/250
Its just way too expensive and takes too long. And if you can somehow survive in getting speedprism, HT, DT, and gates you HAVE to do damage. You invest too much. It might work but eventually Z will throw pre-emptive spores and spines at all their bases. Harass shuts down. They'll figure out timings where we're teching too fast. We're back to square one.
I'm all for thinking of different ways of playing but you make it sound like protoss tech is so readily available and accessible.
this. im done discussing the issue with icky.
he's not even smart enough to suggest storm drops would be efficient with sentry in the mix to forcefield the workers in, as any decent player will react fast enough for minuscule losses from storm drops.
storm drop in bw was literally about 10,000x more effective
its not just a balance thing as well. drops make for fun viewing, therefore hopefully in next expansion we'll see a reaver style unit specifically for cost effective dropping for protoss.
just because the unit is underused, doesn't mean its not amazing. Hellion is such a gamebreaking unit yet it only RECENTLY been utilize for all matchup (less for protoss).
Let me rephrase it again. Warp prism, fastest unit. Drones will not be able to outrun HT, assuming player even spotted it first and reacted it in time.
Speed bling are faster than workers, but assuming if that slow ass overlord even reach them in the first place. WP can zoom in from afar and drop at the edge of the mineral line and storm before you realize. Its about the same except you have no risk of doing such drop
Honestly, I think Terran players have explored their race the least of any group of players. Ghosts were obviously good before their cost buff. Terrans won with simple mmm play and ghosts were just too expensive/hard to use. Toss adapted and Terrans had to use it.
BFH have been so obviously good since they were first released. It wasn't unknown to other races, we all complained a little about it. Terrans started having problems with zergs and they found a way to incorporate such an obviously good skill.
Ravens will eventually join this crowd of discovered units for Terran.
The terran experience is no way analgous to the toss and zerg experience. Terran has faced less developmental pressure and is less fleshed out than Toss. Hell They don't need to be with their bundle of timings. I appreciate the sentiment but it is an incorrect way to understand the current toss predicament.
I still belive protoss players are _NOT_ playing the game properly. Recently i've discovered the power of Mech in TvP playing it similar to BW and beat a few masters players now with it so its made it legit in my mind that its a viable style.
Lets look at BW its an extremely difficult RTS and its increibly figured out to the smallest details of BO, so you can actually win games by a BO very easily.
SC2 is increibly random still and most people have it in their head the game is lets make blob X and fight blob Y and see what happens so basically every game is a coin flip. The game is drastically starting to change in my opinion with the meta-game shift for mech in TvT and its because i guess there is a larger % of terran players figuring out the game in more detail.
There has yet to be one protoss player who wins games in a fair passive macro style. If you look at OGS MC's play even from GSL open season 3 he was just winning by abusing void sentry timming all in's. And really no one had a good answer for what he was doing for a very long time and this continued for a protoss dominance abusing FF against blob armies. And the silly collosus timmings.
And i think the answer lies that protoss players dont tech properly nor do they expand enough. Think about modern ladder style PvT vs the usualy bio play. Most protoss players with 2 gate robo expand or 1 gate robo expand into 3 or 4 gate robo collosus and attack. So think about this.
Gateways units zealot sentry stalker Teir 1. going stright to collosus teir 3. So when they loose this army they loose the game because their pretty much all in because of the sheer investment into that tech which they cant replace. So they try for their 3rd base and try for HT for a magical defense using Psi storm and they snowball out of the game.
Why dont protoss players play passivly. All of protoss units are natually very cost efficent against anything. So why not try for more bases. go for a 1 or 2 gate FE into twilight and HT build, for archons, they really really havent been explored enough about how amazing they are, then you can secure a 3rd easily and replace losses easily and upgrade properly and you can tech properly instead of these awkward jumps in play which most protoss do and no one seems to try for a style like that. They all are so excited about warp gate timmings and proxying their pylon in the sneakiest of places.
The reason everyone rages at protoss players on ladder is because of all thse cute'sy moves they use and abuse to win game
The only protoss players inovating in this area in my opinion are Tyler or Artosis.
This brings me to my last point players like Idra, Tyler, Ret, White-RA, Sen really won't begin to dominate sc2 in my opinion untill this game becomes less random. IF you look at their BW games they were extremely talented so many sc2 players havent played BW but its stupidly difficult to be good at BW. And those were some of the top foreigners.
And if you look at TSL3 idra vs cruncher so many people dont understand the rage idra had its because idra really really is that much better than him the only reason people like naniwa, Huk or cruncher are even well known in my opinion is because this game is so random. In a few years time they might keep up but i really dont think they will be on top what so ever..
If no one understands this post its because they havent played BW, and understood the finer details of a 1 rax expand or siege expand etc... and how detailed they really are as builds into the mid game etc and what timmings you need to hit and why and when to spot them.
There is absolutly nothing like this in sc2 yet and untill it is sc2 is going to remain very much about random blop vs blop. But mech TvT is finally begining to look like a game about execution and macro as well as just raw ability at RTS. rather than cheesy timmings which for the most part is all protoss players have been doing for ages.
I think a few changes made by blizz in the beta if reverted would help a lot.
1: Immortal build time increased (implemented as 3 immo timing was unstoppable on steppes) 2. Forge build time increase (cannon rushes in lower leagues?) 3. Sentry attack reduced from 8 to 6 (players building lots of sentries, small maps and chokes) 4. Void ray attack range decreases from 7 to 6 (Could siege terran natural on steppes and rines couldn't hit back) 5. Zealot build time increase (Zealot rushes on small/2player maps hard for zerg to hold)
Many balance changes were made cause of the small maps which for the most part is no longer the case with our map pool (not taking the new shitty maps into consideration). I think if these changes were reverted toss would have an easier time in the early game and against 1-1-1. Maybe its too simple of a fix but I for one have never liked these changes from the get go and their reasons for implementing them. Discuss?
On August 12 2011 12:56 redbrain wrote: I still belive protoss players are _NOT_ playing the game properly. Recently i've discovered the power of Mech in TvP playing it similar to BW and beat a few masters players now with it so its made it legit in my mind that its a viable style.
Lets look at BW its an extremely difficult RTS and its increibly figured out to the smallest details of BO, so you can actually win games by a BO very easily.
SC2 is increibly random still and most people have it in their head the game is lets make blob X and fight blob Y and see what happens so basically every game is a coin flip. The game is drastically starting to change in my opinion with the meta-game shift for mech in TvT and its because i guess there is a larger % of terran players figuring out the game in more detail.
There has yet to be one protoss player who wins games in a fair passive macro style. If you look at OGS MC's play even from GSL open season 3 he was just winning by abusing void sentry timming all in's. And really no one had a good answer for what he was doing for a very long time and this continued for a protoss dominance abusing FF against blob armies. And the silly collosus timmings.
And i think the answer lies that protoss players dont tech properly nor do they expand enough. Think about modern ladder style PvT vs the usualy bio play. Most protoss players with 2 gate robo expand or 1 gate robo expand into 3 or 4 gate robo collosus and attack. So think about this.
Gateways units zealot sentry stalker Teir 1. going stright to collosus teir 3. So when they loose this army they loose the game because their pretty much all in because of the sheer investment into that tech which they cant replace. So they try for their 3rd base and try for HT for a magical defense using Psi storm and they snowball out of the game.
Why dont protoss players play passivly. All of protoss units are natually very cost efficent against anything. So why not try for more bases. go for a 1 or 2 gate FE into twilight and HT build.
The only protoss players inovating in this area in my opinion are Tyler or Artosis.
This brings me to my last point players like Idra, Tyler, Ret, White-RA, Sen really won't begin to dominate sc2 in my opinion untill this game becomes less random. IF you look at their BW games they were extremely talented so many sc2 players havent played BW but its stupidly difficult to be good at BW. And those were some of the top foreigners.
And if you look at TSL3 idra vs cruncher so many people dont understand the rage idra had its because idra really really is that much better than him the only reason people like naniwa, Huk or cruncher are even well known in my opinion is because this game is so random. In a few years time they might keep up but i really dont think they will be on top what so ever..
If no one understands this post its because they havent played BW, and understood the finer details of a 1 rax expand or siege expand etc... and how detailed they really are as builds into the mid game etc and what timmings you need to hit and why and when to spot them.
There is absolutly nothing like this in sc2 yet and untill it is sc2 is going to remain very much about random blop vs blop. But mech TvT is finally begining to look like a game about execution and macro as well as just raw ability at RTS. rather than cheesy timmings which for the most part is all protoss players have been doing for ages.
Passive play for PvT is already standard.
Passive play for PvZ is impossible. The problem is if you don't pressure zerg. Zerg will max when you are at 120 supply which means as supply effective as you can be you will still die.
Also you must realize other than colossus and temps. Toss units are the least cost effective. They are very supply effective which are two completely different things.
Also don't bring idra adn how he is "really really" better than "x" toss player. It is not smart in a toss dominated thread.
protoss player's need to expand their range of styles jyp's warp prisms gave me nerd chills. ~ Protoss players have mostly been doing the same thing for longer than any other race because it was working just look at zerg we explored soo many different styles because we were struggling now we have variety i think protoss players need to explore more styles like that sentry drop from JYP was amazing protoss players need to start evolving just like the other races did and they'll start winning again
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
For everyone who just says "everything is balanced, just play more creative", how do you reconcile your view with the fact that Blizzard is actively patching balance and that actually does affect the game. If everything was so balanced how come WG research time was nerfed twice since launch to the point where a 4 gate comes a full minute later. Zergs would not be taking quick thirds if the old WG research time was still around.
On August 12 2011 12:56 redbrain wrote: I still belive protoss players are _NOT_ playing the game properly. Recently i've discovered the power of Mech in TvP playing it similar to BW and beat a few masters players now with it so its made it legit in my mind that its a viable style.
Lets look at BW its an extremely difficult RTS and its increibly figured out to the smallest details of BO, so you can actually win games by a BO very easily.
SC2 is increibly random still and most people have it in their head the game is lets make blob X and fight blob Y and see what happens so basically every game is a coin flip. The game is drastically starting to change in my opinion with the meta-game shift for mech in TvT and its because i guess there is a larger % of terran players figuring out the game in more detail.
There has yet to be one protoss player who wins games in a fair passive macro style. If you look at OGS MC's play even from GSL open season 3 he was just winning by abusing void sentry timming all in's. And really no one had a good answer for what he was doing for a very long time and this continued for a protoss dominance abusing FF against blob armies. And the silly collosus timmings.
And i think the answer lies that protoss players dont tech properly nor do they expand enough. Think about modern ladder style PvT vs the usualy bio play. Most protoss players with 2 gate robo expand or 1 gate robo expand into 3 or 4 gate robo collosus and attack. So think about this.
Gateways units zealot sentry stalker Teir 1. going stright to collosus teir 3. So when they loose this army they loose the game because their pretty much all in because of the sheer investment into that tech which they cant replace. So they try for their 3rd base and try for HT for a magical defense using Psi storm and they snowball out of the game.
Why dont protoss players play passivly. All of protoss units are natually very cost efficent against anything. So why not try for more bases. go for a 1 or 2 gate FE into twilight and HT build, for archons, they really really havent been explored enough about how amazing they are, then you can secure a 3rd easily and replace losses easily and upgrade properly and you can tech properly instead of these awkward jumps in play which most protoss do and no one seems to try for a style like that. They all are so excited about warp gate timmings and proxying their pylon in the sneakiest of places.
The reason everyone rages at protoss players on ladder is because of all thse cute'sy moves they use and abuse to win game
The only protoss players inovating in this area in my opinion are Tyler or Artosis.
This brings me to my last point players like Idra, Tyler, Ret, White-RA, Sen really won't begin to dominate sc2 in my opinion untill this game becomes less random. IF you look at their BW games they were extremely talented so many sc2 players havent played BW but its stupidly difficult to be good at BW. And those were some of the top foreigners.
And if you look at TSL3 idra vs cruncher so many people dont understand the rage idra had its because idra really really is that much better than him the only reason people like naniwa, Huk or cruncher are even well known in my opinion is because this game is so random. In a few years time they might keep up but i really dont think they will be on top what so ever..
If no one understands this post its because they havent played BW, and understood the finer details of a 1 rax expand or siege expand etc... and how detailed they really are as builds into the mid game etc and what timmings you need to hit and why and when to spot them.
There is absolutly nothing like this in sc2 yet and untill it is sc2 is going to remain very much about random blop vs blop. But mech TvT is finally begining to look like a game about execution and macro as well as just raw ability at RTS. rather than cheesy timmings which for the most part is all protoss players have been doing for ages.
facepalm. Did you just say Artosis and Tyler are our hopes for innovative protoss? Oh man. They basically do cute stuff that works in some ladder games, try it in a tournament, and just lose.
Please explain how we are going to expand faster than we already do. A quick third against zerg can't be defended, it's too spread out for how few units you have and they'll just mass roach/ling you and crush you because your army is significantly weaker after building the expo + additional probes. Taking a quick third against a terran is just begging for a two base timing push to steamroll you. There are reasons that pro players take their expos at certain timings, it's not "oh, well, guess I should probably expand now or something".
Also lol at cheesy timings. Protoss gets crushed by 1-1-1, what kind of "cheesy timing" makes us lose to that? Protoss gets outmacro'd by zerg easily being able to play greedy, defend any pressure we can put against them, and take an extremely fast third. What kind of "cheesy timing" makes us lose to that/
multiprong drop by protoss is not viable b/c once Zerg and Terran scout colossus, they'll have vikings and corruptors anyway, and warprism is like paper plane. Too expensive and fragile. I lost my warprism to easily many times compare to hellions and marines drops while playing Terran.
EPT
